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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Well, Pep promised Pinto that he'll play all matches of Copa Del Rey; atleast that's what I heard. Guess he sticked to his words. The thing about Valdes is that I wonder if one day we'll know if he's really a Barca caliber goalkeeper or just lucky mostly that 9 players at Barca attack so efficiently that he barely gets to do some jobs.

    Well, I think, by comparing the style of plays, I think Madrid can definitely compete with the big clubs. The real question is that if they can play against the biggest? Right now, it's still not the case but I think they're the most armed to defeat a full-complete Barca side.

    The controversies about the squad division is also ripening recently; though players and staffs denied it. But for sure, even if I think they are a united team, I don't think the unity in Madrid is their biggest strength. It's almost an impossible feat considering all the egos in this squad.

    Last thing, I must admit that their defense still worries me. When Mou arrived at Madrid, I thought that after his past with Inter and Chelsea, the first big change that will occur will be to see a much more rigid defensive Madrid side. But, though they are a more rough defense, that compact in defense was never seen. Sure, his arrival made Madrid make big leaps of progress. Their play-style and attacking display prove that. But I don't think he has succeeded in creating a solidarity in that defense. At least, not a defense at par with the one he had at Inter or Chelsea.

    , at that comment. For now, it's an other comment that I read minutes ago that bugged me and got me thinking - Does Xavi/Iniesta make Messi shine or is it due to Messi that those 2 shine?
     
         

  2. #162
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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Quote Originally Posted by Escorpiius View Post
    Well, Pep promised Pinto that he'll play all matches of Copa Del Rey; atleast that's what I heard. Guess he sticked to his words. The thing about Valdes is that I wonder if one day we'll know if he's really a Barca caliber goalkeeper or just lucky mostly that 9 players at Barca attack so efficiently that he barely gets to do some jobs.

    Well, I think, by comparing the style of plays, I think Madrid can definitely compete with the big clubs. The real question is that if they can play against the biggest? Right now, it's still not the case but I think they're the most armed to defeat a full-complete Barca side.

    The controversies about the squad division is also ripening recently; though players and staffs denied it. But for sure, even if I think they are a united team, I don't think the unity in Madrid is their biggest strength. It's almost an impossible feat considering all the egos in this squad.

    Last thing, I must admit that their defense still worries me. When Mou arrived at Madrid, I thought that after his past with Inter and Chelsea, the first big change that will occur will be to see a much more rigid defensive Madrid side. But, though they are a more rough defense, that compact in defense was never seen. Sure, his arrival made Madrid make big leaps of progress. Their play-style and attacking display prove that. But I don't think he has succeeded in creating a solidarity in that defense. At least, not a defense at par with the one he had at Inter or Chelsea.

    , at that comment. For now, it's an other comment that I read minutes ago that bugged me and got me thinking - Does Xavi/Iniesta make Messi shine or is it due to Messi that those 2 shine?
    That was in Pinto case last week were he didn't face much shots, but 2 of the 4 he faced one went in the other hit the post. Valdes has improved for sure, and he come up big at times. This weekend they faced Malaga and Valdes made some key saves.

    The reason why we believe they are the best to be able to beat this Barca team is due to the players they have, I'm more worried to see Barcelona face Bayern and Milan atm. If Madrid face off VS the biggest (in CL) excluding Barcelona they may get a boost a heading of facing Barcelona again.

    Ego is the biggest part in that squad. I mean just today thru my phone of Score FC in La Liga I read an article were a Madrid press stated Mou is considering leaving Madrid either at the end of this season or at earlier if possible. He's had 6 defeats to Barca since start of his career at Madrid. They say he has many reason including the squad lack of respect, cliques being formed, defeat to Barca, and so on. Zidane has jumped in defense for Mou and chellenged any coach to beat this Barca team or think of a tactic to beat them before judging Mou. He (Mou) has already shown eager to return to EPL. If Mou leave CR7 will also be gone either to City or back to United. This still is a rumor if anything, but things are really getting heated up at Madrid.

    Leadership is key, but since Madrid go thru players like nothing its really hard to come across a loyal and leader worthy player. ATM Casillas is captain and Ramos is VC. Ramos is really hot headed kind of wonder why he is VC, but as I said excluding Casillas I don't think anyone else has been in Madrid for longer than 3-4 years (starting line up wise). City still have a few players who have been their for a while thus why they are strong in EPL ATM and have a leader.

    That all depends on how you want to look at it. If Xavi/Iniesta went to other clubs like Milan/United/City how do you think they'd perform? Xavi/Iniesta have shined with Spain winning European cup and WC. They played key roles in that without Messi, so they can perform without Messi.

    Messi has been a force with Barcelona, but he grew up with these guys and played for them for a long time. He's adapted to their style of play and when he plays for Argentina its a new system and a new team he plays with pretty much. He doesn't have that support with Argentina the way he does with Barcelona. This year I wanted Xavi to win Ballon D'or, Messi deserved it but Xavi was stunning. Xavi/Iniesta are playing even better than last year ATM.

    The way I look at it is that both make each other shine. A midfielder who creates the chances becomes a magician the one who finished also becomes a magician,which makes them both great. United have talented strikers, but no good midfield. City have Silva who makes Aguero, Dezko, Mario look good.

    I read two articles one were Juliano Belletti a former Barcelona player said Ronaldinho (click) was better than current Messi. I know you (Escrop) prefer Dinho over Messi, but Messi is better than Dinho in current state and he (Messi) will only get better. What really bothers me is how he thinks his side was better than current side? I mean really the current side is the best in Barcelona history their style is a lot better. He is also stating all the clubs like Madrid, Milan, United, Bayern are weaker now, which is false, because they aren't weaker, no team can find a proper tactic that is all, but the chance of beating Barcelona is their and it has been done before.

    Another nobody former back-up GK for Argentina who had 5-7 caps only states current Barcelona players would have been bench players in Pele/Maradona days. Fact that he was a nobody and barely played for Argentina. He was in a third club division says this? lol I mean really we can only speculate and assume how they would have played in those days, but his statement was false never the less, I can say the likes of Xavi, Cesc, Messi, Ineista, Puyol, Pique wopuld easily be starters.

    Moment of truth is approaching tho as Pep still has to make his decision on staying with Barcelona or moving on. His contract ends at the end of this season, and I hope he takes SaF word and stays as I can't see anyone else with the same vision as Pep for the club.
     
         

  3. #163
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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Quote Originally Posted by ReLax - View Post
    That was in Pinto case last week were he didn't face much shots, but 2 of the 4 he faced one went in the other hit the post. Valdes has improved for sure, and he come up big at times. This weekend they faced Malaga and Valdes made some key saves.

    The reason why we believe they are the best to be able to beat this Barca team is due to the players they have, I'm more worried to see Barcelona face Bayern and Milan atm. If Madrid face off VS the biggest (in CL) excluding Barcelona they may get a boost a heading of facing Barcelona again.

    Ego is the biggest part in that squad. I mean just today thru my phone of Score FC in La Liga I read an article were a Madrid press stated Mou is considering leaving Madrid either at the end of this season or at earlier if possible. He's had 6 defeats to Barca since start of his career at Madrid. They say he has many reason including the squad lack of respect, cliques being formed, defeat to Barca, and so on. Zidane has jumped in defense for Mou and chellenged any coach to beat this Barca team or think of a tactic to beat them before judging Mou. He (Mou) has already shown eager to return to EPL. If Mou leave CR7 will also be gone either to City or back to United. This still is a rumor if anything, but things are really getting heated up at Madrid.

    Leadership is key, but since Madrid go thru players like nothing its really hard to come across a loyal and leader worthy player. ATM Casillas is captain and Ramos is VC. Ramos is really hot headed kind of wonder why he is VC, but as I said excluding Casillas I don't think anyone else has been in Madrid for longer than 3-4 years (starting line up wise). City still have a few players who have been their for a while thus why they are strong in EPL ATM and have a leader.

