Kimimaro vs. Kisame (created by Uzumaki16)
Restrictions: Kisame has Samehada but cannot utilize his giant mobile water dome technique.
Knowledge: Kimimaro knows about Samehada's ability to absorb chakra and Kisame has no knowledge of Kimimaro's KG.
Starting Distance: 50 metres
Location: Where Lee and Gaara fought Kimimaro
To clarify some things from my postings, you are limited to 15 post total that will be counted for scoring. From your 16th post on, you will not get credit for anything you stated. Keep all responses to a maximum of 20 lines, if you notice your response is more than that after posting it, please edit it as soon as you notice. If you have any posts at the end of the debate with more than 20 lines, you will get a DQ. This obviously does not count images you post or links you post to show evidence from the manga, only your lines of text. If you apply titles of some sort to clarify sections of your post this will not be counted either, again, only lines of text count. If you have any specific questions about the match, message me or Uzumaki and we will clarify it in this thread. Again, do not post in this thread until you are posting an argument, any and all posts you make count toward the 15 total.
Either one of you can post first. Begin!
Kimimaro's abilities made him well suited for close-range combat fighting,demonstrating tremendous taijutsu skills combined with equally impressive speed, agility, and dexterity which he heavily relied on for his taihenjustu which is a system of movement and positioning that allows the user to adapt to his or her environment through a series of postures and skills primarily relying on dexterity, coordination, agility, and bone alignment. Taihenjutsu translates roughly to "Body changing skill," Taihenjutsu typically depends on skills that require the user to have a fair degree of spatial awareness as well as Kinetic awareness due to the constant movement and placement via pinpointed pre-cognition based on muscle memory. Because of this, highly developed taihenjutsu specialists typically develop a high degree of awareness in their environment and bodies which allows them to escape injury from strikes, throws, pins.Combined with his Shikotsumyaku that lets him manipulate his own skeletal structure would make getting a direct physical hit on kimmimaro almost virtually impossible.Even if by some chance kimmimaro was ubable to defend himself and unable to posistion himself correctly he can protect his body by have his bones portrude from his body which would force kisame to fight from at least mid range.The fluidity of his moves and kekegenkai allows him to be on a constant offensive and defensive posistion.Kisame would need to have space between them to begin interweving hand signs to perform some of his more intricate water ninjustu.Point being kisame would be at a huge disadvantage if the space between them was at a minimum.
Defense against Water Ninjustu
Kimmimaro bares the Cursed Seal of Earth, which is said to be equal in power to the Cursed Seal of Heaven, and both Seals are said to be the strongest amongst the ones used by Orochimaru.Furthermore, after entering his Level 2 state: Kimimaro becomes much slower,but his skin is also thicker and harder, making it impossible for even Gaara's sand to penetrate it.This extra layer of defense gives kimmimaro a much needed armor of sorts against water oriented justu that kisame has that use condensed pressure to damage his enemies.This would make smaller compacted water based attacks ineffective.
Defesnse against large pools of water.
Kimmimaro can make countless bones rise from underground,the blades of bone indiscriminately slaughter whoever stands on the ground's surface. Furthermore, if this fails to bring down his foe, Kimimaro can become one with the bones, which in turn can allow him to attack an enemy unnoticed.This ability to become one with the bones can provide shelter for him underground as he turns the earth itself into a death trap ,he can use this as a underground passage way to hide from a oncoming assault of high pressured water and use the bone spines to churn the earth opening it up and eventually swallowing most of kisames attack.Since this is one of kimmimaros only actual ninjustu (4 out of 5 of his dances are taijustu based) and relies very little on actual chakra.This would almost render kisames strongest technique in this particular match useless much as it was when facing Might guy.Kimimaro receives increased chakra levels and physical capabilities when his seal is active.This would further expand his ground and give him the option of leveling and absorbing a larger volume of water flood based attacks.Keep in mind kisame has no body of water to boost his attacks which hinder the proximity of his attacks making it much more likely for kimmimaro to dodge and have the earth absorb them.
Whatever kisames plan is it would be crucial for every attack that succesfully lands on kimmimaro to be effective while maintaining a good distance,this will prove extremely difficult as kimmimaro is fast.with kisame trying to keep his distance while at the same time using water to attack it would provide kimmimaro ample time to see,dodge and act accordingly to his attacks.Since kisames justu are mainly water based there is not much he can do to mask his attacks which for the most part are plainly visible to the eye.
DeadManWonderLand gets my vote by default
I was actually wondering if I could get an extension,I got assigned 6 essays all due this week. I finish up finals and essays tomorrow.
