Round 1 Pool 3: Profontaine vs. Anub

  1. Anub
    Anub
    I like your argument about the salamander, but keep in mind one important thing: the puppets are controlled by chakra. So I don't even need to argue how strong wood is, because without the chakra strings, it is still wood! The same way Neji managed to escape the previous two captures (links provided earlier in the debate), he can do the same, but simply target the chakra strings, without which the puppets can't function. And I would even go as far as to argue that the puppets are stronger when infused with Kankuro's chakra.

    His battle vs Kidomaru: he did an amazing job. Simple as that. Any other shinobi from his team would have died against Kidomaru and Neji was able to win, despite the injuries, against an opponent at least twice as strong as him. His vacuum palm may not reach 50m in range, but it does, as you said, reach 10-20m, even though I'd say it can stretch further, depending on how much chakra he wants to release. But keep in mind that Neji is FAST. The link you provided hoping to prove that Kidomaru was within a 50m distance is not as "clear" as you have it to be. In fact, I've got proof that the range was significantly longer: this, THIS and most importantly THIS, which clearly states that he will control the arrow UNTIL it reaches his 50m range. Here's a few more: this and this. Clearly more than 50m, there's no disagreeing.

    Further on, the link you provided against Neji still isn't really valid for two main reasons: 1. that was part I Neji and if I were to pick on part I kankuro, I would have considered this debate severely one-sided; 2. The spiders came all at once, as part of a jutsu, while the puppets are controled by strings, by one person only and his movements need to coincide with the puppets'.

    Last paragraph: Neji had his byakugan active throughout the whole day and fought against armies of zetsu, while kankuro didn't have to activate any chakra-consuming dojutsu or ability. He would simply fight when enemies arrived. Also, Neji was part of the main battle-field, while Kankuro was on a sneak-attack mission. And Kidomaru fell from a 10-20m tree from a distance clearly longer than 50m, for which I have provided solid manga proof.
  2. Prefontaine
    Prefontaine
    Neji might be able to see everything going on around him but he won't be able to do anything about the sheer number and abilities of Kankuro's puppets. And he obviously has extremely fast hand-movement, I don't know where you're getting that from. He is a puppet master, that's what they do. (Also here). Kankuro clearly has enough speed to keep up with and defeat Neji.

    As for his fight against Kimomaru, as far as I see, Neji was able to defeat some spiders with his Gentle Fist, but ultimately was hit multiple times in the back and shoulder (his shoulder btw, is not in his blindspot) with daggers. And thank you for pointing out that although he was able to see everything, he was overwhelmed and severely hurt! He didn't die because Kimomaru was overconfident and Neji had a reason to fight, they said so themselves; but that's besides the point. Goodness, you're arguing that? BOTH have "progressed a lot since then".

    IF you want to start talking about intelligence, explain to me the fact that Kankuro has ended up the Leader of the Surprise Attack Division. Leader. Kakashi is one of the smartest characters in Naruto, usually in the top 3 with Minato and Itachi, he is a leader of his own Division, albeit a bigger one. Regardless, don't question Kankuro's abilities and intelligence by trying to compare him to Kakashi. I could just as well say Neji isn't as intelligent as Kakashi either.
  3. Prefontaine
    Prefontaine
    Salamander is made out of iron, which is much, much stronger than wood.

    Kudos on your next point, that does indeed show that he was farther than 50m, although I would not think by much because Kimomaru can see Neji through the trees. Like I said Neji is fast, but he has to be in CQ, and Kankuro is just as fast as him with his puppets.

    Like I said, they have both progressed at least just as much as each other, they are both Jounin in part II. Again, yes Neji is fast, but it is nothing like Naruto or Minato or the Raikage's speed.
  4. Floydical
    Floydical
    This debate will close on the 7th around the same time it was posted if no extension is requested.
  5. Anub
    Anub
    Neji doesn't need to do much about Kankuro's puppets because he's got an impenetrable defense if it comes to it, but he can also attack. And knowing that his opponent is a puppet user, that is the most likely scenario that Neji will take.

    Puppet masters aren't all as fast as Sasori and even Sasori was matched in speed by an old woman (at some point even Sakura). Neji is a taijutsu expert so he needs to be fast.

    Intelligence argument: being a leader of a group does not make you the smartest. Gaara outranks both Kakashi and Shikamaru, yet they're both arguably smarter than him. Also Darui hasn't really shined as far as intelligence goes. The explanation would be that they wanted to put someone from every village in charge as well as they could have.

