[Theory] Madara and Tobi comparisons and differences: reasons why tobi is and is NOT madara

[NarutoVsGoku]

edit edit: i just wanted to thank everyone who thanked this thread and gave me +reps. in a matter of a few days i got a whole new bar. over 100+ reps. btw people i now this thread is very long and there are some very lengthy posts but if you are reading this for the first time or just coming back the best part of this thread is in the end where i pwn some noobs who were trying to flame this thread for apparently no reason at all...

Anyone whos been reading my comments in threads about tobis identity know that i am a strong believer that tobi is nobody but madara. Even with the past 3 chapters basically disproving this i still think if tobi is anybody, madara is still the best possibility.

Comparisons and reasons to believe tobi is madara:

Nagato:
What both tobi and madara said about nagato. Tobi planned nagato to use the reviving jutsu for his purposes. Madara was revived and instantly assumed nagato to have used his reviving powers.

Rinnegan:
Both tobi and madara have rinnegans. Madara gained it before his death. Tobi took his from nagato, who he claimed that he was only taking back what was originally his.

Kyuubi:
Both tobi and madara have controlled and tamed kyuubi. Through the use of sharingan eye. Only people who have controlled/tamed kyuubi are madara, tobi, hadhirama and i guess you can include naruto. But you need either a sharingan or wood release. But even with a sharingan and wood release not just anybody can control kyuubi. Tobi and madara are the only ones to have ever controlled kyuubi and use him to attack the village. Hashirama was able to tame kyuubi and other tailed beasts and its implied because of his wood release but yamato with wood release can barely control naruto with 4tails cloak mode (plus yamato said that since naruto broke the 1st hokage crystal its impossible for him to restrain him now).

But my point is that both and only tobi and madara have controlled kyuubi with their doujutsus. Itachi said madara was the only one to do so. And craziest thing is that kyuubi instantly recognized tobis chakra just like he instantly recognized edo madara.

Witnesses:
Itachi, pain, konan, kisame, minato and kyuubi all gave witness that tobi is or most likely is madara. This is something i can never get over. You cant deny the account of kyuubi, or minato whos first and only guess to who tobi was was madara. Or pain and konan who were working closely with tobi. Or kisame who saw his face and recognized it was madara. Or itachi who said he knew
Madara was still alive and searched for him.

Wood release/hashirama cells:
Both tobi and evidently madara have hashirama cells. Tobi has it cuz hes capatable with replacing limbs to what seems like to be hashirama or zetsu parts. Tobi can use inazagi which takes sharingan and wood release to do. Madara can use wood release and kabuto knows madara took hashiramas powers (dna?)

Everything tobi has said has been proven true by other characters:
What tobi said about sage proven by jiraiya. What he said about uchiha massacre was proven by itachi and danzo. Everything he said about hashirama basically proven by kakashi, orochimaru etc. And now kabuto and madara are proving what tobi said about madara. Tobi said madara survived the fight agaisnt hashirama even though he lost. He also said madara gained hashiramas cells and that he gave nagato the rinnegan. Kabuto and madara are verifying these things to be very possible and true.

Well all these things point to the conclusion that tobi is madara but obviously theres more to it.

Even though evidently madara is the best posibility he also is not based on the last 3 chapters.

1. Madara is revived. Wtf. I shouldnt have to explain how edo tensi works abd the whole soul thing
2. With the dialogue in the past chapters its being hinted that tobi aka "the masked man" used madaras name and reputation to gain attention and start the war

Just like how fugaku, izuna and obito all died and were shown dead and this proves they are not tobi. I cant deny madara being alive proves that he died so its impossible for him to be tobi also. (kagami is dead too. The 2 elders said they are the last 2 from their generations, which means danzo, hiruzen and yes kagami and everyone else of 3rd sarutobis generation are dead. Besides kagami is an irrevelant character. Iruka is more important than him.)

And You have to take into account of the dialogue of the chapters saying tobi impersonated madara for reputation.

