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  1. #341
    Més que un club ReLax -'s Avatar
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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Sorry for the late response had some work and university stuff to deal with

    Messi/Ronaldo response.

    Long ago, there was an exclusive Panel and exclusive journalists; that was here to judge the players. As seasons advances, they spot players who was more and more influential in their teams and in matches. After shortlisting those players, they decided to judge them all in mostly all their matches. How they influence positively or negatively a match, how they confront their obstacles and tactics put against them, how they instill positive footballing attitudes, how he carries a team collectively and individually, their stats and also how much he accomplishes. Points are given to each player depending on those criteria. THAT was a fair system.
    Lets look at this.

    Influential - We both agreed Messi a long with Ronaldo are influential for their clubs. Positive/Negative we can look at some other time.

    Obstacles/Tactics - This can vary every season, but both compete with one another and play their tactics/roles well.

    Attitudes - We can agree Messi does have the better attitude? Can we?

    Carry - Messi has carried Barcelona a lot more this season, not saying Ronaldo hasn't (for Madrid) but the data supports Messi nevertheless.

    Messi - 73 Goals 29 Assists
    Fabregas - 15 Goals 20 Assists
    Sanchez - 15 Goals 5 Assists
    Xavi - 14 Goals 16 Assists

    Ronaldo - 60 Goals 16 Assist
    Benzema - 32 Goals 15 Assists
    Higuain - 26 Goals 10 Assists
    Ozil - 10 Goals 24 Assists

    Also Barcelona have only 32% win rate when Messi doesn't score, hence why he carried Barcelona quite a bit this season. When CR never scored Madrid still got majority of the victories.

    When you look at it both were, very close, but carrying the club I'd say Messi, which may also, just slightly edge him past Ronaldo influence wise to (this season).

    Regardless I have just described to you how Messi even meets the old criteria for the past 3-4 years.

    At the end there isn't a big gap between the two, but this season I think Messi just edged Ronaldo by that 1%.

    Now, obviously, it's not those new ******* panel's job to supervise players for a whole season. So, they'll take the easy route out of it. They'll make the decision out of stats. They'll barely take into accounts the global influence of that player and even trophies accomplishments are mostly disregarded. Also, they'll do a popular decision; that is, they'll award it to 2 players who, ability-wise are the Best in the World. Thus, they are no more awarding the player who was Better last season.
    I disagree here. Last year Xavi has the most loved/popular footballer around the world, even in 2010 after WC he was. Iniesta is among him also.

    That's the issue with Ballon D'Or. It's not more about awarding the Best Player of a Season but it's about awarding who's the Best Player Overall. It's not the same thing, since no matter what there's no 2 players better than Ronaldo/Messi. Brilliant footballers like Xavi/Iniesta ect... will never win since they lack those abilities. No matter if they win all trophies. That's a travesty IMO. You may as well just ask among everyone who's better among Ronaldo and Messi and we'll get out annual Ballon D'Or.
    I agree. I believe both deserve more than one Ballon if you ask me, but Messi has just been Messi. He's been a phenomenal in the past 3-4 years. His growth has been amazing and he only gets better, with a lot of club/individual accomplishment, including breaking records set by legends, its hard to face that. When both Messi/Ronaldo have a off season than will see someone else. I've already up top describe how Messi meets the old criteria nevertheless.

    If you read Ronaldo (Brazilian) latest interview he even admits Messi is the best in the world despite being a Madrid supporter, which makes him rival to Barcelona and the fact that he is Brazilian, which makes him another rival country wise with Argentina. its his opinion, but its not like he is bullshitting, but rather accepting the facts in front of him.

    Why take the millions remaining players' season into consideration? Why? It's just giving fake hope to them. It's almost an insult in disguise of honor. Like "Congrats, you did a great season, so we're giving you 3rd place next to our two gems. You should be proud of your 3rd place even if you were more influential in your whole season. Be proud..."
    I think to players its an honour to be nominate and especially a long side Messi/Ronaldo. No one really complains considering a lot of players complain match wise award wise I don't think they have a reason to complain, but all the humble players could careless about this trophy, they just want to improve and help their nation/club as much as they can. The fact of being nominated is good enough for them.

    However, I still don't accept that Statistics influence this decision of Ballon D'Or so wrongly and exaggeratedly. There's IS way to determine all the criteria - including how much they influence every match, how much they succeed in a match, how much they give it a match ect... Or atleast, there WAS a way that they removed when system changed. By saying you'd rather have statistics determine this, is the same as those money-blinded hypocrites' way of judging. It's just taking the easy way out.
    73 goals? 60 goals? This will already be consider as an influence in the game. As I said players barely scored 50 goals a reason. Messi has done that almost 4 years now, while Ronaldo has for 2 years?

    Sure, I agree that with the current system, Ronaldo winning Ballon D'Or might give the real edge to CR7 but overall speaking, they are really close cause even statistically, they're close. Even with this shameful system, they'll be close to each other. But since it's a popularity contest, it gives a fake extra point to Messi. Most coaches vote for Messi, it's just like that.
    I disagree with this. Not really a popularity contest. If that was the case more than half the coaches rather have Xavi and/or Iniesta over Messi/Ronaldo. As I said Messi has been always that 1% better. If Ronaldo has a season were he performs at 100%, Messi will perform at 101% (thats the way its been for the past 3-4 years). Also Messi has outshines Ronaldo in majority of there meetings this season and obviously others.

