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  1. #21
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    Re: Altruism...Does it exist ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Escorpiius View Post
    Exactly, it's not the driving force but it's a force/factor in the whole action and this minor influence disrupts the perfect altruism and complete selflessness.

    But does something like be prayed for/loved really go into someone's decision to sacrifice their own life? Or is it more of a tag along? If its a tag along then it really didn't play a role in the decision. So the actual decision was selfless, even though some benefit may have resulted from it.
     
         

  2. #22
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    Re: Altruism...Does it exist ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Typhon View Post
    But does something like be prayed for/loved really go into someone's decision to sacrifice their own life? Or is it more of a tag along? If its a tag along then it really didn't play a role in the decision. So the actual decision was selfless, even though some benefit may have resulted from it.
    I'd say that Praise and Love is something that just comes as a bonus...So yeah, its not the determining factor for the act.

    Although, humanity is selfish by nature ( IMO), it would be very rare to find someone going out of their way to do something, they don't have to, without thinking of the possible benifits.
     
         

  3. #23
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    Re: Altruism...Does it exist ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Typhon View Post
    But does something like be prayed for/loved really go into someone's decision to sacrifice their own life? Or is it more of a tag along? If its a tag along then it really didn't play a role in the decision. So the actual decision was selfless, even though some benefit may have resulted from it.
    Nope, many people actually take into accounts the aftermaths of their actions and obviously, this affects your decision. Some persons value Godly gratitude more than social gratitude. In their eyes, prayers, love, appreciation are more precious. And desiring something that you consider precious is in fact, the essence of selfishness.

    You're in army - you're still driven by so many emotions like martyr wants, after-death glory, country service ect... Though they are all posthumous benefits, they remain benefits that makes decisions selfish. It's the thought of the benefit that makes an action selfish not the gain of it.

    There are so many examples like that - being a corruption fighter, being someone who wants to repent of his deeds, being someone who believes that sacrifice opens the door of heaven ect...

    (Wow, I feel myself like a poet right now. I'm delivering so many philosophical notions )
     
         

  4. #24
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    Re: Altruism...Does it exist ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Escorpiius View Post
    Nope. First of all, it's 98% certain that if you're sacrificing your life for someone, then you gotta have some connection with the person - whether it's rather meeting, bonds, family ties, religion connection or forced to do it as duty.

    As for the other 2%, where you're doing it as random act, then 1% of your action is not without selfishness as you're doing it under emotions' impulse - whether it's under anger, want to be famous, want to end your life as a hero, want acknowledgement ect... You are considering your benefits in this action which doesn't make it selfless.

    As for the last 1%, you're not saving the person for the person's sake without expecting anything in return. You're still supported by vague beliefs like destiny, heaven and other Godly action.

    It's a noble action but not a selfless one as you consider some benefits of yours whether in this world or the outer world or do it because of selfish or forced emotions, not pure ones.

    In a way, true altruism can be attained if there's pure emotions...But is there? I don't think so.
    So what if it was the perfect situation, it was a homeless person saving another homeless person from being killed by a robber who knew he wouldn't get famous, he did it because he felt he did what the right thing to do in that situation was. And he was an atheist?
     
         

  5. #25
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    Re: Altruism...Does it exist ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Escorpiius View Post
    Nope, many people actually take into accounts the aftermaths of their actions and obviously, this affects your decision. Some persons value Godly gratitude more than social gratitude. In their eyes, prayers, love, appreciation are more precious. And desiring something that you consider precious is in fact, the essence of selfishness.

    You're in army - you're still driven by so many emotions like martyr wants, after-death glory, country service ect... Though they are all posthumous benefits, they remain benefits that makes decisions selfish. It's the thought of the benefit that makes an action selfish not the gain of it.

    There are so many examples like that - being a corruption fighter, being someone who wants to repent of his deeds, being someone who believes that sacrifice opens the door of heaven ect...

    (Wow, I feel myself like a poet right now. I'm delivering so many philosophical notions )

    That's all assuming the person carrying out the act believes in God.

    But I see what you're saying. I suppose if you look at it from a psychological view point it could be considered selfish. I'm looking at it from a biological/evolutionary view point and from there the feeling of self gratification really isn't a benefit because it doesn't increase fitness. You're increasing someone else's fitness while hurting your own. So from that view point it really is a truly altruistic action.
     
         

  6. #26
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    Re: Altruism...Does it exist ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Escorpiius View Post
    It's close but not complete selflessness.

    Suppose a car is rushing towards an old woman and the instant reaction, a person gets is to jump to the reaction. But for every reaction, you gotta have been impulsed under atleast one emotion or many.

    To the most exceptional case, that person didn't considered any of his direct benefits or risks and jumped to the rescue but there's gotta be some emotion in that place. Why you feel that you need to save that old woman's life?

