Part 1 Kiba vs. Part 1 Lee(created by Floydical)
Restrictions: Lee's ankle weights remain on and he cannot utilize reverse lotus. Other than that, both combatants are limited to material only relevant up to the end of part 1.
Knowledge: Lee only knows that Kiba fights with Akamaru and Kiba simply knows that Lee is a Taijutsu specialist.
Starting Distance: 25 metres
Location: Outside the Hidden Stone Village
To clarify some things from my postings, you are limited to 15 post total that will be counted for scoring. From your 16th post on, you will not get credit for anything you stated. Keep all responses to a maximum of 20 lines, if you notice your response is more than that after posting it, please edit it as soon as you notice. If you have any posts at the end of the debate with more than 20 lines, you will get a DQ. This obviously does not count images you post or links you post to show evidence from the manga, only your lines of text. If you apply titles of some sort to clarify sections of your post this will not be counted either, again, only lines of text count. If you have any specific questions about the match, message me or Uzumaki and we will clarify it in this thread. Again, do not post in this thread until you are posting an argument, any and all posts you make count toward the 15 total.
Either one of you can post first. Begin!
ok rock lee clearly has this one in the bag.. he has serperior taijutsu skills than wat kiba has, giving him a clear advantage.. even with his weights on lee is still very fast, fast enough to take on part 1 sasuke who at the time was considered one of the most talented
even with the restriction of the reverse lotus and weights rock lee still has access to the 5 gates he is capable of opening giving him a very solid advantage
kiba cant possibly keep up with the superior taijutsu skills of rock lee when the 5 inner gates are open, in fact even when injured rock lee was capable of fighting very strong opponents such as kimimarou and was still able to fight reasonably well
not to mention rock lee could potentionaly get the drop on kiba with his gd speed and his primary lotus technique which even sasuke was thrown of guard to with his sharingan active aswell
here even with the sharingan lee was able to get in fast and begin the primary lotus technique he could potentially do the same to kiba
While doing my research on Kiba I learned that his speed feats are high as well. Kiba uses a Jutsu that is passed down through his clan called "Four Legs Technique." This Jutsu enhances speed, strength and reflexes. Kiba is also a Ninja that waste no time while attacking. Kiba was so quick that he was capable of hitting Naruto before Naruto could finish the word fast.
Kiba is using this Technique can not be read. You can not predict Kiba's attacks through Normal means. Kiba becomes an animal when using the "Four Legs Technique." Lee is trained to fight those standing and those attacking with fist and legs. Kiba attacks as if he has paws. Lee would have to adapt to fighting an animal. This is not easy. Instead of blocking fist he is blocking claw. To add on to Lee's troubles of adapting to fighting an Animal he must undergo this battle blind. In the Second scan you can see that Kiba waste no time attacking immediately after the smoke bombs dispersed. The only way to escape this form of assault is to flee the area in gas. Kiba just like the rest of us knows this perfectly and has an attack prepared. While this being a Minor attack Kiba can very well just to assault lee with something more gruesome.
Rock Lee's normal fighting will not be effective here because he is outnumbered. What makes this outnumbering different than any other is Kiba and Akamaru fight with Synchronization. They have the best Teamwork in Part 1 with History to add. They share a "Hit and Run" method of attacking. This means that even with Rock Lee's greatness in Taijutsu, Kiba and Akamaru never have to be engaged and trapped in a Taijutsu battle with Lee because their fighting style of attacking and creating space between themselves and the target prevents this. In order to defeat Kiba, Rock Lee will need to learn to fight a Dog, fight blind and fight two opponents all at the same time.
as it is true that lee will have to adapt to fight kiba and kiba is very quick, he still pales in comparison to rock lee, lee has also shown his own unpredictable movements in the fight with kimimarou called the drunken fist
kimimarou states here that lee movements are just to unpredictable giving lee a gr8 advantage, this unpredictable movement allowed lee to get hits in on a superior ninja even while he was injured.
another thing is even if kiba and akamaru keep running away from combat with lee, lee has shown gr8 speed feats to be able to close the distance incredibly fast whiles the 5 gates are open, lee's power is also incredibly increased whiles the 5 gates are open and after a couple of attacks from him, kiba wont be able to take all that much as even gaara struggled in his match with lee even tho he was lee's worst match up
here u can see Lee closing in the distance incredibly fast between him and gaara and with a gr8 enough power to break through his 'ultimate defence'. now if even gaara struggled against lee with his defence, i dont see kiba taking many hits before he is out and comapared to this speed feat kiba deffinetly pales in comparrison
The Drunken fist while being unpredictable lacks important feats such as second guessing an attack, understand who is friend and who is foe. When drunk your judgement skills are reduce. If Rock Lee struggles with comprehending his friends or his foes, in this state of mind Rock Lee would easily be confused by things that would confuse the normal human eye such as a Dog turning into a Human, Kiba becoming animal like, their being two Kibas. These things would be to much mental for a drunken fist Rock Lee. Rock Lee standing within a close combat range of Kiba is a strategy that in this state would not be able to fabricate like yourself. Kiba's unusual fighting, disguise tactics and fighting with a partner would be to confusing for Rock Lee. If Rock Lee engages in close range combat with Kiba, Akamaru will intervene and vise verse.
