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  1. #1
    Argumentative Bastard Piratefish's Avatar
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    The Shodaime Mizukage: A Hozuki Swordsman?

    In my (VERY) recent thread concerning Suigetsu's strange comments about his brother, I came to wondering: who WAS the Shodaime Mizukage? What were his abilities?

    Here's Suigetsu stating that his brother is the "second coming" of THE demon (there were many "Little Demons" in Kiri, he's not talking about Zabuza):


    The term "Demon" may even be a sort of honorary title bestowed upon masters of the sword. And useless fodder chuunin.

    The Hozuki are very fitting people for the position of Mizukage, the exact term (Water Shadow) even becomes a sort of pun. They're MADE of water, and cast a "water shadow" (would a Hozuki's shadow be as water's? As in, only semi-dark?). They also have a TREMENDOUS geographic combat advantage, just like every known Kazekage.

    The Nidaime Mizukage, better known as Trollkage, was intimately familiar with Hozuki techniques:


    But oddly enough, the fact that he doesn't seem capable of liquefaction (wouldn't he just flow through Gaara's little pyramid without having to resort to Jokey Boy?) actually SUPPORTS the idea of the Shodaime being a Hozuki. And one in direct competition with a more traditional Hozuki, at that.

    Trollkage uses very strange and confusing techniques, hence his name. He focuses on not being hit, while a Hozuki of the water body would just flow around whatever attack used on him, as Suigestu demonstrates in his wartime quarrel with Juugo.

    Trollkage is ruthless. If he believed it necessary, he WOULD kill the reigning Kage of his village. Perhaps that's what he did; perhaps he got tired of repeated sligths to his fighting style, like Sasori, and reacted with violence towards his so-called superior. And then, unlike Sasori, assumed power.

    • Suigetsu's statement about his brother being the "second coming of the demon" make sense if one considers that there was an earlier Hozuki Swordsman who mastered all Seven Swords.
    • Such a person WOULD be on the level of a Kage in combat ability, and would help increase the prestige of the Seven Swordsmen to the levels they enjoy in the modern-day Elemental Countries.
    • He may have made the term "demon" popular in the Mist, and lets face it: The Hozuki ARE kind of demonic: (in chronological order



    • Here's one (almost) fighting on the level of a demon, purely using Hozuki Techniques:

    • The theoretical Hozuki WOULD come into conflict with Trollkage, purely on the basis of personality and fighting style (especially if such a person shares ANY TRAITS AT ALL with his descendant Suigetsu).
    • Trollkage would be ruthless enough (and strong enough) to kill that Hozuki.




    Does this seem like a reasonable analysis on abilities and backstory of the Shodaime Mizukage?

    PS: I apologize, Zabuza-fans, for calling him a "Little Demon". He was a true, hardcore badass, but it was the best way of making my point clear.

    EDIT:
    Small addition which may or may not support my argument:
    The Hozuki seem to have faced the same development as the Senju, Uchiha and Uzumaki, other powerful, founding-era clans, having been reduced to very few members if not only a single one.

    Here's Kabuto saying stuff about the Hozuki clan, and then going: "Don't you know HIM too?" as if Suigetsu is the last one...


    Also, wouldn't it be fitting if Sasuke, one of the last Uchiha, gathered a team consisting of Karin, one of the last Uzumaki, and Suigetsu, one of the last Hozuki. And then there's Juugo, one of the last Juugo. No, really.

    Am I the only one with the impression that the Juugo clan seems to have been more powerful too, at one point, considering Kabuto's comments about it?


    They posess a "special body", an affinity with nature, and the universal capacity for mastering Sage Mode, an ability which seems most aligned with the descendants of the Younger Son.

    Doesn't that sound like a Senju-offshoot to you too?
     
         
    Last edited by Piratefish; 11-24-2012 at 04:50 AM.

  2. #2
    I'm Going Big. SMD. DrProof's Avatar
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    Re: The Shodaime Mizukage: A Hozuki Swordsman?

    You probably could have went into further detail about this subject, but I bet you just wanted to get this off your chest didn't you?

    Anyhow this is really well thought out on many levels, I believe this could be the real meaning..
     
         

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    Argumentative Bastard Piratefish's Avatar
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    Re: The Shodaime Mizukage: A Hozuki Swordsman?

    Quote Originally Posted by DrProof View Post
    You probably could have went into further detail about this subject, but I bet you just wanted to get this off your chest didn't you?

    Anyhow this is really well thought out on many levels, I believe this could be the real meaning..
    I mentioned most of my thoughts on the subject, do you have any possibilites to add?

    Thanks, dude.
     