I messaged DeadManWonderLand about it and he is okay with granting this very late extension. For now I am granting a 4 day extension on this because I want to be done with the first part of this round ASAP.
This match will be closed tomorrow at 5:00pm eastern if no one else posts.
So I think you've underestimate Kisame a great deal in this battle. While it is true that Kimmimaro's specialty is taijutsu Kisame has proven that he himself is no slough when it comes to taijutsu. He's also evidenced that he is incredibly strong having broken the earth with a one handed swing of samahada. But what is very special about Kisame is his ability to quickly perform jutsus between taijutsu bouts. So I would argue that while Kimimmaro is a taijutsu fighter, it is more dangerous for him to get close to Kisame. What is even more dangerous for Kimmimaro though is the fact that Kisame can create his own water source in the time in takes his sword to descend down from a throw. This used in combination with one of Kisame's dangerous water based attacks can leave Kimmimaro in shreds, or devoid of chakra.
Given Kisame's thoughts we can gather that he has rather durable skin, which is a problem for Kimmimaro because his style of fighting necessitates he stab or slice his opponent to death. We've also managed to see Samahada completely tank an attack from Bee's raiton charged Hyper Vibrato why is that relevant. As we've seen demonstrated using raiton as an aid to pierce objects is destructive witnessed through Raikiri, Chidori, and Hell Stab, beyond that Kisame said that Bee's raiton penetration power is greater than the penetration power of wind, which as we know is great enough to pierce completely through a tree and a rock with limited chakra use, my point being that it is doubtful that Kimmimaro would be able to penetrate Samahada. I know you will say that Samahada drained the raiton chakra out of Bee's blade and that is true, however, Samahada only drains through direct contact which means the blade had alreadu made contact before Samhada drained the chakra and therefore the feat still stands.
Now, as previously mentioned Kisame has the ability to create his own water source, he also has the ability to fuse with Samahada. Because Kimimaro is a taijutsu specialist he will most likely resort in having to engage in CQC at which point Kisame could knock him underwater and fuse with Samahada. And because Kimimmaro will most likely try to engage in CQC Kisame will have no reason to need the Water dome.
You've mentioned an interesting ability of Kimmimaro, namely the Dance of the Seedling Fern. I will point out a few problems though with this technique. Firstly Kimimaro has no means of getting underground as no one is burying him underground here. Second because Kisame can alter the terrain and most likely will do so in order for the enviroment to suit him that puts Kimimaro at a particular disadvantage in terms of using Dance of the Seedling Fern. In addition Kisame still has rather good reaction times. And when fused with Samahada, Kisame can sense an opponents chakra which is going to drastically lower the chances of Kimamaro launching a surprise sneak attack on Kisame.
Now you mention the toughness of Kimimaro's body after he's transformed but it would appear that Kimimaro really can't afford to lose his speed as given Kisame's stength and his own statements he can cut clear through bone.
What I am confused to though is your churning the Earth argument. We've seen that when faced with an opponent Kimimaro seemingly waits for them to attack or to prepare an attack unless he's enraged. He did so against Naruto, Lee, and at times Gaara. So the idea that Kisame would just wait and watch him slowly open the earth in order to act as a drain seems confusing. Why would Kisame allow Kimimaro to take this action?
Let's assume for a second that Kimimmaro could underground. He would be putting himself at a direct disadvantage as Kisame could use a water clone feint and use Subterranean Voyage to blitz Kimimaro. Kimimaro having no sensing abilities would be clueless this was happening.
It would also seem that Kisame has an ability similar Kimimaro when fused with Samahada as he is seen without bones protruding from his head, and then he is seen again using the previously mentioned bones to attack.Also in terms of chakra absorption it has been a given fact that Samahada can simply hold chakra without transferring it to another user as demonstrated by Samahada just holding chakra here and here. Which means Samahada can safely absorb all of Kimimaro's chakra in one swipe. And considering Sasuke was able to handle the influx of natural chakra he gathered from his use of his heavenly seal without turning into stone or a toad we can safely gather that Kisame's absorption of chakra from seal users will not result in him turning to stone in a way similar to Asura path.
