Round 1 Pool 1: Piratefish vs. Kidgamer65

  1. Floydical
    Floydical
    Deidara (no restrictions) vs. Kakuzu(created by Uzumaki16)

    Piratefish: Deidara

    Kidgame65: Kakuzu


    Restrictions: There are no significant restrictions. Deidara's clay supply should not be considered a factor.

    Knowledge: Full. They each know every technique the other is capable of based on the manga

    Starting Distance: 50 metres

    Location: Where Deidara fought Sasuke, a large clearing with adjacent forest.

    Intent: Kill


    To clarify some things from my postings, you are limited to 15 post total that will be counted for scoring. From your 16th post on, you will not get credit for anything you stated. Keep all responses to a maximum of 20 lines, if you notice your response is more than that after posting it, please edit it as soon as you notice. If you have any posts at the end of the debate with more than 20 lines, you will get a DQ. This obviously does not count images you post or links you post to show evidence from the manga, only your lines of text. If you apply titles of some sort to clarify sections of your post this will not be counted either, again, only lines of text count. If you have any specific questions about the match, message me or Uzumaki and we will clarify it in this thread. Again, do not post in this thread until you are posting an argument, any and all posts you make count toward the 15 total.

    Either one of you can post first. Begin!
  2. Piratefish
    Piratefish
    Hope it'll be a good debate!

    Taijutsu: Deidara'll know not to engage in taijutsu, not that taijutsu is part of his general tactics. In fact, Deidara has shown himself capable of high-level evasion against close-range attacks:


    Gaara's Shukaku Arms are VERY similar, in form and function, to Kakuzu's Jiongu threads.

    Deidara is a very adaptable shinobi, capable of adjusting to opponents significantly faster than him:




    Any attempt by Kakuzu to attack using close-range attacks like Domu and Jiongu would be pointless, Deidara would easily get out of range.

    Small sidenote on Genjutsu:
    Neither combatant is known for ANY aptitude in this field, and in any case Deidara has this:

    Genjutsu is a moot point in this battle.
  3. Piratefish
    Piratefish
    Ninjutsu Part 1: C1 and C2: This is a battle between ninjutsu-specialists, their respective aptitudes in the field will be the deciding factor. Deidara, however, has the edge in scale, power and versatility.

    Here is a regular (not even C2) attack from Deidara:


    The attack is too fast for Initial-Shippuden Sasuke to dodge, who is comparable to Kakuzu in terms of speed, if not superior. This attack may not be powerful enough to damage Kakuzu through his Earth Spear, but it is more than enough to destroy a Mask.

    C1 bombs are very varied in form and function, ranging from airborne (various birds and an owl), "regular" bombs (insects, spiders), underground mines (snakes, centipedes), aquatic bombs (fish, jellyfish) and homing bombs (bats). As Deidara has no limits on his clay supply in this engagement, ANY battlefield will soon be filled to bursting with explosives. Keep in mind that this holds true for ANY of Deidara's techniques, seeing the sun blotted out due to C2 Dragons or the ground crawling with Clay Clones is a possibility, if Deidara has enough time. ANY pause in fighting will only serve to let Deidara fill more of the battleground with deadly, deadly clay.

    Deidara's C2 Dragon:


    Is a versatile and potent ninjutsu, capable of creating large amounts of mines:


    And Guided Missiles:



    These two techniques make Kakuzu deploying his Masks en masse (a staple tactic of his) a risky proposition at best. Guided Missiles could take the Masks one-by-one, while his mines (if released in the air by the Dragon) could saturate the battlefield enough to take them all out at once. The two techniques, in combination, will take out one or two masks at least before Kakuzu realizes his mistake and completes reabsorption of the Masks.

    The C2 Dragon can also create Lumpy Dragon Bombs (no name has been given for the technique, I made one up):


    The Lumpy Dragons are capable of completely destroying a Second-Stage Curse-Seal Wing, and seem capable of damaging even Domu if Kakuzu is caught in the epicentre of the blast.
  4. Piratefish
    Piratefish
    Ninjutsu Part 2: C3, C4, C0 and auxillary techniques: C3 is a concentrated and VERY powerful explosive of enormous size. The blast radius is so large it's near-impossible to dodge:
    (That's a large fraction of Sunagakure about to be reduced to smithereens)

    And the needed amount of defensive sand needed to block it DEFINITELY raises the question of whether Domu is enough to withstand it:


    Gaara, the same Jinchuuriki capable of channeling Shukaku in Part 1, is noticeably fatigued:


    As Kakuzu was never stated to have comparable chakra to a Jincuuriki or Bijuu, I am forced to assume C3 would overwhelm him, if only though entering his nostrils, mouth and ears (and other orifices), places the diamond-hard skin afforded by Domu would NOT cover.


