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  1. #526
    Senior Member Uchiha seeker's Avatar
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    Re: General Football Debates!

    AH Chelsea did not qualify for knock out rounds! atleast they won 6,1
     
         

  2. #527
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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Bayern 4-1 Bate

    Cool game from Bayern! They were dominating the game all the time. Finally, Gomez was on the field, scoring the first goal. Then, Muller, Shaqiri and Alaba scored the last 3 goals for Bayern. In the last minutes of the game, BATE scored their first and last goal by Filipenko. BATE had no chances winning the game this time, even if they won at home (3-1). The red card of Boateng (Bayern) can become a real problem for Bayern, for the next Round cause Badstuber and Boateng will miss the first match. More info...
    ---------------------------


    Also, good job from Dortmund. They are the only team that hasn't lost any game on the group stage. They won against R.Madrid, Man.City and Ajax and reached the 1st place of the group. (The same with Schalke, they also reached the 1st place on their group)
    Good job from these 3 German clubs.

    I also got surprised from Celltic that won against Barcelona (2-1) and really tried to reach the 2nd place and go to the next Round. Also, happy that Chelsea lost on the group stage.
    I bet, Barcelona and Real Madrid will not win this time! Barcelona are having a bad defence. Messi is saving them from losing matches. Real Madrid can't win this time. They got beaten by Dortmund and almost got beaten twice. Last session they also got beaten by Bayern. And their La-Liga situation isn't going really well...This time a german club will win the Champions Leage!
     
         
    Last edited by -God of War-; 12-06-2012 at 01:19 PM.

  3. #528
    The White Demon Totsuka No Tsurugi's Avatar
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    Re: General Football Debates!

    no shit sherlock...... am Madrid fan but truth be told Barcelona is in their best form, i don't see them losing to anyone but Madrid in open play.......... this break through from Germany team is just like their national team, owning everyone in group stage then get pummeled in the quarter/semi final
     
         

  4. #529
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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Quote Originally Posted by Totsuka No Tsurugi View Post
    no shit sherlock...... am Madrid fan but truth be told Barcelona is in their best form, i don't see them losing to anyone but Madrid in open play.......... this break through from Germany team is just like their national team, owning everyone in group stage then get pummeled in the quarter/semi final
    I doubt that you predicted Celtic's victory over Barcelona; so I find it presumptuous to say that no one, besides Madrid, can beat Barca in open play.

    If I were to make an analysis of CL thus far, I'd say Barcelona, Dortmund and Bayern are equal favorites to lift the trophy. Bayern have a terrifying squad and are squashing the Bundesliga. Same for Barcelona with a rampant Messi. And Dortmund has been the most impressive team on the field with their teamplay right now in whole CL (yes, better than Barcelona for now due to much solid defence).

    I'd bracket Madrid, United & Juventus as first-rate challengers to the above trio and to possibly clinch it. Madrid are still have the quest for La Decima as booster in this CL and as in this last 3 years, they do still possess the necessary squad to grab it. They do need to hit the right form physically and mentally (perhaps). United have weak spots; especially defensively but their never-say-die attitude and their will for revenge after last year's setback will delete their complacency in them and turn them (hopefully) into strong challengers. Juventus have been highly impressive to end up first after Norsjaelland shock result. They have shown interesting attitude and play for their return and I think, they'll be dangerous as the campaign will progress.

    Milan, Arsenal & Porto have enormous CL culture and experience. Not sure if that can result in grabbing the trophy in May but it do state that we should always count on these teams.

    Shakhtar, Valencia and Malaga are tricky opponents; with a definite style & squad; and can prove to be surprise packages.

    Shalke and Paris have their chances due to finishing first in their groups but both need some polishing yet for CL stages.

    I don't want to offend Celtic or Galatasaray fans but they look like the fillers right now. Both have fiery stadium support though, so any Pot 1 team can have a tricky hellish trip for the 1st Leg.

    The draw for Last 16 K.O matches will be interesting and obviously, lots will depend on that.
     
         

  5. #530
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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Does anyone know when the Draw is for Champions leage knockouts stages?. Please tell me .
    Plus Real madrid are through yaay! . But Borussia is playing well.
    I think Madrid will win Champions leauge . They have little hope in La liga but i still think they can win La Liga . But their main focus is Champions leage ( Modrich , Cassials, Mou said) . And chealsea are out Hahaha . Torres scored twice . LOL. Last years champions leauge final was deserved to Munich ( Coming from A madrid fan) . Chealsea won by luck . But still. they are out!

    So can anyone tell me the Knockout stages Draw ?Please.? Thanks T_T
     
         

  6. #531
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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Quote Originally Posted by Totsuka No Tsurugi View Post
    no shit sherlock...... am Madrid fan but truth be told Barcelona is in their best form, i don't see them losing to anyone but Madrid in open play.......... this break through from Germany team is just like their national team, owning everyone in group stage then get pummeled in the quarter/semi final
    What? As you can see, Bayern is a german club, that's why they have a lot of german players. Just like Barcelona, a spanish club, with a lot of spanish players. That looks normal to me. But Bayern have players from other countries too.

    Bayern are one of the best teams. I think they are better that Real Madrid now. They also won against them in the CL Semi-finals. I think...the only problem why Bayern lost two times in the CL finals (2010 & 2012) is because they had no ''good substitutes''. They only had Olic, Tymo, Gustavo, Van Buyten, Alaba as substitutes. Maby there are other reasons too...but as you can see this session, Bayern are almost completed. They have Pizarro, Shaqiri, Martinez, Dante, Mandzukic. Bayern have a really better team now. I think...Bayern are ready to face every strong opponent, Barcelona too. I really like to see Bayern against Barcelona or against Dortmund in the final.
    Not saying this because I'm a bayern fan, but Bayern are a better team than Madrid now.

    I can't wait to see, which team will be against Bayern and Dortmund!
     
         

  7. #532
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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Quote Originally Posted by IzunaUchiha2 View Post
    So can anyone tell me the Knockout stages Draw ?Please.? Thanks T_T
    Thursday 20th December.



    In case I'm not busy (which I can't guarantee since it's near Xmas sales times), then I'll do a Live coverage of the draw on Narutobase; like how I did for the Group Stages draw (http://www.narutobase.net/forums/sho...d.php?t=236061). So no worries, if you don't have live telecast of the draw, you can follow it here on Nb hopefully or on any football site (as you wish for).
     
         

  8. #533
    The White Demon Totsuka No Tsurugi's Avatar
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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Quote Originally Posted by -God of War- View Post
    What? As you can see, Bayern is a german club, that's why they have a lot of german players. Just like Barcelona, a spanish club, with a lot of spanish players. That looks normal to me. But Bayern have players from other countries too.
    that's not my point *duh* i could care less if the have players from other country, in the end of the day they are German club, and most likely will suffer the same fate with their national team

    Quote Originally Posted by -God of War- View Post
    Bayern are one of the best teams. I think they are better that Real Madrid now. They also won against them in the CL Semi-finals. I think...the only problem why Bayern lost two times in the CL finals (2010 & 2012) is because they had no ''good substitutes''. They only had Olic, Tymo, Gustavo, Van Buyten, Alaba as substitutes. Maby there are other reasons too...but as you can see this session, Bayern are almost completed. They have Pizarro, Shaqiri, Martinez, Dante, Mandzukic. Bayern have a really better team now. I think...Bayern are ready to face every strong opponent, Barcelona too. I really like to see Bayern against Barcelona or against Dortmund in the final.
    Not saying this because I'm a bayern fan, but Bayern are a better team than Madrid now.
    dude Madrid played in the group of the death.... while bayern played in noob group, only Valencia can be considered good, but they barely beat them, they even lost to unknown FC in the group stage,

    and this is where your fanboyism getting out of hand, you think bayern lost the final cause they don't have good substitution ? they have better team compared to Inter Milan in 2010 yet Inter shit on them, And recently Chelsea played without their 2 main defender in the final and bayern Arrogance cost them the cup, i mean they sub Mueller for Van buyten ? LOL and they also halted schweinsteiger growth, that player have what it takes to compete with the likes of Pirlo,Xavi and Iniesta but Bayer don't want to let him go while they realized their team don't play in competitive league, looking by bayern dominance in the bundesliga and just sometimes yeah sometimes team like Wolfsburg,Bremen And Dortmund manage to take their throne, the next victim is Mueller and Shaqiri or perhaps the overpriced Martinez

    Quote Originally Posted by -God of War- View Post
    I can't wait to see, which team will be against Bayern and Dortmund!
    they are lucky that Juventus finished 1st in the group stage if its not, the Pirlo and Friends will teach them about the horror of Italy once again .....