In Drunken State a Simple scratch that strikes blood is enough to "sober up" Rock Lee and put an end to this unpredictable fighting. After using the Drunken fist Rock Lee was at the mercy of Kimimaru. This one scratch needed to make Lee sober. If Rock Lee attacks Kiba, Akamaru will attack and Vise-verse. Another reason is that Kiba and Akamaru can utilize the attack "Fang Passing Fang." This attack allows Kiba/Akamaru to attack while spiraling. If contact is made would shred the Opponent. If Rock Lee attempts to attack them while they are in use of this Technique than he will be cut. There is no spot in this Technique where contact would not cut. Rock Lee in Drunken fist style does not think before attacking and does not second guess. Rock Lee will attack no doubt and this would cause him to be scratched, bleed and become sober. Akamaru has shown great efficiency in creating a handicap. This may be undermined by many but urination into the eyes of his Opponent causes them to be blinded.
Dynamic marking in the eyes causing blindness and pain.. Rock Lee in with 5 gates activated would be under a great disadvantage with him being blind. The Dynamic marking allows for Rock Lee to always be smelt meaning always be located. While still landing an attack on Rock Lee with Gates activated would be a problem. The pure shock waves would rip Rock Lee in pieces contact does not need to be made. Rock Lee cannot attack Kiba while he is using the "Fang Wolf Fang." Rock Lee would be on the constant defense. Rock Lee having his gates open would cause his body to take damage at a constant as well but removing the mode he would not be able to avoid the attack or the shock waves. Rock Lee has also only been shown to use Drunken Fist or the Gates never back to back or simultaneously. This would obviously cause to much strain on his body. After both modes he is left at the mercy of his Opponent.
as i am aware that rock lee doesnt understand who is friend and who is foe whiles in drunken form in this case it would not matter as it would only be a battle between kiba and him.. being in drunken state lee has shown to avoid attacks he would not normally be able to, giving him a gr8 moment to strike back against kiba.
I am fully aware that fang over fang can be dangerous and lee cannot attack him while using this tech however kiba cannot use this technique so consecutively .. the jutsu itself would eventually end and while in the 5 gates with lee's increase in speed and strength, lee could easily close the distance between them and deal some heavy damage .. although i amare that lee has never used both the 5 gates and drunken fist back to back i was simply stating that it is another thing to take into account as a battle can go many ways, nothing is ever certain ..
i must add that even tho akamaru's dynamic marking could be a problem if lee can avoid it, dynamic marking would be useless and with lee's speed avoiding it is easy enough
as u have mentioned its not just kiba to worry about but akamaru aswell.. however akamaru after a few hits from a 5 gate powered lee wouldnt last long at all, this would also be bad news for kiba and could potentially put himself in harms way by trying to protect akamaru, kiba has shown to be very protective of akamaru and has fled when things have got to much for him
During my study on Kiba I have an understanding that Akamaru is more than an animal and should be counted in the grand total of things. To say that this is a battle between simply Kiba and Rock Lee is false. The statement that Rock Lee can not determine between friend or foe was just showing how lacking in observation Rock Lee is using the Drunken Fist and with this being kept in Mind having to fight two Opponents, that have more than amazing synchronization and this is not just a compliment but pure fact. Rock Lee in Drunken Fist is no problem for Kiba and Akamaru considering he only needs to be scratched to be sober again. If Rock Lee attempts this path of fighting the victory would sure fall in Kiba and Akamaru's paws. In Wolf Transformation mode the combination of these two do not have to land a direct hit or a hit at all for the Shock waves to slice the opponent and this slice would awaken Rock Lee in a state that he could not match the hound.The Dynamic Marking in Rock Lee's eyes would ensure the fight in Kiba's hands. This can be said because Rock Lee is blind and therefore unleashing his Gates would prove pointless if Blind. While Rock Lee is blind they can use a barrage of attacks to harm Rock Lee and with Wolf Transformation their attacks have no need to land. Your argument for Dyanmic Marking was that Rock Lee could easily dodge this would his speed. While this is true Rock Lee has a favoritism for using this speed for attacking. Rock Lee in Gates could not dodge "Fang Wolf Fang" seeing as you can only dodge a direct hit from the attack but the Shock Wave would still slice the Opponent. If you are capable of Dodging Kiba and Akamaru has shown to be able to make great turns with this Jutsu never having to stop and start again. Which is why Sakon and Ukon used a Defense approach.