    C4 is another path to victory, and one too large to be shut down by Kakuzu's Raiton Mask:


    Kakuzu has no way to detect the spread of Garuda's microscopic bombs. He seems unlikely to shock himself with a Raiton accidentally at a crucial moment, and he'd have no other way of determining that as the correct way to survive.

    C0 can be countered with precise Raiton, but ONLY if Kakuzu still has his Lightning Heart, which is unlikely at that point.

    Deidara also posesses the ability to make and switch with Clay Clones near-instantly:

    At some point during the pummeling he receives from Naruto, he switches with a Clay Clone. Naruto doesn't notice, neither does Kakashi.

    Deidara can hide underground, far enough that he would have survived a blast that would have taken down Team Gai, Kakashi, Naruto, Chiyo AND Sakura:


    He also manages to fool Neji's Byakugan with his Clone/Mole Hiding. With this combination properly executed he'd be able to dodge any of Kakuzu's demonstrated attacks, while leaving his opponent thinking himself victorious. Or, he could just simply evade with the Doton tech, if speed is of the essence.
  5. Piratefish
    Piratefish
    Countering Kakuzu's Ninjutsu: Kakuzu posesses a varied arsenal of Elemental Ninjutsu. He can use Earth, Fire, Air and Lightning. Presumably he can use Water too (the first Heart) but as he's never actually displayed the ability it can be discounted. First, lets take a look at the various elements' effect on Deidara's Explosive Clay:

    Lightning would deactivate the Clay, rendering it useless.

    Fire would forcibly detonate the Clay, rendering it ineffective if at long enough range, or MORE effective if close by. Similar effect to Shikamaru flinging his lighter at Hidan's Explosive-Note-wrapped body.

    Wind would cut and sever the Clay (similar to Naruto's Rasengan), but would neither detonate it nor deactivate it. Any technique disabled by Wind would fall to the ground without further direction, but could still detonate at Deidara's command. It would become a mine.

    Earth would crush and break the Clay, but as Kakuzu hasn't displayed any ability similar to Oonoki's Petrification (dampening its explosive properties), it would still be able to detonate should Deidara wish it. Similar effect to wind.


    Deidara could fairly easily dodge the blasts themselves, as he proved against Gaara:


    Here he also shows his adaptability, using faster, more agile bombs and strikes directly at Gaara. He could use similar bombs to attack AROUND Kakuzu's Elemental Blasts.

    Shukaku's Arms are of a slightly smaller scale than Kakuzu's largest attacks, but they're guided and there are several of them in the air at any given time. Deidara can evade even seemingly hopeless situations, such as this:


    Which further demonstrates his proficiency in the art of evasion. If he feels pressured, he can retreat to a safer height in any case.

    The C2 Dragon itself is surprisingly mobile, capable of dodging Sasuke's Chidori Spear and surprise shruiken:


    All in all, Deidara is more than capable of evading Kakuzu's attacks.

    Sidenote on Stamina: Deidara doesn't have the highest amount of the stuff, but he has NEVER let ANY injury slow him down:


  6. Piratefish
    Piratefish
    Kakuzu's (Ineffective) Counters: As I explained in my previous post, Kakuzu's Elemental attacks have different effects on Deidara's Clay. The only truly effective one is Raiton (Katon is effective at long range), and Kakuzu's ability with Raiton ninjutsu is just not enough to carry the day.




    Raiton: Here Kakashi is able to intercept and counter Gian without too much trouble. Deidara, both airborne, more mobile and at a longer distance away, would have little trouble evading the attack himself. His larger bombs may be at risk though, specifically C3 and C0 (C4 is too large, C1 and C2 too numerous or mobile). C3, however, can be detonated the moment before Gian would impact, rendering it less effective. If Kakuzu still has his Lightning Heart at the time Deidara uses C0, he can counter it. Unless Deidara uses C0's MASSIVE range advantage to his benefit and attacks from a distance closer to C0's 10KM limit. However, Kakuzu still posessing the Lightning Heart is unlikely at this point.

