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  1. #251
    Més que un club ReLax -'s Avatar
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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Quote Originally Posted by Escorpiius View Post


    I agree but why are scoring stats always the most important? How about how many saves goalkeepers made, how about how many passes completed, how about the assists stats, how about the ball won stats?

    Goal statistics are overrated in my personal opinion to give the Ballon D'Or. Sure, it's perhaps the most influential and primordial statistic but the other stats are completely disregarded as well as the other elements I mentioned in my previous posts.

    There's nothing that makes me say that Messi didn't deserve it but I do think that in 2011 and especially 2010, someone deserve it more.

    Anyways, I'll end it here. There's no way I can undermine Messi as a great player (surely the Best in the World right now) but that doesn't change the fact in my eyes that Personal awards are being screwed up ever since Statistics and Talent overtook Accomplishments, Influence and Hardwork as criteria!

    I've been seeing Bale since his beginning and is in fact one of my favorite players in EPL. But believe me, he's not that good in defense and I really don't think he'll do any good defensively to Barcelona. Speaking of defense, Puyol has just been ruled out of Euro2012.

    Your positioning of Bale is interesting but I'm still doubtful. Pique dreams of Shakira's hips more than ball (can't blame him), Puyol is getting older and I wonder how long he'll stick, it's still not sure in what form Abidal will come after his operation and neither Bale and Alves are assurance policies in terms of defense. I see you ruled out Busquets which doesn't surprise coming from you. What will also be interesting is that - is there certain players which Vilanova don't particularly appreciate or someone who he'd like to see more often in starting line...?

    There'll be lots of key players on the market. I guess, it's because of that Financial Fair-Play Policy issued by UEFA that's going to be activated around 2013-2014. That means, the next 2 transfer markets might be among the Hottest Ever. By the way, what's your take on that policy? We never talked about this - it won't be such a bad discussion...

    I won't comment on City-United game again. Anyways, if United don't win it - it's because of that 4-4 draw which they themselves screwed up. I don't see City losing right now; especially after the pathetic Away form of QPR and the exceptional Home form of Citizens.

    Juventus are back Champions. I really like that; considering they were my favorite Italian team before their Scandal.

    United are gunning for Hazard and Modric but I'm doubtful for both considering the prices. SAF is right to finalize Kagawa & Siggourdsson first. Then be hopeful to clinch either Modric or Hazard. If not, they can still do another low-transfer with Joe Allen or Lucas Moura. But all-in-all, first I hope that Ferguson has realized that his midfield deserves reinforcements and that his formation needs to play more in the central.
    You can blame the fans on that one. Its just not in football, but majority of the sport excluding any racing ones that depend on stats (NHL, NBA, Rugby, etc). The fans usually look at stats and always argue that as their main point. As I said before Messi has captured at least 3 titles every season including being the top scorer in general of that season. I agree to some point that either Sneijder, Xavi should have won that year, but I'm not surprised Messi did. A lot weren't impressed with his WC performance although I don't deem it too be bad because every time he got either double/triple teamed and he was some what behind almost every goal by Argentina and the post was his best friend. I mean Barcelona that year won about 3-4 titles, including going to CL semi and Xavi having a good season including winning the WC that same year. Sneijder won every title possible with Inter and went to the finals only to lose Spain. Messi was the top scorer of that season (I think). He also had a big hand getting Barcelona were they are at the moment and he went to the quarter final? Or last 16 to be eliminated by Germany.

    I think with Messi he shows a lot of consistency in the past years which is also observed. It seems every season he gets better, and he still holds 13 (after Bilboa game maybe 14) titles in 4 years. Messi has had a lot of accomplishments by breaking many records for example this year he has scored 72 goals the record most goals held was 3rd place the great Pele 66, second Mueller 67, and now Messi 72 with 2 games still had hand expect it to be 75 or more. He has won titles and has worked hard also, we can't say he hasn't. He's also a big influence for Barcelona. Everything you've listed I think Messi matches all that including his personal achievement (statistic/talent) for the past 4 years.

    I was reading a funny article online a guy said soon its not going to be called world record in football, but Messi records at the pace he's going at.

    I have followed Bale a little last year and most of this season. He has great talent, he's more of a player like Alves joining in on attack tho, but Alves has better defensive skills, while Bale has more height and power. I've been reading recent reports that Alves may leave Barcelona, maybe so they can sign Bale to replace him?

    Puyol out of Euro puts a major doubt in the defending champions, but I think they can still pull it off with Ramos practicing central defense with Madrid he could be vital for this years success again.

    There are reports of Pique not being, so happy at Barcelona? They've been dismissed, but recently I hear SaF would like to also bring Pique back, with Alves also on Man U radar, but due to his age and the price they don't agree. Puyol and Abidal are getting old and both have maximum one year if not less I'd say. I want Barcelona to sign Juve Vidal, or go for some German defenders. I mean most Spain defenders are attackers also lol Well Busquets doesn't have much strength and he dives/play acts way to much mainly he ruins Barca reputation. In Spain national team Alanso is always choose a head of Busquets. If Busquets was behind are defense? I don't even want to see that horror he may go down play acting giving opposition team a break way. I like that line up with Alves and Bale on the far end joining in with wingers. In your case are defense is the problem currently. Only time will tell what Vilanova does with the team, or players. Tello is another great talent, will see if he gets more time.

    The "Financial Fair-Play Policy" will benefit some clubs, but also be bad in some ways. I mean some players who want to join a specific club, but due to their spending already he may have to wait another year or join another club/stick with his current and hope next year he gets an offer from them, which could end bad. It would help out a lot of youth in their academy, but can also be very risky. I think overall it's good in general, I mean clubs like Real Madrid, Man City, Chelsea, and now PSG will always have money to spend on these players, but they also ruin some of their careers ie: Tevez, Kaka, and etc. It will have a boundary and these struggling Euro tops may get some chance (Inter/Liverpool). In general it may benefit a lot of clubs and may rise competition in a lot of leagues including Europe. It will be good for Barcelona sinc ehe only make 1-2 big signings a year, but than again atm the we need more than 1-2 players.

    Well this transfer is indeed going to be crazy with such big talents like Falcao, Cavani, Hulk, RVP, Suarez, Neymar, Hazard, Gotze, Llorente, Martinez, Higuain, Sahin, Robben/Ribery, Alba, Alaba (Bayern), Modric, Sneijder, and etc are all on the market, or looking for a move.

    That list just gives me the creep who will land who. All thought I'm surprised Higuain was interested with PSG, but Mou doesn't want to let him go anywhere. Higuain is mervously of a player and can be like Benzema if he wanted to, but I guess Mou keeps him the same way he was from the beginning. I remember Benz was so bad last year and after a bit of motivation from outside competition (Adebayor) and Mou on his case he mixed himself up and can also make brilliant plays and has increased his vision on the pitch, I'd like to see Higuain work on that more instead of being a pure striker, which he is great at.

    Suarez name has been ruined with the whole racism thing and Juve are opening doors for him and either RVP or Cavani. Sahin is known as "Madrid flop" all tho he faced injury most the season and just didn't get time to play another talents career maybe ruined hope he moves on, or Madrid give him a bigger role, but with Ozil being first and Kaka second looks tough way too much competition for this talent, but Bayern want him. Robben/Ribery will most likely stay with Bayern, but they are still in doubt. Barcelona want Alaba/Alba both one from Bayern (defender), second from Valencia (R/LB), United are also keen on signing Valencia Alba. Falcao pretty much single handly took Atheltico Madrid to Europa victory, congrats to them on out playing Bilboa, all tho Bilboa played well just didn't meet the mark, but Atheltico Madrid has a chance to finish 4 in Spain if the succeed next game and Malaga screws up a loss or draw for Malaga is needed to finish 5th and a win for A. Madrid, Aguero, Forlan, and Reyes struggled to do this, but Falcao, Tarun, and Deigo did it. Falcao won with Porto last year and this year won with A. Madrid.

    My God, the Hulk just went incredible..





    Link if vid doesn't work.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsVfnZKzGz8


    The battle of the young three Neymar, Hazard, and Gotze



    El Tigre Falcao...



    They call him Lion King lol



    Defensive Mid...Vidal



    Well just some big names in next transfer window, As I said it sends shivers down my back seeing all these and wondering were they will go if not staying. RVP have Podolski and are close to sign M'Vila if RVP still stays could be a strong squad.

    As far as United goes, Vidal, Gotze, Sneijder, Hazard, Modric, and Martinez, are all mid fielders take your pick and don't cheap out. Martinez is the cheapest being around 20-30 million.

    I just spent an hr and half writing this! had to do a lot of research on somethings before posting may still be off, but I need a break from football now lol thank god for Euros! at least 30-40% of the time I was watching some of these players/team vids.
     
         
    Last edited by ReLax -; 05-10-2012 at 04:30 PM.

  2. #252
    Legendary Sage of Konoha Michael92's Avatar
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    Re: General Football Debates!

    32 wins (new record), 121 goals (one heck of a good record in Spain), 89 + In goal difference (New Record), 100 points! (New Record) and 9 points down to barca at the end of the season. What a season Madrid :D
     
         

  3. #253
    ǝsɔoɹdııns Escorpiius's Avatar
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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Westen View Post
    32 wins (new record), 121 goals (one heck of a good record in Spain), 89 + In goal difference (New Record), 100 points! (New Record) and 9 points down to barca at the end of the season. What a season Madrid :D
    F**K, I'm still in a football hangover. I just can't describe what I feel now and certainly not my state during both matches.

    Anyways, a brilliant season in all aspects for Madrid indeed. If you think of it, all leagues have been outstanding. Juventus didn't lose a single match. Dortmund completely dominated Bayern in all matches to clinch Bundesliga+Cup.

    And what else to say on City/United? The most tight battle of this 2011-2012 leagues. United came so close...I'm seriously still astounded. Many would say that City deserved it more but well, United fought very well - you can't deny that. Despite key injuries throughout the season for us, many young players learning their ways and a much more limited finance compared to City, we fought till the end in definitely the craziest and toughest league of all. It was down to ONLY goal difference. In my eyes, both deserved the EPL title and here's my volley of Congrats

    Quote Originally Posted by ReLax - View Post
    You can blame the fans on that one. Its just not in football, but majority of the sport excluding any racing ones that depend on stats (NHL, NBA, Rugby, etc). The fans usually look at stats and always argue that as their main point. As I said before Messi has captured at least 3 titles every season including being the top scorer in general of that season. I agree to some point that either Sneijder, Xavi should have won that year, but I'm not surprised Messi did. A lot weren't impressed with his WC performance although I don't deem it too be bad because every time he got either double/triple teamed and he was some what behind almost every goal by Argentina and the post was his best friend. I mean Barcelona that year won about 3-4 titles, including going to CL semi and Xavi having a good season including winning the WC that same year. Sneijder won every title possible with Inter and went to the finals only to lose Spain. Messi was the top scorer of that season (I think). He also had a big hand getting Barcelona were they are at the moment and he went to the quarter final? Or last 16 to be eliminated by Germany.

    I think with Messi he shows a lot of consistency in the past years which is also observed. It seems every season he gets better, and he still holds 13 (after Bilboa game maybe 14) titles in 4 years. Messi has had a lot of accomplishments by breaking many records for example this year he has scored 72 goals the record most goals held was 3rd place the great Pele 66, second Mueller 67, and now Messi 72 with 2 games still had hand expect it to be 75 or more. He has won titles and has worked hard also, we can't say he hasn't. He's also a big influence for Barcelona. Everything you've listed I think Messi matches all that including his personal achievement (statistic/talent) for the past 4 years.

    I was reading a funny article online a guy said soon its not going to be called world record in football, but Messi records at the pace he's going at.

    I have followed Bale a little last year and most of this season. He has great talent, he's more of a player like Alves joining in on attack tho, but Alves has better defensive skills, while Bale has more height and power. I've been reading recent reports that Alves may leave Barcelona, maybe so they can sign Bale to replace him?

    Puyol out of Euro puts a major doubt in the defending champions, but I think they can still pull it off with Ramos practicing central defense with Madrid he could be vital for this years success again.

    There are reports of Pique not being, so happy at Barcelona? They've been dismissed, but recently I hear SaF would like to also bring Pique back, with Alves also on Man U radar, but due to his age and the price they don't agree. Puyol and Abidal are getting old and both have maximum one year if not less I'd say. I want Barcelona to sign Juve Vidal, or go for some German defenders. I mean most Spain defenders are attackers also lol Well Busquets doesn't have much strength and he dives/play acts way to much mainly he ruins Barca reputation. In Spain national team Alanso is always choose a head of Busquets. If Busquets was behind are defense? I don't even want to see that horror he may go down play acting giving opposition team a break way. I like that line up with Alves and Bale on the far end joining in with wingers. In your case are defense is the problem currently. Only time will tell what Vilanova does with the team, or players. Tello is another great talent, will see if he gets more time.

    The "Financial Fair-Play Policy" will benefit some clubs, but also be bad in some ways. I mean some players who want to join a specific club, but due to their spending already he may have to wait another year or join another club/stick with his current and hope next year he gets an offer from them, which could end bad. It would help out a lot of youth in their academy, but can also be very risky. I think overall it's good in general, I mean clubs like Real Madrid, Man City, Chelsea, and now PSG will always have money to spend on these players, but they also ruin some of their careers ie: Tevez, Kaka, and etc. It will have a boundary and these struggling Euro tops may get some chance (Inter/Liverpool). In general it may benefit a lot of clubs and may rise competition in a lot of leagues including Europe. It will be good for Barcelona sinc ehe only make 1-2 big signings a year, but than again atm the we need more than 1-2 players.

    Well this transfer is indeed going to be crazy with such big talents like Falcao, Cavani, Hulk, RVP, Suarez, Neymar, Hazard, Gotze, Llorente, Martinez, Higuain, Sahin, Robben/Ribery, Alba, Alaba (Bayern), Modric, Sneijder, and etc are all on the market, or looking for a move.

    That list just gives me the creep who will land who. All thought I'm surprised Higuain was interested with PSG, but Mou doesn't want to let him go anywhere. Higuain is mervously of a player and can be like Benzema if he wanted to, but I guess Mou keeps him the same way he was from the beginning. I remember Benz was so bad last year and after a bit of motivation from outside competition (Adebayor) and Mou on his case he mixed himself up and can also make brilliant plays and has increased his vision on the pitch, I'd like to see Higuain work on that more instead of being a pure striker, which he is great at.

    Suarez name has been ruined with the whole racism thing and Juve are opening doors for him and either RVP or Cavani. Sahin is known as "Madrid flop" all tho he faced injury most the season and just didn't get time to play another talents career maybe ruined hope he moves on, or Madrid give him a bigger role, but with Ozil being first and Kaka second looks tough way too much competition for this talent, but Bayern want him. Robben/Ribery will most likely stay with Bayern, but they are still in doubt. Barcelona want Alaba/Alba both one from Bayern (defender), second from Valencia (R/LB), United are also keen on signing Valencia Alba. Falcao pretty much single handly took Atheltico Madrid to Europa victory, congrats to them on out playing Bilboa, all tho Bilboa played well just didn't meet the mark, but Atheltico Madrid has a chance to finish 4 in Spain if the succeed next game and Malaga screws up a loss or draw for Malaga is needed to finish 5th and a win for A. Madrid, Aguero, Forlan, and Reyes struggled to do this, but Falcao, Tarun, and Deigo did it. Falcao won with Porto last year and this year won with A. Madrid.

    My God, the Hulk just went incredible..





    Link if vid doesn't work.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsVfnZKzGz8


    The battle of the young three Neymar, Hazard, and Gotze



    El Tigre Falcao...



    They call him Lion King lol



    Defensive Mid...Vidal



    Well just some big names in next transfer window, As I said it sends shivers down my back seeing all these and wondering were they will go if not staying. RVP have Podolski and are close to sign M'Vila if RVP still stays could be a strong squad.

    As far as United goes, Vidal, Gotze, Sneijder, Hazard, Modric, and Martinez, are all mid fielders take your pick and don't cheap out. Martinez is the cheapest being around 20-30 million.

    I just spent an hr and half writing this! had to do a lot of research on somethings before posting may still be off, but I need a break from football now lol thank god for Euros! at least 30-40% of the time I was watching some of these players/team vids.


    I'm seriously not in a state to debate how great Messi is Just here - all the records Messi have yet to break. It's silly but well, it's for fun.

    The reason I see Barca's defense to become more and more key, is because more and more teams are beginning to learn the tactic to NOT lose against Barcelona. Personally, as long as a team is winning, you can't really find an appropriate tactic. But after being on the summit for 3 years, they won't win much in this season except a possible Copa Del Rey. All-in-all, teams are going to analyze how to counter Barcelona and the matches they'll study the most are the ones that Barcelona couldn't win. And it's no hidden fact that the biggest weakness in Barcelona is its defense.

    Btw, Vidal just said twice that he won't leave Juventus. The likes of Modric and Bale will speak of their transfers/stay as soon as the CL Final is over. Tottenham ended 4th which means that if Chelsea wins the Champions League, they'll be reverted in Europa League. Not playing CL for a 2nd season will surely catalyst the departure of Bale and Modric. Now, it'll be interesting what happens if they remain in the CL.

