Round 1 Pool 3: ~Puppet Master~ Vs. TobisPawn

  1. Floydical
    This debate will close on the 6th around the same time it was posted if no extension is requested.
  2. TobisPawn
    Hmmm...alright, I'll stick with only Bunta then. Just to be safe. I'll counter your posts:

    Kakashi can definitely avoid Naruto's attacks and continuously hide, but there's not much a point to that. Kakashi's stamina is definitely lower than Naruto's, and he'll just eventually tire out. And also, Naruto, using SM, can sense where Kakashi is hiding, and Bunta can attack accordingly, by stabbing the ground with his sword, where Kakashi is, either piercing him, or making Kakashi move away and waste more chakra. And Bunta can also moisten the ground with his water bullets, slowing Kakashi down and causing him to exert more chakra. Kakashi's also a Suiton user, but he's not as skilled as Bunta is in the area.

    Also, contrary to what you said, Kakashi wont be sneaking up on Naruto or any of the sort, as 1.) Naruto can sense where Kakashi is coming from, and react accordingly, 2.) Getting near Naruto would mean he'd be engaging a SM Naruto with better strength and reflexes than him (see above) in CQC, which is not good, and 3.) Bunta, with Naruto on his back, can jump up and scout the field.

    Also, you questioned Bunta's mobility in the forest, but he's seen to be very mobile even in forests, so that should be no issue. Kakashi should be worrying, though, as Naruto can have Bunta attack Kakashi while Naruto hides in the forest, tracks him via sensing, and ambushes him.
  3. TobisPawn
    You say that the 50m distance will hinder Naruto, but it'll hinder Kakashi more. Naruto's reflexes are top notch, and as I've pointed out, SM Naruto senses and reacts to attacks quicker than Kakashi those. Also, we have no feats of Kakashi using his 1st gate. He can, but we cant necessarily quantify how powerful he'd be. SM Naruto, on the other hand, with 50% or less of Naruto's regular chakra (a clone of a Naruto that's been fighting for days), can send Kakashi flying with the palm of his hand. And judging by the "!?" Kakashi exclaims, he cant react to Naruto too easily. You can say that he would never see an "attack" coming from an ally, but he'd be in the same situation, unable to react, if Bunta distracts while Naruto does an all-out surprise attack that can feasibly shatter Kakashi's jaw, considering a simple palm sent him flying.

    Kakashi can use Genjutsu, but Naruto's known for using Bunshin feints. In a case where Kakashi uses one, it can likely be a clone, similar to what Kakashi did against Itachi. That, or Bunta can break Naruto out. But if Kakashi does trap Naruto in one, Naruto always has Bunta to back him and stop Kakashi from finishing him off. Or Bunta can grab Naruto, jump up high where Kakashi can't reach, and shoot some Water Bullets at him, while Naruto breaks out. And I'd like to point out that Kakashi having Zabuza's sword will hinder him, because 1.) He'll have one less hand to do seals with and 2.) Bunta can easily overpower him in a sword fight, with Naruto backing up.
  4. ~Puppet Master~
    ~Puppet Master~
    First of all, about your argument that Bunta and Naruto would be able to pinpoint and attack Kakashi, please note that Kakashi can move out of attack range. Also, you claim that moist will prevent Kakashi from freely moving through the ground, but it is stated that earth is turned into sand so the user can dig through like a mole, using suiton in this situation won't really bother Kakashi's movements since the whole point of the technique is to easily move under the ground.

    And Naruto will certainly not be able to hide from Kakashi at all, Kakashi has two methods to constantly know Naruto's location, his Ninken and his extraordinary smell. And I've also come across something Kakashi could find very useful in this battle, they're called Makibishi and Kakashi could sabotage the entire battlefield with it, greatly limiting Naruto's movement and agility for the rest of the battle.

    I'll also be countering some of your arguments with possible strategies for Kakashi, since you seem to underestimate what Genjutsu can do for Kakashi in this battle, and how Naruto's weakness to it could be his downfall.
  5. ~Puppet Master~
    ~Puppet Master~
    This is how Kakashi could go about killing Naruto...

    Kakashi's genjutsu works on more than one target at once, which means he can put both Naruto and Bunta under genjutsu, and since Bunta hasn't shown us any means of dispelling genjutsu, we can assume it will keep him out of the fight for the time being. Kakashi can now follow his attack with Double Suicide Decapitation Tech to restrain Naruto, should he break out. At this point, all it takes is Silent Killing using the Kubikiribōchō to hit a vital point, killing Naruto and sending Bunta back to Myobokuzan.