    Kakuzu's Monster Forms: Kakuzu can enter into somewhat more eccentric bodily arrangements, enabling him to fight better at close range, use Elemental Combinations, and fly. However, these forms come with a MAJOR disadvantage, the same one that plagues the Masks when floating free:



    Jiongu CAN NOT use Domu! Kakuzu's greatest defense against Deidara's incessant bombing is removed if he enters into his advanced forms or allows his Masks to roam free, essentially limiting him to his regular mode of fighting.

    Kakuzu can't follow Deidara into the air. He can't reach Deidara with his attacks. He can't even USE Elemental Combinations and expect his Hearts to remain undestroyed. He can't disable C4. He can't dodge or intercept C2. He can't block C3.

    All in all, Kakuzu just can't win.
  7. KidGamer65
    KidGamer65
    Kakuzu could possibly defuse C3 with his Raiton before it detonates.

    They can jump pretty high which will allow them to hit Deidara with Raiton.


    If he drops C3, His lightning release can defuse it by hitting it before it drops to the ground detonates.

    This can also be used as a starting tactic, since Kakuzu knows everything about Deidara's attacks.

    If he manages to hit him, I would assume his dragon would be unable to fly since it is made of the same clay as the explosives.

    Deidara doesn't normally start off with C4 or C0, he would use it when he is pushed far enough, so if Kakuzu can defeat him before then he could win but if C4 is laucnhed, Deidara will win.
  8. KidGamer65
    KidGamer65
    OK I'm back...

    Deidara's C1 can be either blocked by Kakuzu's Earth Spear, similar to how the paper bomb was deflected..and Kakuzu took no damage at all.


    Or he can use his Raiton techniques to nullify any incoming C1 bombs.



    Deidara's C2 Dragon: The mines can't be put underground without Tobi's help. Deidara could do it since he also possess the Hiding like a Mole Jutsu Deidara could attempt it, but that would be a horrible tactic, as Kakuzu can destroy his bird while he is under, and Kakuzu can easily intercept him.

    If he manages to get the mines set up, Kakuzu could use his Fire and Lightning element to make it rain, causing the ground to get wet. Then Raiton could be used to electrify the ground nullifying the landmines.

    The Dragon's guided missiles will be also be stopped by Raiton, or he could knock them away using Fuuton. (Which has a pretty wide and long range).


    The Dragon itself: As Kakuzu has knowledge on the dragon..the initiative would be to take it out with Raiton, as soon as it comes out. Kakuzu knows that if Deidara gets into the air, it could be a very big problem for him.

    As we see here, Deidara needed to use an explosive to hold Sasuke off before he could stop him from taking off into the air.


    Kakuzu, who has various long range jutsu (like the ones mentioned above) can succeed in what Sasuke failed in with a combo attack of Wind+Fire along with Raiton to take care of any incoming bombs. (As we know, wind amplifies the Fire element making it stronger).



    Incoming bombs that aren't as powerful as C3 can be blown up by Kakuzu's long range hairs while he is in Jiongu form.
  9. KidGamer65
    KidGamer65
    C3: This one will be tricky, but Deidara's fighting style shows him going in order from C1 to C4. If Kakuzu can pull off what is mentioned above, he can finish him before C3 ever comes out. (And I'm sure he won't use C3 when he can't fly since he will be blown up along with the enemy.

    So if Kakuzu gets him when he tries C2, he can very well win this.

    "The C2 Dragon itself is surprisingly mobile, capable of dodging Sasuke's Chidori Spear and surprise shruiken:"

    The dragon didn't dodge the Chidori Spear, it simply didn't reach as Deidara said, it only stretches up to 5 m.

    "The Lumpy Dragons are capable of completely destroying a Second-Stage Curse-Seal Wing, and seem capable of damaging even Domu if Kakuzu is caught in the epicentre of the blast."

    I am pretty sure that Domu is more durable than Sasuke's wing...I don't even think that the wing adds any kind of Durability to Sasuke. (And despite the size of the blast, it only destroyed one of Sasuke's wings).

    When hardening his body with Domu, he tanked Choji's attack and received no damage at all.