    Coming to the "Financial Fair-Play Policy", I'd say it's gonna produce elitism in most leagues and that doesn't enchant me too much. It would be extremely profitable for United but going by an unbiased decision, I don't think that it's going to increase competition like you say. It would take much unpredictability in competitions IMO. Clubs that are going to benefit the most of this Policy are going to be clubs having great young talents or great academy schools; notably: Barcelona, United, Arsenal, Ajax, Sporting CP or even Liverpool. As you said, many young talents are going to get primed with that and as such, academies are going to be keys. It's not just a boundary of money for Madrid, City, PSG, Chelsea. It's even a statement that now, there'll be 2 markets - the actual one and one that concerns to lure youths in academies. This is something those "rich" teams didn't do much and now, they'll need to invest a lot more in academies.

    Now, obviously, the "Policy" may turn things for the better as you said but I'm skeptical. For that to happen, many teams will have to retain most of their talents till the policy is implemented. However, many are thinking to get a better revenue now cause they won't be having the same price in the next 2 years. Regardless of their form! Teams like Dortmund, Bilbao, Tottenham, Napoli, Arsenal, Porto, Ajax, Juventus, Valencia ect... hold the key of either increasing competition or depleting it by selling most of their most talented players in the next 2 years. This was your list and I bolded the ones that are in teams I mentioned above - Falcao, Cavani, Hulk, RVP, Suarez, Neymar, Hazard, Gotze, Llorente, Martinez, Higuain, Sahin, Robben/Ribery, Alba, Alaba (Bayern), Modric, Sneijder ect... This clearly shows that those teams are more on the verge of depleting competition post-policy. In fact, I wouldn't be erroneous that players like Bale, Ericksen, Subotic, Vidal, Lavezzi, RVP ect... might also leave in the next 2 years. Perhaps, Arsenal can recover considering their academies' prowess but they still won't be able to challenge for the title then. As you says, this will encourage every top team to do only 1-2 signings each year post-implementation of the policy. Take a team like Chelsea or Inter - Can they rebuild a young team within 2 years cause they need youth in their squad. This policy is encouraging teams to believe in their youngsters but they are also inciting talented young players to leave within 2 years' time...

    And apart from boundaries on transfers' spending, what is interesting is how much players will accept their new salaries? Players in Madrid and City are going to see a huge decrease in their salaries. The Policy says in a round-about way that you can't expend more than what you gain in a season. For example, if a medium team gets $ 200 Million in a season, they must afford the transfers economics and all the salaries in $200 million. Now, obviously, teams like City/Madrid gain like much more every year but I'm pretty sure, the salaries are extremely hefty. Cup wins, League wins, CL participation are all going to give increased revenues but in case, there were to be a drought in trophies, the balance may change.

    Coming to the transfers speculations, it's indeed a top list that is salivating. I'd like to see who'll bet on aging talents like Sneijder, Robben, Ribery, Forlan given that younger talents are in prime. On the battle Neymar, Hazard, and Gotze - well, Gotze's long injury is going to deplete a bit his value and it has ironically increased the value of his teammate Kagawa. Hazard is a top-talent since some time now. I get all Ligue 1 matches and he's pretty consistent. Hopefully, he won't get injured anytime soon. Neymar is fiery talent but as everyone, I won't know his mettle unless he comes to play in Europe. By the way, his price won't decrease with the Policy since he plays in Brazil and the Policy concerns all European teams. Expect some crazy price for this crazy talent.
     
         

  4. #254
    Més que un club ReLax -'s Avatar
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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Quote Originally Posted by Escorpiius View Post
    I'm seriously not in a state to debate how great Messi is Just here - all the records Messi have yet to break. It's silly but well, it's for fun.

    The reason I see Barca's defense to become more and more key, is because more and more teams are beginning to learn the tactic to NOT lose against Barcelona. Personally, as long as a team is winning, you can't really find an appropriate tactic. But after being on the summit for 3 years, they won't win much in this season except a possible Copa Del Rey. All-in-all, teams are going to analyze how to counter Barcelona and the matches they'll study the most are the ones that Barcelona couldn't win. And it's no hidden fact that the biggest weakness in Barcelona is its defense.

    Btw, Vidal just said twice that he won't leave Juventus. The likes of Modric and Bale will speak of their transfers/stay as soon as the CL Final is over. Tottenham ended 4th which means that if Chelsea wins the Champions League, they'll be reverted in Europa League. Not playing CL for a 2nd season will surely catalyst the departure of Bale and Modric. Now, it'll be interesting what happens if they remain in the CL.

    Coming to the "Financial Fair-Play Policy", I'd say it's gonna produce elitism in most leagues and that doesn't enchant me too much. It would be extremely profitable for United but going by an unbiased decision, I don't think that it's going to increase competition like you say. It would take much unpredictability in competitions IMO. Clubs that are going to benefit the most of this Policy are going to be clubs having great young talents or great academy schools; notably: Barcelona, United, Arsenal, Ajax, Sporting CP or even Liverpool. As you said, many young talents are going to get primed with that and as such, academies are going to be keys. It's not just a boundary of money for Madrid, City, PSG, Chelsea. It's even a statement that now, there'll be 2 markets - the actual one and one that concerns to lure youths in academies. This is something those "rich" teams didn't do much and now, they'll need to invest a lot more in academies.

    Now, obviously, the "Policy" may turn things for the better as you said but I'm skeptical. For that to happen, many teams will have to retain most of their talents till the policy is implemented. However, many are thinking to get a better revenue now cause they won't be having the same price in the next 2 years. Regardless of their form! Teams like Dortmund, Bilbao, Tottenham, Napoli, Arsenal, Porto, Ajax, Juventus, Valencia ect... hold the key of either increasing competition or depleting it by selling most of their most talented players in the next 2 years. This was your list and I bolded the ones that are in teams I mentioned above - Falcao, Cavani, Hulk, RVP, Suarez, Neymar, Hazard, Gotze, Llorente, Martinez, Higuain, Sahin, Robben/Ribery, Alba, Alaba (Bayern), Modric, Sneijder ect... This clearly shows that those teams are more on the verge of depleting competition post-policy. In fact, I wouldn't be erroneous that players like Bale, Ericksen, Subotic, Vidal, Lavezzi, RVP ect... might also leave in the next 2 years. Perhaps, Arsenal can recover considering their academies' prowess but they still won't be able to challenge for the title then. As you says, this will encourage every top team to do only 1-2 signings each year post-implementation of the policy. Take a team like Chelsea or Inter - Can they rebuild a young team within 2 years cause they need youth in their squad. This policy is encouraging teams to believe in their youngsters but they are also inciting talented young players to leave within 2 years' time...

    And apart from boundaries on transfers' spending, what is interesting is how much players will accept their new salaries? Players in Madrid and City are going to see a huge decrease in their salaries. The Policy says in a round-about way that you can't expend more than what you gain in a season. For example, if a medium team gets $ 200 Million in a season, they must afford the transfers economics and all the salaries in $200 million. Now, obviously, teams like City/Madrid gain like much more every year but I'm pretty sure, the salaries are extremely hefty. Cup wins, League wins, CL participation are all going to give increased revenues but in case, there were to be a drought in trophies, the balance may change.

    Coming to the transfers speculations, it's indeed a top list that is salivating. I'd like to see who'll bet on aging talents like Sneijder, Robben, Ribery, Forlan given that younger talents are in prime. On the battle Neymar, Hazard, and Gotze - well, Gotze's long injury is going to deplete a bit his value and it has ironically increased the value of his teammate Kagawa. Hazard is a top-talent since some time now. I get all Ligue 1 matches and he's pretty consistent. Hopefully, he won't get injured anytime soon. Neymar is fiery talent but as everyone, I won't know his mettle unless he comes to play in Europe. By the way, his price won't decrease with the Policy since he plays in Brazil and the Policy concerns all European teams. Expect some crazy price for this crazy talent.
    I saw that already, but I actually laughed. I mean all those people listed are either retired, or on the verge to retire and the age is around 30-40, and how old is Messi? 24? I think about 30, he'll clear 75% of those records with ease too. Messi already has 51 goals at age 24, while Raul (top CL scorer) has 71 at age (36?). That means Messi has 12 years to score 21 goals to beat that record lol make it done in two years actually. Apperence is just stupid I mean even Ronaldo has more because of age difference. The level people go to bring someone down is unbelievable.

    Pele 1000+ goal (which about 80-85%) was scored in Brazil, so really doesn't bother me. All the top players in Europe I doubt anyone reached 1000 goal due to the competition (Maradona, Cyruff, Ronaldo (9), and etc). I can put down Messi being the all time top scorer in Europe right now by the time he reaches his retirement. By the way Madrid Benzema wants to play a long side Messi

    And that tactic is playing defensively and relying on counter attacks...As SaF said last year that is cowardly of playing, there is no better glory in beating Barcelona by playing the football you've been playing for years. Man U game VS Barcelona last CL final, they play their style and attacked with good defense play I mean even Messi they barely double or triple teamed him, they were focused on Xavi and Inesita, the first half was electrifying, but the second half Man U just lost control of the game. It's true we need 1-2 more good central defenders and trust me will be set and back on our game. This year Barcelona have won 8 out of 25 games when Messi has not scored which gives them a 32 win %. Pique has been way to busy with Shakira hips, I hope they (Spain) don't have a problem in Euros because of it with Puyol out Pique or Ramos have to take charge and majority of Spain L/R back are offensive players (Ramos, Arbeloa, Alba, etc).

    Vidal is saying that now, but we don't know what the future holds more importantly his fate. Anything is possible. I recently read an article were it states Bale is keen on a move to MADRID!! If they remain in CL I don't know they are losing Adebayor unless they buy him and he's been key for them also. I mean looking back and seeing that every team that has beaten Barcelona in the semi final has won the CL that year, Man U (07/08), Inter (09/10), and now Chelsea (11/12), Maybe. Bayern has lost three in a row also, so they don't seem in form.

    I just read another article were Robben states Mou told him after the final whistle at Madrid, "Now that you have beaten us go to the final and win (beat Chelsea)." lol one hand he is supporting Chelsea on the other not raeally I guess he wants to win the first CL with Chelsea and he had a much younger squad at the time and couldn't if this one does win, it will haunt Mou lol

    I think it will benefit them and other clubs still. I mean look at Valencia shockingly to say they have won CL twice (I think), they had a fantastic squad when Villa and Silva were there. This is the thing with these small clubs they lose their biggest talent, but with the FFPP clubs will think twice before signing someone due to restriction. City in the past three years signed Tevez, Yaya, Dezko, Silva, Nasri, Aguero, and Clichy. Those are some big names (maybe except for Clichy, but he's pretty good at times). I mean each of those players must have cost $30+ million. With the policy clubs can't really gamble like that. In some clubs atm they take player and pay at the end of the year, I'm sure that won't be happening with FFPP. Coaches and board will have to think smarter, who from the academy is in top form, what position is he playing, after that should we sign someone for a certain position that needs strength. It'll all count on using your head and maybe help save some money for next window.

    The players I have listed will most likely go, but if FFPP took place now guaranteed more than half those transfer wouldn't happen. Which would bring up still a lot of competition. At the very present it would benefit Spain, as (IMO) we've seen some rare talent come from there and most Argentina/Brazil players would love to play their with FFPP not affecting them will benefit Spain also.

    Coming to the salary part is another big hitter and demand on some players to leave ie (Kaka, Higuain). The players that don't play much games will be obviously cut down as example Benzema is favorite over Higuain and Ozil over Kaka. This will make players want to leave and play somewhere else were not only do they get starting position, but maybe slight better salary. This could have them depart either struggling clubs like Chelsea, Liverpool, Inter, and so on that still have a big name. I mean all in all if it takes place will see how it really turns out, but I'm sure by the time it happens a lot of players will already be in a top clubs, but it will benefit the smaller ones more.

    The thing about older talent is that they bring in experience, which will be a big benefit for some clubs, but also a waste of money if the player doesn;'t live up to expectation. Gotze is still pretty well off, Neymar destination is pretty much Barcelona it's inevitable, unless Pele tells him to play somewhere else in order to over take Messi in Europe. Ronaldo (9), Mercelo, are all telling Neymar to join Madrid, Ronbinho, Alves are saying join Barcelona. As far as Hazard is concerned he has already stated he will play for Manchester next year, but is keeping everyone in suspense on which one he'll play with. Kagawa and Lewandowski are on SaF radar, two young talents. United want to pay $30 million for Hazard, but Lillie wants $41 million, which City is offering to pay (with FFPP this would probably not happen as the restriction, and wages is concerned United would have been favorite indefinite)
     
         

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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Quote Originally Posted by Escorpiius View Post
    Well, I usually don't believe much in myths trend but this one is interesting because it also had some factual meaning. I guess, that winning against Barcelona (especially when reigning champions) gives your the feel to have win in your most strenuous match of the season. I don't about Barcelona about best offensive team but I do maintain that it's the hardest to defend against Barcelona. It exhausts really mentally and kudos to teams who did that in CL. All-in-all, this trend is firstly a psychological boost and afterwards, it's a fun myth.

    Well, I guess I'd repeat myself but in my eyes, football is for victory. It's a sport and as such, the sportsmen' job is to clinch for glories, victories and prizes. We are selfish to demand to be entertained. Cause the footballer's job is to strive to win a match. That's why they are paid. That's why they train for. That's why they became footballers. We should keep in mind that they are no entertainers. It's all the better when they also entertain us in package. But we are not really right to force all teams to practice entertaining football. Victory should be prized before entertainment. And we should value Chelsea for the way they striven for victory and not deplore how they did not entertain us as we wished for.

    I have to disagree here. I agree football is about victory, but entertainment comes with the package. Barcelona are the best team in the world at this time and in the past 3-4 years no team has accomplished as much as they have. The thing with Barcelona is they play an attractive game of football which is a lot of entertainment for others. Rooney stated many times during the El Clasico on twitter after the game speaking of either Messi/Xavi/Ineista and how stunning they played and glided down the field who have indeed not only clinched victories, but entertained everyone.

    Skills = Entertainment.

    Vision, Pass, Shoots, Volley, dribbles, are all a part of an entertainment. Neymar, Hazard are players which entertain the audience as well as playing a very attractive game.

    The best clubs in Europe in their time (Madrid, Bayern, Milan, Liverpool, Barca) they played attractive football, with a lot of entertainment as well as getting key victories in their own respective era.

    Chelsea style against Barca/Bayern is nothing attractive nor entertainment, sure they won and went into history, but that level of football played would be expected from a 2nd division maybe mid table club.

    Everyone mock Chelsea line up 1-0-10, its pretty much how they played. This performance by Chelsea didn't live up to the Euro heavyweight performance you'd expect. Barca VS ManU and Inter VS Bayern final were much more entertaining and world class performance.

    I'm not going to take anything away from Chelsea, I already stated I liked a lot of their defensive saves, but the halfway part was just sad.

    Chelsea nevertheless throw one stone and hit two birds. Bayern finished with no trophies coach will be sacked been two years trophless, players like Robben and Ribery will most likely be trasnfered, so bayern could get younger players.

    Tottenham is pretty much going to lose Modric and Bale, Modric Man U, Chelsea and recent reports Madrid are keen on. Bale Barca and now Madrid have also joined the race seems this win for Chelsea will convert Tottenham in mid table.

    The transfer window will go nuts this transfer I have a feeling City, Psg will spend a lot I'm guessing Chelsea will also, along with Madrid and I hope Barca makes some key signings too. Juventus needs to built a stronger squad and they eyed up a lot of players and will have funds.
     
         
    Last edited by ReLax -; 05-20-2012 at 08:53 AM.

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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Quote Originally Posted by ReLax - View Post
    I have to disagree here. I agree football is about victory, but entertainment comes with the package. Barcelona are the best team in the world at this time and in the past 3-4 years no team has accomplished as much as they have. The thing with Barcelona is they play an attractive game of football which is a lot of entertainment for others. Rooney stated many times during the El Clasico on twitter after the game speaking of either Messi/Xavi/Ineista and how stunning they played and glided down the field who have indeed not only clinched victories, but entertained everyone.

    Skills = Entertainment.

    Vision, Pass, Shoots, Volley, dribbles, are all a part of an entertainment. Neymar, Hazard are players which entertain the audience as well as playing a very attractive game.

    The best clubs in Europe in their time (Madrid, Bayern, Milan, Liverpool, Barca) they played attractive football, with a lot of entertainment as well as getting key victories in their own respective era.

    Chelsea style against Barca/Bayern is nothing attractive nor entertainment, sure they won and went into history, but that level of football played would be expected from a 2nd division maybe mid table club.

    Everyone mock Chelsea line up 1-0-10, its pretty much how they played. This performance by Chelsea didn't live up to the Euro heavyweight performance you'd expect. Barca VS ManU and Inter VS Bayern final were much more entertaining and world class performance.

    I'm not going to take anything away from Chelsea, I already stated I liked a lot of their defensive saves, but the halfway part was just sad.

    Chelsea nevertheless throw one stone and hit two birds. Bayern finished with no trophies coach will be sacked been two years trophless, players like Robben and Ribery will most likely be trasnfered, so bayern could get younger players.

    Tottenham is pretty much going to lose Modric and Bale, Modric Man U, Chelsea and recent reports Madrid are keen on. Bale Barca and now Madrid have also joined the race seems this win for Chelsea will convert Tottenham in mid table.

    The transfer window will go nuts this transfer I have a feeling City, Psg will spend a lot I'm guessing Chelsea will also, along with Madrid and I hope Barca makes some key signings too. Juventus needs to built a stronger squad and they eyed up a lot of players and will have funds.
    I sure hope that Tottenham don't sell both of them. Modric is the one that is likely to leave due to his age and his desire for trophies. Bale says that he wants to stay at the club because he is settled but I don't know... Now that Abidal has retired, there is all this speculation about Bale moving to Barca, even though it would cost chuck loads of Euros to get him. Hopefully they will settle on Alba instead; apparently he was one of the players who trained at La Masia with your Xavis and Iniestas. Maybe even Alaba?