    That all depends on how you want to look at it. If Xavi/Iniesta went to other clubs like Milan/United/City how do you think they'd perform? Xavi/Iniesta have shined with Spain winning European cup and WC. They played key roles in that without Messi, so they can perform without Messi.

    Messi has been a force with Barcelona, but he grew up with these guys and played for them for a long time. He's adapted to their style of play and when he plays for Argentina its a new system and a new team he plays with pretty much. He doesn't have that support with Argentina the way he does with Barcelona. This year I wanted Xavi to win Ballon D'or, Messi deserved it but Xavi was stunning. Xavi/Iniesta are playing even better than last year ATM.

    The way I look at it is that both make each other shine. A midfielder who creates the chances becomes a magician the one who finished also becomes a magician,which makes them both great. United have talented strikers, but no good midfield. City have Silva who makes Aguero, Dezko, Mario look good.

    I read two articles one were Juliano Belletti a former Barcelona player said Ronaldinho (click) was better than current Messi. I know you (Escrop) prefer Dinho over Messi, but Messi is better than Dinho in current state and he (Messi) will only get better. What really bothers me is how he thinks his side was better than current side? I mean really the current side is the best in Barcelona history their style is a lot better. He is also stating all the clubs like Madrid, Milan, United, Bayern are weaker now, which is false, because they aren't weaker, no team can find a proper tactic that is all, but the chance of beating Barcelona is their and it has been done before.

    Another nobody former back-up GK for Argentina who had 5-7 caps only states current Barcelona players would have been bench players in Pele/Maradona days. Fact that he was a nobody and barely played for Argentina. He was in a third club division says this? lol I mean really we can only speculate and assume how they would have played in those days, but his statement was false never the less, I can say the likes of Xavi, Cesc, Messi, Ineista, Puyol, Pique wopuld easily be starters.

    Moment of truth is approaching tho as Pep still has to make his decision on staying with Barcelona or moving on. His contract ends at the end of this season, and I hope he takes SaF word and stays as I can't see anyone else with the same vision as Pep for the club.


    Valdes improved for sure but how much can never be said cause it's fact that he faces too less saves to make due to being at Barca. Though, both teams are on exceptional level, I'd like to see how he performed regularly with Spain in big matches. The team strength are nearly the same but I think the 'National' pressure could prove to be a test factor. I don't think that'll happen unfortunately.

    Frankly, I wonder how the aftermath will be like, in case, Barca get eliminated by a team other than Real and Madrid ends up clinching both CL and Liga; though being each defeated in Classicos. Though I see Barca as clear favorites for the CL and know that in case, they reach final, they'll win it. But still, I know that 2-leg matches are where Barca can be more vulnerable, so who knows...Unpredictable football can be unpredictable. After all, the CL is quite unpredictable this year.

    I know that point and I, too agree, on the fact that Xavi/Iniesta are the ones who make the players shine and I know most critics, stats and history support that. Whether it's the National team analysis or the individual impact on the team.

    But still, look at the other side of the coin. And it's good that you mentioned that Ronnie article which I just read cause I was coming on that. So, as the question if the other team was better or not and whatever. Well, Xavi/Iniesta were already on Rijkaard and Ronaldinho's team if I'm not wrong but why is it that such two talents never got the attention at that time. Did they get overshadowed and if so, did Messi the ones who really make them looks good.

    When you look at it, Xavi/Iniesta are lucky to be surrounded by talents. Their midfield talents are exceptional but if their wasn't proper scorers for those assists, will those talents really have been shown at their proper value. Just like Messi feel alone without his passers, wouldn't Xavi/Iniesta feel lonely if they had poor strikers to valorise their own passers. In a way, with my question, I wasn't really interested in re-knowing the fact of who flops or not in National or on who deserve Ballon D'Or more! Indirectly, what interested me in that question was the hidden question - Who's more important in victory - Midfielders or Strikers.

    While, it's a given fact that defenders and goalkeepers are the key to prevent losses, the midfield and strikers strive the path to victory in football. The 2 undeniable fate of our great game. So here am re-stating - Who's more important in leading the path to victory - Midfielders or Strikers?

    The critics seem to judge the strikers more; with the recent Ballon D'Or winners boasting more of goal scorers. Like you said, Silva make Ballotelli, Dzeko, Aguero look good. I agree. Now, put the same Silva and ask him to serve jinxed players like Andy Caroll or the 'actual' Torres. Will he shine as much?

    I'm keeping this debate question up because it's been time since we both really debated on a general question and mostly debated on results only. Let's screw the Classico for once.

    As for the part of which team were better. I really don't know. I'll be quick on his topic since that one is quite an impossible question with many views who'll vary. I'll take Maradona and Messi for example. While, with videos I've seen, I see Messi to be a better player. Still, he flops in National Team while Diego alone lead Argentina to World Cup glory and even shined in many of his clubs. Does this mean that football was easier at time or does it mean that players were more complete players and more devoted due to the lesser influence of money at that time? Frankly, I don't know.

    And just for an ending note. I like Ronaldinho more but that doesn't mean I consider him better than Messi. Messi is more efficient (which is what matters in football today) but Ronaldinho got better technical skills to me. He's also the best and most innovative dribbler I've seen. Like I said upwards, the personal awards consider goal scoring abilities too often at the expense of other talents. While recently, it's been for the midfielders, I think the original technical players have also been overshadowed many times. In those awards were to be judged in terms of technical abilities and originality, then I easily could have foresee Ronaldinho as thrice winner of Ballon D'Or years ago (and God knows how many for ZZ). Let's say the Ronaldinho/Zidane were always more of a treat to watch on the field than others in my eyes.
     
         

  4. #164
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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Fu*king ridicules, I hate Barca and their efficiency... If Real had been as efficient, it should have been 2-4 now
     
         

  5. #165
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    Re: General Football Debates!

    I wrote this in the other thread regrading the first half...

    Will it's 2-0 barcelona heading to second half and my god Alves shot a rocket!!

    Either way some bad calls were made for both sides.

    Busquets hand balled from a corner kick in their PK box, so PK should have been given to Madrid.

    Ramos shot in the box hit Abidal hand, which seemed unintentional, so arguable one.

    Sanchez was onside going in alone on Casillas, but ruled offside by the ref.

    Sanchez seemed to get fouled inside the box by Pepe (it seemed Pepe made contact with him first before the ball) which could have been a PK, also arguable.

    Ronaldo expression near the end was priceless.

    Higuain had two great chances, and Ozil was a rocket from outside which nailed the post. I think its an amazing game, so far.


    And Escorp no worries I will reply to your respond and give my opinion on the question you had, but just for thoughts I'll say that it can vary from team to team and players to players. In other words some may just need midfielders in order to win games, some may just need a striker like Messi/Ronaldo, and some need both (Barcelona) as example.
     
         
    Last edited by ReLax -; 01-25-2012 at 10:59 PM.

  6. #166
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    Re: General Football Debates!

    All in all, a great match. The best El Clasico in ages! I almost died at the end because of the pressure from Benzema's equalizer.

    I don't think 2-2 was that bad for Real, although Real clearly played their best Clasico since 2-2 at SB in the Super Copa Espana, and should have won this one if they were more efficient.

    Higuain should have stayed cold, and he would have scored after only 12 sec or so, and he should also have goaled at the free kick around 3 min. It's funny to think how Barca went to the break with 2-0 as it didn't reflect the game at all in my opinion. Ronaldo's reaction was priceless, and it really reflected the frustration from the Madrid side very well. Alves shot was amazing, but it would have been child's play compared to Özil's shot, if that one had gone in. Got to be the most crazy shot I've seen since the world Cup in 2010. If it had gone in, I would say it would absolutely been nominated for the goal of the year in 2012.