But theres ways around it. Despite the recent chapters the evidence of madara being tobi outwieghs the possibility of him not. Tobi can be a product of inazagi, splitting, or a combination of hashirama cells and madaras will, memories, chakra or a piece of his soul. Those are just theories.

You have to take into account that tobi and madara are very closely alike not based on appearance (which alot of dumb people have based their theories on) but based on knowledge, power And actions. Nobody, no other uchiha would have had the knowledge tobi had except madara because madara had ems and rinnegan and able to decifer the tablets and madara has witnessed the leaf foundation. Tobi had this knowledge through madaras point of view so my theory is........

That in the future it will be explained that tobi is still somehow madara. It will be another plot twist that defies edo tensi.

Btw i dont buy into tobi being a zetsu clone cuz we dont even fully know anything about zetsu (where is he from? Why split personalities? Is he even human? Age? Etc) Besides zetsu can clone a person down to the chakra but zetsu cant copy someones memories, knowledge, experience etc. Tobi had knowledge, memories and experiences of madara.

[Tyrelh]

It feels like tobi is guy from V For Vendetta.

[Hipster Madara]

Wow that was good
+ rep

[ninjastormgenaration33]

Thats a lot of typing

[welshfan2k11]

wow u gone into alot of detail, must of took forever 2 do but you do make a very good case, we just have 2 wait and see 2 find out

[zombiejesus]

i disagree but it is very compelling ***** for all your hard work

[EternalMangekyouRinnegan]

One problem. If Tobi is Madara then Madara wouldn't say "our plan". It would be Madara's plan from the start. He would say "my plan". After all, Tobi is just Madara's creation, why would he share credit with him? He said " our plan" as if Tobi is real person and they are partners in this.

And why do you avoided the possibility of Elder Son? You have mentioned everyone besides him, when he has the biggest motive, knowledge and power to actually be Tobi.
Tobi has incredible space/time jutsus and Madara doesn't. What's the logic behind this?

[|KirA|]

in the last manga kabuto said the masked man eventually isnt fullfilling madaras plan as he wishes, if he was madara, why should madara worry him not to fullfill his own wishes

[Roofy128]

madara ems wasnt that good but then he used rinnegan and with both ems and rinnegan he is OP but just ems he was a disappointment
it says something about sasuke ems and that he isnt gonna be that strong

[wonderwho]

really good theory...

[Sharingan Itachi]

The reasons given by you can be clues for two things and two things alone which are: either tobi is madara which was proven wrong or that tobi is a man who's very close to madara and whom madara had revealed his secrets and his plans to him. ***** for hard work

[Narubro]

i feel the exact same way... if you look at my threads you'll see i said he was a clone.

[Floydical]

Great post, *****. But how can you believe Tobi is still Madara without believing in the Zetsu clone theory? Yes Zetsu can't copy kekkei genkai and likely can't copy stuff like memories and personalities, but who's to say Madara wasn't able to do this in one clone in particular? Maybe tobi's half black and half white Zetsu who was infused with a portion of Madara's chakra and his will (but not his soul). I honestly think that after taking in these characteristics, Tobi not only became a psuedo Madara, but also took on human characteristics, like skin, over his Zetsu form.

[leon8chicken]

madara ems wasnt that good but then he used rinnegan and with both ems and rinnegan he is OP but just ems he was a disappointment
it says something about sasuke ems and that he isnt gonna be that strong

Are you crazy? It took 2 kages and Naruto to get him vulnerable for RasenShuriken. If he's anything like Tobi then he probably could have used Izanagi or something. The thing is he didn't need to with Rinnegan.

Now he's just backed a whole fleet into a corner with his overpoweredness. Sasuke with his MS could probably take on one Kage. Sasuke was getting raped by Oniko, and that hot breath woman. Tobi had to save him.

We didn't see all of Madaras eye powers, only Sasuno.

