Round 1 Pool 4: MilwaukeegHost vs. Rikerslade

  1. Floydical
    Floydical
    Part 1 Neji vs. Haku(created by Uzumaki16)

    MilwaukeegHost: Haku

    Rikerslade: Part 1 Neji


    Restrictions: Neji is restricted to his feats and abilities within part 1. Haku has no restrictions. Anime can be allowed if both sides agree. Please message Uzumaki16 or myself about this individually either way.

    Knowledge: Haku has full knowledge of part 1 Neji, but Neji is not aware of Haku's KG.

    Starting Distance: 50 metres

    Location: Naruto bridge (where Haku fought Naruto and Sasuke)

    Intent: Kill

    To clarify some things from my postings, you are limited to 15 post total that will be counted for scoring. From your 16th post on, you will not get credit for anything you stated. Keep all responses to a maximum of 20 lines, if you notice your response is more than that after posting it, please edit it as soon as you notice. If you have any posts at the end of the debate with more than 20 lines, you will get a DQ. This obviously does not count images you post or links you post to show evidence from the manga, only your lines of text. If you apply titles of some sort to clarify sections of your post this will not be counted either, again, only lines of text count. If you have any specific questions about the match, message me or Uzumaki and we will clarify it in this thread. Again, do not post in this thread until you are posting an argument, any and all posts you make count toward the 15 total.

    Either one of you can post first. Begin!
  2. Riker Slade
    Riker Slade
    Neji could easily beat Haku really. Sasuke's irregular and incomplete Sharingan was able to catch Haku's movements. Neji's eyes are vastly superior to them. Not only that, but he has 360 degree vision, making Haku incapable of sneaking him. Also, Haku has shown no intelligence on the Hyuga's single blind spot, so it's unlikely he will hit it.

    If Haku comes in to sneak Neji, a quick Rotation would blow him back and possibly defeat him, as Neji's Rotation was evenly matched, or even outclassed, the same punch that Naruto used to defeat Haku.
  3. MilwaukeegHost
    MilwaukeegHost
    Counter-arguement to Rikerslade's 1st Post:




    "Sasuke's irregular and incomplete Sharingan was able to catch Haku's movements"





    The byakugon does NOT have the ability to predict movements/attacks. Haku's incredible speed can be SEEN by the byakugon but his movements cannot be PREDICTED by Neji. The ability to predict Haku's movements saved Sasuke, not simply the ablity to see through the technique itself. Also, sasuke was able to keep up with Haku's speed b/c of his training/fighting against Rock Lee, copying it with his sharingan increased his speed. If Neji were trapped inside of the Demonic Ice Mirrors jutsu, HE WILL DIE.







    "Neji could easily beat Haku really... a quick Rotation would blow him back and possibly defeat him"



    LMAO !!! (thought I'd waste a line to laugh at this comment).
    Eight Trigrams Palms Revolving Heaven is a DEFENSE jutsu, it will never "defeat" anyone. Not sure what you're implying here. SMH








    -MilwaukeegHost, K.U.S.H. Sage
  4. MilwaukeegHost
    MilwaukeegHost
    2nd Post: LOCATION BREAK-DOWN (Naruto Bridge, 50 meters)



    ************************************************** ************************************************** ******
    First Blood = HAKU:
    Neji has no knowledge of Haku's abilities, while Haku has intel of Neji's jutsu/fighting style. So this means Haku has both the location AND intel advantage, and Haku will most likely attack first and aggressively (while Neji tries to analyze his new opponent).
    ************************************************** ************************************************** ******



    Bridge Overview: Advantages/Weaknesses



    The Naruto Bridge is obviously a location advantage for Haku's Kekkei Genkai (Specifically the water surrounding them). The ocean itself below them serves as a natural resource to supply his Water Release, or easily transformed into Air to naturally supply his Wind Release, combined to create continuous ICE RELEASE jutsu--without need of converting his CHAKRA to accomplish the same techniques.

    Since Haku has previously fought at this location, he will quickly be able to analyze his strengths/weaknesses for excellent battle stragegies. If Neji has no intel of Haku's KKG, he will not immediately recognize the disadvantage to fighting on the Bridge (Haku's Nature Types).



    Bridge Dimensions: Combat Area Limitations


    On the bridge:
    The shinobi are confined to a two-directional isolated arena, only allowing for direct combat or a one-direction retreat.
    (Note: Any retreat attempt by Neji could be countered by a simple Ice Mirror blocking that path on the bridge, effectively using the narrow path on the bridge as an advantage.)


    Above the bridge:
    Neji has no ability to fight outside of the bridge area because he has no flying/hovering/teleporting/Space/Time jutsu. Haku is not isolated or limited to fighting on the bridge, being able to travel through the air in his Demonic Mirroring techniques.
    Haku is able to use the vast open atmosphere on the bridge to increase his wind nature techniques.


    Below the bridge:
    Haku is able to use the vast ocean below the bridge to increase his water nature techniques.
    Neji could jump off the bridge for a brief retreat and survive the drop. But it would be suicide to fight a highly skilled Water Release shinobi on top of the ocean (unlimited supply for jutsus), trained by one of the best suiton users in the Manga (Zabuza).