    Anyways, to sum it all up, Real clearly deserved the equalizer, and with a little more efficiency and margins, they could have won this 2-6. I'll say that Real deserved to win this one, but Barca, like always, manages to come up with the draw in the games Real should win, and win in the games they deserves to win. That's the thing that differs the two sides from each other at this point if you ask me.

    Özil's shot;

     
         

  7. #167
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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Quote Originally Posted by Escorpiius View Post


    Valdes improved for sure but how much can never be said cause it's fact that he faces too less saves to make due to being at Barca. Though, both teams are on exceptional level, I'd like to see how he performed regularly with Spain in big matches. The team strength are nearly the same but I think the 'National' pressure could prove to be a test factor. I don't think that'll happen unfortunately.

    Frankly, I wonder how the aftermath will be like, in case, Barca get eliminated by a team other than Real and Madrid ends up clinching both CL and Liga; though being each defeated in Classicos. Though I see Barca as clear favorites for the CL and know that in case, they reach final, they'll win it. But still, I know that 2-leg matches are where Barca can be more vulnerable, so who knows...Unpredictable football can be unpredictable. After all, the CL is quite unpredictable this year.

    I know that point and I, too agree, on the fact that Xavi/Iniesta are the ones who make the players shine and I know most critics, stats and history support that. Whether it's the National team analysis or the individual impact on the team.

    But still, look at the other side of the coin. And it's good that you mentioned that Ronnie article which I just read cause I was coming on that. So, as the question if the other team was better or not and whatever. Well, Xavi/Iniesta were already on Rijkaard and Ronaldinho's team if I'm not wrong but why is it that such two talents never got the attention at that time. Did they get overshadowed and if so, did Messi the ones who really make them looks good.

    When you look at it, Xavi/Iniesta are lucky to be surrounded by talents. Their midfield talents are exceptional but if their wasn't proper scorers for those assists, will those talents really have been shown at their proper value. Just like Messi feel alone without his passers, wouldn't Xavi/Iniesta feel lonely if they had poor strikers to valorise their own passers. In a way, with my question, I wasn't really interested in re-knowing the fact of who flops or not in National or on who deserve Ballon D'Or more! Indirectly, what interested me in that question was the hidden question - Who's more important in victory - Midfielders or Strikers.

    While, it's a given fact that defenders and goalkeepers are the key to prevent losses, the midfield and strikers strive the path to victory in football. The 2 undeniable fate of our great game. So here am re-stating - Who's more important in leading the path to victory - Midfielders or Strikers?

    The critics seem to judge the strikers more; with the recent Ballon D'Or winners boasting more of goal scorers. Like you said, Silva make Ballotelli, Dzeko, Aguero look good. I agree. Now, put the same Silva and ask him to serve jinxed players like Andy Caroll or the 'actual' Torres. Will he shine as much?

    I'm keeping this debate question up because it's been time since we both really debated on a general question and mostly debated on results only. Let's screw the Classico for once.

    As for the part of which team were better. I really don't know. I'll be quick on his topic since that one is quite an impossible question with many views who'll vary. I'll take Maradona and Messi for example. While, with videos I've seen, I see Messi to be a better player. Still, he flops in National Team while Diego alone lead Argentina to World Cup glory and even shined in many of his clubs. Does this mean that football was easier at time or does it mean that players were more complete players and more devoted due to the lesser influence of money at that time? Frankly, I don't know.

    And just for an ending note. I like Ronaldinho more but that doesn't mean I consider him better than Messi. Messi is more efficient (which is what matters in football today) but Ronaldinho got better technical skills to me. He's also the best and most innovative dribbler I've seen. Like I said upwards, the personal awards consider goal scoring abilities too often at the expense of other talents. While recently, it's been for the midfielders, I think the original technical players have also been overshadowed many times. In those awards were to be judged in terms of technical abilities and originality, then I easily could have foresee Ronaldinho as thrice winner of Ballon D'Or years ago (and God knows how many for ZZ). Let's say the Ronaldinho/Zidane were always more of a treat to watch on the field than others in my eyes.
    Well Valdes is third to Casillas and Pepe Reina in national team (Spain). I've seen Valdes hold his own in bigger games, but of course Barcelona style favours him greatly.

    Well if Madrid manages to win, well than nothing can be said or done about it. Barcelona could best them, but if they get eliminated by someone else and Madrid win at the end they (Madrid) would be champions.

    Xavi played in Rijkaard team, but he played a long side Deco who at the time may have been better midfielder, and Inesita was only 21-22 at the time so, he played as a bench player to Xavi and Deco. Xavi was also facing a lot of injury scare back than and Rijkaard football style is different from Pep. Ronaldinho was pretty much the team, as were in Barcelona everyone shares an equal role, even Messi. Xavi came out and told everyone that he was a all talk in the start maybe even arrogant at times, but now he is a totally different person. His father (Xavi) has stated that big clubs in Europe were offering Xavi 3 times the money from Barcelona (Ie: he gets around 6 million a year, clubs actually offered 15+ million), but Xavi wanted to stay here and help Barcelona. He started his career in 1998-2000 around their and he didn't get much success from their, his first big glory was in 2006, but lets not forget he was injured quite a bit that season and in the final game. Xavi at the time was still a difference for Barcelona, when you look at it now the style of play and years of experience has benefited Xavi. Iniesta case he's only 27 now, 5-6 years back he was 21-22, Deco and Xavi were the barcelona midfielders.

    "When you look at it, Xavi/Iniesta are lucky to be surrounded by talents. Their midfield talents are exceptional but if their wasn't proper scorers for those assists"

    Lucky? Where is that luck for clubs like Milan? Madrid? United (who made it to 3 of 4 finals and winning one)? Bayern? City? That question can go either way...can't it be that the strikers are 'lucky' to be surrounded by Xavi/inesita? Look at Aguero his scoring with City is amazing, but yet he struggled to score with A. Madrid, Silva has played huge roles in almost all Aguero goals. Even Dinho played a long side Xavi, Deco, E'too, Henry, and Messi, so are we gonna say that Dinho was the main reason for Barcelona success, no one else put as much effort as him? A striker needs a midfielder, Torres golden days at A. Madrid and liverpool were amazing, but he just couldn't find that midfielder like Xavi, Iniesta, Silva, Sneijder to win those titles. How do you think Dinho would have fitted in this current Barcelona team? Dinho was a show boat, with his dribbling skills, but Dinho would have turned out like Ibra. Ibra was very talented, but he didn't fit in and had a ***** fit because Pep wanted to let Messi try main striker. The same goes with Ronaldo. Barcelona play as people call it "Tika Taka" football



    Just look at that. Can you see Ronaldinho/Ronaldo contributing like that? I'm not saying they can't, but from what we know of their characteristics it isn't their style. This is Xavi/Ineista style of play and all of Barcelona learn to play like this. Xavi has created, so many chances, but if a striker can't finish it, the fingers will point at him, Xavi contribution will still be their.











    I hope you do watch these clips as they are only a few seconds, but this shows a few of Xavi plays. You see him set up players (Villa/Henry) who don't score. You see some amazing passes, to set players up, and their a video which shows when Xavi can score he passes it instead. I ask you now do you still think that strikers make Xavi look good?

    As far as your question goes regrading flops like Carrol and Torres. I know Xavi/Inesita would create great opportunities for them, but as far as finishing it goes is on their hands, I'm sure you can agree with that. In this point I ask you the question if you were coaching, or even fan perspective, and a midfielder creates chances for your striker, but they flop, who will you point your finger at? Will you question your midfielder talent? Or the midfielder isn't goo until the striker scores?

    Sanchez/Fabregas are great players, but the amount of goals they are scoring with Barcelona they never did with their past clubs (Udinese/Arsenal) . Playing a long side Xavi/Inesita has been the difference for them.

