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  1. #276
    The White Demon Totsuka No Tsurugi's Avatar
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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Quote Originally Posted by Escorpiius View Post
    Before ReLax rubs it on you and he'll rub it harsher since he's a Barca fan, let me tell you that Ronaldo wasn't that consistent. There were many matches when he didn't score. Sure, even Messi didn't score in all matches but then again, no player can score in all matches. Both are great scorer but despite being a CR7 fan, I'd admit that Messi thumped him scoring-wise.
    you're right but am not saying that ronaldo scored goal in every match i only said that he scored goal more often almost in every match, messi goal amount coming from his hat trick and quad trick in 1 match while ronaldo consistently scored goal almost in every match either its 1 or 3 goal,

    well am not CR7 fans but am a madridista for a player francesco totti is still the best for me

    Quote Originally Posted by Escorpiius View Post
    As I said in my post, I do agree on your second point though. Barca's system is around Messi - so he's forced to score more. While in CR7's case, he got many other players around who are world-class strikers. Ronaldo got both internal/external competition in terms of scoring while Messi has no one inside Barca to rival him as a scorer. And it was even truer this season with Villa out.
    no problem in here

    Quote Originally Posted by Escorpiius View Post
    No, Messi is more around the field than Ronaldo. Ronaldo only stays on his attributed flank and drops to the center or in the box when situation requires it. Messi roams all around the field since that's his role in Barcelona; no matter what the situation. Basically, if we look formation-wise, Messi has no position in Barcelona. It's 10 players serving him in whatever his position. It's called electron-free position. They play in 4-3-1 or 3-4-1 and Messi roams in this formation as 11th and star-man.
    dude I've watch barca matched and all i see is messi run his ass from the right side and break through from there, he only started moving around when xavi and iniesta approaching the penalty box, and LOL at It's 10 players serving him how convenient is that ? no wonder he played like a kitten who lose it mother in WC 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Escorpiius View Post
    Ability-wise - they are equal in IMO. See my post here in a thread where mostly I, ReLax and an @sshole with poor grammar kept debating. And ReLax, if we review this thread, we already answered almost everything on that topic.

    Obviously, he takes free-kick because of competition. Ronaldo may be a better set-piece taker but nowadays, goals competition is so fierce that all clubs heroes started to take free-kicks; even if they are second-best in that domain in their clubs. See Rooney, RVP, Drogba, Ibra, Robben ect...
    no problem in here too
     
         

  2. #277
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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Quote Originally Posted by Totsuka No Tsurugi View Post
    you're right but am not saying that ronaldo scored goal in every match i only said that he scored goal more often almost in every match, messi goal amount coming from his hat trick and quad trick in 1 match while ronaldo consistently scored goal almost in every match either its 1 or 3 goal,

    dude I've watch barca matched and all i see is messi run his ass from the right side and break through from there, he only started moving around when xavi and iniesta approaching the penalty box, and LOL at It's 10 players serving him how convenient is that ? no wonder he played like a kitten who lose it mother in WC 2010
    No, he didn't score consistently in almost every match. He did lots of 2-3 matches-in a row without scoring; mostly in 2011. His form and consistency went crescendo with the 1st leg of Copa Del Rey lost against Barcelona. See CR7's goals in each match. Notice how he was more consistent as from this match till the end of the season. So, yeah, if Ronaldo were as consistent as that in 2011, then maybe he would have close to 70-75 goals.

    Actually, it's not exactly like that. Thing is that Messi roams everywhere but he'll be more on right wing. Reason: He got great chemistry with Alexis and especially Alves. Another reason: Iniesta is more often in center instead of his left flank, so Messi combine less on that flank than on the right. Also, with Abidal/Villa injured and Pedro less often on the field, he ended the season more in center/right. However, Messi keep roaming all around the field.

    It's not convenient. It's how Pep build that team. He built a team based on Messi - rotating around Messi. And as all tactic, it has its weakness and advantages.

    But yeah, that's a reason why he's not so good in Argentina. Guys like Di Maria, Higuain, Tevez ect.. plays less for Messi since they have that striker-ego, unlike in Barcelona where even Villa plays for Messi. That's one reason why Ibra left. He wanted to play for himself and not play for that "dwarfed genius" but Pep stick to his decision to make the play for Messi. That's the coach's decision and Messi does well in that tactic, that's sure.
     