    While Chelsea probably did not deserve to win, congratulations to them and to their Interim Coach Di Matteo. Shame there will be another season without Champion's League Football at White Hart Lane but we really only have ourselves to blame for the 4th placed finish the season.
     
         

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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Quote Originally Posted by Phonjo View Post
    I sure hope that Tottenham don't sell both of them. Modric is the one that is likely to leave due to his age and his desire for trophies. Bale says that he wants to stay at the club because he is settled but I don't know... Now that Abidal has retired, there is all this speculation about Bale moving to Barca, even though it would cost chuck loads of Euros to get him. Hopefully they will settle on Alba instead; apparently he was one of the players who trained at La Masia with your Xavis and Iniestas. Maybe even Alaba?

    While Chelsea probably did not deserve to win, congratulations to them and to their Interim Coach Di Matteo. Shame there will be another season without Champion's League Football at White Hart Lane but we really only have ourselves to blame for the 4th placed finish the season.
    The fact that they are out of CL will be a big factor for their star players (Bale, Modric, and even Van Der Vaart). Bale is saying that now, but the second an actual offer comes especially now I'm sure he'll exit, but than again he may not. I read an article not too long ago, but it was said that Bale was keen on a move to Madrid. Jordi Alba is wanted by ManU and Barcelona, and yes he is from the Barcelona youth academy. Bayern Alaba is also on Barcelona list a long with Milan Thaigo Silva.

    As I said Chelsea were destined to win. I personally don't think they played a game final worthy (IMO), but they won. Its sad a team like Chelsea struggled in the league were as Hotspurs fought hard, but because of this CL rule, they are out of CL next year, but than Chelsea deserved this also and another chance, you can see the redeemed themselves just at the end.
     
         

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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Quote Originally Posted by ReLax - View Post
    The fact that they are out of CL will be a big factor for their star players (Bale, Modric, and even Van Der Vaart). Bale is saying that now, but the second an actual offer comes especially now I'm sure he'll exit, but than again he may not. I read an article not too long ago, but it was said that Bale was keen on a move to Madrid. Jordi Alba is wanted by ManU and Barcelona, and yes he is from the Barcelona youth academy. Bayern Alaba is also on Barcelona list a long with Milan Thaigo Silva.

    As I said Chelsea were destined to win. I personally don't think they played a game final worthy (IMO), but they won. Its sad a team like Chelsea struggled in the league were as Hotspurs fought hard, but because of this CL rule, they are out of CL next year, but than Chelsea deserved this also and another chance, you can see the redeemed themselves just at the end.
    Yeah I know; if you can beat Barcelona while 2-0 down with only 10 men at the Nou Camp then I guess you deserve another shot at it next year.

    Reports also say that Assou-Ekotto wants to leave if they did not qualify for Champion's League next season as well... Well hopefully we can sign Vertonghen but even so losing a player like Modric or VDV will turn us into a Europa-Quality team. I guess Arsenal were faced with this predicament this season but RVP was able to play out of his skin and they got 3rd.

    It's just sad that hard work and consistency is overlooked for some one-off achievements in this case.
     
         

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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Quote Originally Posted by ReLax - View Post
    I have to disagree here. I agree football is about victory, but entertainment comes with the package. Barcelona are the best team in the world at this time and in the past 3-4 years no team has accomplished as much as they have. The thing with Barcelona is they play an attractive game of football which is a lot of entertainment for others. Rooney stated many times during the El Clasico on twitter after the game speaking of either Messi/Xavi/Ineista and how stunning they played and glided down the field who have indeed not only clinched victories, but entertained everyone.

    Skills = Entertainment.

    Vision, Pass, Shoots, Volley, dribbles, are all a part of an entertainment. Neymar, Hazard are players which entertain the audience as well as playing a very attractive game.

    The best clubs in Europe in their time (Madrid, Bayern, Milan, Liverpool, Barca) they played attractive football, with a lot of entertainment as well as getting key victories in their own respective era.

    Chelsea style against Barca/Bayern is nothing attractive nor entertainment, sure they won and went into history, but that level of football played would be expected from a 2nd division maybe mid table club.

    Everyone mock Chelsea line up 1-0-10, its pretty much how they played. This performance by Chelsea didn't live up to the Euro heavyweight performance you'd expect. Barca VS ManU and Inter VS Bayern final were much more entertaining and world class performance.

    I'm not going to take anything away from Chelsea, I already stated I liked a lot of their defensive saves, but the halfway part was just sad.

    Chelsea nevertheless throw one stone and hit two birds. Bayern finished with no trophies coach will be sacked been two years trophless, players like Robben and Ribery will most likely be trasnfered, so bayern could get younger players.

    Tottenham is pretty much going to lose Modric and Bale, Modric Man U, Chelsea and recent reports Madrid are keen on. Bale Barca and now Madrid have also joined the race seems this win for Chelsea will convert Tottenham in mid table.

    The transfer window will go nuts this transfer I have a feeling City, Psg will spend a lot I'm guessing Chelsea will also, along with Madrid and I hope Barca makes some key signings too. Juventus needs to built a stronger squad and they eyed up a lot of players and will have funds.
    I'll reply to your previous post as soon as I get some time. I thought to reply to it before the final started yesterday but got busy. In fact, I missed the first 5 minutes of the final.

    Well, you know me and when I say that some of my favorite players include Ronaldinho, Zidane, CR7 ect... I guess, you do understand that I value players who entertain a lot.

    Still, I find us to be over-demanding. There are different levels of priorities in nowadays' professional modern football. I think players value victories first most. Then come their career and salaries. Then their personal and team achievements. Afterwards, come pleasure of football and entertainment of fans. It's great to see great talents entertain us but let's admit it that it's fair enough for them to prioritize their achievements and salaries first. Whether we like it or not, whether we find it sad or not, we can't deny that football is now more about money and stats. You said it yourself in quite some posts that it's now part of the world of football and we just can't deny it.

    We'll always be in awe with players with amazing skills in whatever form. But we need to grasp that footballers' job include entertainment but it's not among their Big 3 priorities and objectives as per their contract. It's true that we'll always remember the more entertaining and attractive finals. Like few people will remember a 0-0 final.

    Still, Chelsea were underdogs. They had lacking/suspensions, aging players, a dismal start of season & minimal world-class players. In those conditions, they couldn't deliver on the entertainment package. So why risk to burn themselves onto something they can't do when they can find another way around to complete their major priorities... They needed to work hard with concentration, they needed to work for team's purpose and they needed to win. They fulfilled those 3; which are core to football.

    That's one reason why Neymar is risky. He wants to entertains fans and take pleasure. Well, that's Brazilian culture. A nice and pure culture. But come to Europe where team hardwork, money and victories are primed. How will he cope with harsh realities of football?

    I'd like to go back to the 5th or 6th match of the season where there were United v/s Chelsea in EPL. In that match, Chelsea (under AVB) keep attacking and attacked while United attacked also. Unfortunately, Chelsea were inefficient while United buried 3 in 1st half. It was entertaining but it was also suicidal football as they tried something that was not their forte. Sure, Torres did that horrendous miss in that match and they score one. But, offensive attractive football needs to be efficient. And efficiency comes with players with creative thinking. Let's face it, Chelsea didn't have that while Bayern had. Yet, they clinched the victory.

    What I wanna say is that Chelsea's tactics sound easy on paper but it's hard to do that. "This performance by Chelsea didn't live up to the Euro heavyweight performance" - All this is easy to say but when we think of it, so few teams could do what they did. Take Bayern, they kept bombadring Cech for 70 minutes, break the lock at 82nd minute but they defended with the whole team on Chelsea's corner but they still conceded a goal. That was the sole moment when Bayern defended with 11 players but they failed to do it. It's far from easy to do it. Even top-class team like Barcelona fail in that domain. Remember Milan in group stages. It's so easy to say that Chelsea chosen the coward' way but we should also realize how difficult it must have been to resist for whole match against Bayern' armada. So, we should hail Chelsea a little more; instead of repeating that final wasn't up to the level.

    Chelsea are not the Best team in Europe but they were the Most Deserving of this year in Europe.

    Ribery is overrated. I think it's shown tonight. He's good but doesn't step up his game when the level is increased. He did a good 1st leg against Madrid. But was sub-par in both the 2nd leg against Madrid and the Final. No wonders, why he can't save the France National team.

    Tottenham have been cultivating gold mine since some years now. Let's who's going to harvest from it. Last year, it was Arsenal with Clichy, Nasri, Fab ect... This year, those 2 spots belong to Dortmund and Tottenham mainly. I agree that the transfer season will be crazy.

    Quote Originally Posted by ReLax - View Post
    Its sad a team like Chelsea struggled in the league were as Hotspurs fought hard, but because of this CL rule, they are out of CL next year, but than Chelsea deserved this also and another chance, you can see the redeemed themselves just at the end.
    Let's make an analysis of all teams in CL and respective leagues to find some logic.

    This was an inverted season for English teams. The two Manchesters were absolutely disastrous in European matches but were fabulous in EPL. In fact, they delivered the most thrilling fight in EPL since years. On the other hand, we got Chelsea. Pathetic in EPL but heroic in European performances. Concluding with a first CL trophy against all odds.

    The only logic that I find in this craziness is that English teams couldn't cope on both field. It was either the League or Champions League. The low-teams in EPL aren't that strong but they fight with too much will and heart.

    Madrid and Barcelona decided to play on all fronts. Result: Barcelona burnt themselves in league while Madrid was ousted in Copa Del Rey. These 2 teams normally should be able to play on all competitions; given their force and squad. Yet, they didn't won the CL. They did honorable performance in CL since there's a lack of competition in Liga.

    Unlike in EPL, Liga Giants don't need to choose between CL or League. They can clinch both since they'll barely lose points against teams below them. There's not that security in EPL. Madrid and Barca were a bit unlucky to be unable to continue their CL rampage despite them, having the opportunity since they had monumental lead over other teams in Liga and had brilliant squads.

    Bayern tried to play on all fields - Cup, League, CL but lost everything at the end. Milan AC tried the same thing and same result as Bayern.

    If we go by logic, their greed for everything, cost them everything while their major opponents - Dortmund and Juventus - had only the League glory in mind and they clinched it.

    A morality of this is that it's better to target a single objective instead of all. United and City and Chelsea chosen to do sacrifices, Barcelona/Madrid tried hard to prove that wrong but they couldn't and Juventus and Dortmund exemplified it the most.

    Then we have teams like Liverpool and Inter who, in searching for their lost glory, simply kept wandering and lost everything. It's better to be team like Atletico, Bilbao or Arsenal.

    Sure, Arsenal didn't won anything (except RVP) butt hey did an okay season with their own means. Including a nice 3-0 comeback effort in CL against Milan or the composed win against EPL champions, City. Athletico ended comfortably in Liga and gained Europa. Bilbao proved their worth with 2 finals.
     
         

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    Re: General Football Debates!

    it looks like Escorpiius finally recovered from his football shock
     
         

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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Quote Originally Posted by Totsuka No Tsurugi View Post
    it looks like Escorpiius finally recovered from his football shock
    Haha, seems like it
     
         

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    Re: General Football Debates!

    ok this started to get annoying, am not a fans of chelsea or something like that, but i've been reading the article from soccer site in my country that the mass media in Germany stated that chelsea triumph against bayern is a joke, seriously ?

    even the great johan cryuff claim that chelsea victory in the champions league final is disgrace to football,
    Johan Cruyff has hit out at the manner of Chelsea's Champions League triumph and claims he'd rather not win the trophy than adopt their negative tactics.

    The Dutch legend is not shy in expressing his forthright views especially when it comes to his own thoughts on how the 'beautiful game' ought to be played.

    Cruyff, a pioneer of the 'Total Football' philosophy with legendary coach Rinus Michels, has also been outspoken in his criticism of the style adopted by Real Madrid under Jose Mourinho in recent years.

    Indeed, he also had harsh words to say about his beloved Holland after their defeat to Spain in the 2010 World Cup final, accusing Bert Van Marwijk's side of adoping "anti-football" tactics.

    Chelsea are the latest team to feel the wrath of the former Ajax and Barcelona star for the manner of their victory over Bayern Munich on Saturday night.

    The ultra-cautious Blues were second best throughout the contest, a fact highlighted by Didier Drogba's 88th minute equaliser coming directly from their first corner of the match.

    Not that the Blues fans were complaining, though, as after 120 minutes of nerve shredding action they watched their side triumph 4-3 in the penalty shootout to capture their first ever European Cup.

    However, Cruyff was far from impressed and claims he'd take no pleasure from winning Europe's premier club competition in the manner that English giants did. "Chelsea winning the CL-final is a defeat for proper football. I'd rather not win it, then to have to play this way," said the 65-year-old.

    Chelsea also came in for criticism following their semi-final win over last year's winners Barcelona for similar adopting defensive tactics. But as Sport360°'s Eddie Taylor wrote then, why should teams apologise for playing to their strengths?
    why is that ? what's wrong with negative football ?
    you don't expect them to attack when their opponent is attacking them right ? its not like putting 5-9 players in their own field is against the rules,

    its natural when one team attack the opposite team are going to defend their territory, if we are using Cruyff logic in football then the winner will not be determined by the result, it will be decided with static from the entire match, so team who has more possession and shoot on goal will automatically win the game,

    this is madness just because the Italian trample all over total football in the 80's 90's and early 2000, by this statement alone Cruyff is calling all team who won a big tournament with negative football method is not worth winning the trophy,

    victory is all that matter to us it doesn't have to be pretty, history only remember winner, as long it doesn't break the rules, the victory is victory, whether its total football or using catenaccio method.
     
         

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    Re: General Football Debates!

    man seriously how could chelsea win!!..i lost 400 bucks...shit...but congrtz to them i guess...
     
         

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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Quote Originally Posted by Escorpiius View Post
    I'll reply to your previous post as soon as I get some time. I thought to reply to it before the final started yesterday but got busy. In fact, I missed the first 5 minutes of the final.

    Well, you know me and when I say that some of my favorite players include Ronaldinho, Zidane, CR7 ect... I guess, you do understand that I value players who entertain a lot.

    Still, I find us to be over-demanding. There are different levels of priorities in nowadays' professional modern football. I think players value victories first most. Then come their career and salaries. Then their personal and team achievements. Afterwards, come pleasure of football and entertainment of fans. It's great to see great talents entertain us but let's admit it that it's fair enough for them to prioritize their achievements and salaries first. Whether we like it or not, whether we find it sad or not, we can't deny that football is now more about money and stats. You said it yourself in quite some posts that it's now part of the world of football and we just can't deny it.

    We'll always be in awe with players with amazing skills in whatever form. But we need to grasp that footballers' job include entertainment but it's not among their Big 3 priorities and objectives as per their contract. It's true that we'll always remember the more entertaining and attractive finals. Like few people will remember a 0-0 final.

    Still, Chelsea were underdogs. They had lacking/suspensions, aging players, a dismal start of season & minimal world-class players. In those conditions, they couldn't deliver on the entertainment package. So why risk to burn themselves onto something they can't do when they can find another way around to complete their major priorities... They needed to work hard with concentration, they needed to work for team's purpose and they needed to win. They fulfilled those 3; which are core to football.

    That's one reason why Neymar is risky. He wants to entertains fans and take pleasure. Well, that's Brazilian culture. A nice and pure culture. But come to Europe where team hardwork, money and victories are primed. How will he cope with harsh realities of football?

    I'd like to go back to the 5th or 6th match of the season where there were United v/s Chelsea in EPL. In that match, Chelsea (under AVB) keep attacking and attacked while United attacked also. Unfortunately, Chelsea were inefficient while United buried 3 in 1st half. It was entertaining but it was also suicidal football as they tried something that was not their forte. Sure, Torres did that horrendous miss in that match and they score one. But, offensive attractive football needs to be efficient. And efficiency comes with players with creative thinking. Let's face it, Chelsea didn't have that while Bayern had. Yet, they clinched the victory.

    What I wanna say is that Chelsea's tactics sound easy on paper but it's hard to do that. "This performance by Chelsea didn't live up to the Euro heavyweight performance" - All this is easy to say but when we think of it, so few teams could do what they did. Take Bayern, they kept bombadring Cech for 70 minutes, break the lock at 82nd minute but they defended with the whole team on Chelsea's corner but they still conceded a goal. That was the sole moment when Bayern defended with 11 players but they failed to do it. It's far from easy to do it. Even top-class team like Barcelona fail in that domain. Remember Milan in group stages. It's so easy to say that Chelsea chosen the coward' way but we should also realize how difficult it must have been to resist for whole match against Bayern' armada. So, we should hail Chelsea a little more; instead of repeating that final wasn't up to the level.

    Chelsea are not the Best team in Europe but they were the Most Deserving of this year in Europe.

    Ribery is overrated. I think it's shown tonight. He's good but doesn't step up his game when the level is increased. He did a good 1st leg against Madrid. But was sub-par in both the 2nd leg against Madrid and the Final. No wonders, why he can't save the France National team.

    Tottenham have been cultivating gold mine since some years now. Let's who's going to harvest from it. Last year, it was Arsenal with Clichy, Nasri, Fab ect... This year, those 2 spots belong to Dortmund and Tottenham mainly. I agree that the transfer season will be crazy.