Now the way the battle will start the opponents will see each other. And Kisame will create a large body of water (perhaps larger than the body of water he created against Gai considering his clone was only at 30% chakra, this also suggests that Kisame's physical strength is greater that what was witnessed there.) as Kimimaro approaches him. In order to fight from her Kimimaro will probably opt not to be engulfed by water and thus will engage Kisame in CQC. At this point if Kisame is feeling impatient he can use Great Shark Water Bullet. If Kimimaro thinks he can tank it like you suggest, it ends up chakra-less. Or Kisame could play with his food for a bit a put Kimimaro in a Water Prison when engaging Kimimaro in CQC. Alternatively he can switch himself out for one of his water clones and have one clone engage him in CQC while having two other clones barrage Kimimmaro with techniques like Dance of 1000 sharks. The moment Kimimaro gets a chance to attack Kisame he will most likely reveal his kenkkei genkkai as his preferred weapon of choice is bone. Because Kisame has ability similar to this, he should be able to work with Kimimaro's ability. When Dance of 1000 sharks is used, the only possibility for Kimimaro would be Dance of the Seedling fern. At which point Kisame will merge with Samahada and hunt Kimimaro down in the water. Kimimaro really doesn't stand a fair chance against Kisame as Kisame can always bring his greatest asset along with him, namely water.
Kisame is not more proficent in taijustu then kimmimaro
and i would like you to cite somewhere in the manga where his taijustu is mentioned to be higher then average for someone of his level.I cannot find any sources that make this true.Kimmimaro has greater agility and reflexes which i already pointed out which is a factor in close combat fighting.Kisame has a large sword which would make his strikes angular something that kimmimaro pointd out to lee which would lead to his eventual defeat.And rock lee is someone who specializes in taijustu himself.You would be have to say kisame is more skilled in taijustu then rock lee as well if you were to say he is better then kimmimaro which is just not the case.
Kimmimaro can produce bones from his body at any point combined with his taihenjustu which draws from spatial awareness as well as Kinetic awareness due to the constant movement and placement via pinpointed pre-cognition based on muscle memory.This makes him the very opposite of angular.He can attack and defend at the same time.The fluidity of his movements and the fact he waste no steps when he prerpares to strike is mentioned in the manga reinforcing the idea that as he moves he can preapre to attack and counter attack in execution.His bones can act in the same manner as narutos chakra cloak to some extent.Which provides him with a greater range of attacks as well as greater dexterity and manoeuvrability which he is noted to already have. My point being kisame is outclassed in taijustu and close combat.
"Samahada only drains through direct contact which means the blade had already made contact before Samhada drained the chakra and therefore the feat still stands."
The fact stands that he has to hit him kimmimaro can use bones to block a direct flesh contact hit or if he is in the second state of his cursemark allow the bone armor that envelops him take the blow.He also gets a tail which can also be used as another extension of himself.That only adds to the amount of working limbs kimmimaro can use at the same time.
"Firstly Kimimaro has no means of getting underground as no one is burying him underground here. Second because Kisame can alter the terrain and most likely will do so in order for the enviroment to suit him that puts Kimimaro at a particular disadvantage in terms of using Dance of the Seedling Fern."
You present it as if he can only go underground if its in retaliation to a oncoming attack which is false he can decide to use it whenever he wants which i did present
in my post where i depicted him using it to counter against a possible large volume of water.Because kimmiaro also the the potential to change the terrain.
"We've seen that when faced with an opponent Kimimaro seemingly waits for them to attack or to prepare an attack unless he's enraged"
You are now trying to restrict his abilities to scenes within the manga.He let them attack because 1 they were genin and posed no threat to him and 2 if the attack was powerful he always managed to simply dodge the attack.You cannot restrict his attacks because of attitude in one battle.He would know to take kisme seriously.
Kimmimaro was not arrogant.
"Let's assume for a second that Kimimmaro could underground. He would be putting himself at a direct disadvantage as Kisame could use a water clone feint and use Subterranean Voyage to blitz Kimimaro Kimimaro having no sensing abilities would be clueless this was happening."
Once again your selective in what you choose to repost to.Kimimaro can become one with the bones, which in turn can allow him to attack an enemy unnoticed as well.If he used this in retaliation from a water justu the ground would turn to mud makign it easier for the spines to come faster as it no longer needs to break through the rock.many extending spikes coming out from the mud can set kimmimaro up for a feint attack as well.
My first initial post were not presented in a way that says kisame has no way to defend himself or win.I merely point out the key components to his fighting style and provided evidence as to what range he would have to fight from for it to be effective.I go on to cite certain disadvantages from fighting long range.As being able to see oncoming water attacks and the chance to have the earth itself absorb most of the impact.His superior reflexes and agility present problems for kisame whether he is up close or at long range.Being further away only gives him more time to plan and counter attacks,
Most of your argument is based on actions that i may have or not have taken place.This is a debate that requires both of our input.I never assumed an attack by kimmimaro would land on kisame i was waiting for you to post about kisames main fighting factors and wanted to see how you would implement his moves before i made bold statements on how the fight would actually go down.You cannot simply state kisame would feint him in an attack that is not how a debate works.We present the justu there fighting styles and there disadvantages.the actual fight would start afterward.