         

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    Senior Member Unbiased's Avatar
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    Re: The Shodaime Mizukage: A Hozuki Swordsman?

    Why would that "second coming of the demon" not be referring to zabuza. I mean he was known as the demon of the hidden mist
     
         

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    I'm Going Big. SMD. DrProof's Avatar
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    Re: The Shodaime Mizukage: A Hozuki Swordsman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Piratefish View Post
    I mentioned most of my thoughts on the subject, do you have any possibilites to add?

    Thanks, dude.
    Let me look into this topic first. Then i'll see if I have anything to add.
     
         

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    Senior Member Yusuke Urameshi's Avatar
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    Re: The Shodaime Mizukage: A Hozuki Swordsman?

    It's very possible. Nice job.
     
         

  7. #7
    Argumentative Bastard Piratefish's Avatar
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    Re: The Shodaime Mizukage: A Hozuki Swordsman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unbiased View Post
    Why would that "second coming of the demon" not be referring to zabuza. I mean he was known as the demon of the hidden mist
    For one thing, it's hard to be someone's second coming when you're ALIVE AT THE SAME TIME. Mangetsu was a contemporary of Zabuza, and seems to have served in the Seven at the same time he did.

    For another, Mangetsu is probably more skilled, having mastered all Seven Swords. A "second coming" of a completely different clan, background, ability level AND actual ability-set seems more like just an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT PERSON to me.
     
         

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    Senior Member Retsu's Avatar
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    Re: The Shodaime Mizukage: A Hozuki Swordsman?

    I doubt it, I think he'd have had some kind of recognition of that fact, but + rep for thought
     
         

  9. #9
    I'm Going Big. SMD. DrProof's Avatar
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    Re: The Shodaime Mizukage: A Hozuki Swordsman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unbiased View Post
    Why would that "second coming of the demon" not be referring to zabuza. I mean he was known as the demon of the hidden mist
    Indeed, Zabuza could have been the main reference to this term.. However this possibility is way more thought out, and in terms more plausible is it not? ..

    Zabuza was known as the Demon of the Mist due to killing his comrades etc.. As shown in part 1. In my opinion it was pure hype as Kishimoto did a lot of hyping in Part 1 did he not? (Hashirama, Tobirama, Hiruzen, Zabuza etc.. These are all people he hyped in Part 1 due to titles, and references) he didn't show the skill or wasn't said to have the skill to wield all of the seven swordsman swords, as Mangetsu was shown to do..

    This has me to believe that what Suigetsu truly referred to as a "demon" would be those of the Hozuki clan, and that were able to fully use the Seven swords.. It would then make even more sense seeing as the Hozuki are a rather old clan as I presume are they not? Seeing as the Hozuki go as far back as to the time period of the Second Mizukage (trollkage) .. Then probably died out somewhere along the time period of when the Third (maybe, we don't know if he/she was from the Hozuki clan or not), Fourth, and Fifth seeing as they aren't Hozuki clan members.. So it has me to believe that the Mizukage before Trollkage was truly a Hozuki member, as Piratefish stated they must have been prime candidates for the Mizukage position..

    That's why I believe Shodiame Mizukage had to be a Hozuki, and actually was "The First Coming of The Demon"..


     
         
    Last edited by DrProof; 11-24-2012 at 04:49 AM.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Unbiased's Avatar
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    Re: The Shodaime Mizukage: A Hozuki Swordsman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Piratefish View Post
    For one thing, it's hard to be someone's second coming when you're ALIVE AT THE SAME TIME. Mangetsu was a contemporary of Zabuza, and seems to have served in the Seven at the same time he did.

    For another, Mangetsu is probably more skilled, having mastered all Seven Swords. A "second coming" of a completely different clan, background, ability level AND actual ability-set seems more like just an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT PERSON to me.
    Well i'm not gonna stoop to troll level and argue with you over possibilities mainly because your theory is very solid. You should consider the fact that there is also the third mizukage to consider.
     
         

  11. #11
    Senior Member Unbiased's Avatar
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    Re: The Shodaime Mizukage: A Hozuki Swordsman?

    Quote Originally Posted by DrProof View Post
    Indeed, Zabuza could have been the main reference to this term.. However this possibility is way more thought out, and in terms more plausible is it not? ..

    Zabuza was known as the Demon of the Mist due to killing his comrades etc.. As shown in part 1. In my opinion it was pure hype as Kishimoto did a lot of hyping in Part 1 did he not? (Hashirama, Tobirama, Hiruzen, Zabuza etc.. These are all people he hyped in Part 1 due to titles, and references) he didn't show the skill or wasn't said to have to skill to wield all of the seven swordsman swords, as Mangetsu was shown to do..