[Hawker]

wow, nothing less from you man...this should be made a sticky thread as I would ASSUME! that every noob who thinks otherwise would read it and stop babbling nonsense in manga discussion area <-- and that would be my dream, that one day every noob would just stop, and be reasonable and logical..I guess that's too much to ask.. :/

but yeah alone the witness part is enough to prove Tobi is Madara...but if that isn't enough to noobs then the Kyuubi taming part should be obvious

Also one thing that you didn't mention..Tsuchikage heard Tobi's voice and he would obviously said something if he would've thought it didn't belong to Madara. Since he has heard Madara speaking so he knows what he sounds like. But yeah I guess that was Kagami's or Fugakus voice lol.

[Roofy128]

Are you crazy? It took 2 kages and Naruto to get him vulnerable for RasenShuriken. If he's anything like Tobi then he probably could have used Izanagi or something. The thing is he didn't need to with Rinnegan.

Now he's just backed a whole fleet into a corner with his overpoweredness. Sasuke with his MS could probably take on one Kage. Sasuke was getting raped by Oniko, and that hot breath woman. Tobi had to save him.

We didn't see all of Madaras eye powers, only Sasuno.

i didnt say he was shit but without the rinnegan he was gone
tell me u dont disagree with this?

[chimbroma]

really nice points .....but why doesn't edo madara have space/time jutsu

[Roofy128]

really nice points .....but why doesn't edo madara have space/time jutsu

we dont know if he hasnt

[leon8chicken]

i didnt say he was shit but without the rinnegan he was gone
tell me u dont disagree with this?

We don't really know if he was gone or not. Tobi has space time Ninjutsu and Izanagi. Edo Madara could have used Izanagi or something and sacrificed an eye or something. All i'm saying is we never saw him use his Mangekyou powers only sasuno. amaterasu or anything. I personally think he may have had a way to survive but it would be a lot riskier than Rinnegan.

[EternalMangekyouRinnegan]

Great post, *****. But how can you believe Tobi is still Madara without believing in the Zetsu clone theory? Yes Zetsu can't copy kekkei genkai and likely can't copy stuff like memories and personalities, but who's to say Madara wasn't able to do this in one clone in particular? Maybe tobi's half black and half white Zetsu who was infused with a portion of Madara's chakra and his will (but not his soul). I honestly think that after taking in these characteristics, Tobi not only became a psuedo Madara, but also took on human characteristics, like skin, over his Zetsu form.

This why he can't be Madara clone, zetsu or whatsover.

Zetsu does not copy persons mind or their memory.

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v57/c540/7.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v57/c540/9.html
Zetsu Neji failed to fool Sakura when he thought TonTon was a human. Zetsu clones retain their own mind.

They only copy appearance and chakra. They are not as good as original, even if they have their chakra and they can perform all their jutsus.

Madara, nor Zetsu doesn't have any of Tobi's Space/Time abilities.

One problem. If Tobi is Madara then Madara wouldn't say "our plan". It would be Madara's plan from the start. He would say "my plan". After all, Tobi is just Madara's creation, why would he share credit with him? He said " our plan" as if Tobi is real person and they are partners in this.

And why do you avoided the possibility of Elder Son? You have mentioned everyone besides him, when he has the biggest motive, knowledge and power to actually be Tobi.
Tobi has incredible space/time jutsus and Madara doesn't. What's the logic behind this?

[DigitalMonster]

Who says an Uchiha can attain Space-Time Ninjutsu without any of manga's establishment of being known to master it?

[Roofy128]

We don't really know if he was gone or not. Tobi has space time Ninjutsu and Izanagi. Edo Madara could have used Izanagi or something and sacrificed an eye or something. All i'm saying is we never saw him use his Mangekyou powers only sasuno. amaterasu or anything. I personally think he may have had a way to survive but it would be a lot riskier than Rinnegan.

nice
i didnt think about that yeah he probably couldnt survived another way

[NarutoVsGoku]

It feels like tobi is guy from V For Vendetta.

great comparison. Tobi is exactly that! Except not in a good guy kind of way

Thats a lot of typing

Thank you for pointing out the obvious lol

wow u gone into alot of detail, must of took forever 2 do but you do make a very good case, we just have 2 wait and see 2 find out

Actually ive been saying this a million times in other threads and i decided to just put it all out there. The words just flowed it was dat hard.