    I don't mean to degrade Messi, but when he plays with Xavi/Ineista he shines, but when he plays with Argentina...what happens? (I have quite a bit to say bout Argentina, but that debate/arguement for some other time)

    When Xavi/Inesita play with Spain or Barcelona (when Messi is not playing) they are still shining.

    I will come to your main point now lol

    "Who's more important in leading the path to victory - Midfielders or Strikers?"

    As, I said it can vary from team to team and player to player. If we see top tier European teams clash in order for victory the team that has a solid midfield and strikers will win. A team can play a league game (Ie: Madrid VS Gatafe, Man U VS Bolton etc) even if they have just a sold striker they have the high possibility of winning, or even just a good midfield.

    Now speaking of from player to player, I mean a striker can be the main reason of certain victories, and the same can go for midfield. Xavi hasn't scored much, but how many times was he the man of the match or the big difference for Barcelona/Spain? Silva for City? Lampard for Chelsea? Messi for Barcelona? Benzema for Madrid? Ibra for Milan?

    Zidane is a midfielder, but their were many times were he has the big hand in his club/national victories (Juventus, Madrid, and France), Ronaldo (#9 Brazilian)...I don't think I need to add players like Maradona, Pele.

    This is why it varies from team to team and player to player.

    I already answered your question regrading Carrol and Torres, but I'll ask you again if Silva was performing the exact same way with City and Carrol/Torres couldn't score dispute Silva setting up nice plays, you wouldn't praise Silva plays? You wouldn't consider Silva as being a great midfielder?

    Well back in the day we can't really say how football was played all I can say is in todays day their is much more talent and threats from Clubs/National teams. Everyday we see a new Maradona, Pele, Messi, Xavi, and so on.

    I hope I did answer your question may have miss some
     
         

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    Re: General Football Debates!

    I didn't want to add this to my long post already, but this is just hilarious



    Ronaldo expression = priceless
     
         

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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Keisuke Honda is luring clubs like Arsenal, Liverpool, and United. Lazio were close to signing him for 16 million, but the window closed, so he'll be up for grabs this summer. I saw a few games of his in WC and Asia cup, and he has impressed, but lets see how well he does VS Madrid in CL his performs there will lure more clubs.

    RVP rumour of joining Barcelona this summer just keeps showing up on the news, will see if Wenger can keep RVP, or will he departure.
     
         

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    Re: General Football Debates!

    wow you guys must really like your football
     
         

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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Quote Originally Posted by uzumaki antonia View Post
    wow you guys must really like your football
    Thanks for stating the obvious.

    @ ReLax - I'm gonna reply to everything later on. (Hell I thought, you left only one post and didn't checked the thread . Will do so afterwards, promise. It's me who started the striker/midfield debate afterall.

    I'm dropping by to post my thoughts on the EPL and specially on Chelsea/Man.Utd.

    What a match it was. Sure, disappointed to so quickly lose 2 points in the race against City after merely week but then again, we made an emphatic comeback.

    What makes happier in this match is that it's been hell some time since United really made a proper comeback in a big match that they were losing. Lost terribly against City and Newcastle without reacting, eliminated in CL, eliminated in both English cups barely. All that in silent display.

    An analysis over the match:

    Well, with a calm start to the match in the first minutes, both teams observed as United first two real actions should have been awarded a penalty. especially for the Welbeck who was scissored from the back but Howard Webb remained scandalously silent. The match went into another dead moments as United seemed affected to unjustifiably denied these penalties. And over an somniferous defense, Stturidge dribbled Evra and poor Evans put it as an own goal.

    A harsh first half results as United was the better side who should have leading at 1st half but fate and referee wanted it otherwise. And what was harsh was Chelsea finally playing at their best level between the 45-55 minute. This ensued a quick superb goal of Mata with a volley from a cross from Torres. Another huge blow was David Luiz deflected header which made it 3-0.

    United seemed devastated and I feared the worst because as I said above, this wasn't the season where United as famous for being reacting after suffering.But as Evra and Welbeck both earned 2 penalties and Rooney struck both of them superbly, hope was kinda back. After much chances for both sides (with Torres missing a golden chance again ), United ended its comeback with a shot of Rooney blocked by Cech but a Giggs ensued a perfect cross to Chicharito who gave it its all to put it in.

    Oh yeah, De Gea made 2 superb saves at the end to keep United hard-fought draw intact. He's better when it comes to make harder saves than easier ones.

    Conclusion 1. Point-wise, this is a result that is bad for both Chelsea and United.

    Conclusion 2. This draw from United could prove to be important at the end of the season because for once, it showed that United still has some kind of burning desire in them when all odds are stacked against them. So who knows. All detractors may be proved wrong again...

    Conclusion 3. I wonder if Torres someday will score. An advice: He should come out of scoring retirement like Henry/Scholes I 'd hard when a crap commentator said that "It's sad to see Torres like that; given that he's one of the 5 Best strikers in the World" , 5 Best :rofl:

    As for the other results:

    Arsenal clinched a fantastic 7-1 win over Blackburn. 3 goals and 2 assists form RVP. Right now, if you remove Messi and Ronaldo given that they were not strikers at the start of their careers, RVP must be the best finisher in the world.

    City gained an easy 3-0 win over Fulham who proposed no arguments except not being from frozen in the snow of Etihad Stadium. Given the state of the field at around the 60th minute, I'm not sure that match will have been played if it was scheduled an hour late.

    Big Liverpool v/s Tottenham match tomorrow but I'll applause United today sincerely cause they did fight till the end. Sure, they should have win it from the 1st half itself but then again, it deserves full praise for their 3-3 from a 3-0 score.
     
         
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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Quote Originally Posted by ReLax - View Post
    Xavi played in Rijkaard team, but he played a long side Deco who at the time may have been better midfielder, and Inesita was only 21-22 at the time so, he played as a bench player to Xavi and Deco. Xavi was also facing a lot of injury scare back than and Rijkaard football style is different from Pep. Ronaldinho was pretty much the team, as were in Barcelona everyone shares an equal role, even Messi. Xavi came out and told everyone that he was a all talk in the start maybe even arrogant at times, but now he is a totally different person. His father (Xavi) has stated that big clubs in Europe were offering Xavi 3 times the money from Barcelona (Ie: he gets around 6 million a year, clubs actually offered 15+ million), but Xavi wanted to stay here and help Barcelona. He started his career in 1998-2000 around their and he didn't get much success from their, his first big glory was in 2006, but lets not forget he was injured quite a bit that season and in the final game. Xavi at the time was still a difference for Barcelona, when you look at it now the style of play and years of experience has benefited Xavi. Iniesta case he's only 27 now, 5-6 years back he was 21-22, Deco and Xavi were the barcelona midfielders.

    "When you look at it, Xavi/Iniesta are lucky to be surrounded by talents. Their midfield talents are exceptional but if their wasn't proper scorers for those assists"

    Lucky? Where is that luck for clubs like Milan? Madrid? United (who made it to 3 of 4 finals and winning one)? Bayern? City? That question can go either way...can't it be that the strikers are 'lucky' to be surrounded by Xavi/inesita? Look at Aguero his scoring with City is amazing, but yet he struggled to score with A. Madrid, Silva has played huge roles in almost all Aguero goals. Even Dinho played a long side Xavi, Deco, E'too, Henry, and Messi, so are we gonna say that Dinho was the main reason for Barcelona success, no one else put as much effort as him? A striker needs a midfielder, Torres golden days at A. Madrid and liverpool were amazing, but he just couldn't find that midfielder like Xavi, Iniesta, Silva, Sneijder to win those titles. How do you think Dinho would have fitted in this current Barcelona team? Dinho was a show boat, with his dribbling skills, but Dinho would have turned out like Ibra. Ibra was very talented, but he didn't fit in and had a ***** fit because Pep wanted to let Messi try main striker. The same goes with Ronaldo. Barcelona play as people call it "Tika Taka" football



    Just look at that. Can you see Ronaldinho/Ronaldo contributing like that? I'm not saying they can't, but from what we know of their characteristics it isn't their style. This is Xavi/Ineista style of play and all of Barcelona learn to play like this. Xavi has created, so many chances, but if a striker can't finish it, the fingers will point at him, Xavi contribution will still be their.











