Pre-MS Sasuke vs. 2nd Mizukage (created by Floydical)
LolaxX: Pre-MS Sasuke
TheGreatUchiha: 2nd Mizukage
Restrictions: Sasuke does not have access to his MS, EMS or any of the related powers. He does not have access to any snake powers nor snake summons. He has full access to his cursed seal and Hawk summons. It can be assumed that Orochimaru's presence within Sasuke will not play a role. The 2nd Mizukage has no notable restrictions.
Knowledge: Limited. The 2nd Mizukage only knows about the Uchiha's fire techniques, their sharingan, and its advantages. Sasuke knows about the 2nd Mizukage's past status as kage, but does not know about his specific abilities.
Starting Distance: 50 metres
Location: A modified version of where Gaara and Onoki fought the 2nd Mizukage. The ground is grass and a small lake is about 200 meters away. The pillars of stone are still present on the battlefield.
To clarify some things from my postings, you are limited to 15 post total that will be counted for scoring. From your 16th post on, you will not get credit for anything you stated. Keep all responses to a maximum of 20 lines, if you notice your response is more than that after posting it, please edit it as soon as you notice. If you have any posts at the end of the debate with more than 20 lines, you will get a DQ. This obviously does not count images you post or links you post to show evidence from the manga, only your lines of text. If you apply titles of some sort to clarify sections of your post this will not be counted either, again, only lines of text count. If you have any specific questions about the match, message me or Uzumaki and we will clarify it in this thread. Again, do not post in this thread until you are posting an argument, any and all posts you make count toward the 15 total.
Either one of you can post first. Begin!
I'll begin this by saying the 2nd Mizukage's primary form of combat is Genjutsu.
With that said Sasuke's sharingan can see through the Mizukage's Clam. Its not liek the hidden mist that clouds any sight in general, but is a technique that
uses mirage to create false images of the user. False imagry dosent work on the sharingan.
Both ninja have been shown to be able to take out piles of shinobi easily.
By using sharingan, he will be able to locate the real clam and destroy it.
As far as speed, Mizukage has shown no feat or has been shown to use any special speed feat.
Sasuke has shown to be able to speed blitz even members of akatsuki rank as seen in this fight
The only threatening technique that that mizukage may have is Joki Boy, Its speed seems pretty fast, and if it moves enough it will get to the point of exploding.
Sasuke can summon his hawk and fly into the sky. With that he can create the conditions for Kirin and destroy the Mizukage, while sitting safe out of Joki Boi reach.
His sharingan was even able to over power tsukoyomi. He can put the Mizukage into an illusion and use that opportunity to attack.
Sasuke has an array of jutsu that would be effective against the mizukage, whereas, Mizukage's Joki Boi is the only threat to Sasuke. Sasuke's speed seems fast than Joki Boi, even gaara's sand was able to keep up with it, Sasuke is much faster than gaara's sand. And in cursemark level two, he can use his wings to block the explosion of Joki Boi. He wont be unscathed, but the wings have shown to be able to protect sasuke from explosions like deidara's. With that, he can attack the mizukage while the joki boi reforms again. Not only that, but his speed and chakra is even further increased as if he already werent fast enough.
Fine, I will use your formatting as well then.
First of all, some of your arguments are basically assumptions. How do yo know that sasuke can see through the clam's illusion? Sasuke broke Tsukuyomi because Itachi wanted him to, as most already know. This is what Narutowikia had to say.
"The Mizukage is able to summon a Giant Clam to assist him in combat. By opening its shell and releasing a mist, which the Second can use to create mirages which effectively hide their actual location. The technique is so baffling that many able shinobi could not figure it out, despite him explaining it to them."
Now that shows that the clam is not one to be reckoned with. Also, the Second Mizukage is on par with Muu a master of Jinton, an element that can destroy 25 susanoo clones, so one can only imagine what power he possesses. We do know he is a master water user and also an oil like user. Here's what he can do
"As a member of the Hōzuki clan, the Mizukage can transform his body into a liquid state and then back into a solid form at will. He can also use his index fingers to fire bullets of water that were strong enough to easily pierce through a sand clone. The Second Mizukage also utilises a type of substance that Gaara stated to be more reminiscent of oil than water, as it was able to not only seep into his sand, but destroyed its construct. This was demonstrated when he was restrained by the Sealing Tag, this water caused the sand around the seal to adhere and then crumble, allowing him to escape. It is later revealed that the water in the Second's body is in fact a mixture of oil and water which gives it its unique construct."
This is how he can use it against sasuke, sasuke is an excelled fire user but the Mizukage is a WATER MASTER. So unlike itachi who dodged his dragon flames, the mizukage would simply put it out. then there's the lightning, the Mizukage is vulnerable to lightning indeed but here's what he can do,
His Infinite Explosion, a clone that is surrounded by a layer of oil that eventually pressurizes then explodes into more clones.