    Good point with salamander, but my opinion still stands: if the puppet is not controlled, it does not function and there's nothing it can do to Neji.

    You mentioned the data books in the beginning of the argument. If you still consider that argument to be valid, then you cannot disagree with the fact that Kankuro has 2.5 in speed, while Neji has 4 in speed. Also, his hand movement speed is greatly increased by his Eight Triagrams: 64 Palms jutsu and his movement speed, as you have seen in part I, was top notch even as he was badly injured and drained of chakra.

    Me and Prefontaine agreed to conclude the argument here. I wish him luck and thank you for the debate. It was fun.
  6. Floydical
    Floydical
    Due to debater request, this match has been officially closed for judging.
  7. Floydical
    Floydical
    Profontaine, I liked that you mentioned the puppets being somewhat immune to Neji's gentile fist, but you cannot say with confidence that this renders the technique useless in the match. Clearly Neji would not focus on the puppets but rather Kankuro himself when given the opportunity, so underestimating gentile fist like that leaves you very open for good counter-arguments. I like your defense about Salamander having a very strong defense that Neji might not be able to break out of, but you basically posted a false statement when you said it withstood Diedara's clay bomb. The puppet is clearly not shown again after the explosion and we can see pieces of it on the ground. Clearly the puppet did not actually withstand the blast and I feel that a focused attack by neji could possibly break or destroy a part of the puppet, allowing him to escape if captured. I like your point about Kankuro's speed with Black Ant, but that does not really coincide with Salamander, considering its size. Considering the fact that Salamander's durability is in question, I don't think we can even consider Black Ant as being able to contain Neji. Not only that, but I am not sure if we can conclude that Kankuro can kill an opponent contained in Salamander as fast as he can with Black Ant, since we have never seen that in the manga.

    Anub, I like the fact that you talked about Neji's speed but him covering 300+ meters in 1-2 seconds? I believe that is a real stretch of the truth and really it does not benefit you to make a claim like that. To be honest, I'd say that range was more like 100m because why would Kidomaru bother staying much more than 50m away when he knows about Neji's range? In the end, this debate over the actual range is quite pointless, but none-the-less I feel that you significantly overestimated Neji in this regard. I like your points about how Neji performed in his battle with Kidomaru, but you seem to completely bypass the fact that he was hit multiple times during that match, honestly a fatal number of times. Kankuro might not have Kidomaru's range, but clearly almost all his attacks are lethal and thus if he even lands one significant blow, Neji would be in a bad position. I feel you benefited from this point not being more debated.

    Again, I think one of the keys to this fight was the overall durability of, most notably, Salamander and the possibility that Neji could break out of it. Other important points was the overall liklihood that Kankuro could land at least one solid blow, since that might ultimately lead to Neji's death. The points about wood vs. iron were very important, because it has only been confirmed that Salamander's added cloak is made of iron, not the entire puppet. But despite this possible ambiguity, the fact remains that it was destroyed by Deidara's clay bomb, plain and simple.

    In the end, I feel that you both did a good job of proving your combatant's strength and talked them up really good, even if you didn't always mean to. Profontaine, I really liked your method of capturing and killing Neji, but I feel that it utilized a few too many elements and ultimately I did not see it as a battle-ending scenario. I feel that Anub's overall argument regarding Neji's focus and the limited number of possible attacks from Kankuro's puppets, when compared to Kidomaru, benefited his argument that Neji could possibly pull through. Lastly, I feel that Profontaine's posts about charging in at the beginning and claiming that Salamander could withstand Deidara's clay bombs were some of his biggest flaws in the debate, which I feel ultimately decided this close and well-fought match.

    My vote goes to Anub on this one, good luck to both of you in your second round 1 matches.
  8. ~Uzumaki~
    ~Uzumaki~
    First of all, I'd just like to say that Neji has expanded his radius beyond 50m, he saw up to 800 metres in part 2 when they were looking for the paper tags of Pain's Five Seals Barrier. Weird that no one noticed that, Just saying....>_>

    Prefontaine, I was really into your use of the puppets,
    mentioning the light chakra shield and taking note of the fact that Kankuro possibly has the Father and Mother puppets now, how you established that cutting off chakra threads with Jyuuken is pointless since Kankuro can just re-attach them and how the internal damage oriented gentle fist wouldn't do much to puppets. You made a very awesome argument for Kankuro's victory.

