Well, ReLax, I guess it's the same thing. Too long of a post to quote but also, there's some numerous point upon which I don't agree in your reply.
1. We both know whoever won that game was pretty much going to capture Copa. At the end Barca knocked Madrid out, thus won.
I'm appalled how you can say that when you know very well that nothing is certain is football. Neither can we be sure that Madrid will have won the Copa if they beat Barca. Looking at Copa Del Rey's winners list, I don't see such a dominant Madrid-Barca list as La Liga is. I know that Liga will 9 out of 10 time always be a 2-horse race but Copa Del Rey is 2-legged KO comp. and anything was possible. Bilbao could have turned out tricky for Barca if it wasn't the farewell match of Pep.
And same thing about if Barca/Madrid got inverse opponents. Sure, on paper, Madrid seems more apt to pierce Chelsea's paper and Bayern will be dominated more against Barca but we'll never know. This is all theory and as I said about, nothing is certain with football. The answer lies on a green pitch; not on paper.
2. "I come to an actual conclusion were I believe its more like you are tired of seeing Messi holding the summit for the past 3-4 years, due to that reason you try to find the best in other players who should win Ballon."
I don't like the fact that Messi won 3 times in a row when the only time he really deserved was in 2009 IMO. I'm tired that people keep saying as if there's a wide gap between Ronaldo and Messi. I agree they are the best 2 players. I agree that Messi was better than Ronaldo in 2009 & 2010 & also in 2011. However, I think Ronaldo is very close this time and it can go either way. People should admit that Ronaldo is closing in on Messi. Also, Messi perhaps had his best display since 2009 and Ronaldo perhaps did his best complete season since 2008.
So, yeah what I'm actually tired is how you regard Messi as widely superior and how Totsuka regard Ronaldo as completely better. That's what I'm actually tired. I'd like people to admit that both these players are really close in mostly all matters.
3. "I mean back than Ballon D'or was a bit easier to determine, because you saw that one player stand out, compared to now we see Messi, Xavi, Inesita, and Ronaldo all with spectacular performance, and being the heart/soul of their respective teams, as well as their determination to win. Can we honestly without counting statistic determine a fair winner between them? Can you tell me out of these four (who have dominated in the last 3-4 years), one performed better than the other in overall? Or had more influence/heart for their respective teams? It cannot be! Statistics and accomplishment will always determine it, mainly statistic unless you win the big tournaments (WC, Euro, and CL)."
Yes. We can determine a fair winner without relying on Statistics solely. I hate to go again on why I dislike Ballon D'Or actual system but your arguments force me to do so cause you still don't think to get my point.
Long ago, there was an exclusive Panel and exclusive journalists; that was here to judge the players. As seasons advances, they spot players who was more and more influential in their teams and in matches. After shortlisting those players, they decided to judge them all in mostly all their matches. How they influence positively or negatively a match, how they confront their obstacles and tactics put against them, how they instill positive footballing attitudes, how he carries a team collectively and individually, their stats and also how much he accomplishes. Points are given to each player depending on those criteria. THAT was a fair system.
The problem now is that this Special Judging Panel has been dissoluted to 50% or less. The remaining decision to award the Ballon is handed to more journalists and coaches. In 2007, any player in the world became eligible but a curse was also started: The number of journalists allowed to vote also increased!! That was the start of the downfall to the Jury system and in 2010, it has worsen when FIFA and France Football merged to form FIFA Ballon d'Or. Afterwards, it's not even points but simply a global voting and its percentage. That's just popular voting. It's like political election of best Football Player; not an award for Most Rewarding.
Now, obviously, it's not those new ******* panel's job to supervise players for a whole season. So, they'll take the easy route out of it. They'll make the decision out of stats. They'll barely take into accounts the global influence of that player and even trophies accomplishments are mostly disregarded. Also, they'll do a popular decision; that is, they'll award it to 2 players who, ability-wise are the Best in the World. Thus, they are no more awarding the player who was Better last season.
That's the issue with Ballon D'Or. It's not more about awarding the Best Player of a Season but it's about awarding who's the Best Player Overall. It's not the same thing, since no matter what there's no 2 players better than Ronaldo/Messi. Brilliant footballers like Xavi/Iniesta ect... will never win since they lack those abilities. No matter if they win all trophies. That's a travesty IMO. You may as well just ask among everyone who's better among Ronaldo and Messi and we'll get out annual Ballon D'Or.
Why take the millions remaining players' season into consideration? Why? It's just giving fake hope to them. It's almost an insult in disguise of honor. Like "Congrats, you did a great season, so we're giving you 3rd place next to our two gems. You should be proud of your 3rd place even if you were more influential in your whole season. Be proud..."
So, I completely disagree when you say that Ballon D'Or was easier to determine long ago. Long ago, there was a REAL jury to determine. Now there's not! And it's not a matter of having 4/5 top-class players vying for it, it's the whole system who's bogus and biased. Even at that time, there were many great players with great abilities but like every season, there's always 2-3 players who seem to be more visible in that lot after each season. That hasn't changed but the system did.
Nedved, Shevchenko, Figo, Canavarro ect... didn't win because of lack of competition. They were judged better than in a global season and earned more points than their counter-parts. Even if players with superior skills like Zidane, Ronaldinho, Ronaldo (Brazil), Henry ect... all existed at that time. But more criteria were taken into consideration then; unlike now.
