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  1. #26
    Invincible Immortal EternalMangekyouRinnegan's Avatar
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    Re: Madara and Tobi comparisons and differences: reasons why tobi is and is NOT madar

    Quote Originally Posted by NarutoVsGoku View Post
    i completely forgot about elder son but there a reason why i guess. I already stated that tobi had knowledge and experience that only madara would have. Elder son did not lead the uchiha, elder son did not have izuna as a brother, he did not fight hashirama and lose and live and steal his dna.
    What knowledge and expierence are you talking about? They were working together, obviosly Tobi knows alot about Madara. Is that a big secret that Madara had brother from whoem he later obtained EMS? Is that a secret that Madara lead Uchiha? Is that a big secret that Madara fought Hashirama? Even Itachi knew all this sh1t and he's not even from that time.

    Quote Originally Posted by NarutoVsGoku View Post

    Also nobody gave witness that tobi was elder son. Nobody. But many many people gave witness that tobi was madara.

    For those facts alone makes tobi being elder son very unlikely. Elder son would not have a motive for attacking the leaf. But madara tobi attacking the leaf is logical and makes sense. Thats another reason why tobi isnt elder son.
    How would anyone give witness about elder son if noone even knows sage had sons? At best Madara and Nagato could have found out about this because they had rinnegan and it could have been written in stone monument.
    How did Kabuto/Oro found out about this is still a mystery. Even Madara was shocked that someone like Kabuto who's not even able to read Uchiha stone monument knows about the secrets of Madara's body etc.

    , the reason why he was acting as Madara was already given in manga, why do you avoid it?
    and obviosly Tobi attacked leaf with a reason, it was either to obtain kyuubi or to fram uchiha, perhaps even do both. Tobi hasn't done a single thing without a reason. Everything goes according to his plan.

    Quote Originally Posted by NarutoVsGoku View Post
    When he said "your" i immediatly thought that this was a plural your and kabuto meant he was on the side of madara and tobi. Other languages have plural and singular words for "your" but In english we dont have a singular and plural word for "your" (unless you consider "yall" which is slang for you all) but i would need the original japanese scans and a translator to verify if kabuto meant a plural "your" referring to madara and tobi.
    Why do you avoid what he said in the next sentence? He was doubting Tobi, that's why he specificly said he's on Madara's said and not on Tobi's. Kabuto wants Madara as an ally.

    Quote Originally Posted by NarutoVsGoku View Post
    Tobi and edo madara may be from the same tree but they are 2 different entities. Its like fat buu and evil buu from dragonball z. Or a naruto clone argueing with another naruto clone despite them being the same person (example the recent naruto filler about naruto clones). So of course edo madara will say "our" and "his" amd kabuto says "your" or whatever.

    Tobi is madara creation and why would madara share credit with him? Why wouldnt he? Why not? That question just reminds me of that naruto clones filler where the clones were demanding respect from the original naruto.
    Im sorry but that's all is just a wishful thinking, too much of it, afaik.
    It is Madara's plan and none other one's, especially not some clone's. How do you share such a genius, sinister plan with some clone of yours who's only purpose was to do your erands? This doesn't make sense to me..

    Not only that but it turns out his clone was so cool that he developed incredible s/t jutsu unseen to this world. He even doublecrossed himself and is now more powerful than original himself (s/t + rinnegan = invincible). This doesn't sound silly to you at all?

    Why do you cling to Tobi being Madara so much? Drop your Madara theory and for a sec think about it from a neutral standpoint. Analyze everything and then tell me if you still think that Tobi is Madara.

    This is how I did it :

    When the last chapter came out I was happy because it destroyed all the retarded Shisui/Obito/Izuna(it's not him for obvious reasons) theories.

    But than I realised that there's a high chance it's not the Elder son, rather it's some Madara's apprentice or a clone/creation of his.

    I started analyzing the chapter and figured out it's impossible for him to be Madara clone or whatsoever( for the reasons I gave before).

    So the only option I was left is that it's some apprentice of Madara with whoem he developed this sinister plan.
    I realized this can't be true because Tobi seems to be alot wiser than Madara or anyone else for that matter.

    He never looses his calm, he has everything planned out and everything goes according to his plan (real Madara : things don't seem to ġo according to the plan..herp derp).

    His speech to Naruto - about how Elder and Younger son and their descendants have always fought and how Naruto and Sasuke is destined to fight or rather that he will make them do it - made me realize that some wannabe Madara's pawn couldn't have said this.

    These are words from someone very old and someone very wise.
     