I cant wait to see also

i disagree but it is very compelling ***** for all your hard work

If you disagree feel free to give your reasons why. I dont mind and actually love to hear why you disagree

One problem. If Tobi is Madara then Madara wouldn't say "our plan". It would be Madara's plan from the start. He would say "my plan". After all, Tobi is just Madara's creation, why would he share credit with him? He said " our plan" as if Tobi is real person and they are partners in this.

And why do you avoided the possibility of Elder Son? You have mentioned everyone besides him, when he has the biggest motive, knowledge and power to actually be Tobi.
Tobi has incredible space/time jutsus and Madara doesn't. What's the logic behind this?

i completely forgot about elder son but there a reason why i guess. I already stated that tobi had knowledge and experience that only madara would have. Elder son did not lead the uchiha, elder son did not have izuna as a brother, he did not fight hashirama and lose and live and steal his dna.

Also nobody gave witness that tobi was elder son. Nobody. But many many people gave witness that tobi was madara.

For those facts alone makes tobi being elder son very unlikely. Elder son would not have a motive for attacking the leaf. But madara tobi attacking the leaf is logical and makes sense. Thats another reason why tobi isnt elder son.

N on ya first paragraph idk where to start.

Tobi and edo madara may be from the same tree but they are 2 different entities. Its like fat buu and evil buu from dragonball z. Or a naruto clone argueing with another naruto clone despite them being the same person (example the recent naruto filler about naruto clones). So of course edo madara will say "our" and "his" amd kabuto says "your" or whatever.

Tobi is madara creation and why would madara share credit with him? Why wouldnt he? Why not? That question just reminds me of that naruto clones filler where the clones were demanding respect from the original naruto.

"they are partners" im glad you mentioned that cuz in this thread i was originally gunna touch base on this possibility but i wrote so much about tobi being madara i didnt know where or how to fit it in and i didnt feel like typing anymore. But obviously amd evidentlyadara and tobi are partners. Just look at the dialogue. Madara says "our" and kabuto says im on "your" side. When he said "your" i immediatly thought that this was a plural your and kabuto meant he was on the side of madara and tobi. Other languages have plural and singular words for "your" but In english we dont have a singular and plural word for "your" (unless you consider "yall" which is slang for you all) but i would need the original japanese scans and a translator to verify if kabuto meant a plural "your" referring to madara and tobi.

Thats why i didnt mention it cuz its just too much.

in the last manga kabuto said the masked man eventually isnt fullfilling madaras plan as he wishes, if he was madara, why should madara worry him not to fullfill his own wishes

Cuz edo madara and tobi madara are the same but different. Like naruto and evil naruto from the lake. Or naruto and a naruto clone. Or fat majin buu and evil buu from dragonball z. Or kid trunks and future trunks from dbz. Or majin buu and oob from dbz. Or mew and mewtwo from pokemon. Or yu-gi and yu-gi-oh pharoah from yu-gi-oh. Etc etc etc etc

[Floydical]

This why he can't be Madara clone, zetsu or whatsover.

Yawn. Again you focus on something I said that I clearly assessed from both ways. I stated that it is likely Zetsu couldn't copy memories (I remembered it somewhere in the manga but couldn't confirm it so I left is a LIKELY, but you just confirmed it). But like I said, despite that fact, I think Zetsu #1 took on characteristics of Madara in another way. Don't act as if Tobi being a Madara-Zetsu hybrid is a confirmed impossibility....especially when you use your own quotes as proof LOL.

As for Madara saying 'our plan' why is that so hard to believe? Tobi and Madara have been in kahoots for a number of decades. Why is it so hard to believe that Madara considers him a separate being at this point? It just makes so much sense that Tobi is a lesser form of Madara.. seriously.

[Cyborg]

Anyone whos been reading my comments in threads about tobis identity know that i am a strong believer that tobi is nobody but madara. Even with the past 3 chapters basically disproving this i still think if tobi is anybody, madara is still the best possibility.

Comparisons and reasons to believe tobi is madara:

Nagato:
What both tobi and madara said about nagato. Tobi planned nagato to use the reviving jutsu for his purposes. Madara was revived and instantly assumed nagato to have used his reviving powers.