    Messi is a better dribbler and passer compared to Ronaldo. So, it's obvious that Messi gets 2-3 defenders on him. While Ronaldo gets only 1-2 players on him. I can't deny that Ronaldo gets more space than Messi in a game. However, it's also true that Ronaldo gets less ball to him than Messi does. It's one point for Messi and one point for Ronaldo in that case; just like what I'm saying. They're close and neither got a distinct advantage over the other.
    Ronaldo gets the ball quite a bit actually wouldn't say that Ronaldo sees the ball less than Messi. When a attack goes the ball usually goes towards the wing were Ronaldo is. This year maybe Messi took more shots, but usually Ronaldo has more like in 10/11 season Messi 177 shots, Ronaldo 213 shots.

    I'm not undermining any of their accomplishments. However, it's just not that 4 trophies that they wanted at the start of the season. Their primary objective was mostly Liga/CL and they didn't win any. At the least, Madrid can say to have one of that. Sure, Barca did an extremely exhausting season and I acknowledged that since long, I think. If not, I do now. Still, it's the Liga who's the primary factor of that fatigue and in the end, they fought for it in vain since they didn't win it. Sure, Barcelona still tasted most the success this season like you said but it's still not as sweet as Barcelona wanted it to be. Their Super-cup/CWC/Superliga are just trophies that they did 1-2 matches for and it's should mostly be added on their trophies they won in 2011. Since, it's because they won Liga/CL that they were able to challenge those trophies.
    Espana and Copa we beat Madrid in a 2 game match each, which we got the best of it. Are you saying Madrid never tried those games? I'm not going to sit here and complain, but we did ever a weak defence this season with Puyol/Abidal in and out and Pique lost in Shakira thought he only played 20 games or less this season. Yet look how far we managed because of mostly Messi, Xavi, and Ineista. We seemed like in reach for the La Liga/CL until those 6 days of terror.

    Anyways regardless this can go on for days, may the best man win and we will surely be back on this topic next season, if not it may trigger in sometime soon again.


    I will respond to Inesita/Zidane discussion and than move on from there.


    Response to Hawker

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawker View Post
    I have never seen Iniesta being that versatile on the field, or as skillful. The vid just proves Zidane is one of the best if not the best player of the last two decades. Comparing Iniesta to him is just not right.

    From the former stars you could maybe compare him to Totti or Nedved. But players like Zidane, Rivaldo, brazilian Ronaldo are/were in the class of their own.
    Do you even watch Barcelona/Spain play? Iniesta plays two different positions Attacking midfield is his main, but he plays winger a lot of the times for Spain and at times for Barcelona now with Fabregas there. Iniesta has been versatile in many different ways, and its ludicrous to think otherwise. I've seen Iniesta adapted to many different positions and/or strategy. This man was there behind players like Dinho/Messi, he was there behind players like Torres/Villa and this Euro he does it without a striker. So, please elaborate on how Iniesta isn't versatile?

    Skillful? This varies on player to player, maybe a opinion base question, but every player is different, Pele/Maradona/Ronaldo (#9)/Dinho/CR/Messi. All pose different skill and ability. Iniesta and Zidane are different skill wise to. There are things that maybe Zidane does, which Iniesta can't, but Iniesta can do things that Zidane can't. Height/strength plays in favour for Zidane, but Iniesta height plays for his.

    As I said I've seen Iniesta score two winners in the SF of CL for Barceloan to get to the final including assisting 2 of the 3 winning goals in those final. He also scored the WC winner and played his part in Euro 08/WC10/Euro 12. Iniesta right now isn't just apart of the best club right now (perhaps the best to ever play), but also best national side (also perhaps the best).

    As I said Iniesta is close to Zidane, and to many he is already passed him. I say give him 2-4 years, or at least by retirement he will have passed Zidane. If Iniesta retires right now the line you used is what everyone else will use in the future, "There is no player like Iniesta who was that versatile and skillful on the pitch."


    Escorps Zidane response

    Quote Originally Posted by Escorpiius View Post
    Iniesta may win all the titles he can but he'll never surpass Zidane skill-wise.

    In fact, there's absolutely no playmaker right now with the ability to surpass Zidane.

    Side Note: Iniesta is humble and talented but I'd like to see him as Barca's captain someday where he can show leadership skills.
    Many analyst/articles/reporters have already put Iniesta past Zidane.

    My response to Hawker regrading skills

    Skillful? This varies on player to player, maybe a opinion base question, but every player is different, Pele/Maradona/Ronaldo (#9)/Dinho/CR/Messi. All pose different skill and ability. Iniesta and Zidane are different skill wise to. There are things that maybe Zidane does, which Iniesta can't, but Iniesta can do things that Zidane can't. Height/strength plays in favour for Zidane, but Iniesta height plays for his.
    Iniesta has shared the stage with players like Messi, Dinho, Ronaldo, Xavi, Pirlo, Villa, Rooney, and etc. He has been the man of the matches among those players. If it wasn't for players like Messi/Ronaldo to blossom themselves this era Iniesta/Xavi would have been doing that, even Zidane would have been 3rd to Messi/Ronaldo.