    Quote Originally Posted by Escorpiius View Post
    I doubt that you predicted Celtic's victory over Barcelona; so I find it presumptuous to say that no one, besides Madrid, can beat Barca in open play.
    i said in open play... not park the bus.
     
         
    Last edited by Totsuka No Tsurugi; 12-07-2012 at 07:53 AM.

  9. #534
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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Quote Originally Posted by Totsuka No Tsurugi View Post
    dude Madrid played in the group of the death.... while bayern played in noob group, only Valencia can be considered good, but they barely beat them, they even lost to unknown FC in the group stage,

    and this is where your fanboyism getting out of hand, you think bayern lost the final cause they don't have good substitution ? they have better team compared to Inter Milan in 2010 yet Inter shit on them, And recently Chelsea played without their 2 main defender in the final and bayern Arrogance cost them the cup, i mean they sub Mueller for Van buyten ? LOL and they also halted schweinsteiger growth, that player have what it takes to compete with the likes of Pirlo,Xavi and Iniesta but Bayer don't want to let him go while they realized their team don't play in competitive league, looking by bayern dominance in the bundesliga and just sometimes yeah sometimes team like Wolfsburg,Bremen And Dortmund manage to take their throne, the next victim is Mueller and Shaqiri or perhaps the overpriced Martinez
    Madrid played in the group of death...so what? R.Madrid lost against Dortmund, and almost lost twice.

    Yes...Bayern lost 3-1 away, against BATE...but you can see that they won at the second match 4-1.
    Fanboyism out of hand? No, you're wrong. If Bayern lost against ''an unknown club'', what about R.Madrid that lost all those matches at La Liga, with some ''unknown'' clubs?
    Bayern are a better team than R.Madrid now. You should accept it. They even won against them.
    Well, yeah. Bayern really thought they would win against Chelsea easily...and at a game as football, when you have that idea in mind, you will lose.

    If Bayern would/may face Juventus, I bet they win against them and teach a cool lesson to Italians, that germans are better.
     
         

  10. #535
    The White Demon Totsuka No Tsurugi's Avatar
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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Quote Originally Posted by -God of War- View Post
    Madrid played in the group of death...so what? R.Madrid lost against Dortmund, and almost lost twice.
    so they work harder than bayern *duh*, bayern can't even beat Dortmund so what your point ? Madrid played a terrible match at westfalen but in Bernabeu madrid deserve to win despite being behind twice if that ****ing ref didn't cancel Callejon goal for LOL offside,

    Quote Originally Posted by -God of War- View Post
    Yes...Bayern lost 3-1 away, against BATE...but you can see that they won at the second match 4-1.
    Fanboyism out of hand? No, you're wrong. If Bayern lost against ''an unknown club'', what about R.Madrid that lost all those matches at La Liga, with some ''unknown'' clubs?
    Bayern are a better team than R.Madrid now. You should accept it. They even won against them.
    Well, yeah. Bayern really thought they would win against Chelsea easily...and at a game as football, when you have that idea in mind, you will lose.
    BATE what ? LOL so what if they win 4-1 ? that was the last fixture it doesn't really matter for Bate anymore,
    Madrid don't lose against some unknown team, it was sevilla the team that won UEFA cup in 2007 they also have some decent players like Negredo and Rakitic let alone the fact that they are top team in La Liga,

    Getafe Beat real and Getafe is not some unknown team looking at they are Real Madrid rival in the same City 2nd to A.Madrid,

    Real betis is also not an unknown team, there are times when they break the transfer record by landing Denilson in early 2000,

    so all the team that beat Madrid is not UNKNOWN team LIKE Bate ? LOL,

    by the way why you no mention Inter ? oh yeah that was total defeat no excuse for that,
    i never said that Madrid is the better team so idk what you're talking about LOL

    Quote Originally Posted by -God of War- View Post
    If Bayern would/may face Juventus, I bet they win against them and teach a cool lesson to Italians, that germans are better.
    apparently the majority of German fans is a bunch of butthurt union, i suppose you still feel bitter about Italy destroying German in the Euro ? and don't forget in 2006 LOL that was total ownage, no matter how you look at it German is afraid of Italy, Italy is the kryptonite for Germany.................
     
         

  11. #536
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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Quote Originally Posted by Totsuka No Tsurugi View Post
    so they work harder than bayern *duh*, bayern can't even beat Dortmund so what your point ? Madrid played a terrible match at westfalen but in Bernabeu madrid deserve to win despite being behind twice if that ****ing ref didn't cancel Callejon goal for LOL offside,



    BATE what ? LOL so what if they win 4-1 ? that was the last fixture it doesn't really matter for Bate anymore,
    Madrid don't lose against some unknown team, it was sevilla the team that won UEFA cup in 2007 they also have some decent players like Negredo and Rakitic let alone the fact that they are top team in La Liga,

    Getafe Beat real and Getafe is not some unknown team looking at they are Real Madrid rival in the same City 2nd to A.Madrid,

    Real betis is also not an unknown team, there are times when they break the transfer record by landing Denilson in early 2000,

    so all the team that beat Madrid is not UNKNOWN team LIKE Bate ? LOL,

    by the way why you no mention Inter ? oh yeah that was total defeat no excuse for that,
    i never said that Madrid is the better team so idk what you're talking about LOL



    apparently the majority of German fans is a bunch of butthurt union, i suppose you still feel bitter about Italy destroying German in the Euro ? and don't forget in 2006 LOL that was total ownage, no matter how you look at it German is afraid of Italy, Italy is the kryptonite for Germany.................

    (Why you type ''LOL'' at these conversations?)

    Who said that those teams are unknown? I just wanted to use your weird nickname ''unknown'' on a team that took part on the group stage, on Ch.L, Bate.

    Those spanish teams, aren't unknown...but winning against a team like Real Madrid? Looks weird to me...

    Bayern can't beat Dortmund? What the f--k is that? Yes, Dortmund won against Bayern...but Bayern won against Dortmund too. If you want to talk about Bayern vs Dortmund, watch the BundesLiga.

    Sure it matters for Bate! Winning both matches against Bayern, would be a part of Ch.L history maby. Bayern took the second time seriously, and won. Bate wanted to win the match...if they would let the victory to Bayern, the result would be bigger than 4-1.

    Yes...Inter did a grat job in 2010. Scoring 2 goals against Bayern. They deserved it...

    As a german fan, I'm not butthurt. I'm just angry from these lost matches against Italy. So being angry, annoyed, doesn't mean being butthurt. I know Germany is a better team than Italy...but their coach isn't the right one.

    Joachim Low leads Germany to the semi-finals and finals and then he starst making mistakes. At EURO 2012, if Germany would play very good, I bet they would win against Italians. But...yeah, they didn't...so they lost. And at the final we saw Italy getting raped by Spain 4-0. So Italy, pretty much had to lose the semi-final. It would be a stronger match if Spain would meet Germany at the final.
    So Italy isn't a good team. And in these last years, I can only see Juventus as the best team of Italy. Milan isn't ''Milan'' anymore and Inter...I don't even see them anymore.
     
         

  12. #537
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    Re: General Football Debates!

    @Totsuka and God of War: There are many bits in many of your posts each that I'd like too reply but this is your discussion between you, two. And I'd prefer to keep it that way without interfering. That being said, try not to go overboard in your Italian/German fanboy-craze and try not to break Global Rules without insulting replies. Keep your discussion as dignified as possible.
     
         

  13. #538
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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Quote Originally Posted by Escorpiius View Post
    @Totsuka and God of War: There are many bits in many of your posts each that I'd like too reply but this is your discussion between you, two. And I'd prefer to keep it that way without interfering. That being said, try not to go overboard in your Italian/German fanboy-craze and try not to break Global Rules without insulting replies. Keep your discussion as dignified as possible.
    Right. Whatever...I feel too lazy to reply, if he replies again so...don't worry about it.
    I would like to see your reply, if you want to post it. No problems to me.
     
         

  14. #539
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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Quote Originally Posted by -God of War- View Post
    (Why you type ''LOL'' at these conversations?)
    Problem ?

    Quote Originally Posted by -God of War- View Post
    Who said that those teams are unknown? I just wanted to use your weird nickname ''unknown'' on a team that took part on the group stage, on Ch.L, Bate.
    nice excuse, there is always some unknown FC in CL group and Bate is one of them and they beat bayern, and usually this UNKNOWN team don't really care about CL, but still they manage to beat Bayern.......