    I hope you do watch these clips as they are only a few seconds, but this shows a few of Xavi plays. You see him set up players (Villa/Henry) who don't score. You see some amazing passes, to set players up, and their a video which shows when Xavi can score he passes it instead. I ask you now do you still think that strikers make Xavi look good?

    As far as your question goes regrading flops like Carrol and Torres. I know Xavi/Inesita would create great opportunities for them, but as far as finishing it goes is on their hands, I'm sure you can agree with that. In this point I ask you the question if you were coaching, or even fan perspective, and a midfielder creates chances for your striker, but they flop, who will you point your finger at? Will you question your midfielder talent? Or the midfielder isn't goo until the striker scores?

    Sanchez/Fabregas are great players, but the amount of goals they are scoring with Barcelona they never did with their past clubs (Udinese/Arsenal) . Playing a long side Xavi/Inesita has been the difference for them.

    I don't mean to degrade Messi, but when he plays with Xavi/Ineista he shines, but when he plays with Argentina...what happens? (I have quite a bit to say bout Argentina, but that debate/arguement for some other time)

    When Xavi/Inesita play with Spain or Barcelona (when Messi is not playing) they are still shining.

    I will come to your main point now lol

    "Who's more important in leading the path to victory - Midfielders or Strikers?"

    As, I said it can vary from team to team and player to player. If we see top tier European teams clash in order for victory the team that has a solid midfield and strikers will win. A team can play a league game (Ie: Madrid VS Gatafe, Man U VS Bolton etc) even if they have just a sold striker they have the high possibility of winning, or even just a good midfield.

    Now speaking of from player to player, I mean a striker can be the main reason of certain victories, and the same can go for midfield. Xavi hasn't scored much, but how many times was he the man of the match or the big difference for Barcelona/Spain? Silva for City? Lampard for Chelsea? Messi for Barcelona? Benzema for Madrid? Ibra for Milan?

    Zidane is a midfielder, but their were many times were he has the big hand in his club/national victories (Juventus, Madrid, and France), Ronaldo (#9 Brazilian)...I don't think I need to add players like Maradona, Pele.

    This is why it varies from team to team and player to player.

    I already answered your question regrading Carrol and Torres, but I'll ask you again if Silva was performing the exact same way with City and Carrol/Torres couldn't score dispute Silva setting up nice plays, you wouldn't praise Silva plays? You wouldn't consider Silva as being a great midfielder?

    Well back in the day we can't really say how football was played all I can say is in todays day their is much more talent and threats from Clubs/National teams. Everyday we see a new Maradona, Pele, Messi, Xavi, and so on.

    I hope I did answer your question may have miss some
    Quote Originally Posted by ReLax - View Post
    I didn't want to add this to my long post already, but this is just hilarious



    Ronaldo expression = priceless


    I'd like to disclaim one thing first - I'm also more with your ideal that midfielders provide a little more in a team but since it's debate, we need to look to both angles and thus, I'll defend the striker's case. In that way, we'll hopefully get a full-view on this thing. And sorry for the very late reply.

    Well, after I read your post, there are notable points that hit me!

    1. Your first point on the evolution of midfielders.

    2. This debate indeed varies from team to team and player to player.

    3. Who is the "finger pointed at?"

    First point first, while I agree that Iniesta and Xavi got much much better since their initial days! Clearly, their transformation and experience helped them but also, the lack of competition and adaptation also helped. This lead me to state that strikers and midfielders are pretty much opposed.

    A midfielder get better with experience and adaptation with its teammates and strikers. That is, that their 20s to 25 aren't really their golden days. On the other hand, it's mostly the contrary for strikers whose golden days are between age 20 and 28. Obviously, this doesn't connect with my question of who leads to victory but if I were to twist this question to "Who among these two leads to victory more often?" Perhaps, the case could tilt more for the strikers.

    I'll agree completely that for most teams, the situation vary but yet, we need to get a majority. Also, you've been a bit harsh with your analysis in the paragraph where you argued over the "luck" factor. Aguero did helped A.Madrid a lot and hissed them quite often. Even the lack of good midfielders, he shined as much as he could. Silva isn't the only reason of his success either. Torres did had a Gerrard at the peak of his art during his golden "Liverpool" days.

    You say Messi shines because of Xavi/Iniesta and Xavi/Iniesta proves it by shining also in Spain without Messi. Granted. But let's say if Barca needs more victories - what will be more influential in this path? Will another two players like Iniesta/Xavi help more or another two players like Messi?

    At last at whom is the finger pointed at?

    Well, with the vids you showed me, it's true that Xavi shines through. But then again, if the striker scored on those passes, the midfielder will have gotten much more value. In football, goals and victories matter and if it's all good skills from midfielders without proper strikers, it can get pointless on a long run.

    Let me answer this question.

    I already answered your question regrading Carrol and Torres, but I'll ask you again if Silva was performing the exact same way with City and Carrol/Torres couldn't score dispute Silva setting up nice plays, you wouldn't praise Silva plays? You wouldn't consider Silva as being a great midfielder?
    Well, I'd say that I'll consider Silver as good midfielder for constantly setting as nice play. But I wouldn't have consider him as exceptional midfielder because his good set-up didn't led to what is more important (goals) and didn't led what's more memorable at the end of referee's whistle (victories)!

    By scoring, an action gets more memorable, that's a fact. And that's a striker's job. You showed me, vids where the midfielders gave offerings and golden chances for strikers to shine but there are also many goals where even if the pass was great - credits goes to striker because:

    1. It was not an easy goal.
    2. If he didn't scored it, nobody/very few will have remembered that pass.

    Like





    Also, just like to further give any indication, strikers at times, do score on their own. At times, they themselves can play midfielders' role. I'm not talking about individual rush and dribbles goal (even skilled midfielders like Ronnie/ZZ ect...) can do that. I'm more stating about the combine play of strikers - like the last goal of Pedro you showed. Messi and Pedor are strikers but despite that, they combined scoring, passing skills to balance the lack of midfield support at that time.

    Midfielders' role are to link up play. Scoring is an optional task.

    Strikers' role is to score goals but in tandem, there role is also to provide efficient linking up to another.

    This is just to state that strikers are not always orphan of lack of midfield and further state that the importance of midfielders or strikers depends more on a team tactic.





    The above vids show 2 strikers - Rooney/Ronaldo counter goals that shows both link-up plays and scoring abilities.


    Quote Originally Posted by ReLax - View Post
    Keisuke Honda is luring clubs like Arsenal, Liverpool, and United. Lazio were close to signing him for 16 million, but the window closed, so he'll be up for grabs this summer. I saw a few games of his in WC and Asia cup, and he has impressed, but lets see how well he does VS Madrid in CL his performs there will lure more clubs.

    RVP rumour of joining Barcelona this summer just keeps showing up on the news, will see if Wenger can keep RVP, or will he departure.


    Indeed. He's great but I think his Japanese teammate - Kagawa is also very good and better soon.

    http://bit.ly/yPfgMS

    Btw, the tiki-taka football is called 'Cucumber play' here.
     
         

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    Re: General Football Debates!

    *drum beats*
    La Liga was decided tonight, 10 points is just too much. Now what, Barca?
    Oh, and it's actually a shorter way down to Valencia than up to Madrid, so they better watch their backs as well.
    I'll leave the analysis to Relax and Escorps
     
         

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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael92 View Post
    *drum beats*
    La Liga was decided tonight, 10 points is just too much. Now what, Barca?
    Oh, and it's actually a shorter way down to Valencia than up to Madrid, so they better watch their backs as well.
    I'll leave the analysis to Relax and Escorps
    Well, I'll try give a global analysis to all the recent results and news.