4. "Can we honestly say Ronaldo was better because he played as winger and scored many goals? Can we say Messi being a lone striker managed to get Barcelona far, so he deserve it because of the heart he had? These would be nonsense, I'd rather have statistic/accomplishment determine this. Overall this season each player had the same influence and heart for their teams, but at the end and long ran Messi statistic and titles will play in his benefit.
Can we both can agree Messi and Ronaldo had the same influence in their club? Both tried to win? There was courage from both guys? Right? How would you determine this? can you tell me Messi played better than Ronaldo, or vice versa? This is why at the end when you look Messi statistic better (13 goals more than Ronaldo and 13-14 assist), 4 titles, along with winning La Liga top scorer (pichichi), Ronaldo La Liga title. Ronaldo will only fall to statistic/accomplishments for club which is only logically any other reason would be ludicrous."
Yes, I agree both had same influence.
Yes, I agree that both are not only talented but has lots of heart, determination and are 2 diverse positive inspiration for footballers.
Yes, both have amazing stats/accomplishments.
However, I still don't accept that Statistics influence this decision of Ballon D'Or so wrongly and exaggeratedly. There's IS way to determine all the criteria - including how much they influence every match, how much they succeed in a match, how much they give it a match ect... Or atleast, there WAS a way that they removed when system changed. By saying you'd rather have statistics determine this, is the same as those money-blinded hypocrites' way of judging. It's just taking the easy way out.
5. "I mean I'm sure you'd rather hear Ronaldo losing the Ballon D'or to Messi because of statistic/accomplishment rather than them saying he was inconsistence this season and was out played/classed by Messi (when he wasn't). I mean your one who says accomplishment/determination should be before stats, but yet both had determination, but Messi 4 titles you are overshadowing for Ronaldo 1. I mean even if you look at it clasico wise Messi has had the better of Madrid and Ronaldo. As I said I can only see stats/accomplishment separate these two to determine who's the best of that season, nothing else.
Anyways Ronaldo winning Euros = capturing Ballon D'or, otherwise I don't see it."
No way! I'd rather have Ronaldo lose fair and square with a real system against Messi. It's as simple as that. Bring back the real system. The fair system. Where there was considerably less debate on why this/that player win it. And considering both guys' genius and talent, it will be fitting that they can say in later years, that they won it during the same fair system.
Sure, I agree that with the current system, Ronaldo winning Ballon D'Or might give the real edge to CR7 but overall speaking, they are really close cause even statistically, they're close. Even with this shameful system, they'll be close to each other. But since it's a popularity contest, it gives a fake extra point to Messi. Most coaches vote for Messi, it's just like that.
6. "Thats the thing. Barcelona game may revolve around Messi, but that makes it even more difficult. Ronaldo still has space and room to create plays for others or himself due the space defence give him, because he hardly gets double team due to other threats being around the pitch. look at majority of his game compared to Messi. I'm not saying Ronaldo isn't defensively marked, but he does get a lot more room than Messi. So, this isn't really easy for him to score as you make it seem, especially since your the only striker making things happen and clubs pick up on that. Chelsea as example they doubled Xavi/Inesita and tripled Messi, and also took advantage of our weak defence. Xavi/Inesita played fantastic this year, but they also had to handle our defence with there possession of the football/pass, thus why less assist to Messi they had, but still created chance and had to relay on other, but this was one Xavi best season."
Messi is a better dribbler and passer compared to Ronaldo. So, it's obvious that Messi gets 2-3 defenders on him. While Ronaldo gets only 1-2 players on him. I can't deny that Ronaldo gets more space than Messi in a game. However, it's also true that Ronaldo gets less ball to him than Messi does. It's one point for Messi and one point for Ronaldo in that case; just like what I'm saying. They're close and neither got a distinct advantage over the other.
Even if Ronaldo doesn't win Euro, I still think that he may win Ballon D'Or - just like Messi. They are almost equal IMO and if Ronaldo wins Euro; but not Ballon D'Or, then it's just more dirt on the prestige of that award.
7. "There we go again undermining Barcelona accomplishments."
I'm not undermining any of their accomplishments. However, it's just not that 4 trophies that they wanted at the start of the season. Their primary objective was mostly Liga/CL and they didn't win any. At the least, Madrid can say to have one of that. Sure, Barca did an extremely exhausting season and I acknowledged that since long, I think. If not, I do now. Still, it's the Liga who's the primary factor of that fatigue and in the end, they fought for it in vain since they didn't win it. Sure, Barcelona still tasted most the success this season like you said but it's still not as sweet as Barcelona wanted it to be. Their Super-cup/CWC/Superliga are just trophies that they did 1-2 matches for and it's should mostly be added on their trophies they won in 2011. Since, it's because they won Liga/CL that they were able to challenge those trophies.
From afresh point of view, Madrid/Barca started the season vying for La Liga/CL/Copa. At the end, CR7's Madrid won Liga while Messi's Barca won Copa. And Liga was harder to win. The remaining trophies are compensation that don't weigh much but it's enough to make Ronaldo and Messi again very close to each other even in accomplishment level. It should be really tight.
Originally Posted by ReLax -
If Chelsea buys Hulk and Schweinsteiger successfully, I might start placing 1-2 coins on their chances to retain the CL.