    Quote Originally Posted by -God of War- View Post
    Those spanish teams, aren't unknown...but winning against a team like Real Madrid? Looks weird to me...
    i don't see anything weird that they beat madrid, with 1-0 score or 1 goal difference, its even more weird to lose against UNKNOWN team like you know what wwith 2 goal difference

    Quote Originally Posted by -God of War- View Post
    can't beat Dortmund? What the f--k is that? Yes, Dortmund won against Bayern...but Bayern won against Dortmund too. If you want to talk about Bayern vs Dortmund, watch the BundesLiga.
    last time they played 1-1, and remember the DFB Pokal final ?

    Quote Originally Posted by -God of War- View Post
    Sure it matters for Bate! Winning both matches against Bayern, would be a part of Ch.L history maby. Bayern took the second time seriously, and won. Bate wanted to win the match...if they would let the victory to Bayern, the result would be bigger than 4-1.
    why bother ? they have no chance whatsoever, so the 1st time bayern is not serious OK i'll believe you for that, while they have played almost all their regular players from the get go..............

    Quote Originally Posted by -God of War- View Post
    As a german fan, I'm not butthurt. I'm just angry from these lost matches against Italy. So being angry, annoyed, doesn't mean being butthurt. I know Germany is a better team than Italy...but their coach isn't the right one.

    Joachim Low leads Germany to the semi-finals and finals and then he starst making mistakes. At EURO 2012, if Germany would play very good, I bet they would win against Italians. But...yeah, they didn't...so they lost. And at the final we saw Italy getting raped by Spain 4-0. So Italy, pretty much had to lose the semi-final. It would be a stronger match if Spain would meet Germany at the final.
    So Italy isn't a good team. And in these last years, I can only see Juventus as the best team of Italy. Milan isn't ''Milan'' anymore and Inter...I don't even see them anymore.
    not butthurt ? OK whatever you say, but the irony is you said Bayern is better than Real Madrid cause the last time they played Bayern win, and now you claim Germany is better than Italy while they've been losing against Italy even before you were born,

    the final in euro 2012 is what you called anti climax, when the match just started we can see that there is something wrong with Chiellini, and after Cesc Manage to easily outrun him(which is usually chiellini can clear the ball away) and resulted in Silva goal, he was substituted cause of injury, Italy losing of their best defender early in the match, so spaineasily score the 2nd goal, but there's still hope.... but everything is gone when Motta suddenly get injured and can't continue to play,

    Italy who has already used all their sub quota was forced to play with 10 men against the great SPAIN, even iniesta stated that everything is becoming easy when Motta taken out, that indicated the match before that is never easy for Spain, even when they leading by 2 goal, so yeah you don't play against spain with 10 man especially in FINAL MATCH

    Both team that played in the final is the best team at the tournament, along with Portugal but poorly annihilated by Spain Via Penalty shoot out, so you think Germany deserve to win the semi final ? well look again Italy could have win 4 or 5 goal against Germany if they don't fool around to much and waste clear chance, so saying that Germany deserve to played in the final is wrong cause Italy could have destroyed them,

    so now you blame the coach ? no don't blame the coach Blame this guy

    and

     
         
    Last edited by Totsuka No Tsurugi; 12-08-2012 at 01:35 PM.

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    Re: General Football Debates!

    On the side note Falcao scored 5 goals in one game and also Messi just passed Muller 85 goal mark in a calendar year with still half the game to go and I think 2-3 more fixtures.

    Congrats to him.
     
         

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    Re: General Football Debates!



    "In the midst of blue fumes, the shield provided by the Blue moon (and millions of Arab money too ) will be pierced and will bleed Red!"

    I didn't wrote anything yesterday since I was really too excited after the victory of yesterday. So, it's better to write with a cool head. We won many matches (and even many derbies) during Fergie time but this one felt truly apart. Maybe it's because of City's domination over us last year. Maybe because City was unbeaten at the Etihad. Maybe it's because both teams now contend for the title. Maybe it felt like revenge for how the title slipped out of United's hands on goal difference. Maybe because we won this match even when referee decisions were against us this time.
    Anyhow, I don't know about sweetest victory but with this comeback, the Owen 4-3 decider and Rooney's magical divine bicycle, I think it's a hattrick of epic victorious derbies!

    It's also fair to say that this was United's best performance in this whole season (perhaps, it would have been Chelsea's one if it wasn't dampened by disastrous refereeing but oh well...). And I'm ultra-glad to see the boys rising and upping their game for THE derby!!

    City started the match well and pressed us well into the first 20 minutes - with Balotelli probably squashing a golden chance. But it wasn't the day to proclaim "Why always me...yet again! ". It was the day of Rooney & RVP mainly. In one of the best clinical counters I've witnessed from United since the days of Rooney-Ronaldo-Park, Young did a back-header to RVP who passed it yet again with a chest-pass to Young. Young rushed from center till the box and give a good pass to Rooney whose control and finish can be described in two words - swift and deadly. And since it was deadly, it killed City's foothold on the match. United regained possession, controlled it better and slotted a 2nd courtesy of Rooney...yet again who finished with clinical fashion an action from Valencia/Rafael on right wing. For the man who's topping the Assist chart in EPL, he remains perfect near goal.

    City came back into second half with better intentions while United got disrupted by Evans' injury. But we kept our good mentality and it deserved recognition. RVP cured a right-footer out of a tight angle which was denied by woodwork and Young tapped it in. But it was wrongly ruled-offside as Zabaleta covered Young. What stung more is that City scored 1-minute later. Despite a slew of wonderful saves by De Gea, the ball ended up into Toure who finished it perfectly. What was meant to be 3-0 leading to composed dominating win became a 2-1 synonymous with a nervy and stormy ending. As the winds kept blowing stronger on Manchester, City started their domination in the search of a comeback. Tevez was denied by Ferdinand, Silva's shot was saved onto crossbar by De Gea but on a corner badly thrown away, Zabaleta sent a ground-volley into the net to make it 2-2.

    While most people started reminding of City's title-winning comeback against QPR, United proved that they were, is and will remain comeback kings. On a good action by Welbeck-Rafael, Clichy made a foul and Rooney-RVP started discussing on who will shoot. Honestly, I thought it would be Rooney as it was a hattrick opportunity and it was the same position from the freekick he scored against Arsenal's 8-2 hammering but Wazza is a teamplayer and gave RVP his ticket. A ticket to become officially a United Hero and he grabbed it with all his talent. A magical curled freekick (slightly deflected) but a crucial winner as Manchester is Red Again!

    Oh yeah, in the celebration of the 3-2, Ferdinand got injured by some hooligans fans of City who merged themselves with United stand of fans. From the look of it, he was hit by a shiny piece of silver metal; most likely a coin. Like I read on a site, when will City fans understand that money can't solve all their problems lol And Ferdinand with class said after-the-match: "Maybe my bleeding was an inevitable thing to happen, it was to show and remind them the real color of blood and Manchester."

    Coming on player's performance: De Gea was excellent. Unlucky on first goal as he stopped twice before bowing down. Was much better than most matches in his aerial saves. Stopped Silva's shot with his shoulder.

    Rafael's cross for 2nd goal was superb. His partnership with Valencia is wonderful and they have potential to become our right wing for next 10 years. Evans was 100 time better than the 6-1 showing (where I was highly highly harsh about him). The lad made some great long passes, defended admirably on Balotelli and was unlucky to injure himself. Smalling and Jones did well as subs. Ferdinand was at his best after a long time. Authoritative on Aguero from start to end and became our true leader in defense today. Even his passes was good which is a bit rare. Evra was great. Less often on attack, disposed of Nasri and Zabaleta's threats, couldn't score with his header from Rooney's corner.

    Carrick did his usual stuff admirably. Wonderful work-rate, never left his man-marking on any spotkicks of City, lost few ball, provided good cover on all City's counters. He's not the best holding mid. in the world but I can't deny that he's an crucial player in United's squad. We do need a better midfielder with more physicality and Strootman or Wanyama would be good picks but I admit that I'll be sad if Carrick was benched with a new arrival after all these loyal efforts. Cleverley was excellent. One of United's best on the field. Two of his shots went wide but it's his workrate and dynamic defensive covers that defined his match. He completely man-handled Toure's ability to be dangerous 85% of the time. Cleverley just came back with a calf injury; thereby his amazing workrate was done when he wasn't even at 100% fitness. That's even more commendable. For I, who was used to see a lethargic midfield of United in defensive tasks, this Carrick-Cleverley's performance was amazing.