         

  3. #278
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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Quote Originally Posted by Escorpiius View Post
    No, he didn't score consistently in almost every match. He did lots of 2-3 matches-in a row without scoring; mostly in 2011. His form and consistency went crescendo with the 1st leg of Copa Del Rey lost against Barcelona. See CR7's goals in each match. Notice how he was more consistent as from this match till the end of the season. So, yeah, if Ronaldo were as consistent as that in 2011, then maybe he would have close to 70-75 goals.
    its consistent i dare say, even when Madrid lose or draw he still played very well, that what consistency am talking about its about overall performance by the player, pavel nedved score less goal than of the nominated player in 2003
    yet he still trump, how i love that old system before platini come,

    Quote Originally Posted by Escorpiius View Post
    Actually, it's not exactly like that. Thing is that Messi roams everywhere but he'll be more on right wing. Reason: He got great chemistry with Alexis and especially Alves. Another reason: Iniesta is more often in center instead of his left flank, so Messi combine less on that flank than on the right. Also, with Abidal/Villa injured and Pedro less often on the field, he ended the season more in center/right. However, Messi keep roaming all around the field.

    It's not convenient. It's how Pep build that team. He built a team based on Messi - rotating around Messi. And as all tactic, it has its weakness and advantages.
    its convenient for messi, but that kinda tactic won't make the players develop at all,since he get use to play like that, and if 1 missing then he's doomed.
     
         

  4. #279
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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Sports teams from the particular region in which I reside are far superior to sports teams from the particular region in which you reside.
     
         

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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Quote Originally Posted by Totsuka No Tsurugi View Post
    its consistent i dare say, even when Madrid lose or draw he still played very well, that what consistency am talking about its about overall performance by the player, pavel nedved score less goal than of the nominated player in 2003
    yet he still trump, how i love that old system before platini come,

    its convenient for messi, but that kinda tactic won't make the players develop at all,since he get use to play like that, and if 1 missing then he's doomed.
    Ah, Nedved Times where I liked Serie A...

    Moving on I don't think either CR7 or Messi did more than 5 bad matches in a whole season. So, yeah both are very consistent but Messi still scored more. And we don't have the old system for Ballon D'Or anyways.

    Take Chelsea's match, annihilate Messi and it's done. Take the 1st classico of Liga, Madrid blocks Messi but that leaves space for Alexis, Fab ect... and at the end, they lost the match. So, practically, they are not completely doomed.

    If it was so simple to block that tactic, we could be seeing Barcelona knocked out in QFs stages itself but football, bloody hell
     
         

  6. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by Escorpiius View Post
    Ah, Nedved Times where I liked Serie A...

    Moving on I don't think either CR7 or Messi did more than 5 bad matches in a whole season. So, yeah both are very consistent but Messi still scored more. And we don't have the old system for Ballon D'Or anyways.

    Take Chelsea's match, annihilate Messi and it's done. Take the 1st classico of Liga, Madrid blocks Messi but that leaves space for Alexis, Fab ect... and at the end, they lost the match. So, practically, they are not completely doomed.

    If it was so simple to block that tactic, we could be seeing Barcelona knocked out in QFs stages itself but football, bloody hell
    Sports teams from the particular region in which I reside are far superior to sports teams from the particular region in which you reside.

    Sports teams from the particular region in which I reside are far superior to sports teams from the particular region in which you reside.
     
         
    Last edited by Ira; 06-19-2012 at 01:17 PM. Reason: Do not scream not double post.

  7. #282
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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Quote Originally Posted by Escorpiius View Post
    Ah, Nedved Times where I liked Serie A...

    Moving on I don't think either CR7 or Messi did more than 5 bad matches in a whole season. So, yeah both are very consistent but Messi still scored more. And we don't have the old system for Ballon D'Or anyways.

    Take Chelsea's match, annihilate Messi and it's done. Take the 1st classico of Liga, Madrid blocks Messi but that leaves space for Alexis, Fab ect... and at the end, they lost the match. So, practically, they are not completely doomed.

    If it was so simple to block that tactic, we could be seeing Barcelona knocked out in QFs stages itself but football, bloody hell
    you misunderstood me here
    its not barcelona whose doomed its messi
    take away xavi and iniesta and let see how messi play his role,
    barca can still played extremely well without messi,
    while madrid really need ronaldo to lead their attacking prowess,
     
         
    Last edited by Totsuka No Tsurugi; 06-19-2012 at 12:13 PM.

  8. #283
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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Quote Originally Posted by Totsuka No Tsurugi View Post
    you misunderstood me here
    its not barcelona whose doomed its messi
    take away xavi and iniesta and let see how messi play his role,
    barca can still played extremely well without messi,
    while madrid really need ronaldo to lead their attacking prowess,
    Let me guess, he'll be supply by Fabregas, Alexis, Pedro, Cuenca, Busquets, Alves, Tello, Thiago, Puyol, Maschereno, Pique, possibly Bale or J.Alba soon and other future signings. Sincerely, since all these players will serve him and since most these players are great in possession football tactic, I just don't smell doom for Messi.
     