    I've been following Ineista since his Barca B days and him having a bad game is about as often as England wins a major trophy I rarely see it. Iniesta in the Euro had no goals, and one assist, which should be credited to Fabregas mostly, but yet won Man of the Tournment His domanice is showing.

    As I said before Iniesta has already been said to have surpassed Zidane by many, but in 2-4 years from now seeing Iniesta growth, he'll be the best AM (attacking midfield) this world has seen.

    No playmaker better than Zidane? Xavi/Iniesta? Are they benchwormers, or am I missing something?

    Xavi/Iniesta were there behind players like Dinho/Messi, they were there behind players like Torres/Villa and this Euro they did it without a striker.

    Iniesta/Xavi are on level, or beyond Zidane when it comes to play making the Spain/Barcelona success speaks for itself.

    You can say right now Iniesta won't pass Zidane, but in the future people will say ??? will not pass Iniesta. Iniesta will be the ideal midfielders by the time he retires. This guy has shown too much spirit, for the youth especially the ones who lack in height/strength. Ineista is the best attacking midfield today and perhaps the best ever when he retires.

    As far as leadership goes, with Spain i can see Iker staying till 38-40 and than theres Xavi. Barcelona Puyol about 1-2 years for him left, than Xavi who could go for another 2-4 years depending on injury, also Valdes is older so he could get it to. Iniesta will be a great leader if given the chance.



    Escorps response to video replay

    Quote Originally Posted by Escorpiius View Post
    Both UEFA and FIFA have made d!ckheaded decisions since some years now. Both Platini and Blatter sucks. But still, I just got a little more respect for Blatter after this - just because he shows that he still got common-sense.

    I don't care if video replay introduction is used extensively or completely but whatsoever, it's far from high time to allow it.

    My personal opinion is that we do like in Grand Slam Tennis matches. That is, each team get a limited tokens of the number of time they can use it (let's say 10 for example). In that way, they'll need to choose carefully their 10 ways to use video replaying help when necessary. Also, they won't be able to abuse it and they'll need to leave a certain amount of trust to referees decisions also. Also, the argument that it will slow the momentum of the football match will fade out since it won't be used extensively.

    Anyways, that's my opinion that it could be introduced like that. But point is, that it should be introduced. I know, like me, ReLax, you're for it. I'd like to know in which way you'd like to see it introduced; by considering pros and cons of video replaying. I don't know why but I'm getting tickled that we might see something great in 2 years in Brazil. Fingers crossed.
    You already know my pros on this as we had a long discussion regrading this last summer. I'll state some cons they probably are dealing with, and/or trying to avoid. I will also show some on how it may reflect on the fans etc the best I can.

    Look at Madrid/Brasil/Ajax/Bayern/Liverpool/Milan/United/Barcelona/Spain, you think there dominance came thru clean games, without bad calls/dives/play acts? but can we say that they didn't deserve the success?

    the thing is FIFA/UEFA won't take this seriously yet due to the sheer factor all these people complain (including myself). We see offensive (tika-taka football), people call it boring/lame, we see Madrid/Bayern play they call it too aggressive, defensive base football park the bus/negative tactics. The truth is 75-80% of football fans are just bitter, if there club loses they want to look for an excuse, they play boring, they play aggressive, they play negatively, they dive/play act, we were tired, and etc. Many people liked Chelsea defensive approach, but when Spain played defence VS France people accused them of negative football and called it boring yet called Chelsea heroic. Greece did the same VS Germany the same people who commentated the Chelsea games, were praising Chelsea, but be little Greece trying the same tactic.

    This is the thing your team wins thru a bad call everyones jumping and dancing the second they lose to a certain call we demand video replay to be added. If they do add it will be insane and still won't solve much. It'll first slow down games, giving players like Messi/Ronaldo/Iniesta/Xavi breaks. In NBA/NHL it takes about 3-5 mins to come up with a result and/or decision if each side gets 10 and they use it all that'd be an extra 30 mins to the game, and if refs can make certain calls like give a free kick which leads to a goal will still complain. I'd say give 3 and the most 5, but even thats pushing it, but fans will still moan we won't more and etc.

    Others minor ones are.

    - Some refs/staff may lose their jobs, a strike may happen once introduced
    - May make refs get a little lazy
    - More money being spent by FIFA/UEFA
    - Fans/players/coaches will still complain

    Even in football refs/video replay not supporting the certain calls players/coaches/fans are complaining about they'll still complain. Navas goal VS Croatia were ppl still believe its offside

    I'm sure Platini is not the only one who makes decisions there, its an entire FIFA/UEFA office board, so a lot of people probably aren't on board with this yet. There still will be some fans/players/coaches who may complain about this if it happens.


    The All-star game (football)

    Your post made me start thinking that it would have been easier if there were some kind of All-Stars league (like in NBA) once the season is over (in the years when there's no Euro/WC). Whatch'a say?
    We can still do that now. I mean every other year after Euro/WC. Its like Euro, All Star, WC, Euro, All Star, WC, etc, and/or Euro, All star, WC, All Star, Euro, All Star, WC, etc. I don't think Euro/WC will ever be gone, unless football itself is completely done.

    Theres so many ways this can happen I was watching the charity game, with Messi, Drogba, D. Milito VS Suarez, Cavani, Falcao. It was fun they all played for fun and laughed on the pitch with one another.