His I dont see why sharingan wouldnt be able to. Its not like its a techinique to blind the opponent, its a mist in which the mizukage uses his chakra to create an illusion of himself, non dojutsu users wouldnt be able to see through it, but what makes it so that dojutsu users CANT see through it?
Sure he can liquify himself, but with Sasuke's lightning techniques and how fast he can initiate them, liquifying wont be much help, if anything if he is struck while trying to liquify, he will be stuck in that state like how suigetsu was against Darui.
, As for firing water bullets, with sasuke's sharingan, he can easily see the bullets coming at him and dodge. Sasuke wouldnt use fire against Mizukage blindly, he would discover that the mizukage is a water user and will focus on lightning. Joki boi isnt infinite explosions, nor does it explode into more clones, it needs to move around alot to gain heat, then after exapanding long enough, he will blow. As I said, In cursemark lvl 2 his wings show to be a great defense, and protected him against diedara's explosions, but they were damaged in the process.
Also, Sasuke has shown to be able to use his speed to speed blitz high level opponents even at the start of a battle. And sometimes the only way to defend is to use an equally quick enough jutsu. Even diedara had to risk hurting himself to survive a speed blitz from sasuke.
What will Mizukage do if Sasuke decides to use Kirin, and summons his hawk to keep a safe distance from Joki Boi while creating Kirin?
Mizukage may be a master water user, but what jutsu have we seen him do other than his summoning, Joki Boi, and water bullet.
Exactly, he uses chakra to make an illusion of himself, the sharingan sees chakra and that's how he can determine a clone, but if the clone is made out the users chakra and has the same chakra like the kage bunshin, then how can sasuke tell?
If sasukes not dumb enough to use fire techs then how would the Mizukage be dumb enough to liquify himself? Like it was said above, sasuke knows nothing about the mizukage while the mizukage knows about the fire techs the sharingan and it's advantages,
"As the Mizukage, he was undoubtedly an immensely powerful shinobi. He has identified himself as a Yin Release genjutsu user and displayed the use of these in collaboration with the mist exuded by his summon: the Giant Clam, to create mirages that appear so real, that his opponents have great difficulty in finding his actual location. Even when informing a considerable portion of the Fourth Division on how to defeat him, none of them were able to grasp the concept behind his techniques, allowing him to kill and injure a significant number of them with relative ease, showing that the Second Mizukage's combat capabilities are truly fearsome."
A whole division couldn't see through the clam and if a 3t could see through the clam then that wouldn't be the Mizukage's main fighting style now would it? It's not easy to see through just because sasukes a sharingan user. Tell me how can sasuke stop the clones from exploding?
"The Second Mizukage was also able to use the substance within his body to perform a very powerful technique with which he creates a chibi-like clone of himself comprised of water surrounded by a thin outer layer of oil. As the clone moves around, the oil heats up, causing the water inside to evaporate and the clone to expand in size with it until the built-up pressure of steam inside causes the clone to violently explode. The water vapour is then blown high into the air where it cools down and creates hail, which in turn cools down and reforms the clone, allowing the process to start all over again. It is known as the Second's infinite explosion ninjutsu (無限爆破忍術, mugen bakuha ninjutsu) for the simple reason that this is an never-ending process and series of explosions unless the clone is somehow immobilised and kept cool at the same time."
Tell me how this isn't infinite, tell me how sasuke can immobilize the clones and keep them cool at the same time? As for kirin, this is what the pedia had to say
"Kirin is an extremely powerful, one-shot, lightning technique created by Sasuke Uchiha. He draws natural lightning directly from thunder clouds to supplement the power of his strike and controls it with chakra. Due to the technique using natural lightning, which Zetsu says reaches the ground in 1/1000th of a second. However, the preparation time required also decreases the technique's efficiency; if there are no active thunder clouds the user must create them by using powerful fire techniques to produce the necessary storm conditions. Once a lightning source has been acquired, shaping and guiding the lightning to the target requires very little chakra. In addition, usage seems to destroy the thunder clouds as the sky cleared up of clouds after use. As such, this technique can only be used once in a fight. The technique can completely obliterate a mountain."
And if you read the location, there are no thunder clouds. How can he prepare fire balls when he's up against a water user? The prep time takes long and the mizukage would figure it out.
The sharingan can tell the difference between a FAKE and the REAL one. As you said, the Mizukages casts an illusion. Not a real copy. Sasuke will be able to tell the difference cuz a fake clone doesnt have heat signatures, which the sharingan can see.
"A whole division couldn't see through the clam and if a 3t could see through the clam then that wouldn't be the Mizukage's main fighting style now would it?" may be what you believe, but that dosent make it so ur assuming that. in the series we have seen that only certain ppl can take on certain ppl. just because a>b and b>c does not mean a>c. Its all about match ups. So that dosent apply here. Sure his jutsu works against most opponents bcuz not everyone has a dojutsu, but eventually, one will come across someone who is equipped perfectly to fight against you. Dont take a 3t sharingan user lightly. Yea compared to MS and EMS, its weaker, but as zetsu said, a novice with a stone will beat a beginner with a shuriken anyday. Sasuke was very skilled with just his 3t.