         

  9. #284
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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Quote Originally Posted by Escorpiius View Post
    Let me guess, he'll be supply by Fabregas, Alexis, Pedro, Cuenca, Busquets, Alves, Tello, Thiago, Puyol, Maschereno, Pique, possibly Bale or J.Alba soon and other future signings. Sincerely, since all these players will serve him and since most these players are great in possession football tactic, I just don't smell doom for Messi.
    its already happen, when barca played 3-2 against Osasuna
     
         

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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Quote Originally Posted by Totsuka No Tsurugi View Post
    its already happen, when barca played 3-2 against Osasuna
    Exactly and don't forget the upcoming great transfer players that might come and upcoming great talents of La Massia.
     
         

  11. #286
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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Quote Originally Posted by Escorpiius View Post
    Exactly and don't forget the upcoming great transfer players that might come and upcoming great talents of La Massia.
    by the way barca lose against osasuna 3-2 you know
    but 1st barca need to fix their financials problem.
     
         

  12. #287
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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Quote Originally Posted by Totsuka No Tsurugi View Post
    by the way barca lose against osasuna 3-2 you know
    but 1st barca need to fix their financials problem.
    I thought, you said they won 3-2 but nonetheless, they must have won certain matches without Iniesta/Xavi. So yeah, my point still remains.

    And as far as financial problems is concerned, it's true but they'll find a way to keep buying players like they've repeatedly been doing.
     
         

  13. #288
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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Quote Originally Posted by Escorpiius View Post
    I thought, you said they won 3-2 but nonetheless, they must have won certain matches without Iniesta/Xavi. So yeah, my point still remains.

    And as far as financial problems is concerned, it's true but they'll find a way to keep buying players like they've repeatedly been doing.
    most of the match that they played without xavi or iniesta ended up in a draw or lose, they win some but its not messi that become the star of that day,

    if they keep doing it that way then the amount of debt they owe to the banks will keep increasing and will hurts the club from inside like what happen with lazio and Leeds united.
     
         

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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Quote Originally Posted by Totsuka No Tsurugi View Post
    most of the match that they played without xavi or iniesta ended up in a draw or lose, they win some but its not messi that become the star of that day,

    if they keep doing it that way then the amount of debt they owe to the banks will keep increasing and will hurts the club from inside like what happen with lazio and Leeds united.
    I'll need stats for that and ReLax is better in finding that and I'm usually more apt to analyze it in depth.

    There are many clubs who are in debts. Some break down - most recently Rangers but many still are sticking for around. Sure, those debts will strike them someday but we'll never knew when. Speaking of owning, even La Liga are in serious debts actually. Many foreign TV cables are refusing to diffuse Liga matches for upcoming seasons. But anyways, the money impact on football right now is growing and growing and we'll barely be able to foresee how much it'll change football landscape someday. It's a timebomb but we don't know the amount of time remaining. It will blast someday though.
     
         

  15. #290
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    Re: General Football Debates!

    ok then its looks like shitstrom for me is about to begin, but relax is kinda late since i have others thing to do, maybe tomorrow.......
     
         

  16. #291
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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Escorps lazy on quoting too long so, will replay with no quote. I also forgot to mention we actually won 4 titles this season excluding UEFA Super Cup VS Porto.

    Well, who did Barca beat to get to the final? Madrid right? So, thats a weak argument. I'll say what Holland said after beating Germany in semi final in Euro 88 and winning final, "The semi was the final." We both know whoever won that game was pretty much going to capture Copa. At the end Barca knocked Madrid out, thus won. This doesn't change the fact they won it by beating Madrid also. Not like Bilbao knocked them out, but Barca did.

    Yes, but as I said it seemed both Barcelona/Madrid got somewhat the opposite teams. Barcelona could have beaten Munich, where as Madrid would also struggle Chelsea defence approach, but with many strikers and ones who can shoot outside the box, they'd have the better chance, were as Barcelona had only Messi, who was 3 man marked the entire game. The 5 goals were purely class, not a single one from PK or FK (PK I know, but sure FK no goal came) deserved and stellar performance by Messi.

    I come to an actual conclusion were I believe its more like you are tired of seeing Messi holding the summit for the past 3-4 years, due to that reason you try to find the best in other players who should win Ballon.

    Your guys convo regrading the Ballon in the past and Platini ruined it is really actually pointless. Lets speak of Nedved. He didn't score many goals, or win many titles that season, but yet he worked hard and was a influence for his club and had heart. I dare you to tell me Messi has none of those qualities in the past 3-4 years (determination/skill/accomplishment/success/influence/heart)? Not only has Messi had influence and been the heart of Barcelona, but he's won titles, including unrealistic statistics and you assume someone like Nedved had better season than Messi? This is what you both clearly stated.

