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  1. #1
    Senior Member Unbiased's Avatar
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    Proof Hiruzen deserves top ten if not top 5

    Hiruzen feats (Everything in the spoilers are manga pages to support my argument excluding one because I have no idea where that page is.

    Konoha called him the professor for being able to use all the jutsu that existed in the leaf.


    He truly expressed his mastery of ninjutsu in his entire fight with orochimaru. Lacking large chakra reserves yet holding off hashirama/tobirama and orochimaru is a feat within itself not to mention it means he had perfect chakra control since it was stated he did not have chakra reserves like he used too.


    He fought against perfect Edo's. I will explain why they were perfect with proof from the manga.

    1: Orochimaru did not show any concern of them lacking power. He was slightly impressed with tobirama's suiton skills.


    2: Kabuto stated that orochimaru had perfected Edo Tensei later in part 2. He even went on to say that they could use all their original techniques which I believe was kishi subliminally implying that Hashirama and Tobirama were fighting at their full potential. Also to be noted is that Zabuza/Haku/3rd Raikage/Nagato ect did not show a decrease in power when fighting with no emotions. Even Naruto went on to say that he was more powerful after his emotions were gotten rid of.






    Orochimaru had full knowledge of Hiruzen but still could not destroy the leaf village due to hiruzen sealing his ninjutsu and the 1st/2nd hokages.



    Hiruzens chakra while severely lacking had a powerful aura to it. It was able to shatter the very ground he was standing on when released. In my opinion that's badass in every aspect of the word.



    His speed with hand seals was incredible. Being able to match Orochimaru who was originally supposed to be hokage and being able to attack the 1st and 2nd hokage before they could even form a seal with Fire Dragon Napalm. Lets not forget Orochimaru was a prodigy and a genius ninja.



    Hiruzen showed absolutely no fear when the thought of facing the 1st and 2nd hokage's went into his mind. His only concern was against Minato. This shows that Hiruzen while already confident about beating orochimaru was confident in beating the 1st and 2nd hokage as well.



    He was able to destroy Wood release with ease using Enma. Something naruto while albeit on a higher scale has only been able to accomplish. I speak of hashirama's perfect wood releasenot Yamato's. Also not even Susanoo's arrows could destroy wood release but only pierce it.



    The ANBU acknowledged both Orochimaru, Hashirama, Tobirama, and Hiruzen of being far from any level less then kage. They state it was so advanced meaning only kage level ninja would have a chance in a fight like this.



    While struggling to use his Enma in his transformed state, he was able to slip explosive tags on Tobirama and Hashirama without either noticing along with orochimaru. This shows his ability to employ stealth tactics in broad daylight without Kage level ninja noticing. Quite a feat.



    Hiruzen didn't use Death Reaper seal just because it was his only seal, but due to the fact that it was the most logical and tactical seal to use. A normal seal would allow orochimaru to summon the 1st and 2nd hokage's again thus prolonging the fight. By using the Death Reaper seal he made it so Konoha can never be attacked by the 1st hokage/2nd hokage/and orochimaru.



    Orochimaru who was his student acknowledged him as the God of Shinobi. While he may only be called the God of Shinobi in konoha, it is a testament to his skills. Furthermore Kabuto acknowledges him as the strongest kage of the current 5. (4th Kazekage, 3rd Tschukage, 5th Mizukage, 4th Raikage.)





    While using clones he was able to smell Hashirama and Tobirama out in a genjutsu. This is quite arguably is one of the greatest feats for hiruzen. Genjutsu disrupts the shinobi's senses already, clones are only equal to 10% of your skills, yet Hiruzens clones while having disrupted senses were able to smell out hashirama and tobirama and capture them. That is like being blind, only having 10% energy, and beating mike tyson in his prime.









    Hiruzen was known to be able to use 1,000 skills(genjutsu in the viz translation) not by ebisu but also sakura acknowledges it.