Sasuke's speed outmatches the Mizukage's so what will the Mizukage do when sasuke speed blitz him? If he liquifies to avoid a slash he will be paralyzed when sasuke uses his lightning. Also, what jutsu other than Joki boy can the Mizukage use to put out any of sasuke's fire blasts. If he attempts any water, sasuke can quikly strike with his chidori along the ground shocking the mizukage.
the way u said it made it seem like when the Joki Boi explodes it creates smaller clones. When it simply reduces back to its normal size. And besides, after using the technique, the Mizukage is left "severely weakened." Sasuke can evade the Joki boi with his natural speed and reflexes along side his sharingan and strike the Mizukage with his blade, or chidori. Using the Jopki boi is a double edged sword for him, cuz if it fails, then Mizukage is left open.
And how would the mizukage know what sasuke is tryin to attempt by changing the weather, he has no knowledge of Kirin. And given his attitude. He would prolly want to see what sasuke is up to. Seeing as to how he has shown no techniques to be able to strike opponents high in the air. Sasuke can fire multiple dragon flame bombs into the sky to change the weather, in CS2 he has plenty of extra chakra to create even more intense fire dragon bombs due to the larger supply of chkra which could make the prep time faster. It makes sense.
There is no evidence of sasuke's speed outmatching the mizu's, you said it yourself that there were no feats of speed for mizu.
Also, there is yet to be known about the mizu's abilities, judging by the fact that he is a KAGE, then he must be able to use at least 4 or 5 elements so you can't act like water is his only defence. If he's on par with Muu who has Jinton then he should be able to have more elements than just water. True that it will a disadvantage for his oil, but tell me sasuke can stop te mizu's infinite explosions, you say sasuke can stop the clones from moving but how can he? his fire techs only heat the clones even more.
Wellp. Can only use what has been seen, and since we havent seen Mizukage do anything other than what has been shown, assumption mean nothing.
Okay, I will not use Sasuke's speed factor vs Mizukage since his speed feat hasnt been shown
"Also, there is yet to be known about the mizu's abilities, judging by the fact that he is a KAGE, then he must be able to use at least 4 or 5 elements so you can't act like water is his only defence. If he's on par with Muu who has Jinton then he should be able to have more elements than just water. "
As for fightning on par with Muu, we dont know the conditions of which their battles were on. So theres no evidence on how the fights could have gone.
All assumptions. Maybe he does, maybe he doesnt.
But Sasuke can use his firestyle to destroy, if not, speed up Joki Bois detonation time by making it heat up faster than normal, not giving it the time it needs to explode into hail and reform. or use his CM2 and use his firestyle to attack the joki boi which will make it explode early before reaching sasuke. In that, Sasuke can control the timing of its explosions. As I said, Mizukage is severly weakend after Joki Boi's activation. Sasuke, with his speed has a perfect chance to strike the Mizukage. Also. Sasuke is very skilled with genjutsu, he can trick the mizukage into thinking he is attacking the real sasuke.
EXAMPLE: Diedara, who has trained his eye to see through genjutsu, was easily fooled into thinking he had gotten sasuke with his dissolving jutsu. When in reality, it was a fake Sasuke.
Deidara, an S-class ninja who was easily on Kage or a little below kage level. Shows that Sasuke is capable of easily tricking high level ninja into falling for his genjutsu
This match will close at 11:53 pm eastern on the 12th.
This match is now closed.
You both did well and explained your points. However I'm leaning towards Lolaxxx since she had more detailed arguments, highlighting more of Sasuke's abilities and how they prove beneficial against The Second Mizukage. Though one could argue that Sasuke had the advantage from the structure of the match up. I think it would have been more equal if snakes were his summons so that he can't just fly to the sky and kirin his opponent, nonetheless, Lolaxxx made an all round better argument.
Overall, I feel that you both made a good attempt at this debate, but it did end up a little flat. I understand that given the conditions, things were quite limited on the Mizu's side, but more could have been done to propose tactics. Sasuke really has no way to counter Joki boy and no significant claim could be made to explain how Sasuke could avoid it, even with hawk summons. I feel that the elements that were debated on were not necessarily the best to make this debate shine.
TheGreatUchiha, I feel that you made some good points like the Mizu preventing Kirin by putting out Sasuke's fire attacks and not using his liquidation against sasuke, but I find neither of these probable. First, since he doesn't know about Kirin, the Mizu would not go about smothering flames he didn't need to and he only knows about Sasuke's fire, not his lighting, so he might use his liquifying tech once at least by mistake.
All in all, I see flaws in this debate that I did not intend and I feel that LolaxXx took good advantage. I feel that I originally intended the idea of Joki Boy to be argued more and that TheGreatUchiha would have been better off attempting to explain how that trump card could have won it for him. Considering everything, I give my vote to LolaxXx.