    Most of what you mentioned can be prevented as long as Kakuzu stops Deidara from taking flight and based on Deidara's fighting style (C1 to C0) Kakuzu can pull this off.
  10. Piratefish
    Piratefish
    With a 50-meter starting distance, Deidara will have little trouble getting airborne. He was able to evade Gaara comfortably at something like 2 meters, and several attempts at getting close by Sasuke were foiled with ease. Kakuzu IS a mid-long range focused ninja, but he's still not fast enough to disable Deidara's Clay at this distance before takeoff.



    As you can see, Gian is fired at around 15 metres away, 20 at most. Kakashi has time to charge two Raikiri and move to intercept the attack. With more than twice the amount of distance Kakashi had, Deidara will evade Kakuzu's attempts to prevent his takeoff without trouble.

    C3 has only ever been demonstrated to explode after Deidara orders a detonation:

    As such, he can wait until the VERY LAST INSTANT before ordering the detonation, leaving C3 slightly less effective than planned, perhaps, but due to the impressive explosion-radius it would still take out any and all Masks within a very large range.

    Even the weakest shown C1 bombs are lethal:


    And with a direct hit on a Mask, that Mask will be destroyed. A glancing hit would be enough for a C2 bomb, and simply staying close enough to the explosion radius (large!) would be enough for a C3. C4 and C0 simply bypass any attempt Kakuzu has at defending himself, the Masks themselves are simply obliterated. And even C1 bombs can be agile enough to land a direct hit on a Mask:
  11. Piratefish
    Piratefish
    Information on the opposing combatants is more beneficial for Deidara than for Kakuzu, as he'll now be aware of the type and scope of Kakuzu's elemental ninjutsu, elemental combinations, individual mask capabilities and monstrous alternate forms. If he couldn't evade them before (he could have) there's simply no chance he'll be hit now, unless several masks are working together. Which puts them at serious risk. Kakuzu also has intel, but it's less helpful for him. Clay Clone substitutions won't be (as) effective, but a large amount of Deidara's techniques are very difficult to evade or dodge even WITH information. Homing Dragons, homing birds, aerial mine barrages, C4, C3 and especially C0 (try evading THAT without an S/T on your side) mean that even with full intel escaping Deidara is VERY difficult.

    C1 bombs would have little effect on Kakuzu himself, true. They WOULD destroy any Mask they got a solid hit on. Kakuzu's Masks are basically a thin layer of Jiongu surrounding a human heart, not the most explosion-proof thing in existence, and the hearts' precise location is shown through the Masks position. C1 WOULD be an effective distraction if it hit Kakuzu himself though, even if it didn't cause any damage.

    The C2 Dragon can easily be made while already airborne, its slightly slower takeoff-speed won't be a problem. The mines can either be places underground by a Clay Clone, or scattered in large amounts from above. They're sensitive, pressure-detonated explosives, and would explode the instant they fell on something, be it the ground, Kakuzu, or his Masks. As you yourself showed, the Guided Missile Dragons are quite fast, able to divert Sasuke's charge before he'd managed to advance more than a few metres further:


    If he'd gotten close, the Missile would have detonated the mines as well, and as such even the C2 Dragon would have been at risk.

    Lumpy Dragons are fast enough to hit Second-stage Curse Seal Sasuke, and produce a SIZEABLE explosion:

    As this was enough to simply DESTROY 2CS Sasuke's wing, even with what can't be assumed to be a direct hit, it seems more than possible that it cound at least SINGE Kakuzu even through his Earth Spear with a solid hit. And yes, the wing is FAR more durable than Base Sasuke. Curse Seals utilize what's basically a bastardized version of Sage Mode, and Sages are extremely durable, as are CS users:





    Members of the Sound Four being vanquished by direct, physical attacks while CS is active require MASSIVELY strong ones to be defeated:

  12. KidGamer65
    KidGamer65
    Kakuzu's Wind Style and Fire Style have a wide radius of destruction so any incoming C1 bombs would be vaporized by Fire Style or knocked away by Wind Style, or Kakuzu can combine them both together for an increased attack radius and attack power.


    To counter the landmines, Kakuzu can use a lightning+fire combo to make it rain, then he can use his Raiton to electrify the ground, defusing any mines in the area. To counter them from above, his Wind Mask can detach from his body and that will be ready at all times, to use a Fuuton to blow them away from Kakuzu/

    If Deidara is in the air, Kakuzu could pressure his bird with multiple elemental attacks....the main objective would be to hit him, but Kakuzu could also try and get at least one of the wings of the bird. When Sasuke clipped one of the wings, the bird started to fall towards the ground.
    So even if he doesn't land a direct hit, Deidara will be forced to the ground. And Deidara will have to get out his smaller bird like he did vs. Sasuke, but Kakuzu can fire more shots at him, to pressure him and take him out of the air.