    It's true we are demanding and thats because we do spend are money into this also (ordering it on tv, going to live games, buying merchandize, and etc), so doesn't that give us the right to be a bit demanding? These football earn some of there wages off us, and we are the ones who show up everyday to watch them play, so isn't it there jobs to entertain us, while we show our support to them? Its true, I spoke about money a lot in the past, but hardly about success. Players nowadays will chase after money majority of them in there youth at least once they get there final few years they decide to get serious and don't think of money much and want to play football for enjoyment.

    Well look at players like Sahin, Hazard, Neymar, and etc. Why are they wanted by many clubs? Because they are entertaining to watch, but no club can guarantee success with them. Sahin was very promising injury this year held him back, but he's now known as the flop in Madrid, Hazard and Neymar day will come to see we will see how they are. A club when signing a player they go for the entertainment package first Ronaldo, Zidane, Messi, CR, Ronaldinho, and so forth some have come and entertained us while winning titles for country and club. Ibra, Robinho, Pato, etc. They have been able to deliver on the entertainment package as well as doing decent with there country/clubs, but not much success as you'd expect from them.

    As to my point many of the youngster are brought due to entertainment to the clubs, as there is no guarantee if they will succeed there, but a club only signs them because of the hype and the way they play (entertainment). So, to a certain extent the club due sign for entertainment, as a lot of youngster thats all they have to offer coming to the certain country (Spain, England, Italy, etc) only time will tell how they do.

    Victory is always key, but it the way Chelsea did it will echo for years. Chelsea lost a few players, but they still have a fantastic squad and as the commentary said they had the better bench from Bayern. Bayern top defender this year Alaba was also suspended. Older players come with experience, so thats really an excuse look at Barca with Puyol, Valdes, Xavi, and Abidal? United with Rio, Giggs, Scholes, Van Der Sar etc. Casllias Madrid, Milan even has many elder players, but they seem to be still fighting and doing well this excuse won't fly with Chelsea neither.

    Drogba older player, but amazing and came off a fantastic 2 lag with Barca including beating Liverpool with the winning goal, so he was on fire actually. Mata has been key to Chelsea midfield and has had a fantastic first season in EPL. Lampard is a veteran, but nevertheless is a class act. Well, Torres scored against Barca, does that count for something to put him as little threat at least? (lol) Cole/Luiz/Cahill are great defenders/L/R back, world class in my books. And Chelsea still had other good players like Malouda, Kalou, Sturridge. I don't see how they were the underdogs? Just because they had a bad season? What did Bayern win this season? What did they win last season? Oh yeah...Nothing. They suffered 5 defeats in a row to Dortmund. Chelsea came into the final beating Braca and winning the FA Cup, Bayern came, but just beating Madrid in PK, and getting thrashed by Dortmund 5-2 in a cup final. Who should the pressure really be on?

    Defence isn't easy, but its actually the easier play, then actual attacking football. Bayern defence at the end was due to exhausted players because of the amount of running and pushing they did. They played a much harder game than Chelsea its obvious. Defending at the end results in a goal, did you know about 3 years ago when I was on a ESPN website it was said 70-80% of the teams that defend a one goal lead end up conceding a goal? IMO this results on many different things, players tired, and/or loss of focus due to excitement. At the end it seemed like Bayern thought they won, were as Chelsea played as they had nothing to lose really, which led to the goal, but even than I ask you if Chelsea scored a goal with the entire Bayern team defending, why didn't they do this from the start? They wouldn't have seen the entire team defending than, but yet they stayed with there defence style.

    You talk about this defence tactic which many think is negative tactic. Than why is it we complain about play acting/diving? A player play acts/dives from slight contacts just so he can win the possession and/or get the other player sent off, to stand a better chance on securing a victory, but yet we call that cheating, but yet when a team decides to defend the entire game while one team is really playing 80% of the football we call that fair? Chelsea is known in general to have a good defence (Terry, Ivanovic, Cole, Luiz, Cahill), so for them taking on that style isn't really a big problem, if the beat Barca with that I'm sure they can beat any club using that play. A lot of clubs can play defensively and thats if they start like that from the beginning of the game.

    Lets recall last year Madrid got the best of Barca with that style, but many Madrid present/past players didn't appreciate that and many supporters didn't like it either, despite that they had a 1-2-1 VS Barca using that tactic only losing the one game due to a red card and than with 10 man down they start attacking. They won Copa Del Rey that year. ManU SaF was asked if he'd use that same tactic as Mou tried attack in the start VS Barca got thrashed 5-0, but got the best of them with defence style and seeing the ManU got bested 2 years ago taking Barcelona on in an attacking base football, but would he go to this style? He replied, no and wanted to stick with his style of play. They had the best defence last year, it was hyped as the best offence VS best defence, the first half was electrifying, and the second half started off well till Barca took complete control over the game. If United used that tactic easily could have beaten Barcelona especially since Van Der Sar performance was right there with Messi/Xavi/Iniesta that game.

    My point being that game like the final shouldn't be played as how Chelsea played it, at the end Bayern played as champions, but Chelsea stole the the cup and are now champions of Europe this year.

    I really find it funny on what Cyruff said points taken from him, but he went a bit to harsh in his interview about Chelsea,

    "Chelsea winning the CL-final is a defeat for proper football. I'd rather not win it, then to have to play this way," said the 65-year-old.

    I agree with defeat for proper football, but credit does still need to be given to the champions.

    Before ppl start thinking wrong I don't mean to say Chelsea didn;t deserve it, but they could have win it in a more better and proper fashion. This victory made history, but they have yet to put a print in Europe top flight.

    As Platini said Best finals witness were the Istanbul, Milan VS Liverpool 3-3 Liverpool coming back from three goals down and winning in PK, and the Barcelona VS ManU 3-1 last year. We witness true football in these games.

    Quote Originally Posted by Escorpiius View Post
    Let's make an analysis of all teams in CL and respective leagues to find some logic.

    This was an inverted season for English teams. The two Manchesters were absolutely disastrous in European matches but were fabulous in EPL. In fact, they delivered the most thrilling fight in EPL since years. On the other hand, we got Chelsea. Pathetic in EPL but heroic in European performances. Concluding with a first CL trophy against all odds.

    The only logic that I find in this craziness is that English teams couldn't cope on both field. It was either the League or Champions League. The low-teams in EPL aren't that strong but they fight with too much will and heart.

    Madrid and Barcelona decided to play on all fronts. Result: Barcelona burnt themselves in league while Madrid was ousted in Copa Del Rey. These 2 teams normally should be able to play on all competitions; given their force and squad. Yet, they didn't won the CL. They did honorable performance in CL since there's a lack of competition in Liga.

    Unlike in EPL, Liga Giants don't need to choose between CL or League. They can clinch both since they'll barely lose points against teams below them. There's not that security in EPL. Madrid and Barca were a bit unlucky to be unable to continue their CL rampage despite them, having the opportunity since they had monumental lead over other teams in Liga and had brilliant squads.

    Bayern tried to play on all fields - Cup, League, CL but lost everything at the end. Milan AC tried the same thing and same result as Bayern.

    If we go by logic, their greed for everything, cost them everything while their major opponents - Dortmund and Juventus - had only the League glory in mind and they clinched it.

    A morality of this is that it's better to target a single objective instead of all. United and City and Chelsea chosen to do sacrifices, Barcelona/Madrid tried hard to prove that wrong but they couldn't and Juventus and Dortmund exemplified it the most.

    Then we have teams like Liverpool and Inter who, in searching for their lost glory, simply kept wandering and lost everything. It's better to be team like Atletico, Bilbao or Arsenal.

    Sure, Arsenal didn't won anything (except RVP) butt hey did an okay season with their own means. Including a nice 3-0 comeback effort in CL against Milan or the composed win against EPL champions, City. Athletico ended comfortably in Liga and gained Europa. Bilbao proved their worth with 2 finals.
    The thing with La Liga is club like Barcelona and Madrid are looked at as dream teams and/or XI teams. Valencia, Atheltico Madrid, Athletic Bilbao, are all good clubs and fight, but they can't match Barcelona, or Madrid and even when they seem like coming up on the ladder they lose key players. Valencia in the last two years lost Villa, Silva, and Mata, just wow those are some heavy hitters imagine them still there with Soldado? It would be force of an offence to mess with. They (Valencia) are on the verge of losing Alba this year. Athletic Bilbao did you know the average age of players in the starting line up for them is 24 years old? This Euro watch Soldado/Llorente/Martinez/Alba will be observed by many, all who play in La Liga either they may go to Barca/Madrid, or Serie A/EPL. Spain produces brilliant talents even the star of England this year Augero (winning goal to win the league) was neutered in Atheltico Madrid, as well as Torres in his glory days with them and Liverpool. English fans/press are the worst in judging players like Torres/Silva/Mata/Fabregas/Alonso/Augero all came they were criticized heavily and were stated not strong enough for EPL, but yet this season Augero/Silva were the stars in EPL a long with others. Thats the thing with La Liga once a club seems like they are going to arise they go under little construction again, and its a repeat cycle, this fair policy may benefit La Liga in way.

    EPL has four balance teams United, City, Chelsea, and Aresnal they have their ups and downs, but compete a long with clubs like Tottenham, Newcastle, and Liverpool knocking on the door (well Liverpool not so much but they are still in top 8 somewhere). They don't have a squad like Barcelona, or Madrid, its like Raul said if Barcelona, or Madrid played in EPL they'd dominate with mild difficulty, this is a clear assumption as we would never know the outcome, and we would at least need to remove United and City/Chelsea out of the picture, but Barca and Madrid would still put up a huge fight with them there.

    Serie A is also well balanced with Milan, inter, Juventus, Napoli, Roma, and Lazio all around one another.

    This is the reason why Barcelona and Madrid try to compete for everything because they have a squad that can do it, but there biggest competition is themselves. Its like my friend said City/Chelsea make up Madrid and United/Arsenal make up Barcelona.

    Barcelona has a lot of respect towards United and there football/style. As I do and admire them the way they play and how they don't change tactic when facing off with us. Vidic said before the start of this season that Barcelona makes United get stronger and they (United) are obsessed with beating Barcelona. Many Barcelona players have even shown interest to play with United if ever they were to departure and got a chance to go there at that time. Pique, Alves, and Busquets are actually on United list I will speak about the transfer now.

    Transfer:

    Shockingly Hazard signed with Chelsea? Gerrard has said he believes Hazard will make it big in EPL. Hazard stated he was going to wear a blue jersey next year, and than he said he was going to sign with one of the Manchester teams and now he's with Chelsea? He states he went to them because of there CL victory? Glory hunter much? I actually think knowing SaF he didn't want to pay the price asked for Hazard and City didn't really attempt for him yet, which is why Chelsea took advantage. Rumours have it they are after Hulk, and/or Falcao. Hulk being the closets to sign soon. Many believe he would be the bigger signing than Hazard and more promising good thing with Hulk is he plays winger, so Torres still has a chance lol

    Shinji Kagawa is on his way to United? Some say he hasn't put the pen to the deal yet, but he will be there next year.

    Arsenal are stump ATM they have Podolski, and are after M'Vila (who decides his future after Euros), along with Biglia, but face tough competition with Madrid for Biglia. If they sign both players this will help Van Persie signing a new contract with them, as Arsenal will be stronger, sadly Barcelona rejected bids for Tello and Cuenca who Wenger wanted.

    Fernando Llorente has shown interest in EPL with both Arsenal and United lurking around and waiting for a chance, but he will cost $30+ million.

    Bale is wanted by Barcelona and United, but they aren't as worried for him Alba who plays similar position is costing Barcelona and United 12 million were as Bale would cost 40+ million, so they'll try for Alba, but he seem like he'll be going back home to Barcelona (Alba is from Barca youth academy).

    Bayern defender Alaba is on the list of both Barcelona and Madrid a long with Chelsea defender Ivanovic who's wanted by both too and Juventus. Ivanovic is opened to talks and wants to hear offers.

    Thaigo Silva is wanted many by United, Barcelona, City, and Madrid. Barcelona maybe willing to swoop Thaigo Silva for Thaigo Alcantara, and they also have Chelsea defender Luiz on the list, as well do City.

    Kompany has recent declined a move to Barcelona, as news also report Augero and Silva reject a move to Madrid to stay at City. Silva was suppose to move to Madrid instead of City, but when Mou came in they didn't advance his transfer talks, otherwise he was at the door step, but now Mou wants him with him and Aguero anything can happen.

    Alves is said to be transferred as United being favs to land him, but SaF doesn't agree with his price due to his age.

    Pique has been off his game and reports have it he may depart all tho i doubt it, but United once again would love a reunion with him.

    Chelsea are willing to pay Everton $20 million for Fellaini.

    Tevez and Adyebyor said to be transferred this year also, but it depends on who City may sign also.

    Chelsea have kept Di Matteo in the dark at the moment as they are trying to lure Pep down, despite Pep saying he needs a break his break could cut short, as he will have 2-3 months to decide. Chelsea is even willing to spend $250 million for no one other than Messi, if Pep comes and they thing he can convince the Argentine to come down, but I hardly doubt it even if Pep becomes Chelsea manager.

    Lucas Moura in talks with Madrid ATM.

    Xabi Alonso hasn't penned a new deal with Madrid yet, so he may depart? He did reveal he wanted to end his career at Liverpool.

    Higuain and Kaka futures are still in the balance.

    England seems like getting many talents, but we don't know how far some clubs will go, but United and City may face heavy competition next year if most these go thru.

    What are your thoughts on these?

    Also recently Italy has been hit with match fixing again and Juventus is on the ropes, sad time for Italy ATM. The Italian coach was so pissed, he was willing to pull his country out of Euro because of how ashamed he is with them. 19 players/coach got arrest and 12 of them came from the top Italy clubs.

    A lot of typing (arg). Anyways no rush I'll be keen on waiting for your response. And I apologize for the late response.

    PS: Some mistakes were made, but too lazy to fix them
     
         
    Last edited by ReLax -; 06-07-2012 at 10:15 AM.

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    Re: General Football Debates!

    to many words!
     
         

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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha seeker View Post
    to many words!
    This is a general football discussion and that is what we are discussing.
     
         

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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Quote Originally Posted by ReLax - View Post
    It's true we are demanding and thats because we do spend are money into this also (ordering it on tv, going to live games, buying merchandize, and etc), so doesn't that give us the right to be a bit demanding? These football earn some of there wages off us, and we are the ones who show up everyday to watch them play, so isn't it there jobs to entertain us, while we show our support to them? Its true, I spoke about money a lot in the past, but hardly about success. Players nowadays will chase after money majority of them in there youth at least once they get there final few years they decide to get serious and don't think of money much and want to play football for enjoyment.

    Well look at players like Sahin, Hazard, Neymar, and etc. Why are they wanted by many clubs? Because they are entertaining to watch, but no club can guarantee success with them. Sahin was very promising injury this year held him back, but he's now known as the flop in Madrid, Hazard and Neymar day will come to see we will see how they are. A club when signing a player they go for the entertainment package first Ronaldo, Zidane, Messi, CR, Ronaldinho, and so forth some have come and entertained us while winning titles for country and club. Ibra, Robinho, Pato, etc. They have been able to deliver on the entertainment package as well as doing decent with there country/clubs, but not much success as you'd expect from them.

    As to my point many of the youngster are brought due to entertainment to the clubs, as there is no guarantee if they will succeed there, but a club only signs them because of the hype and the way they play (entertainment). So, to a certain extent the club due sign for entertainment, as a lot of youngster thats all they have to offer coming to the certain country (Spain, England, Italy, etc) only time will tell how they do.

    Victory is always key, but it the way Chelsea did it will echo for years. Chelsea lost a few players, but they still have a fantastic squad and as the commentary said they had the better bench from Bayern. Bayern top defender this year Alaba was also suspended. Older players come with experience, so thats really an excuse look at Barca with Puyol, Valdes, Xavi, and Abidal? United with Rio, Giggs, Scholes, Van Der Sar etc. Casllias Madrid, Milan even has many elder players, but they seem to be still fighting and doing well this excuse won't fly with Chelsea neither.

    Drogba older player, but amazing and came off a fantastic 2 lag with Barca including beating Liverpool with the winning goal, so he was on fire actually. Mata has been key to Chelsea midfield and has had a fantastic first season in EPL. Lampard is a veteran, but nevertheless is a class act. Well, Torres scored against Barca, does that count for something to put him as little threat at least? (lol) Cole/Luiz/Cahill are great defenders/L/R back, world class in my books. And Chelsea still had other good players like Malouda, Kalou, Sturridge. I don't see how they were the underdogs? Just because they had a bad season? What did Bayern win this season? What did they win last season? Oh yeah...Nothing. They suffered 5 defeats in a row to Dortmund. Chelsea came into the final beating Braca and winning the FA Cup, Bayern came, but just beating Madrid in PK, and getting thrashed by Dortmund 5-2 in a cup final. Who should the pressure really be on?

    Defence isn't easy, but its actually the easier play, then actual attacking football. Bayern defence at the end was due to exhausted players because of the amount of running and pushing they did. They played a much harder game than Chelsea its obvious. Defending at the end results in a goal, did you know about 3 years ago when I was on a ESPN website it was said 70-80% of the teams that defend a one goal lead end up conceding a goal? IMO this results on many different things, players tired, and/or loss of focus due to excitement. At the end it seemed like Bayern thought they won, were as Chelsea played as they had nothing to lose really, which led to the goal, but even than I ask you if Chelsea scored a goal with the entire Bayern team defending, why didn't they do this from the start? They wouldn't have seen the entire team defending than, but yet they stayed with there defence style.