    It was even stated that in his fight with orochimaru and previous hokages he was on equal footing with them. Displaying powers that are beyond that of Hashirama alone, Tobirama alone, and Orochimaru alone. (search bar ftw)



    Iruka stated that the third hokage was "The strongest of all" meaning all previous hokages that came before him were weaker then him yes that includes Minato since he was prior to his current term.



    It was said that hiruzen fought on the front lines of the Second Shinobi world war. For him to do that fighting against terribly powerful ninja's like Hanzo in his prime(he was stated to be the strongest ninja of his time), the third kazekage(strongest kazekage), and the third tschukage who we have seen is no joke. This only exemplifies his prowess being able to fight battles against these types of shinobi's while surviving.



    Hiruzen stated that his powers were far superior to Tobirama before Tobirama's death.



    Refuting arguments

    Any sort of "This is why hashirama is stronger" argument only makes hiruzen look stronger. You have to understand that since Hashirama was fighting with full use of his powers under a perfected edo tensei(see manga chapter 520 or my section on why it was perfected) it only makes hiruzen look more impressive.

    "well iruka's word is worthless since its iruka he is fodder"
    Not at all actually. Ultimately it is kishimoto speaking through his characters. Just like when Orochimaru stated hiruzen was the God of Shinobi, that actually wasn't necessary at all in the sentence. He could of just said old age caught up with you but no he said he was the God of shinobi. That title is only shared with the Sage of Six Paths meaning its a far superior title then someone thinking your powers were a fairy tale.

    I'm not even gonna get the 1st and 2nd databooks involved since the manga provides so much proof of his status. He rightfully deserves the top ten status through feats and his history.

    This isn't too say previous hokages don't deserve top ten or your top ten is weaker, but its to give credit where credit is due. Hiruzen even though he was last written about 13 years ago still proves to be a more capable ninja then the majority out there.
     
         
    Last edited by Unbiased; 11-14-2012 at 02:19 AM.

  2. #2
    ... Invsblphntm's Avatar
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    Re: Proof Hiruzen deserves top ten is not top 5

    Didn't read, but completely agree.
     
         

  3. #3
    「初歩」 Waltz's Avatar
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    Re: Proof Hiruzen deserves top ten is not top 5

    From what we've seen so far, Hiruzen cannot defeat anyone on the top ten list. Sorry.

    I may extend that to top 15 being that EMS sasuke is somewhere there.
     
         

  4. #4
    Senior Member Unbiased's Avatar
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    Re: Proof Hiruzen deserves top ten is not top 5

    Quote Originally Posted by Invsblphntm View Post
    Didn't read, but completely agree.
    Thank you, I do believe I put every single manga page that proves hiruzen was the best. Except for one for the 2nd shinobi world war but that one is hard to find.
     
         

  5. #5
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    Re: Proof Hiruzen deserves top ten is not top 5

    Perhaps the Edo's were perfect. That doesn't change the fact that the Senju's didn't use anywhere close to their full arsenal.
     
         

  6. #6
    Senior Member xjimbox's Avatar
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    Re: Proof Hiruzen deserves top ten is not top 5

    Quote Originally Posted by Invsblphntm View Post
    Didn't read, but completely agree.
    How do u agree if you didn't read it??
     
         

  7. #7
    Member AlastorNazura17's Avatar
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    Hmm.
     

    Re: Proof Hiruzen deserves top ten is not top 5

    I read the entire thing, I agree with what you said. It's just hard believing that he was the best shinobi. xD But good stuff, excellent info.
     
         

  8. #8
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    Re: Proof Hiruzen deserves top ten is not top 5

    Wow, so much proof.
     
         

  9. #9
    Senior Member Unbiased's Avatar
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    Re: Proof Hiruzen deserves top ten is not top 5

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGreatUchiha View Post
    Wow, so much proof.
    Thanks I spent a good 45 minutes just collecting the information. I even put the useless search bar to work lol

    Quote Originally Posted by AlastorNazura17 View Post
    I read the entire thing, I agree with what you said. It's just hard believing that he was the best shinobi. xD But good stuff, excellent info.
    Thanks I appreciate compliments when I put a lot of time into things like this.
     