    The most noble answer is that she deserves to live but in that case, are you not selfish of not considering the other party. You decided to save her under some anger impulsion because you felt that the car was in fault and going to do an injustice but is that not a selfish action of directly considering the car as guilty?

    You're being neutral in your mindset which freezes selflessness but you're not neutral with your emotions and that makes you a bit selfish. It's impossible for a human to control both his reflexion and emotion. As I said in my other other, though most selfish action comes from sick thought, it's when pure emotions is developed that true altruism will attain but that's not the case.
    How can you be sure that emotions are really involved? Being instantaneous, I believe there is something else there, like how you stop before going down the cliff towards an almost certain death. Might it not be intelligence, saying that(not really having this monologue but ) 'someone is in danger of getting hurt or even killed, saving her would spare her that'.
    Isn't there the possibility of intelligence acting upon it and not emotion? That way there would be no 'me FEELING the need to save her'. I do not believe intelligence to be selfish, because

    Sure, there has to be a challenge, a happening, for a reaction to be seen, but I do believe there are cases, if going by the impulses you mention in your fourth paragraph were, instead of accusing the car, seeing how it might not be intentional(maybe there was an animal being avoided resulting in this poor woman's situation) and not viewing it as 'at fault' at all, it all being unfortunate(figuratively speaking).
    In the case you mention about accusing the car and there being emotions involved, yes that is selfish, but is all emotion selfish? Are all emotion concentrically spinning around the 'me'?

    I'd say emotions is mostly conditioned to the challenge proposed, relative to the past experience and memory about similar events or preconceptions of such events. Thus remains the question whether these pure emotions you speak about are possible or not. I say, don't control your feelings, and controlling reflexes seems almost impossible, but in the case of controlling as a means to an end, I think it only imposes dullness and hinders intelligence, as control implies friction between you and the thing being controlled. Waste of energy more or less, in many cases. In all, does control not create more selfishness? More of 'me'?
     
         

  7. #27
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    Re: Altruism...Does it exist ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonfly X View Post
    So what if it was the perfect situation, it was a homeless person saving another homeless person from being killed by a robber who knew he wouldn't get famous, he did it because he felt he did what the right thing to do in that situation was. And he was an atheist?
    In all honesty, if i was the Homeless man saving the other, i would be satisfied saving another mans life. It may not be what i initially think about but being a homeless person ( Therefore having nothing ) i would at least want to do die with dignity/ do something dignifying.
     
         

  8. #28
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    Re: Altruism...Does it exist ?

    But, interesting thread, and too many people take psychology, smarter than me...*grumble grumble grumble*
     
         

  9. #29
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    Re: Altruism...Does it exist ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonfly X View Post
    But, interesting thread, and too many people take psychology, smarter than me...*grumble grumble grumble*
    My class must have wasted an entire lesson debating this...We got nowhere.
     
         

  10. #30
    ( ಠ‿ಠ)/ <- Guilty UchihaBrat's Avatar
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    Re: Altruism...Does it exist ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonfly X View Post
    But, interesting thread, and too many people take psychology, smarter than me...*grumble grumble grumble*
    Psychology may not have much more to do with it than being what we think it does. Sure we are discussing while accounting for the psychological part, but isn't that because we see psychology in it? There might be other things involved.
     
         

  11. #31
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    Re: Altruism...Does it exist ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonfly X View Post
    So what if it was the perfect situation, it was a homeless person saving another homeless person from being killed by a robber who knew he wouldn't get famous, he did it because he felt he did what the right thing to do in that situation was. And he was an atheist?
    It's far from a perfect situation. You are driven from many types of emotion, the most notable being the bond with that person - a bond of sympathy as they are both homeless and many will get the feeling that saving that person's life is normal because this case could recurrent to himself on an other day. So, in a way, you're considering about your own future.

    It can't be a reflex action since he actually considered that he wasn't going to be famous moreover. Thus, he actually thought of his benefits first, even if he disregard the lack of benefits to save that person then, it still does matter that he was under emotions' impulse and did have a selfish thought at a point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Typhon View Post
    That's all assuming the person carrying out the act believes in God.

    But I see what you're saying. I suppose if you look at it from a psychological view point it could be considered selfish. I'm looking at it from a biological/evolutionary view point and from there the feeling of self gratification really isn't a benefit because it doesn't increase fitness. You're increasing someone else's fitness while hurting your own. So from that view point it really is a truly altruistic action.
    Love and Appreciation aren't all God-related.

    I agree that in an evolutionary system, feelings benefits don't count but the fact is that human are not bind by only evolutionary system, no matter how hard they convince themselves. They are concerned with many other things where emotions do influence their actions.