    The all star game can be determined in many different ways. NHL they pick a captain for both sides and have them go thru a selection among which ever player is available and there. They choose their entire squad from scratch, or they can do what NBA does and choose among the best performers that year and split them up into two different teams. FIFA can make it even better. I mean have the big leagues like Spain/Italy/Germany/England choose the best performers from their league and face off.

    Spain would have like Messi/Ronaldo/Xavi/Iniesta/Casillas etc Italy Buffon/Ibra/Pirlo/De Rossi/Maicon/Cassono etc

    I'd personal just have two and chose the best performers of that year and/or at least whoever is available. We'd see dream midfielder like Iniesta/Xavi/Pirlo/Fabregas/De Rossi/Silva/Lampard/Gerrard, strikers like Messi/Neymar/Ronaldo/Villa/Rooney/RVP/Augero, defenders like Puyol/Vidic/Kompany/Pique/Hummels/Pepe, RB/LB like Ramos/Alba/Bale/Alves/Maicon/Cole, GK like Casillas/Buffon/Reina/De Gea/Hart/Neuer, coaches like Pep/Cyruff/SAF/Wenger/Mou/Mancini. Some would be on the same team or opposite and many would get a good experience and learn from these games.

    This is the way I'd have the starting line up from this years performance

    Team A

    Strikers: Messi/RVP/Silva
    Midfield: Iniesta/Hazard/Pirlo
    LB/RB: Ramos/Alba
    Defence: Hummels/Kompany
    GK: Casillas

    Team B

    Strikers: Ronaldo/Rooney/Augero
    Midfield: Xavi/Modric/Ozil
    LB/RB: Bale/Alves
    Defenders: Pepe/Puyol
    GK: Buffon

     
         

  2. #342
    Senior Member Hawker's Avatar
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    Re: General Football Debates!

    @Relax

    you're just overhyping Iniesta too much..I haven't heard anyone putting Iniesta and Zidane on the same line or even past him wtf...closest what I've heard is that someone asked Zidane that does he think Iniesta resembles him as a player..

    I meant with versatile that Zidane just brings so much of his own different dimensions into the game. It's not just that he can play anywhere in the midfield or mid striker but that he's creative and does things Iniesta sure as hell can't. Passing a ball from a corner kick with his heal as zip like pass into the middle of the box is just an example something Iniesta isn't capable of even trying. You see many of those kind of examples in that video I posted.

    "Iniesta/Xavi are on level, or beyond Zidane when it comes to play making " yeah right..give me a f*cking break. It's ludacris to say they are beyond his level! Third time winner for FIFA's Player of the Year award is not someone to be taken lightly. Xavi and Iniesta are great players but they are not legends like Zidane. And no you can't say that "yeah in two years he will surpass someone". It's not like that in football. People just don't develop that drastically. Iniesta is in his best age right now and that's how skillfull he is gonna be. Have you even played football yourself? We can see Iniesta's talent level right now and his potential, and it's not something that will surpass a legend like Zidane. That just doesn't happen in football.
    Pele for example was throughout his whole career as good as he was in his 18's or 19's.

    So I agree with Escorp that there's no player currently playing that would surpass Zidane skillwise.
     
         
    Last edited by Hawker; 07-11-2012 at 03:51 AM.

  3. #343
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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawker View Post
    @Relax

    you're just overhyping Iniesta too much..I haven't heard anyone putting Iniesta and Zidane on the same line or even past him wtf...closest what I've heard is that someone asked Zidane that does he think Iniesta resembles him as a player..
    And you overestimate Zidane...

    Well obviously you don't follow football news as much, go to google news, and do your research.

    And no one asked Zidane as far as I've read the article. All he said was how dangerous Iniesta is in the Euros warned France and than told the reporters himself how impressed he is of Iniesta.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawker View Post
    I meant with versatile that Zidane just brings so much of his own different dimensions into the game. It's not just that he can play anywhere in the midfield or mid striker but that he's creative and does things Iniesta sure as hell can't. Passing a ball from a corner kick with his heal as zip like pass into the middle of the box is just an example something Iniesta isn't capable of even trying. You see many of those kind of examples in that video I posted.
    Elaborate? What are these so called things? Skills? I've said to you before skills differ, I've seen Iniesta do things which I've never witness Zidane do. This can easily go either way



    By watching this youtube video I haven't seen anyone as versatile and skillful

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawker View Post
    "Iniesta/Xavi are on level, or beyond Zidane when it comes to play making " yeah right..give me a f*cking break. It's ludacris to say they are beyond his level! Third time winner for FIFA's Player of the Year award is not someone to be taken lightly. Xavi and Iniesta are great players but they are not legends like Zidane. And no you can't say that "yeah in two years he will surpass someone". It's not like that in football. People just don't develop that drastically. Iniesta is in his best age right now and that's how skillfull he is gonna be. Have you even played football yourself?We can see Iniesta's talent level right now and his potential, and it's not something that will surpass a legend like Zidane. That just doesn't happen in football.
    Pele for example was throughout his whole career as good as he was in his 18's or 19's.

    So I agree with Escorp that there's no player currently playing that would surpass Zidane skillwise.
    They shouldn't, but as I said if Zidane played in this era with Messi/Ronaldo he would have been among Iniesta/Xavi finishing behind Messi/Ronaldo.

    They are legends.