         

  10. #10
    Senior Member muutobirama3rdraikagemizu's Avatar
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    SHISHUI IS UNDARRATED
     

    Re: Proof Hiruzen deserves top ten is not top 5

    hashirma , sasuke , itachi , edo madara , minato , nagato , naruto , bee , obito with bijus and gedo , mu , izuna , A stomp hiruzen i dont care how strong he was take away drs and hiruzen = fodder
     
         

  11. #11
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    Re: Proof Hiruzen deserves top ten is not top 5

    Maybe you're right, maybe you're not. I'm not convinced that Hiruzen is top 10, top 15 is reasonable. I appreciate the time and effort you put into this thread to backup your statement.
     
         

  12. #12
    Member yeahhboi's Avatar
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    Re: Proof Hiruzen deserves top ten is not top 5

    lol stfu hiruzen is a fodder kage, his bets jutsu is wat he copied from minato
     
         

  13. #13
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    Re: Proof Hiruzen deserves top ten is not top 5

    I completely agree. People downplay Hiruzen far too much...
     
         

  14. #14
    Senior Member Unbiased's Avatar
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    Re: Proof Hiruzen deserves top ten is not top 5

    Quote Originally Posted by ItachiLeeHatake View Post
    Perhaps the Edo's were perfect. That doesn't change the fact that the Senju's didn't use anywhere close to their full arsenal.
    It was written before kishimoto even thought of newer techs for them. However the outcome still wouldn't of changed.
     
         

  15. #15
    Senior Member xjimbox's Avatar
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    Re: Proof Hiruzen deserves top ten is not top 5

    Quote Originally Posted by yeahhboi View Post
    lol stfu hiruzen is a fodder kage, his bets jutsu is wat he copied from minato
    I think the third had it first... And he's not fodder he was unmatched he's was old and it was 3 against one in a trapped space plus The people he had to fight was his masters in healthy condition and one of his best pupils...

    The odds were not in his favor..
     
         

  16. #16
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    Re: Proof Hiruzen deserves top ten is not top 5

    Quote Originally Posted by ItachiLeeHatake View Post
    Perhaps the Edo's were perfect. That doesn't change the fact that the Senju's didn't use anywhere close to their full arsenal.
    I can use the same logic, Hiruzen didn't use anywhere close to his full arsenal either. Rasengan, chidori, genjutsu, etc.
     
         

  17. #17
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    Re: Proof Hiruzen deserves top ten is not top 5

    Quote Originally Posted by Unbiased View Post
    It was written before kishimoto even thought of newer techs for them. However the outcome still wouldn't of changed.
    I know that. Plot would've made Hiruzen somehow negate Hashirama's sleeping pollen jutsu and miraceously defeat his mokuton dragon(although it wouldn't have fit in the Sound Four's barrier anyway).
    Btw, don't listen to those bitter, hateful, petty idiots. Their troll posts are so uncalled for.
     
         

  18. #18
    Ruler of Omacron Persei 8 Lrrrrr's Avatar
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    Re: Proof Hiruzen deserves top ten is not top 5

    Only thing you need is that he defeated the 1st and 2nd edo hokages, and almost Orochimaru, had he been younger. It's Kishi's fault for changing his mind on how strong Hashirama was in Shippuden. What's been done is done, Hiruzen owned him and his brother when they were immortal People can complain all they want, it happened in the manga, so it's true.

    Also, respect the time you spent into this.
     
         

  19. #19
    Senior Member Traffy's Avatar
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    Re: Proof Hiruzen deserves top ten is not top 5

    Not touching the strongest Hokage argument but I totally agree, he's almost always overlooked but hopefully threads like these will show others how strong he really was. I really hope we'll see Hiruzen in his prime, just so he can secure that top 10 spot at the very least.
     