Kiba and Akamaru are capable of using this just with Succession. They are capable of pulling two of them off with Succession. These two Fang Wolf Fangs can last a relatively long time when Kiba and Akamaru are always changing course with no need to stop. While in this attack they are no vulnerable to attack. Kiba and Akamaru are neither vulnerable after the attack either. Kiba has shown that right after the Fang Passing Fang he is capable of grabbing the container.. Akamaru showed that even after damaging his head so greatly he could still take an assault for Kiba and use Dynamic Marking in the eyes of the Opponent.Kiba and Akamaru are both aware after using the Fang Passing Fang and would not be left open for an attack. They have also shown to be able to turn while using the Fang Wolf Fang which makes them capable of staying in this protection for a duration of time.
you are correct when it comes to drunken fist however i was merely mentioning his unpredictability in this form aswell as his unquique evasion.. also when i mention it was a battle between kiba and rock lee i was not counting out akamaru i just simply consider akamaru a part of kiba..
as you have said kiba and akamaru can stay using fang over fang for a relatively long time aswell as being able to manuever very well in this jutsu.. my point is they have never shown to stay in this form for an incredibly long time..
im aware that kiba and akamaru are fast but lee is faster he can just wait them out staying away from there with his incredible speed, and the moment they let the jutsu down rock lee will then close the distance and that is where his assault begins... u have to remember the moment rock lee gets a hit in is when kiba and akamaru are in real danger.. as shown with gaara rock lee was so fast in the gates that he litterally just juggled him around dealing massive damage.. if it wasnt for gaara's defence it would of been lee's win.
now kiba has not shown a defence that matches gaara's in any way so he would deffinetly fall prey to lee's strength and speed and when he is hit he would then not get the chance to perform another technique.
gaara even mentioned that his armor of sand was being ripped off .. which no other person has attained this feat
another thing is i think we are forgetting how fast lee really is.. when the 5 gates are open lee's speed becomes so gr8 that kakashi even needed the sharingan to keep up and he even comments on lee's speed
now with a speed like this do u really see akamaru landing dynamic marking.. because i dont see this happening and even if dynamic marking did manage to hit him.. getting hit in the eyes is very unlikely
There are some key notes that you must consider about the Assault on Gaara before deciding that Kiba would be defeated. Rock Lee could not perform an identical Assault on Kiba as he did on Gaara reason being the enviroment. Rock Lee was capable of attacking Gaara from literally every known direction because the area was so confined. Rock Lee was capable of jumping of the ceiling to hit Gaara. In an open place such as outside the hidden stone village Rock Lee can not use the ceilling as momentum.There are also no walls around therefore Rock Lee can not jump off the walls as a boost in momentum either. The only thing that remains is the floors. Rock lee can run on the floor but it would not be giving him a momteum boost as the walls or ceiling would being able to push off.
Rock Lee being as fast as he is and this we all know would only have to perform the 5 gates for a short period of time against Gaara. The faster Rock Lee was moving the less time he spent maintaining the Gates which means, the speed feats you are praising for Rock Lee also equals a quick period of time consumption. Rock Lee when Assaulting Gaara did not use the technique for an extreme period of time. The Wolf Transformation itself is capable of withstanding brutal damage. The scale of this attack is far greater than Rock Lee could bring forth. A huge blunt object in fierce momentum being stopped abruptly. Single moments after Rock lee unleashed his 5 gates his body was already in huge strain. rock Lee's Muscle had already snapped. This time being short along with Kiba being protected from being hit using his Fang Wolf Fang would mean he could stall out this mode.
ok i have researched the location of this match as it is stated the match is outside the hidden stone village.. now if u look up pictures of the hidden stone village from the manga u will notice that the village is in the middle of a very mountainous region .. as i will agree it is not as confined as the room where gaara and lee fought.. it is still a place where there are lots of rock wall's and boulders around... so there is a very real possibility this could be used to lee disposal and can be used to push off of..
i will admit that rock lee will not have access to a roof to push off of but that does not stop lee juggling kiba on the ground.. lee does not necersarily need to juggle kiba in the air but more close to the ground..
there is also no proof that lee going faster in the 5 gates cuts the 5 gates duration so i disagree with this point.. i will admit that lee can only remain in this for a short time, however this is all the time lee will need.. the amount of strength lee has in this form is easily able to destroy gaara's defence, this same amount of power could easily harm kiba and akamaru
they do not have the defence that gaara does and even gaara was brought to a point where he could no longer stand up .. it was only cause of the match up of that battle that lee lost.. however in there is no such disadvantage against kiba
Just to clarify a concern of Microsword57's, the entire assault related to the reverse lotus is not allowed in this fight. Any arguments that include this argument will not be counted among material for judging.