    Yes, I do play football during the summer for a travel league

    Well, Xavi/Casillas/Puyol (Euro-WC-Euro, Xavi/Puyol CL runs) all are at age of 30 played some of their best games including Zidane (2006 WC) also Van Der Sar/Buffon/Pirlo at the age of 30 it really only effects strikers the most in my knowledge of things for others depends on injury and/or loss of interest in the football itself

    Yes, it can. And in football anything can happen.

    And your point on Pele? Are you saying Zidane was as good as he was around 20's to 30's?

    At the end its yours and his opinion. I can't argue against opinions.
     
         
    Last edited by ReLax -; 07-11-2012 at 05:26 AM.

  4. #344
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    Re: General Football Debates!

    @Relax-

    Are you serious about that video? I watched the whole thing and there was nothing impressive there. Just rebound goals and breakthrough passes. Yeah like we haven't seen those before. There was literally nothing there that I haven't seen Zidane doing. Only thing that was slightly impressive was that zip @ 7:13 into the box from the endborderline.
    The video got me bored. And I'm not being biased, 'cause I can see he's fast and has a good ballcontrol but no one can seriously say he's near Zidane's level lol...So no it can't go either way, 'cause it's a fact that Zidane just has more skill.

    And no by watching this video you haven't seen anyone as versatile and skillful:




    And yes Zidane was awesome in his 20's. He won the world's best player award at the age of 25 and almost ten years later the best player award of the World Cup.

    Ooh yeah right, in the era with Messi, Ronaldo, Iniesta..lol yeah he just happened to play in the era with Figo, Beckham, Ronaldo#9, Raul and Owen and still he impressed people and stood out.

    So if you want to hype Iniesta, then atleast link a better vid of him 'cause I can honestly say nothing in that video was near Zidane's level. Maybe near Totti, Figo or Nedved but not Zidane.
     
         
    Last edited by Hawker; 07-11-2012 at 05:05 PM.

  5. #345
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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Nor was I impressed by your Zidane video. What I saw Zidane do I see multiple people do including Iniesta

    Nothing impressive? Rebound goals? Breakthru passes? Do you know the definition of vision, positioning, and pace in football? I hardly doubt it reading your response here.

    Zidane was impressive in his late 20 aka 25. Iniesta was shining around the age of 22-23 he scored the winner VS Milan CL semi-final and since that day he got only better Zidane doesn't have more skills dribble wise yes, but that doesn't mean anything Dinho has a lot of skills and has done unbelieveable things compared to Messi/Ronaldo, but yet he is behind them

    Therefore, yes it can still go either way.

    Beckhma? Owen? Really? Really? Are you putting those two in the same sentence with the likes of Messi, CR, Ronaldo (9), and Zidane?

    Iniesta has shared the stage with players like Messi, CR, Dinho, Xavi, Pirlo, Henry, Villa, Rooney, and etc where he still shined and stood out. As I said in this era Zidane wouldn't have won with Messi/Ronaldo I'm sure Escorps would agree if you read his view on ballon in this era

    I don't need to hype Iniesta I and many know what he is capable of a 10 min video doesn't sum up the 1000s of hours played in football. Iniesta will exceed Zidane once he hangs up his boots.
     
         

  6. #346
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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Quote Originally Posted by ReLax - View Post
    Iniesta will exceed Zidane once he hangs up his boots.
    That's just dumb speculation. Fact is that Zidane is better than the current Iniesta and that's it.
    That video definitely didn't lead me to believe that he would develope onto Zidane's level.
     
         

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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawker View Post
    That's just dumb speculation. Fact is that Zidane is better than the current Iniesta and that's it.
    That video definitely didn't lead me to believe that he would develope onto Zidane's level.
    And Zidane has already compared the current Iniesta to himself. I'll take his word over yours. Iniesta will surpass Zidane
     
         

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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Quote Originally Posted by ReLax - View Post
    And Zidane has already compared the current Iniesta to himself. I'll take his word over yours. Iniesta will surpass Zidane
    Yeah he said his playing style resembles Zizou but that has got nothing to do with who's better than the other. But believe what you want!
     
         

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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawker View Post
    Yeah he said his playing style resembles Zizou but that has got nothing to do with who's better than the other. But believe what you want!
    *Sigh*

    :ice:No hard feelings at the end as I said opinion differs, I will believe what I want you believe what you want.
     
         

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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Quote Originally Posted by ReLax - View Post
    *Sigh*

    :ice:No hard feelings at the end as I said opinion differs, I will believe what I want you believe what you want.
    btw, just out of curiosity, have you witnessed Zidane playing? like when were you born? ..'cause that's one factor itself, that if you have witnessed the era when Zidane and the others dominated. I'm not trying to f*ck with you, I'm just asking. 'Cause to me it seems all today's youngsters worship Messi and they don't know any of those that were before him.

    'Cause this is just my opnion but I think those who were born in 70's formed the golden generation of footballers. Many of that gen broke many old records.
    Like Raul becoming the best scorer for Spanish national team and for the UEFA Champions league and Ronaldo the best scorer of World Cup tournaments.
    Owen is the best scorer for English team in the last two decades. Will Rooney even surpass him?
    Figo was chosen to be the best Portuguese footballer six times in a row.
    Kluivert is the leading goalscorer for Holland's national team and he hasn't been playing for the team in 8 years.
    Most FIFA World Player of the Year awards: Ronaldo#9 and Zidane both 3.