    I mean back than Ballon D'or was a bit easier to determine, because you saw that one player stand out, compared to now we see Messi, Xavi, Inesita, and Ronaldo all with spectacular performance, and being the heart/soul of their respective teams, as well as their determination to win. Can we honestly without counting statistic determine a fair winner between them? Can you tell me out of these four (who have dominated in the last 3-4 years), one performed better than the other in overall? Or had more influence/heart for their respective teams? it cannot be statistic and accomplishment will always determine it, mainly statistic unless you win the big tournaments (WC, Euro, and CL).

    Can we honestly say Ronaldo was better because he played as winger and scored many goals? Can we say Messi being a lone striker managed to get Barcelona far, so he deserve it because of the heart he had? These would be nonsense, I'd rather have statistic/accomplishment determine this. Overall this season each player had the same influence and heart for their teams, but at the end and long ran Messi statistic and titles will play in his benefit.

    Can we both can agree Messi and Ronaldo had the same influence in their club? Both tried to win? There was courage from both guys? Right? How would you determine this? can you tell me Messi played better than Ronaldo, or vice versa? This is why at the end when you look Messi statistic better (13 goals more than Ronaldo and 13-14 assist), 4 titles, along with winning La Liga top scorer (pichichi), Ronaldo La Liga title. Ronaldo will only fall to statistic/accomplishments for club which is only logically any other reason would be ludicrous.

    I mean I'm sure you'd rather hear Ronaldo losing the Ballon D'or to Messi because of statistic/accomplishment rather than them saying he was inconsistence this season and was out played/classed by Messi (when he wasn't). I mean your one who says accomplishment/determination should be before stats, but yet both had determination, but Messi 4 titles you are overshadowing for Ronaldo 1. I mean even if you look at it clasico wise Messi has had the better of Madrid and Ronaldo. As I said I can only see stats/accomplishment separate these two to determine who's the best of that season, nothing else.

    Anyways Ronaldo winning Euros = capturing Ballon D'or, otherwise I don't see it.

    Thats the thing. Barcelona game may revolve around Messi, but that makes it even more difficult. Ronaldo still has space and room to create plays for others or himself due the space defence give him, because he hardly gets double team due to other threats being around the pitch. look at majority of his game compared to Messi. I'm not saying Ronaldo isn't defensively marked, but he does get a lot more room than Messi. So, this isn't really easy for him to score as you make it seem, especially since your the only striker making things happen and clubs pick up on that. Chelsea as example they doubled Xavi/Inesita and tripled Messi, and also took advantage of our weak defence. Xavi/Inesita played fantastic this year, but they also had to handle our defence with there possession of the football/pass, thus why less assist to Messi they had, but still created chance and had to relay on other, but this was one Xavi best season.

    Mistake we won 4 titles, I forgot the victory over Porto for the UEFA Super Cup. There we go again undermining Barcelona accomplishments. Who did we beat for Espana Cup? Thats right Madrid. We after that faced a strong Porto side to the UEFA Cup while Madrid got to take a little break. We went into the start of the season with more games played than anyone over the holidays, so could I blame this on fatigue are first loss that is? Can I blame are draw on due fatigue from other competition? We went for CWC while La Liga was on break, or played one game that week we played 3 games in six days, despite not being VS the strongest side, we still fought and are players aren't super human, so fatigue did kick in (we also lost Villa here who started this season off well). We came back to compete in La Liga/CL/Copa. At the end we played the most games than probably any club this season.

    Comparing to Madrid:

    Games played for Barcelona: 64 Record: 47-13-4 Poor defence = draws

    Games played for Real Madrid: 58 Record: 46-7-5

    We played 6 games more than Madrid while playing in every competition, with a bad defence side this year, but we still matched up there with the best. Playing an additional 6 games takes a lot of toll on the players and effects there performance (fatigue wise), not to mention Barcelona/Madrid Semi downfall came to facing each other in the clasico. not saying they'd win, but the chance was still there and the players would have been much more rested if not the clasico. So, actually 4 titles do not equal 1 (La Liga does't equal UEFA Cup/Espana/Copa/CWC) considering for UEFA and CWC we had to win CL to qualify the year before and we beat/knocked out Madrid for Espana/Copa. Barcelona still tasted most the success this season. In Copa we had Pinto start if not all majority of the games another disadvantage (VS Madrid he was in net) for us, I have yet to see Madrid back up start in net in the past two years VS us that is.

    Casillas played 53 games, meaning their back up played 5.

    Valdez played 51 meaning Pinto played 13.

    Madrid had everything going there way, good defence, amazing GK, offence was was very consistence, with the amount of assist goal scored. I mean no team is perfection, but Madrid clearly had the better side this season compared to others when you look at it, but we've seen the worst teams knock out the best, so it does happen.