Rinnegan:
Both tobi and madara have rinnegans. Madara gained it before his death. Tobi took his from nagato, who he claimed that he was only taking back what was originally his.

Kyuubi:
Both tobi and madara have controlled and tamed kyuubi. Through the use of sharingan eye. Only people who have controlled/tamed kyuubi are madara, tobi, hadhirama and i guess you can include naruto. But you need either a sharingan or wood release. But even with a sharingan and wood release not just anybody can control kyuubi. Tobi and madara are the only ones to have ever controlled kyuubi and use him to attack the village. Hashirama was able to tame kyuubi and other tailed beasts and its implied because of his wood release but yamato with wood release can barely control naruto with 4tails cloak mode (plus yamato said that since naruto broke the 1st hokage crystal its impossible for him to restrain him now).

But my point is that both and only tobi and madara have controlled kyuubi with their doujutsus. Itachi said madara was the only one to do so. And craziest thing is that kyuubi instantly recognized tobis chakra just like he instantly recognized edo madara.

Witnesses:
Itachi, pain, konan, kisame, minato and kyuubi all gave witness that tobi is or most likely is madara. This is something i can never get over. You cant deny the account of kyuubi, or minato whos first and only guess to who tobi was was madara. Or pain and konan who were working closely with tobi. Or kisame who saw his face and recognized it was madara. Or itachi who said he knew
Madara was still alive and searched for him.

Wood release/hashirama cells:
Both tobi and evidently madara have hashirama cells. Tobi has it cuz hes capatable with replacing limbs to what seems like to be hashirama or zetsu parts. Tobi can use inazagi which takes sharingan and wood release to do. Madara can use wood release and kabuto knows madara took hashiramas powers (dna?)

Everything tobi has said has been proven true by other characters:
What tobi said about sage proven by jiraiya. What he said about uchiha massacre was proven by itachi and danzo. Everything he said about hashirama basically proven by kakashi, orochimaru etc. And now kabuto and madara are proving what tobi said about madara. Tobi said madara survived the fight agaisnt hashirama even though he lost. He also said madara gained hashiramas cells and that he gave nagato the rinnegan. Kabuto and madara are verifying these things to be very possible and true.

Well all these things point to the conclusion that tobi is madara but obviously theres more to it.

Even though evidently madara is the best posibility he also is not based on the last 3 chapters.

1. Madara is revived. Wtf. I shouldnt have to explain how edo tensi works abd the whole soul thing
2. With the dialogue in the past chapters its being hinted that tobi aka "the masked man" used madaras name and reputation to gain attention and start the war

Just like how fugaku, izuna and obito all died and were shown dead and this proves they are not tobi. I cant deny madara being alive proves that he died so its impossible for him to be tobi also. (kagami is dead too. The 2 elders said they are the last 2 from their generations, which means danzo, hiruzen and yes kagami and everyone else of 3rd sarutobis generation are dead. Besides kagami is an irrevelant character. Iruka is more important than him.)

And You have to take into account of the dialogue of the chapters saying tobi impersonated madara for reputation.

But theres ways around it. Despite the recent chapters the evidence of madara being tobi outwieghs the possibility of him not. Tobi can be a product of inazagi, splitting, or a combination of hashirama cells and madaras will, memories, chakra or a piece of his soul. Those are just theories.

You have to take into account that tobi and madara are very closely alike not based on appearance (which alot of dumb people have based their theories on) but based on knowledge, power And actions. Nobody, no other uchiha would have had the knowledge tobi had except madara because madara had ems and rinnegan and able to decifer the tablets and madara has witnessed the leaf foundation. Tobi had this knowledge through madaras point of view so my theory is........

That in the future it will be explained that tobi is still somehow madara. It will be another plot twist that defies edo tensi.

Btw i dont buy into tobi being a zetsu clone cuz we dont even fully know anything about zetsu (where is he from? Why split personalities? Is he even human? Age? Etc) Besides zetsu can clone a person down to the chakra but zetsu cant copy someones memories, knowledge, experience etc. Tobi had knowledge, memories and experiences of madara.