    So all you youngsters reading this, respect the golden generation not f*cking crybaby C.Ronaldo's etc
     
         

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    Re: General Football Debates!

    messi have nothing against Zidane and the great Ronaldo(BRA), how i miss the good old days
     
         

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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Quote Originally Posted by Totsuka No Tsurugi View Post
    messi have nothing against Zidane and the great Ronaldo(BRA), how i miss the good old days
    Right on!


    EDIT: oh yeah I forgot to mention in my above post that Raul is also Real Madrid's all time top scorer. So everyone can f*ck of with the Messi's, Rooney's and C.Ronaldo's. There's a real striker right there.
     
         
    Last edited by Hawker; 07-12-2012 at 05:39 PM.

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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawker View Post
    btw, just out of curiosity, have you witnessed Zidane playing? like when were you born? ..'cause that's one factor itself, that if you have witnessed the era when Zidane and the others dominated. I'm not trying to f*ck with you, I'm just asking. 'Cause to me it seems all today's youngsters worship Messi and they don't know any of those that were before him.
    Yes, I have witnessed him play, so I speak from knowledge rather than anything else. I was around 8-9 when I first saw him in WC98 and my father his friends were big fan of him. I started my interest in football when I watch a documentary about Cruyff/Netherlands/Barcelona (dream team 90's). This is when I fall in love with Barcelona. As I grew and started playing football I didn't know what position I wanted to play out of Midfield/striker, so my coach/friends use to tell me watch videos online, I watched the likes of Puskás, Pele, Seeler, Cruyff, Mueller, Maradona, and etc the list goes on one of my personal favs who gets the least amount of credit is Eusébio he played for Benfica and Portugal I'm not a big fan of most Portugese, but he was an amazing player 571 apps and 585 goals. He was capped only 60 times and had 41 goals for Portugal unbelievable ratio with games/goal.

    You do know that is more of a hypocritical statement right? Pele/Muller/Cruyff/Maradona days youngsters worshiped them. Ronaldo/Ramario/Zidane/Dinho youngsters worshiped them, and today Messi/Ronaldo/etc youngster worship them. Its a trend back in Zidane/Ronaldo days people were comparing them to the likes of Pele/Cryuff/Maradona and the people who thought Pele/Muller/Cryuff days were the golden era were saying the exact same thing about Zidane/Ronaldo that you are about Messi/Ronaldo. Today the samething people say about Messi/Ronaldo.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hawker View Post
    'Cause this is just my opnion but I think those who were born in 70's formed the golden generation of footballers. Many of that gen broke many old records.
    Like Raul becoming the best scorer for Spanish national team and for the UEFA Champions league and Ronaldo the best scorer of World Cup tournaments.
    Owen is the best scorer for English team in the last two decades. Will Rooney even surpass him?
    Figo was chosen to be the best Portuguese footballer six times in a row.
    Kluivert is the leading goalscorer for Holland's national team and he hasn't been playing for the team in 8 years.
    Most FIFA World Player of the Year awards: Ronaldo#9 and Zidane both 3.
    As I said era differ, your not giving the benefit of the doubt to today's players, just as some didn't give it too Roanldo/Ramorio/Zidane era. Your just too stuck up on the era that has already past just as did Pele/Maradona. I don't forget what those people have done, but I give today's players chance and faith to match some of the past legends.

    Messi this season has broken so many records at the age of 24 only. Most goals scored by Pele (66) and Muller (67), Messi scored 73 this season. Muller interview on Messi breaking his record (click) Raul had most CL goals scored in a single CL run, which was 12, this season Gomez scored 13 and Messi scored 14. Messi has also been the top CL scorer for 4 straight season, including scoring the most goals in a single CL game 5 (these 5 I don't think came from a single FK/PK) this season. He has scored the most hattricks in La Liga, including the most goals scored in a single season (la liga) passing Alfred and CR7. Ronaldo (#9) hasn't had a season were he reached 50 goals (I think the most was 47 when he played with Barcelona), and Messi has done it 4 season straight. Zindane/Ronaldo won 3 ballon, so has Messi, but he's one them 3 in a row and has a chance at making it 4 and adding to his record. By the time Messi retires he may possibly have 5-6 ballon d'or. CL raul is still top scorer, but in 16-17 season, Messi again in 6-7 season is 3rd top scorer and the rate he's going I wouldn't doubt him holding the most goals scored in CL. Especially since he's averaging 10 goals every CL season for the past 4 years.

    Raul had scored 44 goals with Spain, Villa has scored 51 (possible more to come) including winning Euro/WC and being the top scorer there. Villa holds the fastest hattrick scored 3 mins (don't know of all time, but I'm sure fastest among Spainish players).

    Rooney is only 26 he still has a good 4-6 years left and is only 11 goals off Owen, I'm sure its possible to reach him, or even pass him.

    I'm not undermining these guys here, but you clearly are undermining todays players, I haven't even listed what Ronaldo, Xavi, Ineista, etc have accomplished in this era.

    Quote Originally Posted by Totsuka No Tsurugi View Post
    messi have nothing against Zidane and the great Ronaldo(BRA), how i miss the good old days
    To you and Hawker

    Ronaldo (9) thats right he said Messi is the best in the world (click)

    ^read that article Ronaldo the Brazilian one even acknowledges Messi is the best despite being a Madrid supporter and the rivalry between one anothers nations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawker View Post
    Right on!