         

  20. #20
    Senior Member Unbiased's Avatar
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    Re: Proof Hiruzen deserves top ten is not top 5

    Quote Originally Posted by Makoto View Post
    I can use the same logic, Hiruzen didn't use anywhere close to his full arsenal either. Rasengan, chidori, genjutsu, etc.
    Thanks for the backup

    Quote Originally Posted by xjimbox View Post
    I think the third had it first... And he's not fodder he was unmatched he's was old and it was 3 against one in a trapped space plus The people he had to fight was his masters in healthy condition and one of his best pupils...

    The odds were not in his favor..
    Minato actually invented the jutsu but he was truly outmatched in every aspect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Koha View Post
    I completely agree. People downplay Hiruzen far too much...
    Thank you

    Quote Originally Posted by ItachiLeeHatake View Post
    Maybe you're right, maybe you're not. I'm not convinced that Hiruzen is top 10, top 15 is reasonable. I appreciate the time and effort you put into this thread to backup your statement.
    Regardless at least you agreed to disagree and were respectful about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by muutobirama3rdraikagemizu View Post
    hashirma , sasuke , itachi , edo madara , minato , nagato , naruto , bee , obito with bijus and gedo , mu , izuna , A stomp hiruzen i dont care how strong he was take away drs and hiruzen = fodder
    ^^^This right here is what a fanboy is.
     
         

  21. #21
    Senior Member xjimbox's Avatar
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    Re: Proof Hiruzen deserves top ten is not top 5

    Quote Originally Posted by Unbiased View Post
    Thanks for the backup



    Minato actually invented the jutsu but he was truly outmatched in every aspect.



    Thank you



    Regardless at least you agreed to disagree and were respectful about it.



    ^^^This right here is what a fanboy is.

    I would like for you to show me were it said that... I don't recall it ever saying minato invented it
     
         

  22. #22
    our last hope Gdamon's Avatar
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    Re: Proof Hiruzen deserves top ten is not top 5

    nice work...
     
         

  23. #23
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    Re: Proof Hiruzen deserves top ten is not top 5

    Quote Originally Posted by Unbiased View Post
    Here you go.
    Thanks that's why I don't remember it's so old haha
     
         

  24. #24
    Senior Member xjimbox's Avatar
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    Re: Proof Hiruzen deserves top ten is not top 5

    Quote Originally Posted by Unbiased View Post
    Here you go.
    Thanks that's why I don't remember it's so old haha
     
         

  25. #25
    Senior Member Unbiased's Avatar
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    Re: Proof Hiruzen deserves top ten is not top 5

    Quote Originally Posted by Makoto View Post
    I can use the same logic, Hiruzen didn't use anywhere close to his full arsenal either. Rasengan, chidori, genjutsu, etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by xjimbox View Post
    I think the third had it first... And he's not fodder he was unmatched he's was old and it was 3 against one in a trapped space plus The people he had to fight was his masters in healthy condition and one of his best pupils...

    The odds were not in his favor..
    Quote Originally Posted by Koha View Post
    I completely agree. People downplay Hiruzen far too much...
    Quote Originally Posted by ItachiLeeHatake View Post
    Maybe you're right, maybe you're not. I'm not convinced that Hiruzen is top 10, top 15 is reasonable. I appreciate the time and effort you put into this thread to backup your statement.
    Quote Originally Posted by muutobirama3rdraikagemizu View Post
    hashirma , sasuke , itachi , edo madara , minato , nagato , naruto , bee , obito with bijus and gedo , mu , izuna , A stomp hiruzen i dont care how strong he was take away drs and hiruzen = fodder
    Quote Originally Posted by xjimbox View Post
    I would like for you to show me were it said that... I don't recall it ever saying minato invented it
    Here you go.
     
         

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