    Look at it club wise Madrid won La Liga beating us to it, We beat them to Espana/Copa and have had the better result VS them and more titles in are cabinet this season. We both got booted from CL and we lost La Liga title. If we look at it either we can say the performance were on par, or Barcelona would have gotten the best for four titles + result VS Madrid. Messi VS Ronaldo as I said both performed fabulous with their respective clubs, I can't see anything separating them (other than Euro victory for CR7), and stats/accomplishment were Messi has the better of.

    Xavi/Inesita will/should win if their performance stays the same in Euros and they manage to win. IMO

    Otherwise as you said Messi/Ronaldo.

    And this other guy responding...Just wow. I'll reply to him in a seprate response in a bit.
     
         

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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Quote Originally Posted by Totsuka No Tsurugi View Post
    seriously ronaldo is very consistent in every match that madrid played in la liga last season, while messi is not yeah he scored more goal but he did't score constantly in every match, thus make ronaldo a better player last season,

    ronaldo did an amazing season as a winger in real madrid while he compete against 2 1st class striker he still scored more goals than them, while messi played as striker and he's the only 1 in barca since alexis and villa spend most of their time in the bench cause of injury, so overall ronaldo situation is tougher than messi and yet he manage to accomplish all that feat,

    and also there is a reason why ronaldo is all around is better than messi as a football player, ronaldo is everywhere in the pitch sometimes you see him in the left and then in the right and suddenly he's in the middle, while messi only attack from mid right and upper right from the pitch and make run for it, the fact that he have small body is an advantage to him so the defender need to think twice before taking him down with body charge since messi is good at falling.

    their dribbling is equal
    ronaldo is faster
    ronaldo is better at air ball
    they're equal in term of finishing
    their technique is equal
    ronaldo is a better set piece taker/penalty kick
    ronaldo assist maker than messi, since most of messi assist in barca is short/through pass, while ronaldo most of ronaldo assist is both short/long through pass, it s easier to pass with short pass than a long pass,

    heck i don''t even know why barca use messi as a free kick/penalty taker while xavi is clearly better compared to him, well maybe he want to compete against ronaldo ?
    Well I'm a Barca supporter, but doesn't mean I'll be harsh on you, or at least the way Escorps makes it seem. Despite being a Barca supporter I watch all Madrid games. I respect Ronaldo, but when it comes to seeing who's better I'm neutral. If Messi played anywhere else with this same performance I'd still back him as the best, wouldn't change my mind, and/or root for a Barcelona players.

    Ronaldo and Messi both have been consistence, but obviously haven't scored in every game, but if you want to speak of consistency Messi is the top scorer in all competition this season regardless, which is quite a consistency for him, as well as being the top scorer in CL for almost 4 years now and beating Ronaldo in league. Escorps already cleared this up.

    Ronaldo winger and Messi striker as I said to Escorps

    Thats the thing. Barcelona game may revolve around Messi, but that makes it even more difficult. Ronaldo still has space and room to create plays for others or himself due the space defence give him, because he hardly gets double team due to other threats being around the pitch. look at majority of his game compared to Messi. I'm not saying Ronaldo isn't defensively marked, but he does get a lot more room than Messi. So, this isn't really easy for him to score as you make it seem, especially since your the only striker making things happen and clubs pick up on that. Chelsea as example they doubled Xavi/Inesita and tripled Messi, and also took advantage of our weak defence. Xavi/Inesita played fantastic this year, but they also had to handle our defence with there possession of the football/pass, thus why less assist to Messi they had, but still created chance and had to relay on other, but this was one Xavi best season.
    I've already heard the argument regrading Ronaldo being the more complete player, but guess what? Pele, Maradona, and Cruyff were not complete, but yet are recognized as the best to play football. Anyways unlike Ronaldo, Messi gets compared to these strikers.

    Xavi is a good FK taker, but Messi is better and as PK goes if Xavi is better why aren't we seeing him take it for Spain? Its between Fabregas/Torres/Villa. Ronaldo hits the wall half the damn time were as Messi at least skims the post, or gets in on target were the GK catches/save, Messi hits the wall also, but less than Ronaldo.

    PS: Messi is the better playmaker, so don't go down the path of Ronaldo being better. He's good, but Messi is better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Totsuka No Tsurugi View Post
    its consistent i dare say, even when Madrid lose or draw he still played very well, that what consistency am talking about its about overall performance by the player, pavel nedved score less goal than of the nominated player in 2003
    yet he still trump, how i love that old system before platini come,

    Quote Originally Posted by Totsuka No Tsurugi View Post
    most of the match that they played without xavi or iniesta ended up in a draw or lose, they win some but its not messi that become the star of that day,
    Quote Originally Posted by Totsuka No Tsurugi View Post
    you misunderstood me here
    its not barcelona whose doomed its messi
    take away xavi and iniesta and let see how messi play his role,
    barca can still played extremely well without messi,
    while madrid really need ronaldo to lead their attacking prowess,
    When Barcelona lose, or draw and Messi still plays amazing, but is inconsistence, just as Ronaldo is. So, this is a flaw clearly these players can't be consistence if they aren't winning. It's obvious they are either failing to finish, or having a bad game if a victory isn't at hand.