    Bridge Summary:
    Haku is able to use the vast open atmosphere & ocean below to naturally supply all 3 of his Nature Types (Wind/Water/Ice). #BOOM
    It is impossible for Neji to fight off the bridge, and fighting on the water below would be suicide. {Combat on bridge discussed next post}











    -MilwaukeegHost, K.U.S.H. Sage
  5. Riker Slade
    Riker Slade
    Haku has not shown the ability to use Wind techniques or Water techniques. He may have the Chakra Natures, but has only shown the ability to use Ice Release.

    And no, Sasuke didn't beat Haku because of the speed/taijutsu he copied, as he copied the speed/taijutsu AFTER his battle with Haku.

    And while the Byakugan doesn't give Neji the ability to predict, that doesn't mean he can't do it himself using his brain. The Sharingan does it automatically, all Neji needs to do is predict it with his brain.

    And Naruto was able to hit Haku. Neji was superior to the Naruto that did, so Neji would also have the ability to hit Haku. With the style Neji has, this could put Haku down for good.
  6. MilwaukeegHost
    MilwaukeegHost
    Counter-arguement to Rikerslade's 2nd Post:


    "Haku has not shown the ability to use Wind techniques or Water techniques...
    ...He may have the Chakra Natures, but has only shown the ability to use Ice Release"






    Yes, a shinobi must demonstrate the ability to use jutsu before we include it in our debate. Adittionally, being born with a nature type doesnt mean you will have the skill to actually USE the technique, I see your arguement here. But, I don't think you understand the Nature of KKG.

    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/316/7

    The link above describes the usage of Kekkei Genkai. But in order to use a KKG jutsu specifically, you already have to have the ability to manipulate each jutsu seperately. You do this in each hand (one nature type per hand) and combine them both to create a new Nature Type. But you need to understand that there is no such thing as an "Ice Nature", "Wood Nature", "Boil Nature", etc. Shinobi using these jutsu are actually using 2 of the 5 nature types simutameously--which means Haku's ability to manipulate WATER and WIND is so advanced that he can use each technique with only ONE HAND. Kakashi says in the link above says that KKG shinobi can control two different elements AND the ability to combine them both to create something totally new. If you need MORE evidence:

    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/316/8

    Kakashi says (above link) that Haku has the ability to "...control(ed) two elements, WIND and WATER, to create Ice." If this is STILL not enough evidence to suggest Haku can manipulate more than just "Ice" Release...

    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/024/5

    ...he actually DID use a B-Ranked Water Release jutsu (above link) called "Thousand Flying Water Needles of Death" in Manga #24, First Databook, page 205. That's a Water Release jutsu performed WITH ONE HAND, just as I described previously. BTW, he was born into a village known for using Water Nature, and was trained directly by one of the most proficient Water Release shinobi in the Manga, Zabuza.





    "And while the Byakugan doesn't give Neji the ability to predict, that doesn't mean he can't do it himself using his brain. The Sharingan does it automatically, all Neji needs to do is predict it with his brain."




    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/316/8


    Kekkei Genkai techniques CANNOT be duplicated. The sharingan has NATURAL predictive capabilities (unlike the Byakugan), so this feat cannot be duplicated by any shinobi without this KKG. So a byakugan + Neji Brain does NOT = Predictive capabilites. A Byakugan cannot copy KKG from other doujutsus, or any KKG for that matter. Kakashi himself admits "...not even (his) sharingan could copy (Haku's KKG)."





    "And Naruto was able to hit Haku. Neji was superior to the Naruto that did, so Neji would also have the ability to hit Haku. With the style Neji has, this could put Haku down for good."




    LOL. Naruto was only able to hit Haku using Karuma's Power. But anyhoo, being able to hit Haku is a far cry from that = Killing Haku. Naruto was also able to punch Neji and defeat him, despite him having an Ultimate Defense (Eight Trigrams Palms Revolving Heaven ). FYI





  7. Floydical
    Floydical
    MilwaukeegHost has asked if quoting your opponent counts towards your line limit. No it does not, but make sure you wrap these statements with the quote tag when using the advanced properties. If possible, avoid quoting your opponent and simply reiterate their statement within your counters. Note that your message to me at the end of your latest response came up as line 21 for me. So please delete the last part of that response. Thank you.
  8. Floydical
    Floydical
    This debate will close on the 8th around the same time it was posted if no extension is requested.
  9. MilwaukeegHost
    MilwaukeegHost
    Floydical: I'm sorry, I will post again today. I do not need an extention but I do need the entire day to respond because I'm currently at work. Thank you
  10. kakashi owns all
    kakashi owns all
    MilwaukeegHost gets my vote, my advise for him is to post manga pages to prove things

    @ rikerslade wile the things you say sound good you fail to much as much reason as your opponent

    this debate should be closed by now
  11. MilwaukeegHost
    MilwaukeegHost
    4th Post: NEJI FIGHTING STYLE BREAK-DOWN





    Before I discuss what Neji CAN do in this fight, let's take a brief look at what he CANNOT do:

    1) Use any Nature Transformation (Extremely important)
    2) Use any Genjutsu
    3) Use any Ninjutsu (other than gentle fist/byakugan related techniques)
    4) Use any movement prediction type jutsu with the Byakugan (disproved by me in post #3)
    5) Use any flying/hovering/teleporting/Space/Time jutsu (his combat is confined to the bridge)






    OFFENSE: Gentle Fist Techniques (only)


    I do understand that Gentle Fist the most reputable and fearsome taijutsu style known in all of Konohagakure. But, the disadvantage here is that the Hyuga Clan uses this technique as its bread and butter, and it has become their signature style of combat. In other words, the Hyuga are not known for using any other fighting style in combat (see list above).