    Young was great. Unlucky to be denied his goal, provided the perfect assist to Rooney, his will to drop into the box gave Rooney the space to net the second, never hesitated to help Evra on the flank, dived 2-3 times to my dismay but each time, it was to give fresh air to United's defense instead of gaining a cheat goal opportunity. Probably since his best performance since Arsenal's 8-2. Valencia's return was a huge boost. A last minuted addition and unfortunately, he couldn't finish the match but I don't think United would have won without him. His defensive cover with Rafael was excellent, they combine well on second, constantly provided a free solution with his movement, wasted few balls, a complete team-player.

    Rooney!!! I don't know what to say now. Two ideal finish, constantly helping in midfield, defence and even providing a threat in attack. He is United's soul and heartbeat. Rooney is complete world-class and up their with the 10 best players in today's game, nuff said! Anyone who says he's overrated or that he's average, I defy that person to say it as I'd love to prove that person wrong! RVP is new entrant into United's Hero club. I did say that his and Wazza's partnership has room for improvement (http://www.narutobase.net/forums/sho...=1#post9393688) and I maintain that but at this rate, they'll become one of United's best combo ever in some years. RVP's chest-pass on first goal was a beauty, his run-ins on 2nd goal helped Rooney on the second, his control and passes were good, he did his role of target-man magnificently, his wonderful curled shot was unlucky to hit the bar & the freekick-winner was royal stuff. He scored the crucial goals against Liverpool, Chelsea, Arsenal and now City. What more to ask?

    Speaking of which - Rooney: “We ended Arsenal Invincibles' run. We overtook Liverpool's league record of 18. We ended Chelsea’s run & now ended City's unbeaten home run."

    On City's players: Hart was poor. Undignified of his recent form and couldn't make any crucial saves unlike De Gea. Kompany got injured early. K.Toure replaced him and was slow on 2nd goal. Was not up to the level overall and did an intervention that could have been a penalty in better refereeing eyes. Unlike Kompany who dominated Rooney when he played target-man last season, he never stopped RVP. Nastasic was calm and composed. Zabaleta netted the hopeful equalizer but wasn't dangerous on the wings. Clichy was constantly disturbed by Rafael and Valencia and made the stupid foul that led to RVP's freekick.

    Toure had glimpses of genius like when he eliminated both Rooney and Valencia with his power but overall, well-maintained by Cleverley. Initially, the plan was to Rooney to man-mark him but with Cleverley doing so well and Rooney doing some fouls, Rooney was allocated back to free role. Toure did well with his goal but never pierced United's block like last year. Barry did okay, willingly helping the defence. Though mostly in vain, like seen on Rooney's first goal. Silva was excellent in passing. Denied a goal by De Gea's save, with Toure's much more contained unlike usual times, Silva started mostly all offensive moves of City. His defensive cover was okay but rarely successful. Silva's only poor note in this match was his poorly shot-corner kicks. Nasri was well-contained by Evra. His permutations with Silva never worked like it should have and like Silva, his defensive was average.

    Balotelli was poor. Missed his volley in the early-goings, stopped by Evans and in frustration, he injured the latter with a stupid foul. Subbed early in second-half and went straight in backstage tunnel. Aguero dribbled 4 United players (with much luck) and that was perhaps his best solo moment. Well-stopped by Ferdinand who man-marked him and never able to make the through-balls to him into goal concretion. Dzeko didn't became a super-sub. Tevez brought danger with his constant roaming in second-half. However, his frustration attitude was despicable. Made many stupid fouls, insulted the referee, gave an elbow to the Rafael's chest in front of Fergie who went angry after him and could have been sent-off but referee kindly let him go.

    Speaking of attitudes, the constant smoke-bombs/coins/capsules throwing by City's plastic and hooligan fans was horrendous to see. For a country where fans fights decreased immensely since Liverpool's Hillsborough, this was a sad sight. Even more sad, was that these were fans of reigning EPL champs and such attitude was more than deplorable and should be condemned. But I guess, after showing the worst performance from an English club on CL platform, City are hell-bent to ruin EPL's reputation. Anyhow, United grabbed 3 points and are now 6 points ahead.
     
         

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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Could I ask for a better day? Chelsea lose CWC, to only hurting the CL reputation, as well as EPL (The supposedly most competitive league in the world) and proving the fluke/luck that came their way last season. Neither Barcelona/Madrid/Bayern would've lost all that Chelsea has if they'd won the CL. Madrid drop two points We take A. Madrid to school and than Messi 90th goal in calendar year, 34th goal in 25 games this season (including a brace in 8 straight starts). He seems like he'll break the record again this season.



    Feel bad for Falcao, at 5:02 those tears of blood/sweat/determination. I hope Juventus bid for him or even Milan those would be the perfect destination, if he goes to Chelsea, he'll turn out like El Nino. Messi last season and Falcao as well as last and this season have only proven one ting to the world despite how good they are, one man can't win it all and especially without a team.
     
         
    Last edited by ReLax -; 12-17-2012 at 02:27 AM.

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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Quote Originally Posted by ReLax - View Post
    Could I ask for a better day? Chelsea lose CWC, to only hurting the CL reputation, as well as EPL (The supposedly most competitive league in the world) and proving the fluke/luck that came their way last season. Neither Barcelona/Madrid/Bayern would've lost all that Chelsea has if they'd won the CL. Madrid drop two points We take A. Madrid to school and than Messi 90th goal in calendar year, 34th goal in 25 games this season (including a brace in 8 straight starts). He seems like he'll break the record again this season.



    Feel bad for Falcao, at 5:02 those tears of blood/sweat/determination. I hope Juventus bid for him or even Milan those would be the perfect destination, if he goes to Chelsea, he'll turn out like El Nino. Messi last season and Falcao as well as last and this season have only proven one ting to the world despite how good they are, one man can't win it all and especially without a team.
    I knew they were going to lose but besides, the luck they had (which all teams may have anyday in any kind of circumstances), the team who won CL, was a different Chelsea. A Chelsea, based on an ending generation of Drog-Lampard-Terry-Cole-Cech-Malouda-Kalou-Essien. A generation vexed, not to have grab the CL trophy earlier on and gave it their all, as they knew this would have been their last chance to lift up CL. Indeed, Drogba/Essien are now gone. Lampard will difficultly impose himself into midfield now. Terry got too many issues. Malouda to relegated to Chelsea's 2nd/3rd grade squad, Cech/Cole will grow less dominant as years pass by. In short, Chelsea's win wasn't based on talent or football skills or tactics, it was based on luck (yes!), determination, ego uprise, desperation and hardwork.

    I'm not saying they would have won CWC with their old players but their chemistry, mutual understanding, determination, atmosphere isn't the same now as it was in April/May. It's a new team with lots of recruits, youngsters and players who are growing in influence; who'll try to create a new Chelsea. An upcoming generation of Mata-Oscar-Hazard-Marin-Ramires-Luiz-Cahill-Moses-Azpilicueta... Right now, a new Chelsea is clearly failing to be born again! And quite frankly, I'm happy for that. But time (and Abramovitch's money) may change everything...

    But yeah, their CWC loss did hurt EPL and CL reputation. On first note, I'm more than elated to see Platini, UEFA, CL taking blows and I hope they'll keep taking some if that leads to Platini's firing. But as far as EPL is concerned, this hurt mainly because it occurred; so soon after Chelsea and City's CL elimination. I won't go around 100 routes, right now EPL is NOT the most competitive league in terms of gameplay or team forces or recent results. Still,

    1. That doesn't mean all teams are weak.
    2. They still got the best stats and history in CL in last 7 years. So, they remain a steady league based on their accomplishments in recent years.
    3. Chelsea still won the CL nonetheless how they did it and like it or not, they are another EPL team to be added on CL's winners list.

    The Liga is already won by Barcelona (lol). If I were Mou, I'd play a B-Team more often in Liga to maximize CL's chances cause it's impossible to catch up now. Evra recently said that all United players would be sacked if they drop their lead again like last season to hand it to City. Well, I don't think any Barca players should say that but imo, they all should hang themselves if they lost their lead to the 2 Madrid teams. I've no more words to describe when Messi breaks stats; so no comments

    Juventus/Milan would bid for Falcao but ultimately, I think he'll end up in the money-spending clubs like Chelsea, City or PSG. He will shine at Juventus the most but with Torres's abysmal form, he'll get lots of starting positions at Chelsea. Milan? Well, it depends if Milan's bid and project attract Falcao or if Berlusconi's mafia business flourished to hand some financial boost to Milan. He'll get less opportunities at City and PSG. Ballotelli may be exiting but Ageuro/Tevez remains highly efficient. And I don't see Ibra with Falcao together; though that'll be something dream-like on paper. Now, if he likes to compete for starting spots and likes money+challenges, then City/PSG will sound great to his ears.
     