    Quote Originally Posted by UchihaBrat View Post
    How can you be sure that emotions are really involved? Being instantaneous, I believe there is something else there, like how you stop before going down the cliff towards an almost certain death. Might it not be intelligence, saying that(not really having this monologue but ) 'someone is in danger of getting hurt or even killed, saving her would spare her that'.
    Isn't there the possibility of intelligence acting upon it and not emotion? That way there would be no 'me FEELING the need to save her'. I do not believe intelligence to be selfish, because

    Sure, there has to be a challenge, a happening, for a reaction to be seen, but I do believe there are cases, if going by the impulses you mention in your fourth paragraph were, instead of accusing the car, seeing how it might not be intentional(maybe there was an animal being avoided resulting in this poor woman's situation) and not viewing it as 'at fault' at all, it all being unfortunate(figuratively speaking).
    In the case you mention about accusing the car and there being emotions involved, yes that is selfish, but is all emotion selfish? Are all emotion concentrically spinning around the 'me'?

    I'd say emotions is mostly conditioned to the challenge proposed, relative to the past experience and memory about similar events or preconceptions of such events. Thus remains the question whether these pure emotions you speak about are possible or not. I say, don't control your feelings, and controlling reflexes seems almost impossible, but in the case of controlling as a means to an end, I think it only imposes dullness and hinders intelligence, as control implies friction between you and the thing being controlled. Waste of energy more or less, in many cases. In all, does control not create more selfishness? More of 'me'?
    'Someone is in danger of getting hurt or even killed, saving her would spare her that'. - Are you sure this part does not conceal any type of selfishness or atleast conceal any beneficial thoughts? I'm sure there is, think about it. I already stated it above, think of it again.

    I do believe all emotions lead to reactions that spin around derivatives of negativity and interest. So, in way, there's some touches of selfishness.

    You say - "Don't control your feelings as this will give rise to reflex reactions which in a way comes without emotions." Tell me a case where someone developed absolutely no feelings then.
     
         
    Last edited by Escorpiius; 10-23-2011 at 08:38 PM.

  12. #32
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    Re: Altruism...Does it exist ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Abysmal. View Post
    My class must have wasted an entire lesson debating this...We got nowhere.
    Because the answer is no.

    The day, humans become robots, true altruism might be achieved. Perhaps, with cloning...

    But, normal humans and complete altruism = Impossible in my point of view.
     
         

  13. #33
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    Re: Altruism...Does it exist ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Escorpiius View Post
    Because the answer is no.

    The day, humans become robots, true altruism might be achieved. Perhaps, with cloning...

    But, normal humans and complete altruism = Impossible in my point of view.
    My teacher made us realise that through frustration.

    I couldn't agree more, i came to that conclusion when the debate came to an end.
     
         

  14. #34
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    Re: Altruism...Does it exist ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Escorpiius View Post
    'Someone is in danger of getting hurt or even killed, saving her would spare her that'. - Are you sure this part does not conceal any type of selfishness or atleast conceal any beneficial thoughts? I'm sure there is, think about it. I already stated it above, think of it again.

    I do believe all emotions lead to reactions that spin around derivatives of negativity and interest. So, in way, there's some touches of selfishness.

    You say - "Don't control your feelings as this will give rise to reflex reactions which in a way comes without emotions." Tell me a case where someone developed absolutely no feelings then.
    It may be because of my crappy monologue, or you misunderstanding it, but the point is that, if it's intelligence acting, then it isn't selfish, since intelligence is when selfishness and thought is not. The monologue was purely representative of intelligence and may, as I said, be crappy, but as logical reasoning, the lady might get hurt without saving, and intelligence, which is closely related to care, tells you to save her! Is care and intelligence selfish? I think not.

    Emotions probably lead to such reactions, are they concentric around 'me', which means there is selfishness present. But then, are those emotions not tainted and distorted by 'me'? If the emotions were completely unrelated to 'me', then they wouldn't lead there, if lead anywhere at all.

    I'm sorry, but I'm not sure what you mean by the last paragraph, could you elaborate 'reflex reactions' and their relation to the control of your feelings for me please? And also how you interpreted what you were answering with that paragraph.
     
         

  15. #35
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    Re: Altruism...Does it exist ?

    The only act that you can truly say is altruism is giving charity, but you don't know where it is going and the person who receives it.

    Any good deed makes a person feel good about themselves, if you categorize that as nullifying altruism then there is no true altruism, otherwise there could be situations where someone does a true selfless deed.
     
         

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    Re: Altruism...Does it exist ?

    I don't believe that's part of human nature.
     
         

  17. #37
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    Re: Altruism...Does it exist ?

    NO there isnt!

    Even if the deed is really really ''good'' you do it because you wanna do a good deed so you would feel good

    giving to charity ... makes you feel good to help (example)
     
         

  18. #38
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    Re: Altruism...Does it exist ?

    I remember vaguely that we talked about this in philosophy class and my treacher proved that true altruism is impossible or invalid or whatever.

    But going by the comments i think some people are confusing altruism with egoism?
     
         

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