    Note: The manga has never shown Neji to perform any non-byakugan related offensive techniques, so none should be allowed in this battle.


    Taijutsu: Close Combat
    Neji MUST fight using close combat techniques, thats all he knows how to use. Which means he must be extremely close to Haku to attack him. I will illustrate this specific weakness when discussing Haku's abilites.





    DEFENSE: Byakugan & Eight Trigrams Palms Revolving Heaven


    Byakugan: Must be active to "see"
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/104/16

    Short point here. But the Byakugan MUST BE ACTIVATED to be able to have the 360 degree 50 meters vision. So at any moment when Neji runs low on chakra, injures eye/s, or is not actively using the Byakugan, he is not able to sense Haku's location and attacks at all times, fully utilizing his KKG. As Neji's Byakugan is stronger than most, he bases his attacks towards special nodes on the chakra network, called tenketsu (Literally meaning "Pressure points"). I will illustrate this specific weakness when discussing Haku's abilites.



    Eight Trigrams Palms Revolving Heaven
    Although this is known as an "Ultimate Defense", this technique is only effective when rotating, since the chakra itself is not enough to stop a physical attack thus if they cannot spin, the user becomes vulnerable. I will illustrate this specific weakness when discussing Haku's abilites.
  12. MilwaukeegHost
    MilwaukeegHost
    5th Post: HAKU FIGHTING STYLE BREAK-DOWN




    OFFENSE: ICE RELEASE KKG





    One Handed Seals for Jutsus
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/024/5


    Haku is a very unique shinobi, being able to perform Jutsus with ONE HAND. Thousand Flying Water Needles of Death jutsu could also be used in this same battle sinerio against Neji as it was with Sasuke by attacking Neji and blocking his spin, thus preventing his defense: Eight Trigrams Palms Revolving Heaven.
    ______________________________________________


    Demonic Mirroring Ice Crystals
    Using Neji's close combat fighting style against him, Haku could engage Neji in close combat, allowing him to be trapped in his Demonic Mirroring jutsu. Although Neji has the Byakugan to see Haku's movements, he does not have the abilty to keep up with Haku's immense speed inside the mirrors. Furthermore, the longer this battle progresses the more chakra Neji expires, eventually causing him to not be able to use his only defense in this sinerio, Eight Trigrams Palms Revolving Heaven.




    DEFENSE: Tenketsu Knowledge




    Hyūga clan (and Neji independently) calculated the exact tenketsu that would be required to shut down an opponent's combat ability, leaving them without the strength to even use taijutsu, let alone ninjutsu. Sadly for Neji, Haku is the perfect counter for this fighting style.

    According to Zabuza, Haku possessed such prodigious talent that, in many ways, Haku had become more dangerous than him. Haku possessed a very detailed knowledge of human physiology and specifically tenketsu (pressure points), thanks to Zabuza's former ANBU training. His tenketsu knowledge was great enough that he could disable an opponent with acupuncture by hitting a precise point on the body with a senbon, to cause immediate death or a temporary appearance of such. Haku's knowlegde of tenketsu explains his main choice of weapon in battle: a senbon.

    Haku's extensive knowlege of tenketsu will allow him to successfully defend himself against the byakugan, because he can anticipate the exact areas of attack during Neji's gentle fist taijutsu. He knows all of the points of the body that Neji targets while trying to block the chakra usage of an opponent, plus he has the speed to defend these attacks and counter effectively--Haku has knowledge of Neji's fighting style.
  13. Floydical
    Floydical
    Due to the situation, MilwaukeegHost's last 2 arguments are not to be judged. Since he asked for a slight extension before I closed it, he is entitled to posting but it is not fair to rikerslade considering I was not able to inform him of the late postings in time. The debate will only be judged up to MilwaukeegHost's 3rd post. Considering at that point it was 3 arguments to 2, that is the most fair way to judge this.

    Again, I apologize for my crudeness when it came to closing these debates. I underestimated the time issue and the fact that so many people would need short extensions.
  14. Owarij
    Owarij
    Though I believe MilwaukeegHost could have utilized manga scans to better explain his points, it really didn't matter... with the use of words he explained his arguments and counters thoroughly, with one of the only flaws being the copying of lee's speed argument..

    Rikerslade , I feel like you didn't have enough detail and a were on a defensive too much

    I'll give this match to MilwaukeegHost
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