    This has me to believe that what Suigetsu truly referred to as a "demon" would be those of the Hozuki clan, and that were able to fully use the Seven swords.. It would then make even more sense seeing as the Hozuki are a rather old clan as I presume are they not? Seeing as the Hozuki go as far back as to the time period of the Second Mizukage (trollkage) .. Then probably died out somewhere along the time period of when the Third (maybe, we don't know if he/she was from the Hozuki clan or not), Fourth, and Fifth seeing as they aren't Hozuki clan members.. So it has me to believe that the Mizukage before Trollkage was truly a Hozuki member, as Piratefish stated they must have been prime candidates for the Mizukage position..

    That's why I believe Shodiame Mizukage had to be a Hozuki, and actually was "The First Coming of The Demon"..


    Only one error from me scanning what you said, there is the possibility that the third could be the first coming.
     
         

  12. #12
    Argumentative Bastard Piratefish's Avatar
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    Re: The Shodaime Mizukage: A Hozuki Swordsman?

    Added some stuff about Taka which seemed appropriate, and also maybe enough for a separate thread.

    Didn't I TELL YOU I was an UNSTOPPABLE THEORY FACTORY, Doc? Didn't I?
     
         

  13. #13
    I'm Going Big. SMD. DrProof's Avatar
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    Re: The Shodaime Mizukage: A Hozuki Swordsman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unbiased View Post
    Only one error from me scanning what you said, there is the possibility that the third could be the first coming.
    Eh we know literally nothing on the Third Mizukage, so we can't infer that. The Hozuki Mizukage candidates probably stopped at the Second Mizukage's death..

    Kishi would have probably added something about the Third Mizukage if he was anything relevant to the story.


    Quote Originally Posted by Piratefish View Post
    Added some stuff about Taka which seemed appropriate, and also maybe enough for a separate thread.

    Didn't I TELL YOU I was an UNSTOPPABLE THEORY FACTORY, Doc? Didn't I?
    You're going a bit off topic with the Karin/Juugo addition, but nice job.. Also read what I posted above the large text with red bold it helps explain your theory I believe.
     
         
    Last edited by DrProof; 11-24-2012 at 04:56 AM.

  14. #14
    Argumentative Bastard Piratefish's Avatar
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    Re: The Shodaime Mizukage: A Hozuki Swordsman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unbiased View Post
    Well i'm not gonna stoop to troll level and argue with you over possibilities mainly because your theory is very solid. You should consider the fact that there is also the third mizukage to consider.
    Thanks man. I honestly don't know where to look for info on the Third one though, he seems a bit of a black hole as far as manga info, or even implications, are concerned.
     
         

  15. #15
    Senior Member Unbiased's Avatar
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    Re: The Shodaime Mizukage: A Hozuki Swordsman?

    Quote Originally Posted by DrProof View Post
    Eh we know literally nothing on the Third Mizukage, so we can't infer that. The Hozuki Mizukage candidates probably stopped at the Second Mizukage's death..

    Kishi would have probably added something about the Third Mizukage if he was anything relevant to the story.




    You're going a bit off topic with the Karin/Juugo addition, but nice job.. Also read what I posted above the large text with red bold it helps explain your theory I believe.
    Well the first mizukage has literally no information on him other then he started the village so that puts him in the same category as the third.

    Quote Originally Posted by Piratefish View Post
    Thanks man. I honestly don't know where to look for info on the Third one though, he seems a bit of a black hole as far as manga info, or even implications, are concerned.
    There is no information that's why he still is just as likely as the first.
     
         

  16. #16
    I'm Going Big. SMD. DrProof's Avatar
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    Re: The Shodaime Mizukage: A Hozuki Swordsman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unbiased View Post
    Well the first mizukage has literally no information on him other then he started the village so that puts him in the same category as the third.
    Ha, true. Kishi really needs to clear up every Kage. Anyways I did my part, providing an analysis.
     
         

  17. #17
    Senior Member Unbiased's Avatar
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    Re: The Shodaime Mizukage: A Hozuki Swordsman?

    Quote Originally Posted by DrProof View Post
    Ha, true. Kishi really needs to clear up every Kage. Anyways I did my part, providing an analysis.
    Good job dude, hopefully some light comes into this segment in the manga.
     
         

  18. #18
    Argumentative Bastard Piratefish's Avatar
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    Re: The Shodaime Mizukage: A Hozuki Swordsman?

    Made a separate thread concerning Taka and their backgrounds:
    http://www.narutobase.net/forums/sho...d.php?t=279939
     
         

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