         

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    Re: General Football Debates!

    I agree every team needs luck from time to time, even the best of them. My main point towards the factor is how they've won it and lost it, which you even cannot deny has been one of the worst things to happen in football. There's a chance of this even happening to Barcelona at any time also and it would be my same reaction as I would be hugely disappointed. Chelsea spent over million or billions in the past 7-8 years to what to play defensive football? Ypu do realize even Roman wasn't impressed on how they won it. Reason why he wasn't to quick to hire RDM back, and the man is clearly obsessed with Pep he offered Pep 20 million a year.

    Of all honesty I've been on the ESPNFC (Soccernet) board a lot so my frustration/angry vent is kind of uncalled towards Chelsea/EPL, are SF against Chelsea in 2009 was no better, but as you can see a lot of trolls have gotten to me on that site comment section. EPL is competitive mainly due to Roman money for Chelsea and the oil money for City, or other than that mainly that league would've belong to United, considering in the past two decades they already own 50% of the league titles. If it wasn't for Roman/etc maybe Liverpool would've had chances to sign decent players, or Everton, maybe Wenger could've created Invisible 2.0.

    In La Liga, I'll tell you what A. Madrid coach Simone said, "With our weapons we try to be competitive. And today for a long time we are. We put in an enormous effort, we showed our souls. We lost to a team (Barcelona) who plays in a different league than ours. They are making this a boring league."

    To rephrase his words, Barcelona are a cut above the rest and the only team to challenge is Madrid. I watch La Liga Valencia/Malaga/Sevilla/Bilbao all fight hard and try to beat Barcelona/Madrid at their own game, and at times do get the results, but we are speaking of one the best teams playing and arguable could be the best, and with Madrid we are speaking about one of the best team assembled. A. Madrid hammer European champions Chelsea, yes they made changes, but doesn't change the fact they're till champions and have quality, but they got outplay and outclassed. Europa league in the past decade 5 La Liga (2 Sevilla/2 A. Madrid and 1 Valencia) teams have won in meaning outlasting the rest of the world mid table teams. I can assure you they can even give the top teams a run for their money. Valencia is in poor form in league, but both the games VS Bayern even tho they got dominated in the first one they still fought and with 10 man even held Bayern. Barcelona as well as Madrid as Raul once said, "The current Barcelona/Madrid side would rule in every league."

    I doubt Chelsea can build a legacy/dynasty, unless Mou return or even some how Pep and he's able to succeed than perhaps, but how long before Madrid come knocking for either Hazard/Mata/Oscar? And when Roman leaves with his money?

    I heard Gill is trying to get the UEFA job? If he doesn't leave United any sort of success they get in Europe will be question just as it is questioned in England.

    Well Barcelona are far from their strides, two main points:

    1. Relying on Messi, not saying its bad, but what happens if in some key games he can't deliver? Almost the entire Barcelona squad (if not already) have a goal to their name, but not a single player other than Messi is in doubles. Pedro has gone 18-19 games without scoring, even tho he's had plenty of chances.
    2. Defence, Barcelona this season have conceded as much goals as one of the bottom team in La Liga. We may suffer a few set backs in La Liga, hence why I won't write out both Madrid, but this will hurt in CL down the road the most.

    Pique said, "Barcelona have the title to lose." Madrid last season after the break also drop a hand full of points i only pray we don't. Mou can't play a B team, or else he'll face the wrath of Madristas. I'm only assuming at the end of this season win league or CL, he'll be out, if he makes a comeback in the league it'll be the best thing for him and Madrid. As well as CR and Ozil, hence why perhaps Madrid are looking into Aguero/Silva perhaps replacements.

    Falcao with Juventus midfield may perhaps give Messi/CR/Iniesta a run for their money. I just don't see Chelsea/City/PSG getting the best of Falcao to be honest. Those teams are always buying players and changing coaches, which isn't wise and hurts them. PSG/City will soon learn from Roman.
     
         

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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Quote Originally Posted by ReLax - View Post
    I agree every team needs luck from time to time, even the best of them. My main point towards the factor is how they've won it and lost it, which you even cannot deny has been one of the worst things to happen in football. There's a chance of this even happening to Barcelona at any time also and it would be my same reaction as I would be hugely disappointed. Chelsea spent over million or billions in the past 7-8 years to what to play defensive football? Ypu do realize even Roman wasn't impressed on how they won it. Reason why he wasn't to quick to hire RDM back, and the man is clearly obsessed with Pep he offered Pep 20 million a year.

    Of all honesty I've been on the ESPNFC (Soccernet) board a lot so my frustration/angry vent is kind of uncalled towards Chelsea/EPL, are SF against Chelsea in 2009 was no better, but as you can see a lot of trolls have gotten to me on that site comment section. EPL is competitive mainly due to Roman money for Chelsea and the oil money for City, or other than that mainly that league would've belong to United, considering in the past two decades they already own 50% of the league titles. If it wasn't for Roman/etc maybe Liverpool would've had chances to sign decent players, or Everton, maybe Wenger could've created Invisible 2.0.

    In La Liga, I'll tell you what A. Madrid coach Simone said, "With our weapons we try to be competitive. And today for a long time we are. We put in an enormous effort, we showed our souls. We lost to a team (Barcelona) who plays in a different league than ours. They are making this a boring league."

    To rephrase his words, Barcelona are a cut above the rest and the only team to challenge is Madrid. I watch La Liga Valencia/Malaga/Sevilla/Bilbao all fight hard and try to beat Barcelona/Madrid at their own game, and at times do get the results, but we are speaking of one the best teams playing and arguable could be the best, and with Madrid we are speaking about one of the best team assembled. A. Madrid hammer European champions Chelsea, yes they made changes, but doesn't change the fact they're till champions and have quality, but they got outplay and outclassed. Europa league in the past decade 5 La Liga (2 Sevilla/2 A. Madrid and 1 Valencia) teams have won in meaning outlasting the rest of the world mid table teams. I can assure you they can even give the top teams a run for their money. Valencia is in poor form in league, but both the games VS Bayern even tho they got dominated in the first one they still fought and with 10 man even held Bayern. Barcelona as well as Madrid as Raul once said, "The current Barcelona/Madrid side would rule in every league."

    I doubt Chelsea can build a legacy/dynasty, unless Mou return or even some how Pep and he's able to succeed than perhaps, but how long before Madrid come knocking for either Hazard/Mata/Oscar? And when Roman leaves with his money?

    I heard Gill is trying to get the UEFA job? If he doesn't leave United any sort of success they get in Europe will be question just as it is questioned in England.

    Well Barcelona are far from their strides, two main points:

    1. Relying on Messi, not saying its bad, but what happens if in some key games he can't deliver? Almost the entire Barcelona squad (if not already) have a goal to their name, but not a single player other than Messi is in doubles. Pedro has gone 18-19 games without scoring, even tho he's had plenty of chances.
    2. Defence, Barcelona this season have conceded as much goals as one of the bottom team in La Liga. We may suffer a few set backs in La Liga, hence why I won't write out both Madrid, but this will hurt in CL down the road the most.

    Pique said, "Barcelona have the title to lose." Madrid last season after the break also drop a hand full of points i only pray we don't. Mou can't play a B team, or else he'll face the wrath of Madristas. I'm only assuming at the end of this season win league or CL, he'll be out, if he makes a comeback in the league it'll be the best thing for him and Madrid. As well as CR and Ozil, hence why perhaps Madrid are looking into Aguero/Silva perhaps replacements.

    Falcao with Juventus midfield may perhaps give Messi/CR/Iniesta a run for their money. I just don't see Chelsea/City/PSG getting the best of Falcao to be honest. Those teams are always buying players and changing coaches, which isn't wise and hurts them. PSG/City will soon learn from Roman.
    Sincerely speaking, Chelsea's CL win won't make it to my list of Worst Things to Happen in Football History. Racism would, hooliganism would, match-fixing would, non-introduction of technology would, unstable economic expenditure on salaries/transfers would but sorry, Chelsea's lifting up the CL trophy won't. It sure is hard to digest for you after Barca's defeat against them and after you had your said-harsh time on diverse forums but let's not go to that length.

    Roman wasn't impressed? Perhaps. Was Roman happy? , obviously. The guy is so elated over Chelsea's European win that he stopped wearing suits & blazers and only wear the CL jacket now, wherever he goes. Some even jokes about that he sleeps with the jacket in winter too.