This Assault can be use against Rock Lee in this sort of battle. Rock Lee was shown to be drained and in the Mercy of Gaara after this Technique.
Rock Lee can only use this Technique once. The problem lies in the fact that there are two Targets. My Initial Argument stands that if Rock Lee was to perform this entire Assault on Kiba. He would be two weak to defend himself from a Fang passing Fang from Akamaru. This applies Vise Verse as well considering the two are identical and could not be distinguished. This would put the Victory in the hands of Kiba and Akamaru. When I spoke about the speed and time that theTechnique consumed I may have confused you. I meant that Rock Lee using the Technique at such incredible speed would mean that he was not using this Technique very long considering it was a fast technique it is implied he did not use it long.. Rock Lee performing this Technique on either one would cause him to fall prey to the another. The Fact that there is more than one opponent is what puts the Victory in the hands of Kiba and Akamaru. While Rock Lee's speed with the 8 Gates boost overshadows the speed of Kiba and Akamaru when portraying animal-like swiftness from the use of his Four Legs Technique.
All of Rock Lee's power increases or style shifts contains a drawback that puts him in grave danger. The Hit and Run Tactics of these two keeps them from a full engagement in Taijutsu with Rock Lee. When using Drunken fist Fang Wolf Fang would sober Rock Lee and leave him as prey. The problem for Lee is that there are two of them and he can only perform his most powerful attack on one of them. Kiba is also incapable of being harmed while using Fang Passing Fang and with his Soldier Pills he would be capable of performing these Techniques transcending his limits.
Their chakras seem to be linked as well because after only feeding Akamaru a pill Choji mentions that is likely both of their chakras have increased. If a Soldier Pill allows for a Ninja to fight for 3 days and 3 nights Kiba and Akamaru should be capable of using enough Fang Wolf Fang or Fang Passing Fang to be used as a defense instead of an attack for as long as they please for a single battle.
This match will close at 11:50 eastern tonight.
This match has been closed.
I enjoyed this match very much. You both went into your characters bag of tricks and pulled out everything in it and you even went into how the battlefield could play to their advantage or disadvantage. Not really an easy decision but I give Microsword57
Beautiful debate, great points given by both participants..Kirokoe using drunken fist's unpredictability and Microsword57 countering lee's gate mode by bringing out the battlefield argument...
I feel like Microsword57 really had you on the defensive on this one.. he provided some pretty excellent counters to your arguments.. some of which you had problems refuting...
I'll give this match to Microsword57!
I felt that you both did a really well rounded job in this debate. You both made very clear and detailed arguments that benefited your combatant and pointed out flaws and weaknesses in your opponent. Overall I think you both did a really good job, well done.
Kirikoe, I can't say too much about your intro, but I felt that going with the drunken fist was a potentially bad move. This 'technique' was obviously to help a limited character and was never shown to be significant since it was not shown again. In addition, the fact that Lee is drunk depletes the overall reliability that the 'technique' brings. Finally, I feel that combing drunken fist with the 5 gates was a risky move. We have seen that Lee's strength in that state is great enough to the point where he could cause serious and life threatening damage to himself. Overall, I feel that this 'technique' would hurt him more than help him. I do, however, really like your point about Akamaru. His presence could certainly change the tide of an ever-changing battle.
Microsword57, like Kirikoe, I felt that I can't take much away from your intro. I like your point about the drunken fist being canceled easily, eliminating the possibly threat of your combatant's ability certainly plays in your favor. I also like your point about the drunken fist causing Lee problems when fighting this very unique opponent. Fighting a character that takes on animal-like characteristics and an animal that can transform into a human would certainly play a role in such a unique battle. Lastly, I really like your point about dynamic marking possibly canceling out some of the advantage of Lee's 5 gates. Now I find it hard to believe that Akamaru could actually land that attack given Lee's speed at that time, but afterall Lee does not know about the tech and just because you can't prove to me its possible, I cannot take the fact away from you that it essentially could cancel out the combatant's advantage even if its for a short duration.
Toward the end of the debate you two finally discussed the terrain. I feel that this point should have been argued earlier but you both did a good job of pointing out the major strong points that you could regarding the environment. But again, considering it was discussed so late, I really don't feel that it played a big role in the debate.
Considering all this, I give my vote to Mircosword. I feel that if Kirikoe did not utilize drunken fist that it might have given him a better chance. But despite that, I feel that you both have a solid, strong debating style.