    Once again wrong. Barcelona have won only 8 of 25 matches when Messi hasn't scored. Thats a 32% win rate, so Messi majority of the times is the star player of the matches. Xavi and Inesita are big to Barcelona/Messi, but they have performed without them, but Messi is a decissive factor for them. The game without Xavi/Inesita, Messi does become the star player, as he provides the plays and/or scores.

    Take away Ozil/Benzema/Di Maria lets see what Ronaldo does with Madrid. You speak as Ronaldo carries Madrid but he doesn't. Both have a influence on their respective squads, but Messi departure would hurt Barca more than Ronaldo to Madrid and I'm sure Escorps would agree. Madrid still have Benzema/Kaka/Ozil who can drop down to Ronaldo position, not as good as him, but would still be effective. Who could take Messi place currently? Fab/Sanchez/Pedro/Villa? All who are in and out on injury.

    Madrid can due without Ronaldo, so can Barcelona without Messi, but I'm sure many would agree Barcelona would lose the more.
     
         
    Last edited by ReLax -; 06-19-2012 at 10:42 PM.

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    Re: General Football Debates!

    The swedes are playing some dodging ugly football that im not liking.
    To be honest their style of play in this game is very similar to italy, so im not so fussed if we play spain instead because at least they dont pack a ****ing bus and play disgusting football.

    I believe france's style of play is more suited to beat spain than italy
     
         

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    Re: General Football Debates!

    obviously when the safety blitzes it's up to a decent linesman to throw up some blocking but really the full back needs to step up and take the hit providing decent blocks for either running back to score...

    Wait wrong football.
     
         

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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Quote Originally Posted by Nidaime Pupil View Post
    obviously when the safety blitzes it's up to a decent linesman to throw up some blocking but really the full back needs to step up and take the hit providing decent blocks for either running back to score...

    Wait wrong football.
    As if that wasn't clear with the posts before yours... Don't spam.
     
         

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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Patriots is the best team
     
         

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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Quote Originally Posted by NamikazeNagato View Post
    Patriots is the best team
    I hope you're joking but WRONG FOOTBALL.
     
         

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    Re: General Football Debates!

    So, Roman Abramovich was said to have stopped by Poland/Ukraine and visited germany national team...and he spoke with Schweinsteiger in person.

    Schweinsteiger says they just had a friendly conversation and he grats him for CL. I think it was more than that...Schweinsteiger, London next season? A long with Mou urging Madrid to push another deal for Schweinsteiger.
     
         

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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Well, ReLax, I guess it's the same thing. Too long of a post to quote but also, there's some numerous point upon which I don't agree in your reply.

    1. We both know whoever won that game was pretty much going to capture Copa. At the end Barca knocked Madrid out, thus won.

    I'm appalled how you can say that when you know very well that nothing is certain is football. Neither can we be sure that Madrid will have won the Copa if they beat Barca. Looking at Copa Del Rey's winners list, I don't see such a dominant Madrid-Barca list as La Liga is. I know that Liga will 9 out of 10 time always be a 2-horse race but Copa Del Rey is 2-legged KO comp. and anything was possible. Bilbao could have turned out tricky for Barca if it wasn't the farewell match of Pep.

    And same thing about if Barca/Madrid got inverse opponents. Sure, on paper, Madrid seems more apt to pierce Chelsea's paper and Bayern will be dominated more against Barca but we'll never know. This is all theory and as I said about, nothing is certain with football. The answer lies on a green pitch; not on paper.

    2. "I come to an actual conclusion were I believe its more like you are tired of seeing Messi holding the summit for the past 3-4 years, due to that reason you try to find the best in other players who should win Ballon."

    I don't like the fact that Messi won 3 times in a row when the only time he really deserved was in 2009 IMO. I'm tired that people keep saying as if there's a wide gap between Ronaldo and Messi. I agree they are the best 2 players. I agree that Messi was better than Ronaldo in 2009 & 2010 & also in 2011. However, I think Ronaldo is very close this time and it can go either way. People should admit that Ronaldo is closing in on Messi. Also, Messi perhaps had his best display since 2009 and Ronaldo perhaps did his best complete season since 2008.

    So, yeah what I'm actually tired is how you regard Messi as widely superior and how Totsuka regard Ronaldo as completely better. That's what I'm actually tired. I'd like people to admit that both these players are really close in mostly all matters.