    If you do remove Chelsea/City right now then yes, the league will be United's custody. But were they never have gotten wealthy owners, then Arsenal, Tottenham, Everton, Liverpool would all have been top-teams in today's times. So I agree with you on that part. But what's done is done now. Some glorious historical teams (Milan, Rangers ect...) have been hit hard by economic of today while some (City, PSG, Zenit, Chelsea) got luckier and got a boost. That's life - a terrible things to occur in football but tragedy occurs everywhere.

    A dynasty/legacy can be built by any team and similarly, any team's legacy/dynasty can also be broken. I think you went a little presumptuous by saying that Chelsea will not built a legacy/dynasty. As a United fan, I really hope they won't but time changes so many things - so who knows?

    What, few people know is that SAF's relation with Gill has been deteriorating in last years. That's why he secured another job at FA; besides being CEO at United. He remains a big part in MU backstage but not on the field. He is staying with United mainly because he understands MU's popularity reach worldwide and sees it as a flourishing business for him and Glazers. He isn't doing both jobs out of love for United. Neither is it out of loyalty. He is more of a Glazer's minions and just like Glazer who spent United's banks for their own business, Gill is also using United's brand to do better business. It's all money and that disgusts me. So, frankly, even if Gill got a place at UEFA, that's his issue and his career/salary. It barely concern United.

    Barcelona still can't lose their lead. It's impossible; no matter Messi's dependency or defence issues. But yeah, it may cost them the CL on a long run. Well, Mou is already facing wrath of Madristas. So, it's wiser to start vying for CL now. Even Casillas started stating about wanting La Decima more than retaining La Liga. They are in similar situation as Dortmund. They got a great squad; better do good management and decide over a more-accessible trophy. If this current Madrid team makes a comeback in La Liga, that'll be the craziest thing. Expect match-fixing allegations and procedures to flow onto Barcelona and Madrid aplenty.

    CR won't go to Chelsea or City though - 2 clubs where Mou can ends up. The place I see CR, is only United and Madrid right now. He is a cash-cow for many teams and cost enormously but he remains loyal to his teams - be it his debut club at Sporting, where he rise at United or where he dreamt to be someday at Madrid. CR got no personal objective of a club to be at - except United but he's undesirable by Spanish media unfortunately. If not United, he'll choose money-minting club that isn't a rival to Madrid or Barcelona; perhaps PSG or an MLS club or Russian club? But that'll be sad for a player to end at those clubs, who remains among the best right now.

    Chelsea can get the best out of Falcao but I'm doubtful over City/PSG too. Juve with Falcao-calibre striker will indeed be a force to fear. Juve sounds perfect to me for Falcao too but there remains money-issues.
     
         

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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Thats the difference. Milan have been hit with it, as have Malaga (don't have history really), but yet the sides that benefited from billionaires are out of CL (except PSG, they can thank the veterans on the team) and the ones that suffered are still in. Milan have a prestige, value and identity in football today, no matter what hits them they'll come back, look at Juventus. Chelsea/City lose the billionaires and get into money problems, they'll fight to stay out of regulation spot. I'll explain more at the bottom on why I believe Chelsea/City/Zenit/PSG may not create a legacy/dynasty, especially with the billionaires.

    I don't think I presumptuous on anything in what I said, but rather have a speculation on the matter looking into their history (past and current), as well as having actually factual information going along with it. They'll never be among the best clubs, perhaps great ones like Benfica/Porto etc if they pick up, but that to can be questioned. I'll explain.

    1950-1960 Madrid, 1970 Ajax and Bayern triumphs, Liverpool, AC Milan, Barcelona, etc. How do you think these teams made a legacy/dynasty? Why are they considered the best clubs to have ever played football?

    1. All these teams have had foreigner, but the team was most composed of either academy students or home grown talents (Madrid/Barcelona, Spanish players, Bayern, German players, etc).
    2. Style of play/Tactic/Chemistry
    3. League+Europe/Dominance
    4. Thrill they bought not only to their own supporters, but overall to football supporters
    5. Loyalty

    Chelsea/City has neither quality or may never have it due to a few reason I'll list above.

    Rich owners are the most self-centred, arrogant, and demanding people ever. Roman obsession with Torres, well he over paid and look were they both are now. Roman obsession with Pep, he's willing to pay 20 million a year to him, doesn't that make him the most paid manager ever, if not one of the most paid? And for what because he thinks Pep can emulate Barcelona in Chelsea? Tell me one team that has been able to emulate another? Sheikh desperate to make academy like Barcelona and praying for Xavi/Iniesta/Messi to come out. Mancini said it already, "A player like Messi comes once every 50 year." Sheikh desperation to sign Pep also, he already has two former Barcelona employees working there. Sheikh soon will follow Roman as well PSG owners and Zenit. Roman treats his clubs coaches/managers like prostitute or should I say expensive escorts, pays them a ton, does his business with them and after he's done throws them away, even tho they tried to do everything to satisfy his club and him, for the time they were given.

    Lack of loyalty between the players. Mata/Hazard/Oscar are the future, but tomorrow if Madrid/Barcelona coming knocking do you honestly think they'd think twice before accepting? Cech/Drogba/Zola are the very few players in Chelsea I can call world class, Lampard/Terry are great players to me, but not world class. Nasri left for money/titles, Aguero needed out and City were the only ones after him, he knows now Madrid want him, so he is unsettled. Silva loves Spain and should've been in Madrid, but Mou got Ozil over him, hence he went to City. Balotelli isn't happy. Dezko is neither. How long will Kompany stay? I can't really even list a world class player thats considered a legend in City, perhaps Aguero will be for that winning goal last season.

    Youth system. Do they even have one? Ok, sarcasm, but I'm sure you know were I'm getting with this. The biggest key to the best teams in history comes thru academy and English haven't created anyone as good as Ronaldo/Messi/Zidane, or even a Pirlo/Xavi/Ineista. Perhaps Scholes can be considered near their level. A lot of their footballers are overrated.

    League/Europe dominance, United/Liverpool have a higher prestige/value/identity in football compared too Chelsea/City. Liverpool dominated in the 70/80's and United in the 90/00's. Chelsea have 4 league titles and City have 3 both these teams combined don't even have as much as United/Pool yet alone Arsenal. Chelsea/City have 7 titles combined from EPL and 4 of those came from the billionaires.

    Surely Chelsea/City supporters are happy watching their teams, but Chelsea/City are yet to mesmerize the world and judging from recent forms, they're actually labelled either a disgrace too football overall or at least to EPL. Their style of play is boring and get outclassed by some mid table teams, or even other European offensive teams like Ajax/Dortmund/Shaktar out play them. They suck when it comes to chemistry, they can't built it when you watch them sometimes its like every men for himself, not always I know, but at times its thanks to all that money they spend on forwards that get them wins. Even Liverpool gives them a hard time.

    Conclusion, Milan/Madrid/Barcelona/United/etc can go thru a crisis and bankruptcy, but can still get back up, if it happens to City/Chelsea, they'll fight to stay out of regulation. Without a billionaire they have little no hope. Hence why these billionaires won't always be around and when they aren't these teams will go back to waiting 20-40 years before winning a league again. They don't have an identity at the moment, and have been trying to find one, but have yet to. Without these owners they're a mid table team, or even lower (possible). All these big names they have are their for the money and hope they can win something after spending millions, which they do win some titles, but not winners regular basis.

    Well, SAF would say otherwise. In a recent interview he actually backed Gill for the UEFA job and conspiracy theorist were out on force in the comment sections. "Sir Alex Ferguson claims Manchester United chief executive David Gill will fix UEFA's disciplinary system if he is elected to the board next year." "David Gill is very well respected," said Ferguson. "He is a fantastic chief executive. He is straight 100% black and white.

    Casillas and Mou want CL, I'm sure they'll gun for it and possible enough for their squad even if they aren't top form, Chelsea showed that last year. The matching-fixing, etc is even going on now. Nothing new, but it'll get in depth come end of season if a comeback is made.

    I already spoke about my opinion about Mou/Pep/Moyes on SAF possible replacement at United not here tho, so will save that for another time.

    CR will only go back, if SAF/Mou take him, but he'll need to take a pay cut. SAF said they did have a buy back clause, but his weekly wages are way too much for them and with Rooney/RVP already United would lose a lot, but they'd still earn a lot off him too. I think CR7 is done in Spain, as long as Messi keeps this form up CR will be second their perhaps a move out and dominate in another league and give Messi a run for the Ballon. I'm sure the Messi set to receive the 4th one if rumours are correct, as the voting's were done already. Who knows. I'd still hope a Spanish wins in, if Messi lifts it I hope he gives it to Iniesta as he believes he deserves it, but I doubt FIFA would allow it, would be nice. CR deserve it as much, so at the end may the best win. I hope CR doesn't throw his career away because of this you can already see in his past few game, he isn't himself and things are bothering him, even tho I play devil advocate on him, it'd be a shame for him to turn into Dinho. Still would like to see them play it out. CR would've been more successful if he had stayed at United.