    You talk about this defence tactic which many think is negative tactic. Than why is it we complain about play acting/diving? A player play acts/dives from slight contacts just so he can win the possession and/or get the other player sent off, to stand a better chance on securing a victory, but yet we call that cheating, but yet when a team decides to defend the entire game while one team is really playing 80% of the football we call that fair? Chelsea is known in general to have a good defence (Terry, Ivanovic, Cole, Luiz, Cahill), so for them taking on that style isn't really a big problem, if the beat Barca with that I'm sure they can beat any club using that play. A lot of clubs can play defensively and thats if they start like that from the beginning of the game.

    Lets recall last year Madrid got the best of Barca with that style, but many Madrid present/past players didn't appreciate that and many supporters didn't like it either, despite that they had a 1-2-1 VS Barca using that tactic only losing the one game due to a red card and than with 10 man down they start attacking. They won Copa Del Rey that year. ManU SaF was asked if he'd use that same tactic as Mou tried attack in the start VS Barca got thrashed 5-0, but got the best of them with defence style and seeing the ManU got bested 2 years ago taking Barcelona on in an attacking base football, but would he go to this style? He replied, no and wanted to stick with his style of play. They had the best defence last year, it was hyped as the best offence VS best defence, the first half was electrifying, and the second half started off well till Barca took complete control over the game. If United used that tactic easily could have beaten Barcelona especially since Van Der Sar performance was right there with Messi/Xavi/Iniesta that game.

    My point being that game like the final shouldn't be played as how Chelsea played it, at the end Bayern played as champions, but Chelsea stole the the cup and are now champions of Europe this year.

    I really find it funny on what Cyruff said points taken from him, but he went a bit to harsh in his interview about Chelsea,

    "Chelsea winning the CL-final is a defeat for proper football. I'd rather not win it, then to have to play this way," said the 65-year-old.

    I agree with defeat for proper football, but credit does still need to be given to the champions.

    Before ppl start thinking wrong I don't mean to say Chelsea didn;t deserve it, but they could have win it in a more better and proper fashion. This victory made history, but they have yet to put a print in Europe top flight.

    As Platini said Best finals witness were the Istanbul, Milan VS Liverpool 3-3 Liverpool coming back from three goals down and winning in PK, and the Barcelona VS ManU 3-1 last year. We witness true football in these games.



    The thing with La Liga is club like Barcelona and Madrid are looked at as dream teams and/or XI teams. Valencia, Atheltico Madrid, Athletic Bilbao, are all good clubs and fight, but they can't match Barcelona, or Madrid and even when they seem like coming up on the ladder they lose key players. Valencia in the last two years lost Villa, Silva, and Mata, just wow those are some heavy hitters imagine them still there with Soldado? It would be force of an offence to mess with. They (Valencia) are on the verge of losing Alba this year. Athletic Bilbao did you know the average age of players in the starting line up for them is 24 years old? This Euro watch Soldado/Llorente/Martinez/Alba will be observed by many, all who play in La Liga either they may go to Barca/Madrid, or Serie A/EPL. Spain produces brilliant talents even the star of England this year Augero (winning goal to win the league) was neutered in Atheltico Madrid, as well as Torres in his glory days with them and Liverpool. English fans/press are the worst in judging players like Torres/Silva/Mata/Fabregas/Alonso/Augero all came they were criticized heavily and were stated not strong enough for EPL, but yet this season Augero/Silva were the stars in EPL a long with others. Thats the thing with La Liga once a club seems like they are going to arise they go under little construction again, and its a repeat cycle, this fair policy may benefit La Liga in way.

    EPL has four balance teams United, City, Chelsea, and Aresnal they have their ups and downs, but compete a long with clubs like Tottenham, Newcastle, and Liverpool knocking on the door (well Liverpool not so much but they are still in top 8 somewhere). They don't have a squad like Barcelona, or Madrid, its like Raul said if Barcelona, or Madrid played in EPL they'd dominate with mild difficulty, this is a clear assumption as we would never know the outcome, and we would at least need to remove United and City/Chelsea out of the picture, but Barca and Madrid would still put up a huge fight with them there.

    Serie A is also well balanced with Milan, inter, Juventus, Napoli, Roma, and Lazio all around one another.

    This is the reason why Barcelona and Madrid try to compete for everything because they have a squad that can do it, but there biggest competition is themselves. Its like my friend said City/Chelsea make up Madrid and United/Arsenal make up Barcelona.

    Barcelona has a lot of respect towards United and there football/style. As I do and admire them the way they play and how they don't change tactic when facing off with us. Vidic said before the start of this season that Barcelona makes United get stronger and they (United) are obsessed with beating Barcelona. Many Barcelona players have even shown interest to play with United if ever they were to departure and got a chance to go there at that time. Pique, Alves, and Busquets are actually on United list I will speak about the transfer now.

    Transfer:

    Shockingly Hazard signed with Chelsea? Gerrard has said he believes Hazard will make it big in EPL. Hazard stated he was going to wear a blue jersey next year, and than he said he was going to sign with one of the Manchester teams and now he's with Chelsea? He states he went to them because of there CL victory? Glory hunter much? I actually think knowing SaF he didn't want to pay the price asked for Hazard and City didn't really attempt for him yet, which is why Chelsea took advantage. Rumours have it they are after Hulk, and/or Falcao. Hulk being the closets to sign soon. Many believe he would be the bigger signing than Hazard and more promising good thing with Hulk is he plays winger, so Torres still has a chance lol

    Shinji Kagawa is on his way to United? Some say he hasn't put the pen to the deal yet, but he will be there next year.

    Arsenal are stump ATM they have Podolski, and are after M'Vila (who decides his future after Euros), along with Biglia, but face tough competition with Madrid for Biglia. If they sign both players this will help Van Persie signing a new contract with them, as Arsenal will be stronger, sadly Barcelona rejected bids for Tello and Cuenca who Wenger wanted.

    Fernando Llorente has shown interest in EPL with both Arsenal and United lurking around and waiting for a chance, but he will cost $30+ million.

    Bale is wanted by Barcelona and United, but they aren't as worried for him Alba who plays similar position is costing Barcelona and United 12 million were as Bale would cost 40+ million, so they'll try for Alba, but he seem like he'll be going back home to Barcelona (Alba is from Barca youth academy).

    Bayern defender Alaba is on the list of both Barcelona and Madrid a long with Chelsea defender Ivanovic who's wanted by both too and Juventus. Ivanovic is opened to talks and wants to hear offers.

    Thaigo Silva is wanted many by United, Barcelona, City, and Madrid. Barcelona maybe willing to swoop Thaigo Silva for Thaigo Alcantara, and they also have Chelsea defender Luiz on the list, as well do City.

    Kompany has recent declined a move to Barcelona, as news also report Augero and Silva reject a move to Madrid to stay at City. Silva was suppose to move to Madrid instead of City, but when Mou came in they didn't advance his transfer talks, otherwise he was at the door step, but now Mou wants him with him and Aguero anything can happen.

    Alves is said to be transferred as United being favs to land him, but SaF doesn't agree with his price due to his age.

    Pique has been off his game and reports have it he may depart all tho i doubt it, but United once again would love a reunion with him.

    Chelsea are willing to pay Everton $20 million for Fellaini.

    Tevez and Adyebyor said to be transferred this year also, but it depends on who City may sign also.

    Chelsea have kept Di Matteo in the dark at the moment as they are trying to lure Pep down, despite Pep saying he needs a break his break could cut short, as he will have 2-3 months to decide. Chelsea is even willing to spend $250 million for no one other than Messi, if Pep comes and they thing he can convince the Argentine to come down, but I hardly doubt it even if Pep becomes Chelsea manager.

    Lucas Moura in talks with Madrid ATM.

    Xabi Alonso hasn't penned a new deal with Madrid yet, so he may depart? He did reveal he wanted to end his career at Liverpool.

    Higuain and Kaka futures are still in the balance.

    England seems like getting many talents, but we don't know how far some clubs will go, but United and City may face heavy competition next year if most these go thru.

    What are your thoughts on these?

    Also recently Italy has been hit with match fixing again and Juventus is on the ropes, sad time for Italy ATM. The Italian coach was so pissed, he was willing to pull his country out of Euro because of how ashamed he is with them. 19 players/coach got arrest and 12 of them came from the top Italy clubs.

    A lot of typing (arg). Anyways no rush I'll be keen on waiting for your response. And I apologize for the late response.

    PS: Some mistakes were made, but too lazy to fix them


    Holy Shit, you wrote so much

    Anyways, you got a point upon how the fans actually are huge parts of the money craziness inside the football world. I kinda agree and it's a bit true that the players got a certain obligation towards us by such. Still, we don't live in a selfless world anyways, so it's a hopeful wish that is too rare to realize unfortunately.

    And I agree that many clubs are obnibulated to buy skillful players but still, we can't say that no team would like to have Vidic, T.Silva, Pirlo, Modric, Yay Toure, Scholes ect... in their team. I'd rather have a balance of hardworking players and entertaining players in my team. Like even if there are players like Messi/Ronaldo who'd keep attacking, I'd also keep players like Ozil, Rooney ect... that'll give their all in both attack as well as defensive tasks.

    Coming to Chelsea's CL win, I'm replying on only certain points that struck me in your post cause we already said a lot on this Final.

    "Older players come with experience, so thats really an excuse..." - Well, Chelsea's case are different. Unlike, Barca or United or Milan who have aging players in certain sections, Chelsea's backbone was aging. That is, it's GK (Cech), Defender (Terry, Cole), Midfield (Malouda, Lampard) and Striker (Drogba). To me, that's why I think that's why Chelsea's aging factor was more an handicap rather than a plus point to have experience. But Drogba, Lampard, Cole and Cech all upped their games in last stages of CL under Di Matteo.

    "Cole/Luiz/Cahill are great defenders/L/R back, world class in my books. And Chelsea still had other good players like Malouda, Kalou, Sturridge." - All those players were dismal - nearly catastrophic - under AVB. See Chelsea's performances under AVB and you'll understand why they were underdogs. Also, Luiz and Sturridge need to improve a lot.

    "You talk about this defense tactic which many think is negative tactic. Than why is it we complain about play acting/diving?" - Well, I see defensive tactic as a heroic way whereas diving/acting is a cowardly way. It's against fair-play. Sure, attacking football is more exhausting physically but defensive football exhausts more mentally. You ever felt a mental tension when your team is defending a mere lead at the last instances. Isn't it nerve-breaking at times? Well, this is exactly the kind of nerve-breaking test that a team suffers when they have 20% possession for a whole match. So, it's really not easy to defend in those conditions IMO; no matter what Cryuff say. And you know how much I respect Cryuff. Chelsea's way of defense is more courageous than negative.

    "If United used that tactic easily could have beaten Barcelona especially since Van Der Sar performance was right there with Messi/Xavi/Iniesta that game." - Personally, I would have loved if United defended better; instead of being D!ckheads about their attacking display. Or atleast, Ferguson should have played players that are capable of both efficient defending as well as capable of going with United's tactic.

    "Lets recall last year Madrid got the best of Barca with that style." - They lost many matches also. If Madrid were able to thwart off Barcelona at every matches with that tactic, there may have not be complains. They couldn't do as well as Chelsea with that tactic.

    Anyways, it's useless to remind of United v/s Barcelona and Bayern v/s Chelsea now. It's already done and we already said a lot on it.



    The pic is for fun but I agree with your points. Though it's a bit harsh to say that Barcelona = United+Arsenal and Madrid = City+Chelsea. It's all theory and if they were to play each season together, I think football would be different. Much harder to guess which teams would be better.

    Your post made me start thinking that it would have been easier if there were some kind of All-Stars league (like in NBA) once the season is over (in the years when there's no Euro/WC). Whatch'a say?

    Coming on transfers:

    Hazard - Well, he initially said that he would love to join Tottenham in case of CL for them. Then, he decided to opt for the 2 Manchesters since Spurs' chances were slimming. True, he changed his decision a bit radically once Chelsea won CL but well, I guess, he never dared to say Chelsea before they win it. Hazard wanted 3 things - Play the CL with an English team (that encircles the 5 top teams in England), A huge salary (only City, United and Chelsea could afford it - eliminating the other contenders) and he wanted a guaranteed starting spot (City couldn't promise that to him).

    That left United and Chelsea but perhaps United was bit more hesitant on is salary. Otherwise, there's not much difference between the two since both clubs have at Top of EPL since years by now. Yeah, London's climate is better than Manchester though Ask Tevez Not everyone prefer the daily rain in Manchester, even if United has a little more historical prestige than Chelsea. Marvin Martin signed to Lille btw.

    Hazard's transfer is particularly an example of how future top talents will want a transfer. Where history is not primed, where salaries and club positioning are the most important. Expect similar cases for Neymar, Bale, T.Silva, Gotze, Hulk ect...

    Kagawa's deal is confirmed with United since it was officially reported by Manutd.com. They don't wanna disclose the fee though since Kagawa still don't have UK work permit. Meh, it shouldn't be a big issue; though I remember that Anderson faced similar problems when he was transferred to United too. Due to that, he couldn't play the first matches of the season. Hope, Kagawa's case will be solved faster.

    United will target Baines instead of Bale/Alba though. This doesn't surprise me since Ferguson has great relations with David Moyes. And there are chances that he won't cost as much as Alba and that the transfer fee will decrease if they add players like Park and Fabio in loan. I like how United are targeting player one-by-one as per priority. They needed an offensive playmaker. They fulfilled that with Kagawa. Now they are focusing on Left-back position. I think, they target a central midfielder next. One that can replace Scholes in 2 years and one that can play as good as Scholes since Scholes won't play all matches next season.

    Coming on that, United will try to sign Baines. If they fail (like with Hazard), they'll fight for Alba. Hopefully, they try for Martinez/M'Villa/Xabi Alonso/Allen afterwards. And after the central midfielder, if they are going to spend more, it's surely going to be for a pure striker. Llorente would be cool but I'm not optimistic. In fact, I think Ferguson might snub our striker signing.

    But it's true that M'Villa is closer to Arsenal and United is pretty silent when it comes to Martinez. Many fans are requesting him but Ferguson didn't make any move.

    T.Silva is said to be 99% staying. I think Aguero could have move to Madrid if Higuain went away but I don't think that'll be the case. Kaka will most likely go though.

    Pique's case - I really don't know what to think now. He was arguably the 2nd best defender in the World after Vidic in 2009. Now...???

    Fellaini's case is ridiculous when Chelsea already got Torres and probably Hulk.

    Most likely Tevez will suddenly find that the sun is shining at Manchester, that it feels great to stay at Manchester. But I think he'll go if Balottelli stays. Dzeko's case will also be interesting.
     
         

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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Quote Originally Posted by Escorpiius View Post



    Holy Shit, you wrote so much

    Anyways, you got a point upon how the fans actually are huge parts of the money craziness inside the football world. I kinda agree and it's a bit true that the players got a certain obligation towards us by such. Still, we don't live in a selfless world anyways, so it's a hopeful wish that is too rare to realize unfortunately.

    And I agree that many clubs are obnibulated to buy skillful players but still, we can't say that no team would like to have Vidic, T.Silva, Pirlo, Modric, Yay Toure, Scholes ect... in their team. I'd rather have a balance of hardworking players and entertaining players in my team. Like even if there are players like Messi/Ronaldo who'd keep attacking, I'd also keep players like Ozil, Rooney ect... that'll give their all in both attack as well as defensive tasks.

    Coming to Chelsea's CL win, I'm replying on only certain points that struck me in your post cause we already said a lot on this Final.

    "Older players come with experience, so thats really an excuse..." - Well, Chelsea's case are different. Unlike, Barca or United or Milan who have aging players in certain sections, Chelsea's backbone was aging. That is, it's GK (Cech), Defender (Terry, Cole), Midfield (Malouda, Lampard) and Striker (Drogba). To me, that's why I think that's why Chelsea's aging factor was more an handicap rather than a plus point to have experience. But Drogba, Lampard, Cole and Cech all upped their games in last stages of CL under Di Matteo.

    "Cole/Luiz/Cahill are great defenders/L/R back, world class in my books. And Chelsea still had other good players like Malouda, Kalou, Sturridge." - All those players were dismal - nearly catastrophic - under AVB. See Chelsea's performances under AVB and you'll understand why they were underdogs. Also, Luiz and Sturridge need to improve a lot.

    "You talk about this defense tactic which many think is negative tactic. Than why is it we complain about play acting/diving?" - Well, I see defensive tactic as a heroic way whereas diving/acting is a cowardly way. It's against fair-play. Sure, attacking football is more exhausting physically but defensive football exhausts more mentally. You ever felt a mental tension when your team is defending a mere lead at the last instances. Isn't it nerve-breaking at times? Well, this is exactly the kind of nerve-breaking test that a team suffers when they have 20% possession for a whole match. So, it's really not easy to defend in those conditions IMO; no matter what Cryuff say. And you know how much I respect Cryuff. Chelsea's way of defense is more courageous than negative.

    "If United used that tactic easily could have beaten Barcelona especially since Van Der Sar performance was right there with Messi/Xavi/Iniesta that game." - Personally, I would have loved if United defended better; instead of being D!ckheads about their attacking display. Or atleast, Ferguson should have played players that are capable of both efficient defending as well as capable of going with United's tactic.

    "Lets recall last year Madrid got the best of Barca with that style." - They lost many matches also. If Madrid were able to thwart off Barcelona at every matches with that tactic, there may have not be complains. They couldn't do as well as Chelsea with that tactic.