    Liga

    10 Points ahead is definitely a big lead. Even if Barca win the Classico, it still needs Madrid to drop point thrice. That's sound pretty tight situation. Even if Madrid did, I see Barca to lose more points in this Liga to be frank. Pep had a poor lineup Saturday and that was basically the source of all problems. It's not always good to be overconfident on your status and youngsters and not always good to do an excessive turn-over only because CL is nearing. With the CL resuming, they are going to do more of those turnover presumably and that's perhaps a decision that equivalent to bid farewell to la Liga.

    As for Madrid's match. First of all, hats of to Ronaldo for that spectacular shot. I saw only the highlights (I went to sleep after seeing some minutes of CAN's final) but that shot was brilliant and at a crucial stage. Still, there's one thing that worries me at Madrid and that's the constant habit to conceded the opening goal. While, presumably this won't alter anything now in the Liga, it's a different case in the CL. Every single goal is crucial in a CL Knockout match especially in those 2-Leg match and that's worrying for a team who needs to win that CL and for a coach who was brought for that trophy.

    If I were to re-establish some cards over the two favorites to the CL - Madrid and Barca; I'd say the vexed and vengeful Barca is perhaps better armed for this CL than Madrid.

    Leaving ReLax to to add his points on his turn; supposing that he did watch Madrid's match to the contrary of me.

    EPL

    ManU clinched a crucial and decisive victory over Liverpool on Saturday - A match that was illuminated by Rooney and centered on Suarez for its vile actions. For a recap, in their previous EPL encounter, Suarez did racial abuse over Evra and was handed a 8-match ban for this action. This match marked his return as starter.

    It started with another disgrace of Suarez who refused to shake hands with Evra that heated this encounter immediately. Ferdinand and Welbeck at their turn refused to shake Suarez's hand. What followed was a very tight match with both teams gaining almost an equal amounts of chances but with United dominating possession. Then ensued the 45th minute, where on a counter, Suarez dribbled Evra as last defender but Ferdinand saved United from a good tackle from behind. The Uruguayan estimated it was a foul and got furious and even kicked the ball towards United's staff. This created a brawl in the tunnel during half-time.

    Instigated over the actions, United came with more anger and more offensive will. And in minutes, Rooney destroyed Liverpool. First, with a volley on a corner and the second by slicing it past Reina; thanks to a good pressure/pass from Valencia. Suarez scored a consolation goal for Liverpool but another action that was more marking was his attempt at a given point to shoot the ball in Evra's direction. And to end this match in further turmoil; Evra did an excessive celebration all around the field and in front of Suarez.

    The post-match wasn't something calm either. SAF said that Suarez doesn't even deserved to play for LFC while Kenny did come into the post-match conference but later defended his striker despite his vile actions. Later on, Suarez made an apology on Liverpool' site and United accepted it. All-in-all, lots of melodrama rather than a simple match but even if I want to close this case, I must say that what Suarez did was despicable.

    Coming on City's match. Well, they won to keep United at bay at the second place. It was tight match in defense but Aston Villa was extremely poor in offense; so it was a logical win. City has much tougher schedule in those 13 remaining match than United but they are having their squad at the full again; so it's going to be a tough battle.

    Chelsea is being pathetic right now and I don't see Villa-Boas to remain at the head of Blues till the end of season. They lost 2-0. Tottenham keep consolidating their pace and solid 3rd place thank to an impressive 5-0 win - thanks mostly to 4 assists and a goal of Adebayor - over Newcastle (who was 5th btw). Arsenal won a nail-biting match against Sunderland and one that'll remain nostalgic. They were led by 1-0 against Sunderland after Mertersacker injured himself on a simple control but Ramsey equalized before like old times, Henry saved the Gunners in injury time with a goal. Arsenal are now at level with Chelsea for the 4th place.

    Besides, the Suarez news, the other news that shook the English football was Fabio Capello resigning at the England's post. Frankly, I completely understand Capello's position and agree it was all FA's fault if England is now without captain and without coach; months before Euro. Redknaap is the favorite to clinch this post; though he won't have much time for preparation since he decided to end his season with Tottenham. I'm not confident for England though at Euro - not that Redknaap is a bad coach but Capello was a good coach and both don't make much difference but this affair will make a negative moral difference in England's squad and that's not good.

    Cup of African's Nation Final

    Zambia has won the Cup over a devastated Drogba and Ivory Coast team at the term of a nail-biting penalty shootout. Drogba missed a penalty at the 68th minute which will remain an eternal regret for a player whose dream was to win something with his National team. His last chance may have passed.

    The match ended on a poor 0-0 but what ensued was a nail-biting shootouts. After all initial 5 shooters scored, both Kalaba and K.Toure missed their penalties before Gervinho wasted the next one and Stopilla Sunzu was merciful as he won it for Zambia.

    Both teams vied this trophy importantly. Over the recent crisis in Ivory Coast, this Ivory team had perhaps its last chance to grab a trophy with the best generation they had. While for Zambia, it was a must-win competition for a team whose squad suffered a tragic plane crash in 1993. But there could only one winner and all celebration were for Zambia and all despair for Ivory Coast. Ghana - pitted as the favorites at the start - lost their match for 3rd place against Mali 2-0 btw.
     
         

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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael92 View Post
    *drum beats*
    La Liga was decided tonight, 10 points is just too much. Now what, Barca?
    Oh, and it's actually a shorter way down to Valencia than up to Madrid, so they better watch their backs as well.
    I'll leave the analysis to Relax and Escorps
    LOL hell yeah, that's what happen if iniesta and xavi is not in the line up for starting eleven,

    PS: nice review from Escorpiius
     
         

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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Quote Originally Posted by Escorpiius View Post
    Well, I'll try give a global analysis to all the recent results and news.

    Liga

    10 Points ahead is definitely a big lead. Even if Barca win the Classico, it still needs Madrid to drop point thrice. That's sound pretty tight situation. Even if Madrid did, I see Barca to lose more points in this Liga to be frank. Pep had a poor lineup Saturday and that was basically the source of all problems. It's not always good to be overconfident on your status and youngsters and not always good to do an excessive turn-over only because CL is nearing. With the CL resuming, they are going to do more of those turnover presumably and that's perhaps a decision that equivalent to bid farewell to la Liga.

    As for Madrid's match. First of all, hats of to Ronaldo for that spectacular shot. I saw only the highlights (I went to sleep after seeing some minutes of CAN's final) but that shot was brilliant and at a crucial stage. Still, there's one thing that worries me at Madrid and that's the constant habit to conceded the opening goal. While, presumably this won't alter anything now in the Liga, it's a different case in the CL. Every single goal is crucial in a CL Knockout match especially in those 2-Leg match and that's worrying for a team who needs to win that CL and for a coach who was brought for that trophy.

    If I were to re-establish some cards over the two favorites to the CL - Madrid and Barca; I'd say the vexed and vengeful Barca is perhaps better armed for this CL than Madrid.

    Leaving ReLax to to add his points on his turn; supposing that he did watch Madrid's match to the contrary of me.

    I said analysis, not full review O_____________O
    But I pretty much agree with you on all points. I too worry a little on Madrid conceding too many goals in the league, however, the case seems to be entirely different in CL, whereas Madrid only have conceded 2 goals so far.
    I think the major factor for this is the "level" of the opposite team. Madrid seems to get goals against them "easily-er" when facing weaker opponents, but then again they always score a bunch of goals too (2-6 against Sevilla, 6-2 against Getafe, 4-2 against Levante, etc).