    3. "I mean back than Ballon D'or was a bit easier to determine, because you saw that one player stand out, compared to now we see Messi, Xavi, Inesita, and Ronaldo all with spectacular performance, and being the heart/soul of their respective teams, as well as their determination to win. Can we honestly without counting statistic determine a fair winner between them? Can you tell me out of these four (who have dominated in the last 3-4 years), one performed better than the other in overall? Or had more influence/heart for their respective teams? It cannot be! Statistics and accomplishment will always determine it, mainly statistic unless you win the big tournaments (WC, Euro, and CL)."

    Yes. We can determine a fair winner without relying on Statistics solely. I hate to go again on why I dislike Ballon D'Or actual system but your arguments force me to do so cause you still don't think to get my point.

    Long ago, there was an exclusive Panel and exclusive journalists; that was here to judge the players. As seasons advances, they spot players who was more and more influential in their teams and in matches. After shortlisting those players, they decided to judge them all in mostly all their matches. How they influence positively or negatively a match, how they confront their obstacles and tactics put against them, how they instill positive footballing attitudes, how he carries a team collectively and individually, their stats and also how much he accomplishes. Points are given to each player depending on those criteria. THAT was a fair system.

    The problem now is that this Special Judging Panel has been dissoluted to 50% or less. The remaining decision to award the Ballon is handed to more journalists and coaches. In 2007, any player in the world became eligible but a curse was also started: The number of journalists allowed to vote also increased!! That was the start of the downfall to the Jury system and in 2010, it has worsen when FIFA and France Football merged to form FIFA Ballon d'Or. Afterwards, it's not even points but simply a global voting and its percentage. That's just popular voting. It's like political election of best Football Player; not an award for Most Rewarding.

    Now, obviously, it's not those new ******* panel's job to supervise players for a whole season. So, they'll take the easy route out of it. They'll make the decision out of stats. They'll barely take into accounts the global influence of that player and even trophies accomplishments are mostly disregarded. Also, they'll do a popular decision; that is, they'll award it to 2 players who, ability-wise are the Best in the World. Thus, they are no more awarding the player who was Better last season.

    That's the issue with Ballon D'Or. It's not more about awarding the Best Player of a Season but it's about awarding who's the Best Player Overall. It's not the same thing, since no matter what there's no 2 players better than Ronaldo/Messi. Brilliant footballers like Xavi/Iniesta ect... will never win since they lack those abilities. No matter if they win all trophies. That's a travesty IMO. You may as well just ask among everyone who's better among Ronaldo and Messi and we'll get out annual Ballon D'Or.

    Why take the millions remaining players' season into consideration? Why? It's just giving fake hope to them. It's almost an insult in disguise of honor. Like "Congrats, you did a great season, so we're giving you 3rd place next to our two gems. You should be proud of your 3rd place even if you were more influential in your whole season. Be proud..."

    So, I completely disagree when you say that Ballon D'Or was easier to determine long ago. Long ago, there was a REAL jury to determine. Now there's not! And it's not a matter of having 4/5 top-class players vying for it, it's the whole system who's bogus and biased. Even at that time, there were many great players with great abilities but like every season, there's always 2-3 players who seem to be more visible in that lot after each season. That hasn't changed but the system did.

    Nedved, Shevchenko, Figo, Canavarro ect... didn't win because of lack of competition. They were judged better than in a global season and earned more points than their counter-parts. Even if players with superior skills like Zidane, Ronaldinho, Ronaldo (Brazil), Henry ect... all existed at that time. But more criteria were taken into consideration then; unlike now.

    4. "Can we honestly say Ronaldo was better because he played as winger and scored many goals? Can we say Messi being a lone striker managed to get Barcelona far, so he deserve it because of the heart he had? These would be nonsense, I'd rather have statistic/accomplishment determine this. Overall this season each player had the same influence and heart for their teams, but at the end and long ran Messi statistic and titles will play in his benefit.

    Can we both can agree Messi and Ronaldo had the same influence in their club? Both tried to win? There was courage from both guys? Right? How would you determine this? can you tell me Messi played better than Ronaldo, or vice versa? This is why at the end when you look Messi statistic better (13 goals more than Ronaldo and 13-14 assist), 4 titles, along with winning La Liga top scorer (pichichi), Ronaldo La Liga title. Ronaldo will only fall to statistic/accomplishments for club which is only logically any other reason would be ludicrous."


    Yes, I agree both had same influence.

    Yes, I agree that both are not only talented but has lots of heart, determination and are 2 diverse positive inspiration for footballers.

    Yes, both have amazing stats/accomplishments.

    However, I still don't accept that Statistics influence this decision of Ballon D'Or so wrongly and exaggeratedly. There's IS way to determine all the criteria - including how much they influence every match, how much they succeed in a match, how much they give it a match ect... Or atleast, there WAS a way that they removed when system changed. By saying you'd rather have statistics determine this, is the same as those money-blinded hypocrites' way of judging. It's just taking the easy way out.