    Anyways, it's useless to remind of United v/s Barcelona and Bayern v/s Chelsea now. It's already done and we already said a lot on it.
    lol yeah took my time with that

    Sadly we do actually live in a selfish world if you look at it general wise. If that was the case people wouldn't have been bankrupt and economy wouldn't be facing such a crisis. The rich stay rich the poor get poorer, due to selfishness.

    I never said anything about any team not wanting skillful/hard working players like you mentioned. They would love it, but as I said age and price tag for some clubs cause loss of interest. Alves as an example United want him, but they don't argue with his price tag due to his age they want it lower. We want hard worker, but even players like Vidic, Ozil, Pirlo, etc are class acts and entertain us as much as working hard to win for club/country. Entertainment still exist even with these hard working players.

    Regrading Chelsea CL we will both have different opinion as are view and taste in football differs. You are a fan of English football, were as I am a fan of Spanish. English don't have such a big offensive squad (England national team wise). England clubs are known to approach in a defensive style, but to its limit like United last year, or City this year. Chelsea was just above and beyond. I mean honestly imagine watching the final and Bayern played the same way? We'd see the wind blowing the ball on the pitch. Sure one club would end up being the better defensive football team, but how would that game be ranked? Its better to see an offensive game, than a defensive game two way.

    As I said Chelsea had a team that could attack and challenge Bayern, but they choose not too, defensive game isn't easy and may take mental stress on you, but offensive game burns a player down and also takes a lot mental toll on offensive players especially facing a team like Chelsea defensive play. So, in all its easier to play defence over offence, which is what Chelsea choose, and did get the better of.

    As the players go you may say some didn't have a good game, season, or so doesn't change their class. Luiz is a wanted man by City, Barcelona, and Madrid he may need improvement, but these clubs sure want him, so he must have something in him. City may take Sturridge back. Lampard and Xavi are similar age, so if he can perform, so could lampard. Valdez and Cech are around the same age and Cech is a much better GK. I see there only problem is striker Drogba, but he was still in top class past 1-2 months before end of season. They still had many others, but they choose not to give them the chance, and/or take the risk. If Torres shines for them next season, will know their main problem.

    Madrid got result VS Barcelona. They didn't play exactly like Chelsea 1-0-10 line up, but they had a defence approach and only lost once due to red card and than playing attack with 10 man. They started that after 5-0 thrashing and stopped after being knocked out of CL, but despite that won the Copa with that style.

    I know United VS Barca is the pass, nevertheless that game went down in history as one of the best in CL and as some said Untied gave Madrid hope, the next season Madrid came out offensively against Barca and got the best of them with taking possession the first game and drawing it, but at the end only losing to them (Barca) by 1. That Espana Cup was one of the best I've seen the pace, attack, defence, I mean both clubs had almost every thing locked down. And even the game they beat us in La Liga it wasn't an entirely defensive game, from the bits I saw of it that is. United defence last year, and City decent approach this year on it I have respect for, but Chelsea 1-0-10? You can say you hoped United to approach that, but I'll never see United under SaF playing a 1-0-10 VS anyone. It's shame to see when people don't put in an effort, the fact that Chelsea threw 5-6 people in their PK box right when Barca/Bayern cross the halfway line is indeed not called proper football.

    As I said I grew up watching Spanish football, which was all about offensive play, I saw many older Holland games, also and after Cryuff brought in there style of play it changed everything. Barcelona were able to master that style and it even bought success to their national team with it. The game is beautiful to watch and due to that style Barcelona have risen to new heights.


    Quote Originally Posted by Escorpiius View Post


    The pic is for fun but I agree with your points. Though it's a bit harsh to say that Barcelona = United+Arsenal and Madrid = City+Chelsea. It's all theory and if they were to play each season together, I think football would be different. Much harder to guess which teams would be better.

    Your post made me start thinking that it would have been easier if there were some kind of All-Stars league (like in NBA) once the season is over (in the years when there's no Euro/WC). Whatch'a say?

    Coming on transfers:

    Hazard - Well, he initially said that he would love to join Tottenham in case of CL for them. Then, he decided to opt for the 2 Manchesters since Spurs' chances were slimming. True, he changed his decision a bit radically once Chelsea won CL but well, I guess, he never dared to say Chelsea before they win it. Hazard wanted 3 things - Play the CL with an English team (that encircles the 5 top teams in England), A huge salary (only City, United and Chelsea could afford it - eliminating the other contenders) and he wanted a guaranteed starting spot (City couldn't promise that to him).

    That left United and Chelsea but perhaps United was bit more hesitant on is salary. Otherwise, there's not much difference between the two since both clubs have at Top of EPL since years by now. Yeah, London's climate is better than Manchester though Ask Tevez Not everyone prefer the daily rain in Manchester, even if United has a little more historical prestige than Chelsea. Marvin Martin signed to Lille btw.

    Hazard's transfer is particularly an example of how future top talents will want a transfer. Where history is not primed, where salaries and club positioning are the most important. Expect similar cases for Neymar, Bale, T.Silva, Gotze, Hulk ect...

    Kagawa's deal is confirmed with United since it was officially reported by Manutd.com. They don't wanna disclose the fee though since Kagawa still don't have UK work permit. Meh, it shouldn't be a big issue; though I remember that Anderson faced similar problems when he was transferred to United too. Due to that, he couldn't play the first matches of the season. Hope, Kagawa's case will be solved faster.

    United will target Baines instead of Bale/Alba though. This doesn't surprise me since Ferguson has great relations with David Moyes. And there are chances that he won't cost as much as Alba and that the transfer fee will decrease if they add players like Park and Fabio in loan. I like how United are targeting player one-by-one as per priority. They needed an offensive playmaker. They fulfilled that with Kagawa. Now they are focusing on Left-back position. I think, they target a central midfielder next. One that can replace Scholes in 2 years and one that can play as good as Scholes since Scholes won't play all matches next season.

    Coming on that, United will try to sign Baines. If they fail (like with Hazard), they'll fight for Alba. Hopefully, they try for Martinez/M'Villa/Xabi Alonso/Allen afterwards. And after the central midfielder, if they are going to spend more, it's surely going to be for a pure striker. Llorente would be cool but I'm not optimistic. In fact, I think Ferguson might snub our striker signing.

    But it's true that M'Villa is closer to Arsenal and United is pretty silent when it comes to Martinez. Many fans are requesting him but Ferguson didn't make any move.

    T.Silva is said to be 99% staying. I think Aguero could have move to Madrid if Higuain went away but I don't think that'll be the case. Kaka will most likely go though.

    Pique's case - I really don't know what to think now. He was arguably the 2nd best defender in the World after Vidic in 2009. Now...???

    Fellaini's case is ridiculous when Chelsea already got Torres and probably Hulk.

    Most likely Tevez will suddenly find that the sun is shining at Manchester, that it feels great to stay at Manchester. But I think he'll go if Balottelli stays. Dzeko's case will also be interesting.
    I think you misunderstood, on what I meant to say. United Rooney, Aresnal RVP, and lets say Chelsea Torres/Drogba = Madrid Ronaldo, Benzema, and Higuain. Or is there a single English club that can compete with this midfield Xavi, Inesita, and Fabregas? Thats what I meant player wise it takes two club in EPL to = Madrid/Barca. Hence why I said Barca/Madrid are like a dream team, you have the best in all positions. In EPL and Serie A clubs are amore balanced, why the competition is still there between a hand full of teams.

    Hazard still has a lot to prove read an article online a few days ago, and it was stating how there hasn't been many players who actually made a big impact after leaving any France club. Will see if you succeed all thou eyes will be on Torres, or if the get Hulk IMO.

    City didn't promise a starting position and United didn't want to pay that much for him, despite being able to afford him, but with that money they can get Kagawa and another L/RB.

    Baines is only their target because Alba will sign for Barcelona being a youth from there and he has already desired a return there, so no point in chasing something thats already lost and Bale price is too high, that why both tried Alba, with Barca leading the race and now United will settle with Baines. I know SaF and many United supporters would prefer Alba or Bale, over Baines.

    Martinez is still up for grabs, Xabi Alonso I doubt he'll sign being a past Liverpool player and fan. M'Vila can go anywhere, but i hope he settles with Arsenal to give them a fighting chance. Martines is a good grab great attacking midfield and defence wise also.

    There is still that 1% chance of T. Silva departing, so lets not rule it out and last year he did show interest of join Barcelona. If Augero joins most likely it will be a swap for Higuain, or Madrid may sell him to PSG to get the funds for Aguero.

    I'm telling you Shakira...! The rare chances could be that he lost interest playing for Barcelona, or football in general.

    Torres, still hasn't proven his worth and Hulk hasn't signed just yet, so they want back-up for incase. And the fact that they can afford it.

    So, Chelsea might be making Di Matteo their full-time boss, but only for 12 months first for obvious reason if they don't lure Pep not, he still remains on their list next year.

    Also, Muller seems like he wants out. He spent most this season on the bench and hasn't been to happy. He does state that he will always be a Bayern, but the current situation he's at doesn't mean he won't listen to offers. ATM Inter have only approached him.

    Lewandowski also has dreamt of playing in EPL, but for Aresnal, and ATM Untied around his doorsteps.

    United will sign Modric, I'm sure of it.
     
         

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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Quote Originally Posted by ReLax - View Post
    lol yeah took my time with that

    Sadly we do actually live in a selfish world if you look at it general wise. If that was the case people wouldn't have been bankrupt and economy wouldn't be facing such a crisis. The rich stay rich the poor get poorer, due to selfishness.

    I never said anything about any team not wanting skillful/hard working players like you mentioned. They would love it, but as I said age and price tag for some clubs cause loss of interest. Alves as an example United want him, but they don't argue with his price tag due to his age they want it lower. We want hard worker, but even players like Vidic, Ozil, Pirlo, etc are class acts and entertain us as much as working hard to win for club/country. Entertainment still exist even with these hard working players.

    Regrading Chelsea CL we will both have different opinion as are view and taste in football differs. You are a fan of English football, were as I am a fan of Spanish. English don't have such a big offensive squad (England national team wise). England clubs are known to approach in a defensive style, but to its limit like United last year, or City this year. Chelsea was just above and beyond. I mean honestly imagine watching the final and Bayern played the same way? We'd see the wind blowing the ball on the pitch. Sure one club would end up being the better defensive football team, but how would that game be ranked? Its better to see an offensive game, than a defensive game two way.

    As I said Chelsea had a team that could attack and challenge Bayern, but they choose not too, defensive game isn't easy and may take mental stress on you, but offensive game burns a player down and also takes a lot mental toll on offensive players especially facing a team like Chelsea defensive play. So, in all its easier to play defence over offence, which is what Chelsea choose, and did get the better of.

    As the players go you may say some didn't have a good game, season, or so doesn't change their class. Luiz is a wanted man by City, Barcelona, and Madrid he may need improvement, but these clubs sure want him, so he must have something in him. City may take Sturridge back. Lampard and Xavi are similar age, so if he can perform, so could lampard. Valdez and Cech are around the same age and Cech is a much better GK. I see there only problem is striker Drogba, but he was still in top class past 1-2 months before end of season. They still had many others, but they choose not to give them the chance, and/or take the risk. If Torres shines for them next season, will know their main problem.

    Madrid got result VS Barcelona. They didn't play exactly like Chelsea 1-0-10 line up, but they had a defence approach and only lost once due to red card and than playing attack with 10 man. They started that after 5-0 thrashing and stopped after being knocked out of CL, but despite that won the Copa with that style.

    I know United VS Barca is the pass, nevertheless that game went down in history as one of the best in CL and as some said Untied gave Madrid hope, the next season Madrid came out offensively against Barca and got the best of them with taking possession the first game and drawing it, but at the end only losing to them (Barca) by 1. That Espana Cup was one of the best I've seen the pace, attack, defence, I mean both clubs had almost every thing locked down. And even the game they beat us in La Liga it wasn't an entirely defensive game, from the bits I saw of it that is. United defence last year, and City decent approach this year on it I have respect for, but Chelsea 1-0-10? You can say you hoped United to approach that, but I'll never see United under SaF playing a 1-0-10 VS anyone. It's shame to see when people don't put in an effort, the fact that Chelsea threw 5-6 people in their PK box right when Barca/Bayern cross the halfway line is indeed not called proper football.

    As I said I grew up watching Spanish football, which was all about offensive play, I saw many older Holland games, also and after Cryuff brought in there style of play it changed everything. Barcelona were able to master that style and it even bought success to their national team with it. The game is beautiful to watch and due to that style Barcelona have risen to new heights.




    I think you misunderstood, on what I meant to say. United Rooney, Aresnal RVP, and lets say Chelsea Torres/Drogba = Madrid Ronaldo, Benzema, and Higuain. Or is there a single English club that can compete with this midfield Xavi, Inesita, and Fabregas? Thats what I meant player wise it takes two club in EPL to = Madrid/Barca. Hence why I said Barca/Madrid are like a dream team, you have the best in all positions. In EPL and Serie A clubs are amore balanced, why the competition is still there between a hand full of teams.

    Hazard still has a lot to prove read an article online a few days ago, and it was stating how there hasn't been many players who actually made a big impact after leaving any France club. Will see if you succeed all thou eyes will be on Torres, or if the get Hulk IMO.

    City didn't promise a starting position and United didn't want to pay that much for him, despite being able to afford him, but with that money they can get Kagawa and another L/RB.

    Baines is only their target because Alba will sign for Barcelona being a youth from there and he has already desired a return there, so no point in chasing something thats already lost and Bale price is too high, that why both tried Alba, with Barca leading the race and now United will settle with Baines. I know SaF and many United supporters would prefer Alba or Bale, over Baines.

    Martinez is still up for grabs, Xabi Alonso I doubt he'll sign being a past Liverpool player and fan. M'Vila can go anywhere, but i hope he settles with Arsenal to give them a fighting chance. Martines is a good grab great attacking midfield and defence wise also.

    There is still that 1% chance of T. Silva departing, so lets not rule it out and last year he did show interest of join Barcelona. If Augero joins most likely it will be a swap for Higuain, or Madrid may sell him to PSG to get the funds for Aguero.

    I'm telling you Shakira...! The rare chances could be that he lost interest playing for Barcelona, or football in general.

    Torres, still hasn't proven his worth and Hulk hasn't signed just yet, so they want back-up for incase. And the fact that they can afford it.

    So, Chelsea might be making Di Matteo their full-time boss, but only for 12 months first for obvious reason if they don't lure Pep not, he still remains on their list next year.

    Also, Muller seems like he wants out. He spent most this season on the bench and hasn't been to happy. He does state that he will always be a Bayern, but the current situation he's at doesn't mean he won't listen to offers. ATM Inter have only approached him.

    Lewandowski also has dreamt of playing in EPL, but for Aresnal, and ATM Untied around his doorsteps.

    United will sign Modric, I'm sure of it.


    "Entertainment still exist even with these hard working players." - Well, obviously, entertainment comes in diverse forms and many people see entertaining things differently. For example, I may be in awe of CR7, Messi, Rooney ect... entertaining ability but I'd admit that Lahm/Cole's exemplary defense in the final or Cech's amazing GK skills actually entertained me. But, not all people see those things as entertaining and at the end, the hardworking players wee surely bought for their hardwork; not entertainment.

    I don't it's possible to play with 2 defensive teams on both ends. And if it were, it's a 99% 0-0 match anyways with merely chances.

    Well, we are going round the topic now. See, offensive play takes a higher toll on physicality and a certain amount mentally, while defensive play exhausts mentally and also physically to some extent. To me, the 'difficulty' level is the same for both tactic but certain teams are better suited for one and less for the other. Atleast, that's my opinion.

    The only reason why SAF or most managers won't play 1-0-10, is because of the aftermaths of this tactic. Like if the tactic succeeds, some will complain and some will be happy but not everyone will appreciate it. And if it fail, it's worse since they will be dismantled by fans', media ect... opinions.

    Take Holland's defensive approach in WC2010 for example: They got a certain amount of criticism when they eliminated Brazil with that style but some liked it also. But when it failed (against Spain), then a majority condemned it. So, it isn't easy for a coach to establish that tactic. And even if they decide to do it, not all teams can pull it off. These are moments when you hoped theory worked better in football...

    --

    Sure, Madrid/Barca combined are a dream team; though defense-wise it could be better but right now, Real posess la crème de la crème in offense and similarly for Barca in midfield. But as I said above, theory works less in football, so they can't always win.

    Well, I'm less skeptical for Hazard to succeed though. Many dismantle him due to his over-priced transfer but frankly, I've seen him play regularly in France (due to me having all matches of Ligue 1) and I can say that he has everything to succeed. But, still, different league, different culture, different level, different thing

    And on many players who didn't make any impact after leaving France, it's just haters on Hazard though. I mean - Benzema, Nasri, Ribery, Abidal, Drogba, Evra, Ronaldinho, Henry ect...

    Bale is a level-apart from Alba/Baines. Baines is a good option though and so is Alba. They got different forte but both are good.

    Mou missed on Aguero when he chose Di Maria over him IMO. And now, it' doesn't make much sense to exchange Aguero and Higuain. Both are nearly the same level, so why sell a player who already grasped Madrid's concept over someone who'll need to start anew with the tactic (though as talented).

    , probably. If he break up with Shakira and starts playing well again, I'm gonna laugh loud though.

    Like all Chelsea players, Torres got a bit better when Di matteo replaced AVB. So, perhaps, Torres might get back quicker on his form. A good Euro and he might end up his jinx. Moving that part, if Chelsea get Hulk, it's a far-cry from their defensive football. Instead, I see a potential brilliant attacking lineup. With Mikel, Ramires, Lampard, Mata, Hazard, Torres, Hulk - they can definitely challenge big titles.