    Anub, you noted a speed feat that seemed to have been completely overlooked, that is, Neji closing a 50+ meter distance in the time it took Kidomaru to fall even with injuries and less speed than his part 2 self, you noted Neji's ability to use the Vacuum palm which was faster than even Kisame could react and the full body blow to break Kankuro's puppet. Also, I credit you for stressing how he can't be surprised due to his Byakugan. A good argument as well.

    Hmmm...I wasn't really a fan of your tactic of closing the 50 metre distance on Neji, puppeteers usually hide and for good reason since they're not good in physical combat and Anub called you on it and mentioned how Neji is dangerously fast, has a nearly perfect means of seeing your every attack(the Byakugan) and has mid range techniques(Hakke Kusho and the Full Body Blow) and a perfect defense(the Hakkeshou Kaiten) Also, Kankuro hasn't used the Father and Mother puppets, we don't even know if he has seen them.

    Anub, I think you underestimated Kankuro's speed with his puppets just a bit. He did react in time to smother one of Deidara's explosions as well as use his mechanical light shield on two puppets in an instant among other feats.

    My vote goes to Anub.
  9. Joki
    Joki
    It's obvious both of you did really good, I'm sure the other 2 judges already pointed out what you both did well and whatnot. So I'll try not to be too negative, but we all know your posts are good so I don't need to focus on that.

    Profontaine, for your first post, even though you listed the abilities you could have actually tried to prove why he's so skilled in X or how he'd actually use all of those techs to kill Neji. It was really just a waste of what could have been an important whole post in the end since you're only limited to 15 total, even if you did fix it later. I already know what Kankuro can do, I want to see how YOU prove Kankuro>Neji, and you're supposed to convince me of that, so listing his jutsu won't do anything.Your 2nd post and on you rectified it by doing it right. though

    You said Kankuro was superior in stamina/strength and more in your 2nd post which didn't have any support for it at all, I'd liked to have seen proof for it and a lot of things. Although you ended up posting a lot more scans in your second post to make up for your list in the 1st one. In your 3rd post you basically wrote a scenario, considering an exact scenario will basically never happen and it probably hurt you by writing out a fanfiction. Although you did post scans there and show how Kankuro beats Neji so it's still ok.

    Anub's 1st set of posts: Like I said I want more posting on how Neji actually beats Kankuro, you posted a lot of scans too but the problem of course lies in the rebuttals in which said scans could or could not actually be countered. I had a couple problems with your posts like trying to refute Kankuro's individual hype with the entire hyuga clan isn't the best idea but regardless, it's not that important part of your post.All in all they're good as expected.

    For the rebuttals, I could go through and point out every point in every post but I doubt it matters at this point especially given the standings. There were a lot of things to bring up that I'm really surprised weren't brought up. They could have helped either side immensely if they were used, like I noticed a lack of scorpion which is one of the few reasons I would consider Kankuro superior although we haven't seen much from it.

    I was unconvinced of full body blow or similar actually doing anything to the puppets and was skeptical, I thought an extremely valid tactic for Neji would be rotation instead of that. but Prefontaine was extraordinary in countering that with Scorpion's wire binding Neji restricting rotation completely and plenty more. I used to think Neji won or even stomped hard to be honest but Pre did a really good job at countering most or all of the points in the rebuttals. His 1st post held strong when Anub's imo just didn't convince me of much at all. And I would have liked a lot more scans to back up stats(from both of you), although I can't hold either of you to that much considering they don't have all that much screentime.

    If you had problems feel free to argue or if I missed something important, but I don't really think it matters since the past 2 voted for Anub. My vote goes to Prefontaine, his counters were great imo and he covered basically everything important, and like I said above his first post stayed reinforced and strong through the entire debate. To be honest I'm actually surprised Pre didn't sweep the votes no diff I thought he did really good but looks like the judges had other plans, it was a good match either way though guys.
  10. Prefontaine
    Prefontaine
    Joki-

    I guess I just interpreted this->
    "Introduction Argument Rule- Once your match has begun, and the judges have decided who goes first, that person has 24hours to produce their opening argument covering their characters advantages, disadvantages , abilities that will be of use in the fight, intelligene, Speed and stanima and the opponents knowledge of their jutsu... It should follow a similar layout to this"

    as meaning that I the debater needed to inform you the judges of what my ninja could do.

    Thanks for the input from all three judges, hopefully I can implement everything you all said better in my next debate :D
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