Your argument is interesting, but you are wrong. I won't bother to spend much time discussing argumentation style. But what I've done is suggested proposed counters to future moves you may suggest to demonstrate that the course of action I've already highlighted would not be greatly advantageous to Kisame. You should not expect me to have the same argumentation style as you, namely laying out all of Kisame's skills before getting to the actual debate. I find that not only wastes time, but I would never list a full arsenal possibilities in one statement as I've then used all my resources and there are no surprises left. Thus the way I will debate this battle is within the fight setting. Beyond that I've noticed certain phrases used have come verbatim from naruto wikia which is plagiarism, but I digress.
Now, you've tried to bait me into using A>B>C logic with your comment that Kisame would have to better at taijutsu than Lee. While Kisame is better at taijutsu then gennin Lee, not only capturing chunnin Lee but being able to strike Gai and force Asuma into a situation in which he couldn't avoid Samahada.
However, I never stated that Kisame was better than Kimimaro in taijutsu. The reason why Kimimaro stands no real chance is because of Kisame's versatility. Because Kisame can go from using Samahada, to hand to hand, to ninjutsu, and back to samahada all very quickly the predictability of his strikes are greatly diminshed as opposed to Lee who just attacked in an angular fashion, or Gaara who only attacked using sand. Now you say that Kisame is simply outclassed in taijutsu and you claim that Kimimaro has better reflexes than Kisame, however if I remember correctly Kimimaro doesn't have a reflex feat that is on the same level as dodging Bee's raiton pencil. So we will give Kisame the reflexes edge. Kisame also seems to have the advantage in terms of strength. At the point in which Kimimaro may have to block Kisame's attacks there is a real possibility that Kimimaro's bones may snap considering the punch I showed earlier was diminshed in strength as pointed out by Itachi. And if Kisame can easily break through the ground with a one handed swing of samahada what chance does Kimimaro's bones have?
Now you tried to counter one of my points. But Kimimaro's bones are still a part of Kimimaro and there is no reason to believe that chakra does not course through them. I would pose that by blocking with bones, Kisame could still absorb Kimimaro's chakra.
Kimimaro has never gone underground on his own accord, rather Gaara always buried him.
So I'm confused as to how you assume that he can now only go underground but dig holes deep enough to drain Kisame's water. In addition, if Kimimaro is digging a hole he would have to enter the hole being dug so that he can extend it long enough tha it can drain Kisame's water. The problem then lies, in the fact that he is trapped within a confined space and would be subject to Kisame launching a barrage of attacks at Kimimaro while Kimimaro has a much more limited area to try and avoid attacks. That said, yes Kimimaro can use dance of the seedling fern in water, however, at the point in which he uses it he'll probably be in a situation in which he needs to defend himself from one of Kisame's shark jutsus. And with Kisame's great reflexes, especially when in water, and with his healing ability, and because he can probably draw chakra through Kimimaro's bones, he'd survive Dance of the Seedling Fern. And would fuse with Samahada making it so that he can sense his enemy.
You mean his attitude in 3 battles. He was indeed arrogant.
The only time Dance of the Seedling fern was used was in sand. I highly doubt it would have broken through rock. Which necessitates that he can only use it in certain situations.
I want this debate to be done tonight so I am making the deadline tonight at 2:00am Eastern. If you two decide to conclude this debate before that point, please let me know.
What you call plagiarism i called citing a direct reference and source to the attack or ninjustu i was referencing.The point of the debate is to collect evidence and reasoning for my argument.confining him to space depends on the proximity of which kimmimaro would use bone forest.In that case kimmimaro would not make a move that hampers his ability to continue fighting.Your constantly assuming he is in a stationary position which can lead kisame into a direct unavoidable attack.Just because he used in sand does not mean he can only use it sand.Gaara was the opponent who pushed him that far.To assume its only useful in sand because that was the situation he was in at the time is faulty.He has the earth seal curse mark which was said to be of equal power to the cruse seal of heaven.Once semehada is fued with kisame he would no doubt also advance to his final stage of the curse mark to counter act kisame increase in power.I am open to debate but its pointless if you are going to constrict kimmimaros movements and actions based on
what you you think he would do considering i am the one that is suppose to be arguing for his benefit not the other way.And assuming because an attack was used against a certain person at a certain time it is only good in that instance.You sight him drowning in the pools of water and being trapped in orbs of water which means you already assume he is captured or the bones that come up by the thousands are no threat.Its as if your debating with yourself.