    Kakuzu can also use the adjacent forest to his advantage..for exanple, he could hide in the forest so Deidara can't locate him immediately, then he can prepare his combination attack with his masks to try and blow him out of the air.

    The Guided Missiles and any other projectiles except for maybe C3 will be b vaporized/blown away/deactivated via Raiton/Fuuton/Katon.
    It will be fairly easy to hit them, since they will be coming directly at him, and they are coming from a considerable distance away.

    As for C3, well, if Kakuzu retreats into the forest when Deidara takes flight and splits all his masks apart except for the Earth one; he can take cover in the forest to hide himself from Deidara's sight. If Deidara drops a C3 to clear him out along with the forest, the lightning mask can fire a Raiton to disable the bomb, couple this with the Triple attack I mentioned earlier to take him out of the air...he could very well beat him.
  13. Floydical
    Floydical
    This debate will close on the 9th around the same time it was posted if no extension is requested.
  14. Piratefish
    Piratefish
    C1 bombs wouldn't be vaporized by any Katon which hit them, they'd be DETONATED, with the power of the Fire only adding to the ensuing explosion. If the Masks are far enough away, then that's fine. BUT, if they're close enough, the following blast would damage or destroy the Heart as well:


    This, for example, is more than close enough for a crippling/lethal (for a Heart) explosion. Naruto's clones are actually a good example of how close to Kakuzu a few C1 bombs can get, for while they aren't explosive themselves, they are covering for a Rasenshruiken, which is more than potent enough that Kakuzu should want to detonate it as far away from him as possible. Instead, one got right up into touching range. Twice.


    Any moment where Kakuzu's Masks are focused on something other than the bombs Deidara is actively producing is a potentially fatal distraction for them. And even damp earth doesn't conduct electricity very well, so countering mines already placed in the ground will be a VERY lengthy process, involving SCOURING EVERY INCH OF GROUND with bursts of Gian. Chakra-intensive and mostly useless, opening many opportunities for counterattack. There are simply too many mines, when properly spread out, for ANY single technique to deal with:


    Even if his mount is destroyed, Deidara has plenty of time to make a new one before being reduced to fighting on the ground:



    Having an arm crushed, or being pinned to his falling Dragon while flying only BARELY high enough to evade Sasuke's 5 meter range with the Chidori Spear gives Deidara ample time to stay in the air. Not that escaping into the air is any harder for him once he's down there:



    Using surrounding landscape as a defense against Deidara is simply a laughable tactic: ANY bomb, C2 and above, will obliterate any possible hiding place quickly:




    In addition, hiding and planning only gives Deidara time to use C4.


    Guided Missiles may be linear but they are FAST, if Deidara uses them while Kakuzu is focused on something else they could take out a Mask or two.

    C3 can be detonated while in the air, rendering Raiton counterattacks not quite useless but LESS effective, as it will still explode. It will be slightly further away, but with C3's massive range that doesn't really matter. And Deidara is not above using the C3 as a distraction:


    Even a multilayered one. C3 allows Deidara to use his other nasties while Kakuzu is distracted defusing it, leaving him vulnerable to C4 and even precise C2 bombs. Kakuzu has only one Lightning Mask. There are two bombs that MUST be defused in order for him to survive...
  15. KidGamer65
    KidGamer65
    "This, for example, is more than close enough for a crippling/lethal (for a Heart) explosion. Naruto's clones are actually a good example of how close to Kakuzu a few C1 bombs can get, for while they aren't explosive themselves, they are covering for a Rasenshruiken, which is more than potent enough that Kakuzu should want to detonate it as far away from him as possible. Instead, one got right up into touching range. Twice."

    Using clones to see how close the bombs will get is not a good comparison because first of all, the clones are moving human beings that can easily alter their course, and his bombs can't move how Naruto's clones did so that isn't a good comparison.