    As for Barca, it seems to me like Pep had already given up the League even before facing Osasuna with that starting eleven, and with Xavi and Iniesta on the bench, without substituting them. The next match for them will be crucial, and a match they more or less have to win. Even if they are at Camp Nou, miracles have happened before. They are facing Valencia, and if Valencia can achieve a miracles win, they will only be 5 points behind Barca; a lead that might become troublesome for Barca for the rest of the season. If everything goes wrong, they might even drop down to 3rd by the end of the season. So all eyes on Barca - Valencia next round. It will be very decisive indeed.
     
         
    Last edited by Michael92; 02-13-2012 at 08:25 PM.

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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael92 View Post
    I said analysis, not full review O_____________O
    But I pretty much agree with you on all points. I too worry a little on Madrid conceding too many goals in the league, however, the case seems to be entirely different in CL, whereas Madrid only have conceded 2 goals so far.
    I think the major factor for this is the "level" of the opposite team. Madrid seems to get goals against them "easily-er" when facing weaker opponents, but then again they always score a bunch of goals too (2-6 against Sevilla, 6-2 against Getafe, 4-2 against Levante, etc).

    As for Barca, it seems to me like Pep had already given up the League even before facing Osasuna with that starting eleven, and with Xavi and Iniesta on the bench, without substituting them. The next match for them will be crucial, and a match they more or less have to win. Even if they are at Camp Nou, miracles have happened before. They are facing Valencia, and if Valencia can achieve a miracles win, they will only be 5 points behind Barca; a lead that might become troublesome for Barca for the rest of the season. If everything goes wrong, they might even drop down to 3rd by the end of the season. So all eyes on Barca - Valencia next round. It will be very decisive indeed.
    Believe me, it was a short one Though the United paragraph got extended a bit too much

    Perhaps, they conceded few goals in the CL but then again, those were only 6 matches and in group stages moreover. In a knockout stages, this could be more different. And what worrying is not the amount of goals they concede, but it's always conceding an opener. I've seen so many matches in CL where openers been the key as most defenses close up. Besides, the teams are much more determined to clinch on a goal in CL. One, being the importance and prestige of this competition and the other is the financial profit that goes along with this Champions League [this is a good article].

    I don't see Barca dropping to third frankly. Even if they did, I'm sure, ultimately they end up second. But first place seems really tight right now. Their objective is the CL now and I'm sure of that. The real question is whether Mou can risk it all and try win both titles. Ironically, the last glimmer of hope for Barca to win the Liga may be in Mourinho's hand.
     
         

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    Re: General Football Debates!

    Quote Originally Posted by Escorpiius View Post
    Believe me, it was a short one Though the United paragraph got extended a bit too much

    Perhaps, they conceded few goals in the CL but then again, those were only 6 matches and in group stages moreover. In a knockout stages, this could be more different. And what worrying is not the amount of goals they concede, but it's always conceding an opener. I've seen so many matches in CL where openers been the key as most defenses close up. Besides, the teams are much more determined to clinch on a goal in CL. One, being the importance and prestige of this competition and the other is the financial profit that goes along with this Champions League [this is a good article].

    I don't see Barca dropping to third frankly. Even if they did, I'm sure, ultimately they end up second. But first place seems really tight right now. Their objective is the CL now and I'm sure of that. The real question is whether Mou can risk it all and try win both titles. Ironically, the last glimmer of hope for Barca to win the Liga may be in Mourinho's hand.
    Only time will tell... I guess
     
         

  19. #179
    Més que un club ReLax -'s Avatar
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    Re: General Football Debates!

    I'll say this, its not always the case that a midfielder is behind a victory, but neither are strikers.

    Some examples, Xavi and Messi set up both goals VS Madrid in the 2-1 victory and both were scored by their defenders.

    At the end it's a shared task to lead to victory. They have their own responsibility and if you can complete the task great, and some of 'optional' tasks as you've stated. It's not always the midfield or strikers who carry to victory their are times when defense or GK come up big (eg: Puyol goal in the WC VS Paraguay). In a season a striker can have a big influence in majority of the wins, or in a tourment, and the same can go for midfielders (Sneijder as example to 2009/2010). Their is a reason why Xavi/Inesita have been in the ballon d'or top 5 along with Messi and Ronaldo in the past 3 years.

    I know Kun was a huge part in Athletico, but my main point I meant to get out was what did he accomplish there? If he had midfielders like Xavi/Inesita, how would he look than? Or what would he have accomplished?

    You say Messi shines because of Xavi/Iniesta and Xavi/Iniesta proves it by shining also in Spain without Messi. Granted. But let's say if Barca needs more victories - what will be more influential in this path? Will another two players like Iniesta/Xavi help more or another two players like Messi?
    This question can vary, but IMO at the moment they would need strikers simply due to the fact Villa is injured, Sanchez is more of a winger not a CS, and Pedro is in and out of injuries, but their have also been times where they need midfield more than strikers, so it varies. This can go with many other clubs also.





    Also, just like to further give any indication, strikers at times, do score on their own. At times, they themselves can play midfielders' role. I'm not talking about individual rush and dribbles goal (even skilled midfielders like Ronnie/ZZ ect...) can do that. I'm more stating about the combine play of strikers - like the last goal of Pedro you showed. Messi and Pedor are strikers but despite that, they combined scoring, passing skills to balance the lack of midfield support at that time.

    Midfielders' role are to link up play. Scoring is an optional task.

    Strikers' role is to score goals but in tandem, there role is also to provide efficient linking up to another.

    This is just to state that strikers are not always orphan of lack of midfield and further state that the importance of midfielders or strikers depends more on a team tactic.
    The vids should already have answered your question were as midfielder can do the same and play as strikers. As you've stated strikers set up another striker and midfield set up another midfield. This can vary in many ways. At the end who ever has the best chance they go for it, if a defender is wide open and at the opposing end he can also put the ball in or even set up a striker/midfielder.





    Two solo goals scored by two midfielders, so they can also score solo, but the fact remains scoring is not necessary for them. Lets not forget Iniesita plays as a midfielder, but many times for Spain he has played as striker/winger.

    In conclusion there have been many games played were a striker was a big influence in a victory, but so were midfield and at times both have been exceptionally well (Eg: United VS Barcelona in 2009 and 2011, Barcelona midfield and strikers played well, which led them to victory and lets not forget the beating Madrid got 5-0).

    Well, I'll try give a global analysis to all the recent results and news.

    Liga

    10 Points ahead is definitely a big lead. Even if Barca win the Classico, it still needs Madrid to drop point thrice. That's sound pretty tight situation. Even if Madrid did, I see Barca to lose more points in this Liga to be frank. Pep had a poor lineup Saturday and that was basically the source of all problems. It's not always good to be overconfident on your status and youngsters and not always good to do an excessive turn-over only because CL is nearing. With the CL resuming, they are going to do more of those turnover presumably and that's perhaps a decision that equivalent to bid farewell to la Liga.

    As for Madrid's match. First of all, hats of to Ronaldo for that spectacular shot. I saw only the highlights (I went to sleep after seeing some minutes of CAN's final) but that shot was brilliant and at a crucial stage. Still, there's one thing that worries me at Madrid and that's the constant habit to conceded the opening goal. While, presumably this won't alter anything now in the Liga, it's a different case in the CL. Every single goal is crucial in a CL Knockout match especially in those 2-Leg match and that's worrying for a team who needs to win that CL and for a coach who was brought for that trophy.

    If I were to re-establish some cards over the two favorites to the CL - Madrid and Barca; I'd say the vexed and vengeful Barca is perhaps better armed for this CL than Madrid.

    Leaving ReLax to to add his points on his turn; supposing that he did watch Madrid's match to the contrary of me.

    EPL

    ManU clinched a crucial and decisive victory over Liverpool on Saturday - A match that was illuminated by Rooney and centered on Suarez for its vile actions. For a recap, in their previous EPL encounter, Suarez did racial abuse over Evra and was handed a 8-match ban for this action. This match marked his return as starter.