Ok, 1st of all i made this thread JUST for you:
http://www.narutobase.net/forums/sho...d.php?t=114688
Unfortunately, some of the simple minded and 2 faced noobs who said, duh, ofc he is'nt madara !! are now agreeing with you in this thread because of their sorry lack of intellect. Anyways lol onto my disagreements:
Madara knowing about Nagato does'nt prove anything. It only shows that there is a connection between the 2 characters, Tobi and Madara. That i don't deny, as Tobi said he was the one who gave Nagato the rinnegan, not Madara. Its possible that Madara gave his rinnegan eyes to Tobi before his death (the connection between Tobi and Madara, while beyond dispute, is still vague), Tobi may have been to the hidden rain village and have known about an uzumaki who lived there.....don't say it happened waaayy late. The latest manga chapter shows that Madara did'nt die at the valley of the end.....the senju cells could have helped him live for a long time, up until the time Nagato was around. So there's no mystery there.

The rinnegan is/was known to other people as well, how else did Jiraiya immediately recognize it when he saw Nagato's eyes? Its the ultimate occular jutsu, so Tobi or anyone else who can would want to attain it.

The kyuubi can be controlled by anyone who possesses the power of Hashirama(senju cells probly) and has sharingan or the 'power of the uchiha' if you like. Tobi just needed those 2 things, which he does have. And if Tobi is so honest as you claim, he said this thing himself, and potentially Danzo may have been able to tame the 9 tails as well. And while Itachi did say that only Madara had done it, he also said Madara is Tobi and that was a flaw. He clearly did'nt know of the real Madara being dead, or at any rate was definitely deceived by Tobi. Another proof that Madara was'nt the only one: the Sage of the 6 paths controlled all tailed beasts initially, hell he created them. And the 1st hokage and Naruto we know have controlled the 9 tails, its not impossible for a tough ninja to do so(Tobi is that, i'll concede).

None of those witnesses ever saw the real Madara. Why...? Because if they did their reactions to seeing Tobi's face would have been different. So there was no real way for them to compare it to the real deal to see if tobi was a fake or not. Tobi was the head of akatsuki, the members like Kisame and Itachi very likely took his word at face value. But we the readers know better. We know he lied about the 9 tails attack being a natural disaster to Sasuke, and he has almost definitely lied about his own identity as well. So there's really no way for you to assert that 'everything Tobi has said was proved true...' thats just not the case and i believe you know this fact.

And if Tobi is just the result of some technique, then which tech is that...? Give me an example from the manga which shows that izanagi can create another version of a person, not a clone which dies with the original but a whole different conscious...? Seriously, boy this is not playing out the way you're imagining it. And you keep saying Fugaku, Izuna etc were all shown dead but so too was Madara in the same way and this is emphatically proven by the fact that he's been resurrected yet you keep saying he's Tobi...? Why? Why is madara, who died more likely to be tobi than Izuna who died, or fugaku who died etc. While Izuna, Fugaku and Kagami were NOT revived by edo tensei, many lesser ninjas(asuma, zabuza etc) were. And Madara was revived. So he is , by rights and facts clearly the least likely candidate to be Tobi. What is likely is that the real Madara is connected to Tobi, that they have met and hashed out a joint agenda/plan. That does'nt make them the same person.

The knowledege of Tobi is due to the fact that he met Madara after the fight at the valley of the end which Madara survived, Madara directed him to form Akatsuki and gave him the info on the uchiha, their history and all the knowledge on the tablet which he had read. He also very likely told him about the senju + uchiha power= control of kyuubi trick....

In conclusion,how can you ignore the statements of Madara from the last 2 chapters...? Or Kabuto, who calls Tobi the fake Madara? Madara himself says you know of our plan, not my plan which is what he should say if Tobi is just his long lost other half. Anyways, thats impossible in any case as its already shown that a soul that is not in the pure world(Madara being Tobi means his soul is in the impurel, i.e this world) cannot be brought back.

Hope this gets across.

And though i disagree, props for your efforts.