    Lewandowski will complete the striker signing for United if the deal pass. He's the basically the kind-of striker we didn't have. A striker with styles different to Rooney, Chicharito and Welbeck and one that'll enable us to do different amalgamations.

    I really doubt to see Modric but he'd be the best option we can grab though.

    Nani is also hinting a possible departure.
     
         

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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Quote Originally Posted by Escorpiius View Post


    "Entertainment still exist even with these hard working players." - Well, obviously, entertainment comes in diverse forms and many people see entertaining things differently. For example, I may be in awe of CR7, Messi, Rooney ect... entertaining ability but I'd admit that Lahm/Cole's exemplary defense in the final or Cech's amazing GK skills actually entertained me. But, not all people see those things as entertaining and at the end, the hardworking players wee surely bought for their hardwork; not entertainment.

    I don't it's possible to play with 2 defensive teams on both ends. And if it were, it's a 99% 0-0 match anyways with merely chances.

    Well, we are going round the topic now. See, offensive play takes a higher toll on physicality and a certain amount mentally, while defensive play exhausts mentally and also physically to some extent. To me, the 'difficulty' level is the same for both tactic but certain teams are better suited for one and less for the other. Atleast, that's my opinion.

    The only reason why SAF or most managers won't play 1-0-10, is because of the aftermaths of this tactic. Like if the tactic succeeds, some will complain and some will be happy but not everyone will appreciate it. And if it fail, it's worse since they will be dismantled by fans', media ect... opinions.

    Take Holland's defensive approach in WC2010 for example: They got a certain amount of criticism when they eliminated Brazil with that style but some liked it also. But when it failed (against Spain), then a majority condemned it. So, it isn't easy for a coach to establish that tactic. And even if they decide to do it, not all teams can pull it off. These are moments when you hoped theory worked better in football...

    --

    Sure, Madrid/Barca combined are a dream team; though defense-wise it could be better but right now, Real posess la crème de la crème in offense and similarly for Barca in midfield. But as I said above, theory works less in football, so they can't always win.

    Well, I'm less skeptical for Hazard to succeed though. Many dismantle him due to his over-priced transfer but frankly, I've seen him play regularly in France (due to me having all matches of Ligue 1) and I can say that he has everything to succeed. But, still, different league, different culture, different level, different thing

    And on many players who didn't make any impact after leaving France, it's just haters on Hazard though. I mean - Benzema, Nasri, Ribery, Abidal, Drogba, Evra, Ronaldinho, Henry ect...

    Bale is a level-apart from Alba/Baines. Baines is a good option though and so is Alba. They got different forte but both are good.

    Mou missed on Aguero when he chose Di Maria over him IMO. And now, it' doesn't make much sense to exchange Aguero and Higuain. Both are nearly the same level, so why sell a player who already grasped Madrid's concept over someone who'll need to start anew with the tactic (though as talented).

    , probably. If he break up with Shakira and starts playing well again, I'm gonna laugh loud though.

    Like all Chelsea players, Torres got a bit better when Di matteo replaced AVB. So, perhaps, Torres might get back quicker on his form. A good Euro and he might end up his jinx. Moving that part, if Chelsea get Hulk, it's a far-cry from their defensive football. Instead, I see a potential brilliant attacking lineup. With Mikel, Ramires, Lampard, Mata, Hazard, Torres, Hulk - they can definitely challenge big titles.

    Lewandowski will complete the striker signing for United if the deal pass. He's the basically the kind-of striker we didn't have. A striker with styles different to Rooney, Chicharito and Welbeck and one that'll enable us to do different amalgamations.

    I really doubt to see Modric but he'd be the best option we can grab though.

    Nani is also hinting a possible departure.
    Agreed entertainment comes in different forms, but fact that it still exist in every form remains to be seen. We've seen teams defend well and entertained us, or attack well and entertain us, or ones that do both. At the end I'll say to end this is Chelsea CL defence came in no entertainment form at all.

    Well, assume it is? Would a match like that be entertaining, or even worth watching?

    Well, when Barca bought the Netherlands style in the beginning sure they won their first European cup, but still struggled throughout the years after, we complained and all, but we still stuck throughout it and today its recognized by everyone we are the best and the team to beat, were defensive play like that will hardly be recognized. If you have faith behind your plays you will stick with it, defence approach like that only comes from teams who don't have faith in their squad and assume they can't match Spain/Barcelona.

    This doesn't mean they cannot be defeat must I remind you last year Hercules beat us while they played offence? That year they got relegated from La Liga.

    Xavi said it best, We lost to Inter in 09/10 and they went on to be champions of Europe and we lost to Chelsea this year who went on to be champions of Europe, but yet we are the best and benchmark of world football. This Barcelona squad aren't invincible, but a team/squad that has revolutionized football today. Defeat is inevitable for everyone.

    All tho what is your take on his opinion regrading Mou?

    "Mourinho will not go down in football history. For me, Guardiola is the best and has been the best during the four years he spent in charge.

    "He has revolutionised football. Chelsea won the Champions League this year and yet Barca remain the benchmark for world football."

    Well, we will see how will Hazard does this upcoming season. I'll give him two before actually judging him, but his first season will some what make a little impression.

    Bale has height and strength over Alba, but both have good speed and join in attack very well, Alba maybe the better defender tho. The Euros will show us.

    Well, its Madrid they don't want to get rid of Higuain, but want Aguero. Ronaldo, Benz, Higuain, and Aguero? Would give them a lot of option, but cost a lot and some maybe unhappy. I mean last year they wanted him badly even Ozil said the #10 jersey is reserved for him, but he went to City instead.

    Yeah, Fabregas is having the smiler problem out of shape due to his new GF who came off a broken marriage of 22 years and she's about 12 years older than Cesc. Oh Cesc, what is the younger Barca players and older woman lol the girl Cesc is with has 2 kids one 11 and the other 9.

    As people have said either they are spicing it up for Pep to come, or they may just approach an attacking line up with that squad. They are also scouting two Barcelona youth academy midfielders, I'm guessing next time they want an offensive war VS Barcelona.

    Lewandowski will be on watch for United and one to keep your eyes on. He scored a goal in their first game, but sadly ended up drawing. I sadly thought Herendez would be much bigger, but he's struggled with injuries and all sad to kind of see him get wasted.

    Well, United said if Modric deal fails they will also try for Barcelona Thaigo, who SaF brother really admires since seeing him last summer winning the U-21 WC with Spain. United want to pay $22 million for Modric, last year Chelsea were going to buy him for $40 million, but got rejected and this year Tottenham want $35 million at least.

    Well, Nani and Muller will be watched this year. I can see Muller going to either Inter, or Arsenal actually. Nani can't say maybe back to Portugal? Porto, and/or Benfica?

    Also recent new says Barca are after M'Vil, so Arsenal may face competition.
     
         
    Last edited by ReLax -; 06-09-2012 at 11:11 PM.

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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Quote Originally Posted by ReLax - View Post
    Well, assume it is? Would a match like that be entertaining, or even worth watching?

    Well, when Barca bought the Netherlands style in the beginning sure they won their first European cup, but still struggled throughout the years after, we complained and all, but we still stuck throughout it and today its recognized by everyone we are the best and the team to beat, were defensive play like that will hardly be recognized. If you have faith behind your plays you will stick with it, defence approach like that only comes from teams who don't have faith in their squad and assume they can't match Spain/Barcelona.

    This doesn't mean they cannot be defeat must I remind you last year Hercules beat us while they played offence? That year they got relegated from La Liga.

    Xavi said it best, We lost to Inter in 09/10 and they went on to be champions of Europe and we lost to Chelsea this year who went on to be champions of Europe, but yet we are the best and benchmark of world football. This Barcelona squad aren't invincible, but a team/squad that has revolutionized football today. Defeat is inevitable for everyone.

    All tho what is your take on his opinion regrading Mou?

    "Mourinho will not go down in football history. For me, Guardiola is the best and has been the best during the four years he spent in charge.

    "He has revolutionised football. Chelsea won the Champions League this year and yet Barca remain the benchmark for world football."

    Well, we will see how will Hazard does this upcoming season. I'll give him two before actually judging him, but his first season will some what make a little impression.

    Bale has height and strength over Alba, but both have good speed and join in attack very well, Alba maybe the better defender tho. The Euros will show us.

    Well, its Madrid they don't want to get rid of Higuain, but want Aguero. Ronaldo, Benz, Higuain, and Aguero? Would give them a lot of option, but cost a lot and some maybe unhappy. I mean last year they wanted him badly even Ozil said the #10 jersey is reserved for him, but he went to City instead.

    Yeah, Fabregas is having the smiler problem out of shape due to his new GF who came off a broken marriage of 22 years and she's about 12 years older than Cesc. Oh Cesc, what is the younger Barca players and older woman lol the girl Cesc is with has 2 kids one 11 and the other 9.

    As people have said either they are spicing it up for Pep to come, or they may just approach an attacking line up with that squad. They are also scouting two Barcelona youth academy midfielders, I'm guessing next time they want an offensive war VS Barcelona.

    Lewandowski will be on watch for United and one to keep your eyes on. He scored a goal in their first game, but sadly ended up drawing. I sadly thought Herendez would be much bigger, but he's struggled with injuries and all sad to kind of see him get wasted.

    Well, United said if Modric deal fails they will also try for Barcelona Thaigo, who SaF brother really admires since seeing him last summer winning the U-21 WC with Spain. United want to pay $22 million for Modric, last year Chelsea were going to buy him for $40 million, but got rejected and this year Tottenham want $35 million at least.

    Well, Nani and Muller will be watched this year. I can see Muller going to either Inter, or Arsenal actually. Nani can't say maybe back to Portugal? Porto, and/or Benfica?

    Also recent new says Barca are after M'Vil, so Arsenal may face competition.
    In the most improbable assumption, both teams will have 6-7 defenders and 3 offensive players. So, to see a goal, the 3 offensive players should be talented enough to counter those packed defenders. Since there are barely any teams with that ability, it's near impossible to see that type of match and is possible only when there's a mutual compromise between both teams to end with a goalless draw.

    It's not a matter of having faith, it's a matter of calculating your better options for winning. It's suicide when you try to play offensive football when you neither have the players to do it nor do you have the ability to play it.

    Guardiola is young and if he fails in other leagues, he won't be better than Mou. Pep constructed a great team with Barcelona; one of the best. But he took an already-raved tactic and had the right players to do it.

    Going on Mou, he constructed a team with young potential with Porto, then constructed a team based on money and players who was hungry to win. There's a nice pattern in Chelsea's players - players with potential but who had no experience in trophies but were hungry. After finishing with the hungry team, he went on to Inter; where the team he constructed was based on pride and old glory. Now, he came to Madrid - creating a team full of stars and ego. He did diverse things, diverse construction while Pep did one.

    If Pepe stayed longer and constructed a second-generation of Barca players with that tactic and made it as successful, then he can go into history. That's what SAF did (3 different growing squad with United and Abeerdeen exploit) and Arsene (promising career in Ligue 1; and constructed 2 generations of Arsenal players to glory). Mou definitely is legendary as Arsene and SAF are. Pep is nearly here though, he just need to complete a new challenge in whatever form. Chelsea may be it, a new generation of Barcelona may be it or whatever. He doesn't need to do 4 teams like Mou but he needs to do another big thing. They are the best coaches that have sprung in last decade and Mou has small edge right now.

    Bale is better than Alba. His crosses are a delight to watch, his sprint speed might be better than CR7, he started playing as playmaker and on right wing too. He eats Alba offensively but Bale is poor in defense. Basically, he's not a defender but a left winger. So, if Barca chose Alba, it would be because he defends better - which as I said some time ago, would be wiser since their defense is apologetic.

    Do you seriously, see these 4 - Ronaldo, Benz, Higuain, and Aguero - playing together? It's way too offensive. It's a strawberry cake with honey and caramel lining on top of it; even the mounting of the cake (Ozil) will be sugar-made. It's diabetes ticket.

    At Arsenal, Wenger poise the young players as experienced ones; so I guess xD

    There's a jinx at United on strikers - I've always maintained that. A striker has a great year for 1-2 seasons; then regardless of whether he plays well or not, he gets benched due to another new striker. Take Yorke to Nistelrooy to Saha to Tevez to Berbatov to Chicharito to Welbeck and perhaps now Lewandowski. At United, it seems that to secure your striking place on the field, better be a talisman like Cantona, CR7, Ronaldo or a super-sub like Solskjaer or you're gone. Chicharito will have been great if SAF keep believing in him instead of Welbeck.

    25 Million is appropriate for Modric, it's exaggerated otherwise. Nani might stay but can't be sure. He'll end up in Italy or Portugal if he leaves.

    M'Villa to Barcelona will finally kick out Busquets of the 1st team.
     
         

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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Quote Originally Posted by Escorpiius View Post
    In the most improbable assumption, both teams will have 6-7 defenders and 3 offensive players. So, to see a goal, the 3 offensive players should be talented enough to counter those packed defenders. Since there are barely any teams with that ability, it's near impossible to see that type of match and is possible only when there's a mutual compromise between both teams to end with a goalless draw.

    It's not a matter of having faith, it's a matter of calculating your better options for winning. It's suicide when you try to play offensive football when you neither have the players to do it nor do you have the ability to play it.

    Guardiola is young and if he fails in other leagues, he won't be better than Mou. Pep constructed a great team with Barcelona; one of the best. But he took an already-raved tactic and had the right players to do it.

    Going on Mou, he constructed a team with young potential with Porto, then constructed a team based on money and players who was hungry to win. There's a nice pattern in Chelsea's players - players with potential but who had no experience in trophies but were hungry. After finishing with the hungry team, he went on to Inter; where the team he constructed was based on pride and old glory. Now, he came to Madrid - creating a team full of stars and ego. He did diverse things, diverse construction while Pep did one.

    If Pepe stayed longer and constructed a second-generation of Barca players with that tactic and made it as successful, then he can go into history. That's what SAF did (3 different growing squad with United and Abeerdeen exploit) and Arsene (promising career in Ligue 1; and constructed 2 generations of Arsenal players to glory). Mou definitely is legendary as Arsene and SAF are. Pep is nearly here though, he just need to complete a new challenge in whatever form. Chelsea may be it, a new generation of Barcelona may be it or whatever. He doesn't need to do 4 teams like Mou but he needs to do another big thing. They are the best coaches that have sprung in last decade and Mou has small edge right now.

    Bale is better than Alba. His crosses are a delight to watch, his sprint speed might be better than CR7, he started playing as playmaker and on right wing too. He eats Alba offensively but Bale is poor in defense. Basically, he's not a defender but a left winger. So, if Barca chose Alba, it would be because he defends better - which as I said some time ago, would be wiser since their defense is apologetic.

    Do you seriously, see these 4 - Ronaldo, Benz, Higuain, and Aguero - playing together? It's way too offensive. It's a strawberry cake with honey and caramel lining on top of it; even the mounting of the cake (Ozil) will be sugar-made. It's diabetes ticket.

    At Arsenal, Wenger poise the young players as experienced ones; so I guess xD

    There's a jinx at United on strikers - I've always maintained that. A striker has a great year for 1-2 seasons; then regardless of whether he plays well or not, he gets benched due to another new striker. Take Yorke to Nistelrooy to Saha to Tevez to Berbatov to Chicharito to Welbeck and perhaps now Lewandowski. At United, it seems that to secure your striking place on the field, better be a talisman like Cantona, CR7, Ronaldo or a super-sub like Solskjaer or you're gone. Chicharito will have been great if SAF keep believing in him instead of Welbeck.

    25 Million is appropriate for Modric, it's exaggerated otherwise. Nani might stay but can't be sure. He'll end up in Italy or Portugal if he leaves.

    M'Villa to Barcelona will finally kick out Busquets of the 1st team.
    Pep, has raised a lot of youngsters from Barca, Pique, Busquets, Thaigo, Tello, Cuenca, Bartra (said to replace Alves), and even Messi (he played second to Ronaldinho/E'to under Rajikaard).

    "But he took an already-raved tactic and had the right players to do it." Beyern, Madrid, Milan, United, and etc. They have been true to their game and have/had good squad + manager, but yet in the past few years fall to Barca. Madrid have had players like Zidane/Ronaldo/Beckham/CR7/Benzema/Alonso/Higuain/Ozil, but why are they falling short? Barcelona has had some fantastic squads in the past, but yet only Cryuff, Rajikaard, and Pep succeeded in the past 20 years, with Pep getting the best of the success.

    Mou, SaF, and Wenger are great manager/coach, but even SaF and Wenger have respect for Pep success. SaF and Wenger have had some fantastic squad/tactics also, but yet when you compare them with Barcelona they fall short. What Pep did in 3-4 years, they either haven't done it, or it took them many more years to accomplish them despite the squad/tactic that they have had.

    Barcelona for the past 3-4 years, even not winning CL were still the best team in Europe and the ones to beat under Pep. Untied/Arsenal, or any team Mou has coached have never held the summit for even 3 years ranning. It doesn't matter how you look at it Pep revolutionized football today, the world will look at Netherlands and Cryuff, but the one who made it all happen for Barcelona was Pep and pretty much perfected was Pep. Of course the entire squad is recognized for this as it is a team effort.

    Wenger sadly hasn't won much, but a CL is written for him, I'm sure of if he wins it even beating us, I'll be very happy for him.

    You said it to me before "Tactic sound easy on paper but it's hard to do that." Pep squad and Barca tactic may seem to you as easy, or given success, but its harder than you actually think.