    Bayern would be a good place. Many Bayern fans aren't happy with Gomez, but they payed already 40 million for Martinez, so doubt that'll happen. I hope Chelsea get the most out of him if he goes and if he flops their we know that club is cursed for strikers.
     
         

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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Quote Originally Posted by ReLax - View Post
    Thats the difference. Milan have been hit with it, as have Malaga (don't have history really), but yet the sides that benefited from billionaires are out of CL (except PSG, they can thank the veterans on the team) and the ones that suffered are still in. Milan have a prestige, value and identity in football today, no matter what hits them they'll come back, look at Juventus. Chelsea/City lose the billionaires and get into money problems, they'll fight to stay out of regulation spot. I'll explain more at the bottom on why I believe Chelsea/City/Zenit/PSG may not create a legacy/dynasty, especially with the billionaires.

    I don't think I presumptuous on anything in what I said, but rather have a speculation on the matter looking into their history (past and current), as well as having actually factual information going along with it. They'll never be among the best clubs, perhaps great ones like Benfica/Porto etc if they pick up, but that to can be questioned. I'll explain.

    1950-1960 Madrid, 1970 Ajax and Bayern triumphs, Liverpool, AC Milan, Barcelona, etc. How do you think these teams made a legacy/dynasty? Why are they considered the best clubs to have ever played football?

    1. All these teams have had foreigner, but the team was most composed of either academy students or home grown talents (Madrid/Barcelona, Spanish players, Bayern, German players, etc).
    2. Style of play/Tactic/Chemistry
    3. League+Europe/Dominance
    4. Thrill they bought not only to their own supporters, but overall to football supporters
    5. Loyalty

    Chelsea/City has neither quality or may never have it due to a few reason I'll list above.

    Rich owners are the most self-centred, arrogant, and demanding people ever. Roman obsession with Torres, well he over paid and look were they both are now. Roman obsession with Pep, he's willing to pay 20 million a year to him, doesn't that make him the most paid manager ever, if not one of the most paid? And for what because he thinks Pep can emulate Barcelona in Chelsea? Tell me one team that has been able to emulate another? Sheikh desperate to make academy like Barcelona and praying for Xavi/Iniesta/Messi to come out. Mancini said it already, "A player like Messi comes once every 50 year." Sheikh desperation to sign Pep also, he already has two former Barcelona employees working there. Sheikh soon will follow Roman as well PSG owners and Zenit. Roman treats his clubs coaches/managers like prostitute or should I say expensive escorts, pays them a ton, does his business with them and after he's done throws them away, even tho they tried to do everything to satisfy his club and him, for the time they were given.

    Lack of loyalty between the players. Mata/Hazard/Oscar are the future, but tomorrow if Madrid/Barcelona coming knocking do you honestly think they'd think twice before accepting? Cech/Drogba/Zola are the very few players in Chelsea I can call world class, Lampard/Terry are great players to me, but not world class. Nasri left for money/titles, Aguero needed out and City were the only ones after him, he knows now Madrid want him, so he is unsettled. Silva loves Spain and should've been in Madrid, but Mou got Ozil over him, hence he went to City. Balotelli isn't happy. Dezko is neither. How long will Kompany stay? I can't really even list a world class player thats considered a legend in City, perhaps Aguero will be for that winning goal last season.

    Youth system. Do they even have one? Ok, sarcasm, but I'm sure you know were I'm getting with this. The biggest key to the best teams in history comes thru academy and English haven't created anyone as good as Ronaldo/Messi/Zidane, or even a Pirlo/Xavi/Ineista. Perhaps Scholes can be considered near their level. A lot of their footballers are overrated.

    League/Europe dominance, United/Liverpool have a higher prestige/value/identity in football compared too Chelsea/City. Liverpool dominated in the 70/80's and United in the 90/00's. Chelsea have 4 league titles and City have 3 both these teams combined don't even have as much as United/Pool yet alone Arsenal. Chelsea/City have 7 titles combined from EPL and 4 of those came from the billionaires.

    Surely Chelsea/City supporters are happy watching their teams, but Chelsea/City are yet to mesmerize the world and judging from recent forms, they're actually labelled either a disgrace too football overall or at least to EPL. Their style of play is boring and get outclassed by some mid table teams, or even other European offensive teams like Ajax/Dortmund/Shaktar out play them. They suck when it comes to chemistry, they can't built it when you watch them sometimes its like every men for himself, not always I know, but at times its thanks to all that money they spend on forwards that get them wins. Even Liverpool gives them a hard time.

    Conclusion, Milan/Madrid/Barcelona/United/etc can go thru a crisis and bankruptcy, but can still get back up, if it happens to City/Chelsea, they'll fight to stay out of regulation. Without a billionaire they have little no hope. Hence why these billionaires won't always be around and when they aren't these teams will go back to waiting 20-40 years before winning a league again. They don't have an identity at the moment, and have been trying to find one, but have yet to. Without these owners they're a mid table team, or even lower (possible). All these big names they have are their for the money and hope they can win something after spending millions, which they do win some titles, but not winners regular basis.

    Well, SAF would say otherwise. In a recent interview he actually backed Gill for the UEFA job and conspiracy theorist were out on force in the comment sections. "Sir Alex Ferguson claims Manchester United chief executive David Gill will fix UEFA's disciplinary system if he is elected to the board next year." "David Gill is very well respected," said Ferguson. "He is a fantastic chief executive. He is straight 100% black and white.

    Casillas and Mou want CL, I'm sure they'll gun for it and possible enough for their squad even if they aren't top form, Chelsea showed that last year. The matching-fixing, etc is even going on now. Nothing new, but it'll get in depth come end of season if a comeback is made.

    I already spoke about my opinion about Mou/Pep/Moyes on SAF possible replacement at United not here tho, so will save that for another time.

    CR will only go back, if SAF/Mou take him, but he'll need to take a pay cut. SAF said they did have a buy back clause, but his weekly wages are way too much for them and with Rooney/RVP already United would lose a lot, but they'd still earn a lot off him too. I think CR7 is done in Spain, as long as Messi keeps this form up CR will be second their perhaps a move out and dominate in another league and give Messi a run for the Ballon. I'm sure the Messi set to receive the 4th one if rumours are correct, as the voting's were done already. Who knows. I'd still hope a Spanish wins in, if Messi lifts it I hope he gives it to Iniesta as he believes he deserves it, but I doubt FIFA would allow it, would be nice. CR deserve it as much, so at the end may the best win. I hope CR doesn't throw his career away because of this you can already see in his past few game, he isn't himself and things are bothering him, even tho I play devil advocate on him, it'd be a shame for him to turn into Dinho. Still would like to see them play it out. CR would've been more successful if he had stayed at United.

    Bayern would be a good place. Many Bayern fans aren't happy with Gomez, but they payed already 40 million for Martinez, so doubt that'll happen. I hope Chelsea get the most out of him if he goes and if he flops their we know that club is cursed for strikers.


    So, went from why 'Chelsea flopped in CWC' to 'Why sugar daddies teams can't create a dynasty?'. And I guess, I'll need to play the pledging advocate who present the pros. Damn, so kind of you

    Before I try to present some points, I don't understand why you don't like the Sheikh's big plan academy school. I also hate when some players are bought with over-rated price on their heads but still, as far as building/schools constructions are concerned, this is a brilliant move that should be encouraged. It shouldn't be seen as a Barca copycat school but as a project that's gonna promote lots of aspiring football youngsters. And on the 2 former employees of Barca at City, there are 2 reasons: As you said, a ploy to attract Pep but also, the 2 guys who were fired at those posts, were having ill-relations with Mancini and on Mancini's insistence of having two new guys there, those 2 former Barca employees were taken.

    High-escort? God, you're on fire. Okay, I capitulate on the fact that no managers may emulate his previous teams. But just like class is permanent, experience is eternal. I can't say if Chelsea/City/PSG ect... will someday have a legacy but no matter how badly, those owners treat their bought-managers & players, their way of choosing experienced managers/players might pay off someday. All those great sides you have mentioned, may have had lots of academy players/country players but they also have one star-player or one maverick manager. These billionaires don't do things in order and are choosing a star player/manager first but who knows, it might pay off someday. True, Pep will never make his new team like Barcelona. True, Ancelotti will never make PSG emulate his Milan. But the experience, will to win, culture and success that those managers acquired, still have a chance to provide a rising dynasty to another team; provided they got time to do so. Technically, the reason why City/Chelsea/PSG ect... can't create a dynasty is less based on potential and more due lack of trust from owners to coaches and from coach to players.