    "Any moment where Kakuzu's Masks are focused on something other than the bombs Deidara is actively producing is a potentially fatal distraction for them. And even damp earth doesn't conduct electricity very well, so countering mines already placed in the ground will be a VERY lengthy process, involving SCOURING EVERY INCH OF GROUND with bursts of Gian. Chakra-intensive and mostly useless, opening many opportunities for counterattack. There are simply too many mines, when properly spread out, for ANY single technique to deal with:"

    With Kakuzu's masks being able to split from him, Deidara's clone isn't going to get very many bombs into the ground espcially since it will be a very lengthy process.

    "Even if his mount is destroyed, Deidara has plenty of time to make a new one before being reduced to fighting on the ground"

    He won't have plenty of time when another attack is coming right after the first one that knocked him off, against Sasuke, their was a gap between Deidara being pinned onto his bird, and his bird getting hit, if another blast is coming at him shot a few seconds right after the first one, Deidara isn't going to be able to make another mount.


    "Using surrounding landscape as a defense against Deidara is simply a laughable tactic: ANY bomb, C2 and above, will obliterate any possible hiding place quickly"

    Kakuzu has the whole forest to hide himself in and Deidara's bombs (Except C3 and C4) can take him out while he is hiding in there.
    If a C2 Guided Missiles is coming at him, the Raiton Mask can disable it.

    "In addition, hiding and planning only gives Deidara time to use C4.

    As soon as Kakuzu is in the forest, multiple attacks will be coming at him, i'm sure he won't have time to set up C4.


    Guided Missiles may be linear but they are FAST, if Deidara uses them while Kakuzu is focused on something else they could take out a Mask or two.

    C3 can be detonated while in the air, rendering Raiton counterattacks not quite useless but LESS effective, as it will still explode. It will be slightly further away, but with C3's massive range that doesn't really matter. And Deidara is not above using the C3 as a distraction"

    There won't even need to be any planning involved, he just needs to use the forest as cover, not as a hiding place.

    What else could Kakuzu possibly be focused on? And his masks can split from his body so if he isn't paying attention for whatever reason, then his mask will blast it for him.

    "Even a multilayered one. C3 allows Deidara to use his other nasties while Kakuzu is distracted defusing it, leaving him vulnerable to C4 and even precise C2 bombs. Kakuzu has only one Lightning Mask. There are two bombs that MUST be defused in order for him to survive..."

    While Raiton is busy with C3, Fuuton or Katon can take care of C2.

    Kakuzu has knowledge, so he will know what C3 looks like beforehand, and Deidara has to expand the bomb, making ii more visible, then he drops it, When Kakuzu catches sight of it, he can firs his Katon combined with Fuuton at it, once the Katon hits, the bomb will go off, and will kill Deidara.
  16. Piratefish
    Piratefish
    "Using clones to see how close the bombs will get is not a good comparison because first of all, the clones are moving human beings that can easily alter their course, and his bombs can't move how Naruto's clones did so that isn't a good comparison."

    Bombs are FAR faster, appear to be independent to a certain degree, and are EXTREMELY maneuverable. They can FLY, and have MANY more options for dodging than the clones do. If anything, the bombs would be HARDER to avoid:

    Here seen forcing Gaara to use his sand orb to survive.

    "With Kakuzu's masks being able to split from him, Deidara's clone isn't going to get very many bombs into the ground espcially since it will be a very lengthy process."

    No. The clone is underground and thus exempt from most if not all of Kakuzu's attacks (depending on how FAR down it is) and PLACING the mines is a fairly quick and painless process. Deidara has time to fire off two Guided Dragons, and Sasuke one Chidori Spear, before ALL the mines were placed by Tobi. And Deidara's clone, having WAY more experience with such things, would doubtless be quicker.

    "He won't have plenty of time when another attack is coming right after the first one that knocked him off, against Sasuke, their was a gap between Deidara being pinned onto his bird, and his bird getting hit, if another blast is coming at him shot a few seconds right after the first one, Deidara isn't going to be able to make another mount."

    The screenshot you used was a bit odd, from before Deidara was ever hit by the shruiken. Here are some better illustrations:


    And THERE is when Deidara BEGINS to extract himself from the shruiken. He still has plenty of time to make a bird before crashing.

    "Kakuzu has the whole forest to hide himself in and Deidara's bombs (Except C3 and C4) can take him out while he is hiding in there.
    If a C2 Guided Missiles is coming at him, the Raiton Mask can disable it."