    It started with another disgrace of Suarez who refused to shake hands with Evra that heated this encounter immediately. Ferdinand and Welbeck at their turn refused to shake Suarez's hand. What followed was a very tight match with both teams gaining almost an equal amounts of chances but with United dominating possession. Then ensued the 45th minute, where on a counter, Suarez dribbled Evra as last defender but Ferdinand saved United from a good tackle from behind. The Uruguayan estimated it was a foul and got furious and even kicked the ball towards United's staff. This created a brawl in the tunnel during half-time.

    Instigated over the actions, United came with more anger and more offensive will. And in minutes, Rooney destroyed Liverpool. First, with a volley on a corner and the second by slicing it past Reina; thanks to a good pressure/pass from Valencia. Suarez scored a consolation goal for Liverpool but another action that was more marking was his attempt at a given point to shoot the ball in Evra's direction. And to end this match in further turmoil; Evra did an excessive celebration all around the field and in front of Suarez.

    The post-match wasn't something calm either. SAF said that Suarez doesn't even deserved to play for LFC while Kenny did come into the post-match conference but later defended his striker despite his vile actions. Later on, Suarez made an apology on Liverpool' site and United accepted it. All-in-all, lots of melodrama rather than a simple match but even if I want to close this case, I must say that what Suarez did was despicable.

    Coming on City's match. Well, they won to keep United at bay at the second place. It was tight match in defense but Aston Villa was extremely poor in offense; so it was a logical win. City has much tougher schedule in those 13 remaining match than United but they are having their squad at the full again; so it's going to be a tough battle.

    Chelsea is being pathetic right now and I don't see Villa-Boas to remain at the head of Blues till the end of season. They lost 2-0. Tottenham keep consolidating their pace and solid 3rd place thank to an impressive 5-0 win - thanks mostly to 4 assists and a goal of Adebayor - over Newcastle (who was 5th btw). Arsenal won a nail-biting match against Sunderland and one that'll remain nostalgic. They were led by 1-0 against Sunderland after Mertersacker injured himself on a simple control but Ramsey equalized before like old times, Henry saved the Gunners in injury time with a goal. Arsenal are now at level with Chelsea for the 4th place.

    Besides, the Suarez news, the other news that shook the English football was Fabio Capello resigning at the England's post. Frankly, I completely understand Capello's position and agree it was all FA's fault if England is now without captain and without coach; months before Euro. Redknaap is the favorite to clinch this post; though he won't have much time for preparation since he decided to end his season with Tottenham. I'm not confident for England though at Euro - not that Redknaap is a bad coach but Capello was a good coach and both don't make much difference but this affair will make a negative moral difference in England's squad and that's not good.

    Cup of African's Nation Final

    Zambia has won the Cup over a devastated Drogba and Ivory Coast team at the term of a nail-biting penalty shootout. Drogba missed a penalty at the 68th minute which will remain an eternal regret for a player whose dream was to win something with his National team. His last chance may have passed.

    The match ended on a poor 0-0 but what ensued was a nail-biting shootouts. After all initial 5 shooters scored, both Kalaba and K.Toure missed their penalties before Gervinho wasted the next one and Stopilla Sunzu was merciful as he won it for Zambia.

    Both teams vied this trophy importantly. Over the recent crisis in Ivory Coast, this Ivory team had perhaps its last chance to grab a trophy with the best generation they had. While for Zambia, it was a must-win competition for a team whose squad suffered a tragic plane crash in 1993. But there could only one winner and all celebration were for Zambia and all despair for Ivory Coast. Ghana - pitted as the favorites at the start - lost their match for 3rd place against Mali 2-0 btw.
    Well Barcelona have a long way to climb, and in order for them to clinch La Liga they can't lose a game from here to the end and hope for Madrid to draw, or lose some to close the distance or take the lead, but honestly speaking I can't see that.

    As the game goes it has been consistency with Madrid giving up the first goal, lets not for get the first goal was scored and another goal when Levante was down to 10 man, also this Levante side has the oldest players, so it wasn't too bad, but something Madrid should think about.

    As far as CL go Madrid have had great ran along with Napoli, and Arsenal. Barcelona, Milan, Inter, Munich, and Chelsea are going up and down ATM, but anything is possible and the German league is quite interesting ATM also.

    I want to speak about this entire thing surrounding Suarez/Evra and so forth.

    I think FA was harsh and made the decision to quick. We can say that Evra in the past has made false accuistion, as far as I know no body knew what was being said expect for Evra and Suarez, and I doubt Suarez English is that good, or it was said in Spanish and as we know sometimes translating words into English seem to come out wrong.

    Before I begin I don't mean offense to anyone, so forgive me if anyone does find this offensive.

    Suarez indicated that he didn't racially abuse Evra, but indeed he said the term 'Negro' to him, which means black in Spanish last I heard black wasn't a racist word unless some said something a long the line. "you 'b' SOB."

    "The word “Negro” is used in the English-speaking world to refer to a person of black ancestry or appearance, whether of African descent or not. The word negro means 'black' in Spanish and Portuguese, from the Latin niger, 'black', probably from a Proto-Indo-European root *nekw-, 'to be dark', akin to *nokw- 'night'."

    So, Suarez admitted (he spoke the truth) for using that term, unlike some in the past who deny it. In South America it is a common word, but Suarez stated he didn't mean it in a racially way, which for obvious reason some people think (mainly Man U fans).

    Suarez should have first been given some courtesy for speaking the truth at least, but at the end all they had were Evra word and the second Suarez admitted using the word, but not in a racially way, case closed.

    The word is perfectly acceptable on it's own. It's harmless and it's ludicrous to think otherwise. In today society the word has died down as many 'black' think it is racist. In context, if the intention is to use it as a racial slur, then that would be a different situation, as Evra is trying to state it being said. The past has not been to well for poor old Evra here crying wolf.

    These are names of some places...

    United Negro College Fund

    NCNW, the National Council of Negro Women, Inc

    NLBPA, the Negro League Baseball Players Association

    As Evra states he said he racially abused him, but Suarez denied the claim. Ibra punched a guy 1-2 weeks a go 3 match ban, Rooney kicked a guy 2 match ban, Pepe stepped on Messi hand nothing, and Suarez gets a 8 match ban, which the offender word was taken on. Harsh or not?



    Evra clearly provoked the incident. I'm not saying Suarez was not at fault, but notice how Evra puts his hand out to others, but Suarez comes his hand is lowered like he was expecting Suarez to put his hand out. It could be simply a misunderstanding from both after a heated a few months espeically Suarez facing a 8 match ban, which he believes was for the wrong reason. Evra reaction was a bit overboard despite him being captain, and he should have ignored it. The way he pointed at the camera was just stupid. Ferdinand reaction was no better, it was as disgusting. Suarez would have been given the bad name alone, but in my books these two were not better than Suarez.

    In Suarez point of view he is now known as a racist to the 'black' community. In today society majority of the time the 'blacks' cry wolf to racism.

    SaF the respect I have for him, but he also tries to provoke things. In a interview he labelled Suarez as a disgrace to LFC, but his players reaction was no better, he included saying LFC should sell Suarez. I remember where Schmeichel dropped the 'N' bomb Wright , but yet he remained with United. That being said if Suarez was with United and the incident happen I doubt they would have done anything Sadly Rooney even handled the situation better than SaF.
     
         

  20. #180
    Més que un club ReLax -'s Avatar
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    Re: General Football Debates!

    CL:

    Barcelona VS Leverkusen --- 3-1

    Sanchez put in two goals and they were respectively set up by Messi and Fabregas.

    Messi scored, which was set up by Alves, but all the work started from Messi and than he cashed in to make it 7 goals in 6 games in UEFA and has 4 assists to go with that.
     
         

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