    Will these players refuse of Barca/Madrid come knocking? I say, yes! And there have been veiled indication of this trend too. Most star-players won't refuse to play with a prestigious side - that was the old rule. Now, there's 2 new rules seemingly - Either, a star player in a less-rich or smaller club won't refuse to play with a prestigious side or a star-player won't refuse to play for a prestigious side who's proposing enough money. Madrid/Barca bought a lot players but how many of those players were from sugar-daddies teams? Fabregas/Benzema/Di Maria/Contrao/Alba /Alexis ect... all are great highly-sought players but who were transferred from self-independent teams like Arsenal/Valencia/Lyon/Benfica ect... CR7/Alonso/Kaka may be said to come from presitigious teams like United/Milan/Liverpool but they were sold due to money debts. You talk as if Silva/Aguero/Kompany will leave for Madrid/Barca anyday when they are asked for but money plays a big role. Will Madrid/Barca pay the same wage as City does to those players? Silva started dreaming of Madrid recently again and once his salary was raised, he was stable at City. Same for Aguero. Besides, you think City will accept to sell their starting players like in Fabregas-kind-of deal with installements payoffs? And with Spain's economic state, Madrid/Barca will indeed rely more on their prestige/history than on their bank power. Money influence football more than history nowadays.

    We keep talking about lack of loyalty of players but we end up forgetting for how many years have Cech/Cole/Terry/Essien/Drogba/Malouda/Lampard been with Chelsea since Abramovitch's arrival. We also don't mention how all of City 11 starters of last EPL-winning season stayed and never went to sides with more history... It's true that their loyalty is more connected with their paycheck than their love for their club. But they remain loyal - artificial loyalty perhaps - but loyalty still... And as for City legends, I'd mention the Benett Brothers, Bret Trautman & Kinkladze. Aguero is not a legend lol

    Hmm, I'll always mention that Giggs, Scholes, Beckham are equally world-class and all came from English Academies. And there's still Rooney. But I do agree that English academies produce few world-class caliber players if compared to Spain, Germany & Italy. That's all the more reason to support Sheikh's decision to create a new high-class academy instead of questioning their will?

    Okay, got your point with your prestige point but as much as I'm proud to state that as a United fan, as the one who needs to present counter-arguments in this debate, I'm forced to acknowledge that money is talking louder nowadays as I said above. And in case, money binds most players to those money-created-sides like PSG/City/Chelsea, then those teams will retain their players from the clutches of Madrid/Barca/United/Liverpool/Milan/Juve/Bayern ect... and might create a legacy on a longer basis. I hope that day doesn't come but I'm skeptical unlike you.

    Okay, I do agree that they lack a soul and chemistry and have been outclassed often or self-dependent on a sole star player more than once. But chemistry buds with time only. If players aren't from academies, then they need more time for adaptation with their teammates. And as I said, given how those teams are mostly buying and less selling makes me wonder if they won't create some kind of chemistry someday.

    There have been great sides who have been assembled with mostly foreigners btw - Madrid Galacticos & Arsenal Invincible being the most obvious examples. In fact, the rise of EPL to the most mediatized league in the world have been mainly due to foreigners. In an old league dominated by United/Liverpool/Leeds and which consisted mainly of Brits, the true craze of EPL was born with foreigners introduction imo; especially with Wenger's French revolution. Also, foreigners transfers are linked to National Sides domination. At a time, it was the French, then the Brazilians, then Portuguese and now mostly Spanish/German.

    Okay, they may fight to stay out of relegation without the billionaires owners but unfortunately, these owners are not going anywhere. In fact, more are going to come given how Arab don't have an ounce of big impending crisis upon their head. And as long as those billionaries support the likes of City/PSG/Chelsea/Zenit/Anzhi ect..., then I'm afraid they do have a chance of creating a dynasty/legacy someday.

    Ferguson said that Gill is full of integrity; which is correct unless proven otherwise. But as far as his personal relation is concerned, it's no more what it was. Gill used to be the link between United's club progress (Fergie) and United's bank safe (Glazers). But recently, Gill has more been using United's brand. We made some profits indeed and cut some debt but still, that's more Glazers' matter. As far as club progress in terms of transfers ect... are concerned, Fergie has to deal with Glazer more personally without Gill as intermediate. It's complicated. It's a bit like Kroenke/Gazidis at Arsenal - they are more concerned with Arsenal's finance than ambitions. Luckily for United, Fergie isn't a Glazer's pawn like how Wenger has become over the years at Arsenal.

    United have a buy-back clause for CR7? , even I didn't knew that But yeah, at the end of the day, Rooney/RVP wages are too much. Though I believe Nani's wages are quite high and Ferdinand would surely also decrease its high wages soon. It's not a desperate wish for United/CR7 reunion in case there's a buy-back clause but it remains difficult.

    And I may well talk on the final chapter of the Ballon D'Or. As you know, I said that both Messi/CR7 were closely matched in 2012 imo and that post the 2-2 Classico, Ronaldo had a slight advantage over Messi but that media's affinity with Messi might still cost Ronaldo at the end. That's when he played the 'I'm Sad' gamble. The gamble was to attract media attention away from Messi and then, it was do-or-die. Either, impress all detractors when lights were on him or disappoint. Unfortunately, the gamble failed as Madrid had a poor run of form; though Ronaldo still scores pretty regularly and started the first round of his gamble with the comeback goal against City. But alas! On the hand, as Ronaldo cost himself some points in the Ballon D'Or race, Messi broke Muller's record. Since neither were going to win any trophies, the race could have remain tight between Ronaldo and Messi but breaking a 40-year old record is like a trophy achievement in my eyes. Surely, the record that gave the final edge to Messi and deservingly should earn him the Ballon D'Or. But I do agree with you that all 3 - Messi/Iniesta/CR7 - were fantastic in 2012. But yeah, Ronaldo is better fighting Messi from another league like when he was at United.
     
         

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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Hi everyone, im new here, just wanna say i support MUFC. And i really doesnt type as much as u guys here. Just a random thoughts. Money can buy talents, and if carefully spends and invest, it could make fortune. But, seriously as if u wanna spend everything on buying quality players, how any club gonna survive if they didnt win anything major for another 3-4 years, and as far as sponsorship concerns, would it be a major loss in return?
     
         

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    Re: General Football Debates!

    ''Last 16 await 20 December draw.''

    Tomorrow, Group winners will face Group runners-up, in the Champlions Leage, for the next Round.

    Can't wait to see which team German-Clubs, Celtic, Barcelona and other clubs will meet!
    Real Madrid as runners-up can be a dangerous club to most of the GS-Winners. So, I think it will be very interesting.
    As a Bayern fan, I would like to see Bayern agaist Milan or Arsenal.

    Group winners: Paris Saint-Germain FC (FRA), FC Schalke 04 (GER), Málaga CF (ESP), Borussia Dortmund (GER), Juventus (ITA), FC Bayern München (GER), FC Barcelona (ESP), Manchester United FC (ENG)

    Group runners-up: FC Porto (POR), Arsenal FC (ENG), AC Milan (ITA), Real Madrid CF (ESP), FC Shakhtar Donetsk (UKR), Valencia CF (ESP), Celtic FC (SCO), Galatasaray AŞ (TUR)

    More info, Click here...
     
         

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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Quote Originally Posted by -God of War- View Post
    ''Last 16 await 20 December draw.''

    Tomorrow, Group winners will face Group runners-up, in the Champlions Leage, for the next Round.

    Can't wait to see which team German-Clubs, Celtic, Barcelona and other clubs will meet!
    Real Madrid as runners-up can be a dangerous club to most of the GS-Winners. So, I think it will be very interesting.
    As a Bayern fan, I would like to see Bayern agaist Milan or Arsenal.

    Group winners: Paris Saint-Germain FC (FRA), FC Schalke 04 (GER), Málaga CF (ESP), Borussia Dortmund (GER), Juventus (ITA), FC Bayern München (GER), FC Barcelona (ESP), Manchester United FC (ENG)

    Group runners-up: FC Porto (POR), Arsenal FC (ENG), AC Milan (ITA), Real Madrid CF (ESP), FC Shakhtar Donetsk (UKR), Valencia CF (ESP), Celtic FC (SCO), Galatasaray AŞ (TUR)

    More info, Click here...
    Thread is up ^^ Click!
    As promised, I'll cover it live tomorrow like I did for Group Stage Draw.
     
         

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