    Not witout giving away either his own or the Raiton Mask's position. It would mean the next attack Deidara used (C3 or 4) would be out of reach for a Raiton, and thus match-ending.

    "As soon as Kakuzu is in the forest, multiple attacks will be coming at him, i'm sure he won't have time to set up C4."

    Kakuzu hiding in the forest gives HIM time to attack, but not Deidara. I see. C4 is fairly quick to deploy, S2CS Sasuke was caught in one, when all he had to do to get out was remove his arm from a Clay Clone.

    "There won't even need to be any planning involved, he just needs to use the forest as cover, not as a hiding place.

    What else could Kakuzu possibly be focused on? And his masks can split from his body so if he isn't paying attention for whatever reason, then his mask will blast it for him.
    "

    If he is using cover, it means he is allowing Deidara the offensive. And Deidara relishes in being on the offensive.

    Well, he'd have to choose between focusing on C3 or C4.

    "While Raiton is busy with C3, Fuuton or Katon can take care of C2.

    Kakuzu has knowledge, so he will know what C3 looks like beforehand, and Deidara has to expand the bomb, making ii more visible, then he drops it, When Kakuzu catches sight of it, he can firs his Katon combined with Fuuton at it, once the Katon hits, the bomb will go off, and will kill Deidara."


    If Deidara was at all likely to perish in his own explosions, it would have happened before he was ever approached by Akatsuki. And apply the large-scale destruction of an Elemental Combo to a C3 bomb seems like a bad idea, not least because DEIDARA would have an easier time escaping the blast-radius than Kakuzu. Also, regarding my original statement, WHICH Mask would "take care" of C4?
  17. Floydical
    Floydical
    This match is closed for judging.
  18. ~Uzumaki~
    ~Uzumaki~
    You both played well, I was really impressed with the points both of you gave but I feel piratefish was the better debater here. If Kidgamer65 had made more posts with more detail then things would have swung to his favor but he didn't really say much and piratefish countered his post and he didn't post a rebuttal. Winner in my opinion-piratefish
  19. Floydical
    Floydical
    Piratefish, very few flaws overall but I'm surprised you pulled out so many cards right off the bat. Normally someone will hold back some of their later techniques for future counters, but I think your tactic works well for you. I did see some flaws with your ideas, most notably how Deidara would successfully make use of his mines without Tobi's help and how Kakuzu knows about C4 so he wouldn't let himself be in range of the explosion. But overall, I think you did a very thorough job when it came to defining your combatant and sizing up your opponent. When it came to your later idea about utilizing the bombs without being buried, I think its a great idea but I wasn't sold on it right away. I think based on how we learned about the jutsu, it wasn't intended to be used like that. Either way, I couldn't say for certain that dropping them wouldn't set them off, so I commend your ingenuity on the matter.

    KidGamer65, I like your points and I think you did a great job overall. I like that you were very keen to point out the weaknesses in Piratfish's arguments that you did. I feel that you created some very beneficial scenarios for Kakuzu and made the match quite exciting. However, I did not really get your Fire+ lighning combo = rain. I can see that you are implying the combination can start a storm but you didn't explain this well and honestly I think its improbable. I think you would have been better off claiming the water mask can simply make it rain because that wouldn't technically count as a jutsu and that might have done yourself a little more good. I did love your tactic regarding using the forest to Kakuzu's advantage, it certainly would give him a way to dodge or escape Deidara.

    Overall, I feel that you both did a really good job with this debate. Piratefish, you had a very strong intro and Kidgamer65 you really came on strong yourself and made some very good counters. In the end, I feel that Piratefish's sheer detail and effort won him the day. Despite some of Kidgamer65's strong points, good counters and well-executed tactics later on, I feel that Piratefish simply explained and detailed-out his counters and game plans too well to be beaten. Again, I want to commend your both on your efforts and your attention to detail. I think you both deserve to move on and I can't wait to see both of your guys' second round 1 matches.
  20. Owarij
    Owarij
    Now this was a great read..Both of you did absolutely excellent when it came to your points.. but Piratefish had so much more detail put into his posts.. especially at the beginning .
    Though just alot of words aren't enough to win a debate.. piratefish still maintained logical points , tactics and counter tactics....

    KidGamer, you also had great points but I feel like you didn't explain them enough, In a few cases you countered Pirate's paragraphs with just a line or two, but in others I feel like he won them...

    Close match, All in all I'll give this to Piratefish
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