    Bale has a lot more to offer to offer, than Alba. I'd prefer Bale, but defensive wise Alba would be better for Barca especially since he came thru out academy, and playing with Spain he'd already know are tactic. If Barca don't find reinforcement defensively this season, we will fall again.

    I never said playing together, but rather I meant rotation between them, would give them a lot of options, hence why I also said players would be unhappy. Ronaldo would get starting for sure, but Di Maria, Benz, Higuain, and Aguero would have to fight for a spot, but having them on your bench and getting fresh lges like one of them on gives options. Playing them together would be like suicide.

    @ Arsenal LOL

    Well, TBH SaF needs to give more hope to his striker or sign someone like Ibra, E'to, Cavani, Falcao, Hulk and etc who have experience the more newcomers in the big league/top flights need time to adapt to the experience/game. Than injury is a problem to, the thing with the guys I have mention is they have been in and out of injury, but still stay is shape/form a bit.

    Alves is supposedly also get ignored by Barca regrading his future.
     
         

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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Quote Originally Posted by ReLax - View Post
    Pep, has raised a lot of youngsters from Barca, Pique, Busquets, Thaigo, Tello, Cuenca, Bartra (said to replace Alves), and even Messi (he played second to Ronaldinho/E'to under Rajikaard).

    "But he took an already-raved tactic and had the right players to do it." Beyern, Madrid, Milan, United, and etc. They have been true to their game and have/had good squad + manager, but yet in the past few years fall to Barca. Madrid have had players like Zidane/Ronaldo/Beckham/CR7/Benzema/Alonso/Higuain/Ozil, but why are they falling short? Barcelona has had some fantastic squads in the past, but yet only Cryuff, Rajikaard, and Pep succeeded in the past 20 years, with Pep getting the best of the success.

    Mou, SaF, and Wenger are great manager/coach, but even SaF and Wenger have respect for Pep success. SaF and Wenger have had some fantastic squad/tactics also, but yet when you compare them with Barcelona they fall short. What Pep did in 3-4 years, they either haven't done it, or it took them many more years to accomplish them despite the squad/tactic that they have had.

    Barcelona for the past 3-4 years, even not winning CL were still the best team in Europe and the ones to beat under Pep. Untied/Arsenal, or any team Mou has coached have never held the summit for even 3 years ranning. It doesn't matter how you look at it Pep revolutionized football today, the world will look at Netherlands and Cryuff, but the one who made it all happen for Barcelona was Pep and pretty much perfected was Pep. Of course the entire squad is recognized for this as it is a team effort.

    Wenger sadly hasn't won much, but a CL is written for him, I'm sure of if he wins it even beating us, I'll be very happy for him.

    You said it to me before "Tactic sound easy on paper but it's hard to do that." Pep squad and Barca tactic may seem to you as easy, or given success, but its harder than you actually think.

    Bale has a lot more to offer to offer, than Alba. I'd prefer Bale, but defensive wise Alba would be better for Barca especially since he came thru out academy, and playing with Spain he'd already know are tactic. If Barca don't find reinforcement defensively this season, we will fall again.

    I never said playing together, but rather I meant rotation between them, would give them a lot of options, hence why I also said players would be unhappy. Ronaldo would get starting for sure, but Di Maria, Benz, Higuain, and Aguero would have to fight for a spot, but having them on your bench and getting fresh lges like one of them on gives options. Playing them together would be like suicide.

    @ Arsenal LOL

    Well, TBH SaF needs to give more hope to his striker or sign someone like Ibra, E'to, Cavani, Falcao, Hulk and etc who have experience the more newcomers in the big league/top flights need time to adapt to the experience/game. Than injury is a problem to, the thing with the guys I have mention is they have been in and out of injury, but still stay is shape/form a bit.

    Alves is supposedly also get ignored by Barca regrading his future.
    I didn't mean raising in quantity. I meant in different generations. Mou constructed different teams. SAF grew many players in his 20+ years career but what I think is commendable is that he grew 3 stellar generations - Cantona generation, Giggs/Scholesy/Becks Generation and Rooney/Ronaldo/Vidic generation. He did had great players like Van Nistelrooy, Tevez, Saha ect... but his worth is how he kept producing gems as years grew apart. This is something that Pep still needs to do - either grew another team with another club like Mou.

    Since he had such feats with Barca (as you said his revolutionary with Barca is not to be underestimated), he only needs to grew another successful team; not like Mou who did 4 teams. Or he could re-come to Barce and make another new generation of Massia players when Xavi/Iniesta are about to say goodbye.

    It's hypocrite to buy a world-class player like Aguero without guaranteeing him a spot as starter. He's better with City than he'll be on Madrid's bench.

    It's not a matter of signing new strikers. Frankly, I don't even understand his thought on why he don't wanna keep his strikers. WHen I see Chelsea and see how they are struggling with Torres to keep trying to ignite him and there I think of United's bench with Best EPL scorer of 2010/2011 - Berbatov - who Ferguson don't wanna play. Go and find me logic in that. And even you does in Berba's case, go and find it for Nistelrooy, Tevez, Chicharito ect...

    Btw, Di matteo got his contract with Chelsea. I'm glad for him.

    Quote Originally Posted by ReLax - View Post
    As I said, titles aren't the only thing goals/assist are even better than Ronaldo. Pavel in general did a great season. Messi did an amazing one stat wise and accomplishment.

    Winning La Liga is a big thing, and he did score the crucial goal, but what about Messi? He scored two goals and the winner in the Espana cup a long with assisting one. He had the assist VS Madrid in Copa De Rey, which we saw they got knocked out.

    1. Sure.
    2. Ok...
    3. Hmmm, but at the end they both go knocked out of the finals. Messi still had the better run overall 14 goals 6 assist, compared to Ronaldo 10 goals, and 3 assist.
    4. So, is RVP, and Gomez, it doesn't change the fact stats wise Ronaldo is still behind Messi.
    5. No.

    In total Madrid have scored 75 goal excluding Ronaldo 46 in La Liga.

    In total squad has 82 assist excluding Ronaldo in La Liga.

    Barcelona total in La Liga scored by the squad excluding Messi is 60.

    We have total of 60 assist among are team in La Liga also. Did you also know Xavi and Inesita combined only has 9 assist to Messi 73 goals?

    Stat wise Ronaldo scored 46 goals La Liga while as Madrid squad have a combined of 74. Messi scored 50 were as Barcelona have a combined of 60. Madrid as a whole squad have scored 29 goals more than Ronaldo, were as Barcelona only 10 more than Messi. Also Barcelona have won 8 of 25 games when Messi didn't score, thats a 32% win rate, when Messi didn't score this year. Ronaldo has about 38% of Madrid goal this season, while as Messi has 45% of Barcelona (almost half their goals).

    I understand your point on Ballon D'or, but I think you undermine and/or neglect Messi accomplishments/stats. I apologize if you take this a bit offensive at all, as I know that is not your intention, but from what I know about your thoughts on Ballon D'or and what your saying now doesn't add up.

    Lets just speak of Messi individual right now. Every year for the past four years, has he or has he not gotten better?

    I believe he has, every year he breaks his pervious record and improves him self becoming more of an influence for Barcelona. So, its safe to say Messi has shown consistency for the past 4 years were only few people were able to do that including Platini and Ronaldinho. Many other past legends got crowned once after that they had stellar performances, but were at times eclipsed by others.

    Barcelona has won 14 titles in 4 years (3 leagues/2 CL/2 Super Cups/2 Club World Cup). They average three titles a season. So, if we look at it at your point of accomplishment Messi once again quite consistence here.

    So Messi has not only shown consistency and gotten better over the years, but shown consistency in winning titles also.

    I don't think we need to hold on to what happen in 09/10 were many believe Sneijder and/or Xavi/Inesita deserved it. Despite that Sneijder has only become worse after 09/10 and Messi is still getting better.

    As I said Ronaldo has shown that also, but only to lose statistic wise and club accomplishment wise. Last year was close, but after Barcelona captured La Liga and CL, it was obvious who'd win.

    La Liga title is a big title, but it does't equal Espana/CWC/Copa titles. It's better than maybe one, or two, but three I don't think, so. La Liga title will not win Ronaldo the Ballon and that wouldn't be a bad call especially if someone had better statistic/records and more titles.

    If Portugal win or reach final, with Ronaldo being the heart a big chance, but if not, the only people to steal the award from Messi is either Iniesta/Xavi and/or Gomez. Iniesta is having a stellar performance atm. If Germany wins than Gomez has a chance, but I kind of highly doubt it as Bayern not much happened, but chance is there.
    Why you tempt me?

    Ronaldo won Copa Del Rey last year and against Barca; which prestigious-ly speaking is better than winning it against Bilbao. Don't take it wrong, I love Bilbao's team and they are great but it isn't Madrid's level. What I want to say that if Copa Del Rey's win didn't give Ronaldo Ballon D'Or last year, then Messi's Copa won't weigh much in the addition for Ballon D'Or.

    1. ---

    2. Be more enthusiastic, it's a pretty big stat. If I'm not wrong, only RVP came close to beating it but couldn't in the end.

    3. Stats-wise, Messi had a better run in the CL but he still flopped against both legs in Chelsea. Ronaldo rose to most matches in UCL this year and his goal gave Madrid a 30 minute extra-time lease. Messi couldn't even grab extra-time for Barcelona against Chelsea. If it weren't for Messi scoring 5 against Leverkusen, Ronaldo's stats in CL would have been better.

    4. However, there's a North Pole-Equator difference between Messi/Ronaldo and the rest.

    It's still a 38% for Ronaldo. But if you see Madrid's 121 goals, most of them were a triangle action. In many cases, Ronaldo started it and made the first pass but assist/goal weren't by him. He was damn influential in most of these 121 goals IMO; just like Messi had a big influence on most Barcelona's goals.

    What we fail to see is that Assist/Goals stats doesn't resume these 2 phenomenon's feats in this year or at the very least, it speaks more for Messi. If we were to review all the Madrid/Barca goals of last season, you'd see that there were barely 10+ goals where Messi/Ronaldo weren't among the last 3/4 passers. Their influence to their own teamplay is monumental.

    That's why I don't like Ballon D'Or ways of judging on stats basis. Stats are like bikini on a girl - it reveals most part of her body but it still hide certain parts.

    Yeah, I did read that Xavi and Inesita combined only has 9 assist to Messi 73 goals. But then, again it doesn't mean that Xavi/Iniesta were completely poor in Barca's system this year. They were still great and were involved in most of these 73 goals; perhaps it's Xavi who initiated a counter ect... And I'm curious to know which player did the most assist to Messi for these 73 goals. I'd put a bet on Alves/Alexis but I'm not sure.

    Now, this also begs a question - Messi scored 73 (wow), masterclass midfielders like Xavi/Iniesta did only 9 assist (wow), so most likely the whole Barca team made assist to Messi during this season, right?

    That' s the thing, Barcelona team plays for one sole player - Messi. Obviously, he needs to score a lot. In Madrid, despite Ronaldo's being continuously supplied, they also supply lots of ball to Benzema/Higuain/Ozil. That's another reason why Ronaldo's 60 goals this season is more commendable that RVP/Gomez stats and it's almost equal to Messi's 73 goals.

    Messi has no scoring rivals in Barcelona and add to that, their 3-4-3 resolves around him. Ronaldo - not only has competition from external world-class rival like Messi, RVP ect... - but he also has internal competition from top-class players like Benzema/Higuain. Suppose Mourinho asked his strikers Benzema/Higuain to feed Ronaldo more often that they does, don't you think Ronaldo would have been around 73 goals too? I think so, at the very least.

    You speak on consistency on 4-year basis, well, even Ronaldo kept improving in those 4 years. Messi keep breaking his own records and it's the same for Ronaldo. There's no huge gap as if CR7 kept the same level while Messi keeps improving. Both players gets better every year.

    Last thing on "La Liga title is a big title, but it doesn't equal Espana/CWC/Copa titles." Are you sure of that? La Liga is 38 matches. It requires consistency during 38 matches while Copa/Espana/CWC total number of match is 15. In fact, a League title is the hardest to win IMO. As I pointed last time, notice how many teams burned thier hands when they tried to play on both CL/League level. CL's title has more value since it globalizes best teams in Europe but nonetheless, I think League level is really exhausting. So, I'm sorry but IMO, La Liga not only equals Espana/CWC/Copa titles but La Liga holds greater merit than all 3 titles.

    Personally, I think Ronaldo got a better chance to win it this year than what he had last year. For me, 2008 was for CR7, 2009 for Messi, 2010 for Sneijder, 2011 for Xavi/Iniesta, this year shall be for either Messi or Ronaldo.

    So, all-in all, Messi's biggest asset for this Ballon D'Or will be his stats (while trophies won't count much). Ronaldo's biggest chance is that his stats are nearly as good and he got a Liga title as compensation in his pocket. A Euro will weigh even more.

    As for other potential - Xavi/Iniesta/Silva will have good chance if they have good Euro, Gomez/Ozil will be in Top10 if Germany go to Semi-Final at the very least and higher if they win it, Drogba will be in Top 10, if Benzema wins Euro with France, he'll be in Top 10 too (ranking will be interesting).

    It's really close for me but it's between Ronaldo/Messi IMO
     
         

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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Quote Originally Posted by ReLax - View Post
    As I said, titles aren't the only thing goals/assist are even better than Ronaldo. Pavel in general did a great season. Messi did an amazing one stat wise and accomplishment.
    seriously ronaldo is very consistent in every match that madrid played in la liga last season, while messi is not yeah he scored more goal but he did't score constantly in every match, thus make ronaldo a better player last season,

    ronaldo did an amazing season as a winger in real madrid while he compete against 2 1st class striker he still scored more goals than them, while messi played as striker and he's the only 1 in barca since alexis and villa spend most of their time in the bench cause of injury, so overall ronaldo situation is tougher than messi and yet he manage to accomplish all that feat,

    and also there is a reason why ronaldo is all around is better than messi as a football player, ronaldo is everywhere in the pitch sometimes you see him in the left and then in the right and suddenly he's in the middle, while messi only attack from mid right and upper right from the pitch and make run for it, the fact that he have small body is an advantage to him so the defender need to think twice before taking him down with body charge since messi is good at falling.

    their dribbling is equal
    ronaldo is faster
    ronaldo is better at air ball
    they're equal in term of finishing
    their technique is equal
    ronaldo is a better set piece taker/penalty kick
    ronaldo assist maker than messi, since most of messi assist in barca is short/through pass, while ronaldo most of ronaldo assist is both short/long through pass, it s easier to pass with short pass than a long pass,

    heck i don''t even know why barca use messi as a free kick/penalty taker while xavi is clearly better compared to him, well maybe he want to compete against ronaldo ?
     
         

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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Quote Originally Posted by Totsuka No Tsurugi View Post
    seriously ronaldo is very consistent in every match that madrid played in la liga last season, while messi is not yeah he scored more goal but he did't score constantly in every match, thus make ronaldo a better player last season,

    ronaldo did an amazing season as a winger in real madrid while he compete against 2 1st class striker he still scored more goals than them, while messi played as striker and he's the only 1 in barca since alexis and villa spend most of their time in the bench cause of injury, so overall ronaldo situation is tougher than messi and yet he manage to accomplish all that feat,

    and also there is a reason why ronaldo is all around is better than messi as a football player, ronaldo is everywhere in the pitch sometimes you see him in the left and then in the right and suddenly he's in the middle, while messi only attack from mid right and upper right from the pitch and make run for it, the fact that he have small body is an advantage to him so the defender need to think twice before taking him down with body charge since messi is good at falling.

    their dribbling is equal
    ronaldo is faster
    ronaldo is better at air ball
    they're equal in term of finishing
    their technique is equal
    ronaldo is a better set piece taker/penalty kick
    ronaldo assist maker than messi, since most of messi assist in barca is short/through pass, while ronaldo most of ronaldo assist is both short/long through pass, it s easier to pass with short pass than a long pass,

    heck i don''t even know why barca use messi as a free kick/penalty taker while xavi is clearly better compared to him, well maybe he want to compete against ronaldo ?
    Before ReLax rubs it on you and he'll rub it harsher since he's a Barca fan, let me tell you that Ronaldo wasn't that consistent. There were many matches when he didn't score. Sure, even Messi didn't score in all matches but then again, no player can score in all matches. Both are great scorer but despite being a CR7 fan, I'd admit that Messi thumped him scoring-wise.

    As I said in my post, I do agree on your second point though. Barca's system is around Messi - so he's forced to score more. While in CR7's case, he got many other players around who are world-class strikers. Ronaldo got both internal/external competition in terms of scoring while Messi has no one inside Barca to rival him as a scorer. And it was even truer this season with Villa out.

    No, Messi is more around the field than Ronaldo. Ronaldo only stays on his attributed flank and drops to the center or in the box when situation requires it. Messi roams all around the field since that's his role in Barcelona; no matter what the situation. Basically, if we look formation-wise, Messi has no position in Barcelona. It's 10 players serving him in whatever his position. It's called electron-free position. They play in 4-3-1 or 3-4-1 and Messi roams in this formation as 11th and star-man.

    Ability-wise - they are equal in IMO. See my post here in a thread where mostly I, ReLax and an @sshole with poor grammar kept debating. And ReLax, if we review this thread, we already answered almost everything on that topic.

    Obviously, he takes free-kick because of competition. Ronaldo may be a better set-piece taker but nowadays, goals competition is so fierce that all clubs heroes started to take free-kicks; even if they are second-best in that domain in their clubs. See Rooney, RVP, Drogba, Ibra, Robben ect...
     
         

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