    How Kakashi can take care of Bunta, possible scenario...

    Kakashi can quickly scatter the Makibishi across the battlefield and retreat behind a tree, where he will make a shadow clone which will go under the ground to the other side of Naruto and Bunta. The real Kakashi can then use Lightning Beast Running tech against Naruto whose movement is limited, intentionally miss and make it run to the other side where the shadow clone connects to it and creates a transmission in order to severely injure Bunta and send him back to Myobokuzan.

    And this was without any genjutsu involved, which would have made this scenario that much more plausible.
  6. TobisPawn
    Yes, Kakashi can use Hiding Like a Mole to evade for awhile, but he'll eventually be pinpointed by SM and uprooted. And if Kakashi decides to just play a waiting game, he'll definitely tire out before Naruto and Bunta. And if he decides to enter CQC with Naruto, he's done for, as Naruto has superior speed, strength (see how he casually palm'd Kakashi), sensing (see how he sensed Juubi's attack first), reflexes (see his fight with Raikage), and Frog Kata. So even if Kakashi seemingly evades an attack (which is hard to believe, considering we've seen Naruto display superior speed, sensing, and reflexes), he'll still be surprise-attacked. And if Kakashi evades even that, Bunta can be there to pierce him. And I see what you're saying, but I don't understand how Hiding Like a Mole will really achieve anything when Naruto can easily sense where he is, and uproot him with a casual Sage tech: Giant Rasengan.

    The thing is, Naruto doesn't need to hide from Kakashi. Kakashi needs to hide from him. And while Kakashi can smell Naruto out (though I don't see how that's helping), Naruto can sense where he is and react accordingly, with his superior sensing/precognition and speed/reflexes. Kakashi's outmatched in the overall area of hiding/sensing. And those tools will only serve as a hindrance to Kakashi alone, because Naruto can just jump up on Bunta and attack from above.
  7. TobisPawn
    Sorry for questioning, but can I see a scan where Kakashi's shown to Genjutsu two people at once? And while I'm under the impression that, by his battle with Pain, Naruto was capable of breaking out of Genjutsu at the level Kakashi uses, Gamabunta should definitely be able to. I'm pretty sure Bunta or Naruto can dispel it by taking in Natural Energy, or through Jiraiya's way. And again, Kakashi wont be restraining Naruto if he breaks out or his broken out, as Naruto's strength feats faaar outweigh Kakashi's. And you haven't said how Kakashi would deal with Gamabunta, who should definitely be able to break out. And with that said, sorry for questioning, but can I have some panels of some of Kakashi's usable Genjutsu?

    To counter your Bunta strategy: As said multiple times before, Naruto can sense much better and react much faster than Kakashi. If Kakashi hides behind a tree, Bunta shoots it down with water bullets (scans posted somewhere above), or jump up and scout him. That, or Naruto can sense where he is and throw an expanding FRS at an unsuspecting Kakashi. All the while, a clone of Naruto can be digging through the ground (see the scans of the Neji fight that I posted), sense where Kakashi is, and pop up and give him a nice round to the jaw. Bunta and Naruto will not be limited in anyway by those tools, as Bunta can jump and still fight, and Naruto can jump onto a tree, or use his sensing/FRS sniping/digging through the ground.

    Sorry for no scans in this post (@judges). Just that basically everything I'm saying has been posted somewhere above or in the previous page, so I don't feel the need to post them again. And ahh, looks like the debate closes in an hour. Good luck!
  8. Floydical
    I will allow ~Puppet Master~ 1 more post within the next 12 hours if he is able to. Other than that, this match is officially closed.
  9. ~Puppet Master~
    ~Puppet Master~
    I will keep clinging to Kakashi's genjutsu here, since it is the perfect counter to Naruto, and a good way to stay out of taijutsu range.
    Genjutsu is enough to buy Kakashi time, since his attacks are known to be really fast. And you asked for scans to confirm... Here they are, sorry for not providing them in my earlier posts.

    Here is Kakashi's first genjutsu, used against sakura ( a genjutsu type ) to create hallucinations.
    Here is Kakashi's second genjutsu, where he paralyzes two ANBU units using Genjutsu: Sharingan.
    I can't see Naruto escaping a paralyzing genjutsu by dispelling it.

    May this conclude our first match...
  10. Floydical
    This match is now closed.
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