    EDIT: oh yeah I forgot to mention in my above post that Raul is also Real Madrid's all time top scorer. So everyone can f*ck of with the Messi's, Rooney's and C.Ronaldo's. There's a real striker right there.
    And? Messi is the top scorer for Barcelona already at the age of 24? He'll be only extending the record for others to catch up to in the future.

    TBH Hawker I understand were your coming from, but you literally have no faith in the future. The likes of Ozil/Hazard are both being said to be the next Zidane, Neymar is said to be the next Messi. The era moves on today its Messi/Ronaldo/Xavi/Inesita tomorrow it'll be Augero/Silva/Ozil/Fabregas/Hazard/Neymar and than after them someone else, the trend will go on, but if you yourself don't forget what pleasure these guys have shown to us than why care about others? I know what Pele did, Maradona, Cryuff, etc I know the records will be broken and these guys will be surpassed one day or another, but its not a shameful thing. You prefer Ronaldo (9) better, but yet the article I just posted he says Messi is the best.

    Opinions will be opinions. I guess you just want to be stuck in the past, and believe no one can surpass the elders, but I myself like to move on to the future. I'm happy with Messi, but tomorrow someone surpass him I won't be sitting there like Pele/Maradona/Ronaldo/Zidane fans and saying no, I'll rise my hands up and be grateful to see someone surpassing the others, its a joy to me. Pele/Muller/Cryuff were the 70s, Maradona/etc was the 80s, Ronaldo/Zidane/etc were the 90s, Messi/Ronaldo/etc are today's, and than they'll be tomorrows gen.
     
         

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    Re: General Football Debates!

    The other response is too long, so I'll make a new one.

    I have been watching Luis Suarez foir the past 4-5 years and this guy is just impressing me. His performance for Uruguay is mind blowing. Finishing 4th at WC10 and making Germany/Netherlands work for their victory, the Copa America victory beating Brasil/Argentina to it. Uruguay just had a game VS Chile and they were down 2-0, but ended up winning 6-4 were Suarez scored a hattrick and got a PK which Cavani took.

    I mean honestly Liverpool need to sign players to support him, or at least get a real frigging danger man not that pathetic Carrol. Suarez is just wasting his time there. I would rather have him move to Juventus, as they seem more promising and Suarez in the squad can make it explosive. AT least they made their first signing, Fabio Borini from Roma.

    The Olympics are coming and to me I have a feeling Uruguay may take it, it would be huge for them as they won Copa last year and perhaps gold medal this year, but they will probably finish among the top 3 for sure (I hope).

    Its good to see this from Uruguay they were the first nation to hold the WC in 1930. A very promising side.
     
         
    Last edited by ReLax -; 07-12-2012 at 09:40 PM.

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    Re: General Football Debates!

    @Relax-

    Well your reasoning and logic about me is a bit flawed. As I think Pele is yes greater than Zidane, Ronaldo9 etc..but I also think Zidane is greater than Maradona...Cryuff is better than Ronaldo, but imo Ronaldo is better than most known scorers during 70's and 80's. So I do believe that new talents can surpass elders.

    But you're partly right, I'm bit of an age racist lol, and I tend to get stuck on the past. But it's not all about stubborness 'cause I have my reasons as well. I just honestly think Zidane is better than Iniesta and that Iniesta isn't near his level.

    I never denied Messi being a great player. I admit he's the best player today. But Ronaldo saying he's the best of current players doesn't actually tell anyone that he'd actually be better than what Ronaldo was.

    And woah I didn't know Raul has been replaced as the top scorer by Villa. Well he still holds two top 1 positions in goal scoring.

    Btw I'm not undermining today's players, but I honestly think that in some way the level of today's football's entertainment and players skills has gone down. I didn't enjoy this summers EURO as much as I did enjoy competitions ten years ago. Maybe it's just me though, I dunno.
     
         

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    Re: General Football Debates!

    @Hawker

    I prefer Maradona over all TBH. Pele, Ronaldo,and Zidane had fantastic teams national and club wise, were as Maradona single handily took Napoli to the top and an average Argentina side to the WC final twice including winning one. In his time at Napoli he elevated the team to the most successful era in its history. Napoli won their only Serie A Italian Championships in 1986/87 and 1989/1990, placing second in the league twice, in 1987/88 and 1988/89. Also in that era at Napoli he won the Coppa Italia in 1987, second place in the Coppa Italia in 1989, the UEFA Cup in 1989 and the Italian Supercup in 1990. Maradona was the top scorer in Serie A in 1987/88. His second goal VS England in 86 WC was voted the best goal in WC history and in 2002 they named it the goal of the century. This is personally why I hail Maradona as the best of them all.

    I'm not saying its stubbornness. As I said before not yet, but I can see him getting there, personally my opinion ever since Zidane the most interesting/entertaining midfielder I seen is Iniesta.

    "But there is no doubt that Messi is the best player in the world." Is what Ronaldo said, so he wasn't speaking of just current players.

    Yes, Villa passed him this year, or maybe last year I know he hit the 50 mark this year. As I said Raul has played for 17 years now, when others reach that they may have as much or more. Raul played 102 games for Spain scoring 44, while Villa played 82 scoring 51.