    5. "I mean I'm sure you'd rather hear Ronaldo losing the Ballon D'or to Messi because of statistic/accomplishment rather than them saying he was inconsistence this season and was out played/classed by Messi (when he wasn't). I mean your one who says accomplishment/determination should be before stats, but yet both had determination, but Messi 4 titles you are overshadowing for Ronaldo 1. I mean even if you look at it clasico wise Messi has had the better of Madrid and Ronaldo. As I said I can only see stats/accomplishment separate these two to determine who's the best of that season, nothing else.

    Anyways Ronaldo winning Euros = capturing Ballon D'or, otherwise I don't see it."


    No way! I'd rather have Ronaldo lose fair and square with a real system against Messi. It's as simple as that. Bring back the real system. The fair system. Where there was considerably less debate on why this/that player win it. And considering both guys' genius and talent, it will be fitting that they can say in later years, that they won it during the same fair system.

    Sure, I agree that with the current system, Ronaldo winning Ballon D'Or might give the real edge to CR7 but overall speaking, they are really close cause even statistically, they're close. Even with this shameful system, they'll be close to each other. But since it's a popularity contest, it gives a fake extra point to Messi. Most coaches vote for Messi, it's just like that.

    6. "Thats the thing. Barcelona game may revolve around Messi, but that makes it even more difficult. Ronaldo still has space and room to create plays for others or himself due the space defence give him, because he hardly gets double team due to other threats being around the pitch. look at majority of his game compared to Messi. I'm not saying Ronaldo isn't defensively marked, but he does get a lot more room than Messi. So, this isn't really easy for him to score as you make it seem, especially since your the only striker making things happen and clubs pick up on that. Chelsea as example they doubled Xavi/Inesita and tripled Messi, and also took advantage of our weak defence. Xavi/Inesita played fantastic this year, but they also had to handle our defence with there possession of the football/pass, thus why less assist to Messi they had, but still created chance and had to relay on other, but this was one Xavi best season."

    Messi is a better dribbler and passer compared to Ronaldo. So, it's obvious that Messi gets 2-3 defenders on him. While Ronaldo gets only 1-2 players on him. I can't deny that Ronaldo gets more space than Messi in a game. However, it's also true that Ronaldo gets less ball to him than Messi does. It's one point for Messi and one point for Ronaldo in that case; just like what I'm saying. They're close and neither got a distinct advantage over the other.

    Even if Ronaldo doesn't win Euro, I still think that he may win Ballon D'Or - just like Messi. They are almost equal IMO and if Ronaldo wins Euro; but not Ballon D'Or, then it's just more dirt on the prestige of that award.

    7. "There we go again undermining Barcelona accomplishments."

    I'm not undermining any of their accomplishments. However, it's just not that 4 trophies that they wanted at the start of the season. Their primary objective was mostly Liga/CL and they didn't win any. At the least, Madrid can say to have one of that. Sure, Barca did an extremely exhausting season and I acknowledged that since long, I think. If not, I do now. Still, it's the Liga who's the primary factor of that fatigue and in the end, they fought for it in vain since they didn't win it. Sure, Barcelona still tasted most the success this season like you said but it's still not as sweet as Barcelona wanted it to be. Their Super-cup/CWC/Superliga are just trophies that they did 1-2 matches for and it's should mostly be added on their trophies they won in 2011. Since, it's because they won Liga/CL that they were able to challenge those trophies.

    From afresh point of view, Madrid/Barca started the season vying for La Liga/CL/Copa. At the end, CR7's Madrid won Liga while Messi's Barca won Copa. And Liga was harder to win. The remaining trophies are compensation that don't weigh much but it's enough to make Ronaldo and Messi again very close to each other even in accomplishment level. It should be really tight.
    Quote Originally Posted by ReLax - View Post
    So, Roman Abramovich was said to have stopped by Poland/Ukraine and visited germany national team...and he spoke with Schweinsteiger in person.

    Schweinsteiger says they just had a friendly conversation and he grats him for CL. I think it was more than that...Schweinsteiger, London next season? A long with Mou urging Madrid to push another deal for Schweinsteiger.

    If Chelsea buys Hulk and Schweinsteiger successfully, I might start placing 1-2 coins on their chances to retain the CL.
     
         
    Last edited by Escorpiius; 06-20-2012 at 11:05 AM.

  25. #300
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    Re: General Football Debates!

    i actually i have a lot to say regarding relax post, but after reading escorp post, i decide not to since he already state almost everything that i want to address, and with that i came into conclusion that, no matter what we said its not us who decided it,

    we can rant all we want regarding messi and ronaldo but of course its just for our own amusement, madrid fans will rooting for ronaldo and barca fans will rooting for messi to the very end,

    so lets just ban this messi and ronaldo comparison debate and move on to the other problems in the football world,

    but before that i find some nice picture
     
         

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