    Blame that on the media, critics, and us fans. I still like the entertainment from players, but the competition has become the major disappointment.

    Me and Escorps spoke about this a little we first spoke about WC10 when Netherlands played Brasil with such defensive approach, people praised them media, fans etc, but when they put a boring performance VS Spain in the final and lost with that tactic people criticized them for it. The same with Germany this Euro as Escorp was telling me people asked Leow why he didn't play Klose instead of Gomez, but Gomez was third top scorer in Europe this season and top scorer in the Euro, if he played Klose and the result were the same than the media would have asked why he didn't play Gomez

    Chelsea CL run they played so defensively and made their semi and final so boring to watch. It stop such offensive and talented side like Barcelona/Bayern from actually playing their game. I mean even when Greece played like that VS Germany the same guy who commentated the Chelsea game called it heroism etc, but he criticized/insulted Greece for it. The game were Barcelona thrashed Madrid 5-0 was amazing, Bayern VS Madrid was good to watch, the Barcelona VS Madrid Espana last summer was hot also to watch. These games I like, but sadly today its about only victory doesn't matter how it comes Barcelona/Spain play amazing, but other teams play effects them i.e. parking the bus and makes matches boring.

    I mean look at the Euros Spain won without a #9 or #7. They had no true strikers, but yet the world looks at it they didn't play too good, well obviously they didn't a striker.

    The thing with Barcelona/Spain is they stick to their gameplay win, lose, or draw. I mean even when they lose they seem to have been the better team.

    France hit out at England playing so defensively yet they did the same when playing Spain in the QF.

    I don't have a problem with defence, but you want to play it than go ahead play like the real "Catenaccio" not parking the bus and having 11 people in the PK box, or even not even trying to get the ball.

    Thats the difference today, people would rather play to win than play to entertain and win like it was back in the days, and its all to do with the media, critics and us today compared to than.
     
         

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    Re: General Football Debates!

    @Relax-

    About Maradona, I've always thought that his goal against England from halfway of the field is highly overrated as the defenders did such a lousy job stopping him. If you look at the defenders closely one is jogging nearly for the whole run behind Maradona lol. Imo Owen's goal in '98 WC against Argentina was more awesome.

    I really doubt Ronaldo meant that Messi is the all time best player, 'cause he couldnt've possibly meant he's better than Pele, Maradona, Zidane, Cryuff.
    Otherwise he would've said "all time best player" or "best player ever" instead of "best player in the world". To me the latter means best player of currently playing players. 'Cause you can't call retired men football players anymore 'cause it's not their profession anymore.

    And good analyze on about the game of today in whole. I agree fully, although I'm not into analyzing it that deeply. But it sounds like what I've been witnessing in the last few years. Glad I'm not the only one who thinks likle something has gone wrong.
     
         

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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Quote Originally Posted by ReLax - View Post
    To you and Hawker

    Ronaldo (9) thats right he said Messi is the best in the world (click)

    ^read that article Ronaldo the Brazilian one even acknowledges Messi is the best despite being a Madrid supporter and the rivalry between one anothers nations.
    did he mean the best player ever ? NO, he mean the best player in the world(currently).
     
         

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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Overrated? I don't think so. The defender behind Maradona had it right, but the fact was no one could stop him. The defender behind Maradona kept pressure on him, which was his job and I think that person was a midfielder rather than defender. The other defenders tried, but couldn't stop him because he dribbled the ball beautifully and he took the shot from a wide angle, which they wouldn't have predicted to go in. That goal itself held a lot of merit. Argentina and England had a war which England won (I forgot over what). It led to this suspension SF, and Maradona that goal led to the victory, which led them to the finals were they won WC for the second time, which was 2 out of 3 for them in that era. Owen goal wasn't all that. It holds a lot because it was some what a revenge for them from 86 WC, but either way not like they won anything after it.

    Everyone has an opinion right? Perhaps Ronaldo meant it we don't know. Ronaldo said "Messi is the best in the world." truth be told, nor did he say anything including the past, and/or present players. They can still be called players, because they played the game ie: Pele/Maradona are the two best players in football history. Its always their profession, a man can retire from the game, but never from football itself. Cruyff/Pep both think Messi is the best in history of football. If Ronaldo thinks like that I wouldn't doubt it. From his statement I don't see anything referring to today/current/etc. I don't mean to say that he means he is the best of all time, but nothing like that is referred in his statement.

    Thanks, its just a summary anyways, but its just the truth, I guess people are more intimidated by Spain/Barcelona style now and never play their actually game when facing them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Totsuka No Tsurugi View Post
    did he mean the best player ever ? NO, he mean the best player in the world(currently).
    And where did you read that he said currently? Oh yeah you made that up, he said, "Messi is the best in the world." Nothing regrading today/current was mentioned in there.
     
         
    Last edited by ReLax -; 07-13-2012 at 07:43 PM.

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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Quote Originally Posted by ReLax - View Post
    And where did you read that he said currently? Oh yeah you made that up, he said, "Messi is the best in the world." Nothing regrading today/current was mentioned in there.
    and nothing was mentioned that he is the best player ever, "messi is the best in the world" you don't seriously think that Messi>All Footballer that ever exist in the world.
     
         

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