         

  2. #27
    Senior Member Hawker's Avatar
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    Re: Madara and Tobi comparisons and differences: reasons why tobi is and is NOT madar

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyborg View Post

    None of those witnesses ever saw the real Madara. Why...? Because if they did their reactions to seeing Tobi's face would have been different. So there was no real way for them to compare it to the real deal to see if tobi was a fake or not.
    Okay I'm just gonna focus on this part and kill your theory by saying Madara is a world known criminal. They have a statue of him! Of course Kisame knows what he looks like.

    Also Tsuchikage heard Tobi speaking. He knows Madara's voice as he has met him and he didn't say anything, thus agreeing Tobi was/is Madara.

    And you keep saying Fugaku, Izuna etc were all shown dead but so too was Madara
    No he wasn't shown dead.
     
         

  3. #28
    Invincible Immortal EternalMangekyouRinnegan's Avatar
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    Re: Madara and Tobi comparisons and differences: reasons why tobi is and is NOT madar

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyborg View Post
    Ok, 1st of all i made this thread JUST for you:
    http://www.narutobase.net/forums/sho...d.php?t=114688
    Unfortunately, some of the simple minded and 2 faced noobs who said, duh, ofc he is'nt madara !! are now agreeing with you in this thread because of their sorry lack of intellect. Anyways lol onto my disagreements:
    Madara knowing about Nagato does'nt prove anything. It only shows that there is a connection between the 2 characters, Tobi and Madara. That i don't deny, as Tobi said he was the one who gave Nagato the rinnegan, not Madara. Its possible that Madara gave his rinnegan eyes to Tobi before his death (the connection between Tobi and Madara, while beyond dispute, is still vague), Tobi may have been to the hidden rain village and have known about an uzumaki who lived there.....don't say it happened waaayy late. The latest manga chapter shows that Madara did'nt die at the valley of the end.....the senju cells could have helped him live for a long time, up until the time Nagato was around. So there's no mystery there.

    The rinnegan is/was known to other people as well, how else did Jiraiya immediately recognize it when he saw Nagato's eyes? Its the ultimate occular jutsu, so Tobi or anyone else who can would want to attain it.

    The kyuubi can be controlled by anyone who possesses the power of Hashirama(senju cells probly) and has sharingan or the 'power of the uchiha' if you like. Tobi just needed those 2 things, which he does have. And if Tobi is so honest as you claim, he said this thing himself, and potentially Danzo may have been able to tame the 9 tails as well. And while Itachi did say that only Madara had done it, he also said Madara is Tobi and that was a flaw. He clearly did'nt know of the real Madara being dead, or at any rate was definitely deceived by Tobi. Another proof that Madara was'nt the only one: the Sage of the 6 paths controlled all tailed beasts initially, hell he created them. And the 1st hokage and Naruto we know have controlled the 9 tails, its not impossible for a tough ninja to do so(Tobi is that, i'll concede).

    None of those witnesses ever saw the real Madara. Why...? Because if they did their reactions to seeing Tobi's face would have been different. So there was no real way for them to compare it to the real deal to see if tobi was a fake or not. Tobi was the head of akatsuki, the members like Kisame and Itachi very likely took his word at face value. But we the readers know better. We know he lied about the 9 tails attack being a natural disaster to Sasuke, and he has almost definitely lied about his own identity as well. So there's really no way for you to assert that 'everything Tobi has said was proved true...' thats just not the case and i believe you know this fact.

    And if Tobi is just the result of some technique, then which tech is that...? Give me an example from the manga which shows that izanagi can create another version of a person, not a clone which dies with the original but a whole different conscious...? Seriously, boy this is not playing out the way you're imagining it. And you keep saying Fugaku, Izuna etc were all shown dead but so too was Madara in the same way and this is emphatically proven by the fact that he's been resurrected yet you keep saying he's Tobi...? Why? Why is madara, who died more likely to be tobi than Izuna who died, or fugaku who died etc. While Izuna, Fugaku and Kagami were NOT revived by edo tensei, many lesser ninjas(asuma, zabuza etc) were. And Madara was revived. So he is , by rights and facts clearly the least likely candidate to be Tobi. What is likely is that the real Madara is connected to Tobi, that they have met and hashed out a joint agenda/plan. That does'nt make them the same person.

    The knowledege of Tobi is due to the fact that he met Madara after the fight at the valley of the end which Madara survived, Madara directed him to form Akatsuki and gave him the info on the uchiha, their history and all the knowledge on the tablet which he had read. He also very likely told him about the senju + uchiha power= control of kyuubi trick....

    In conclusion,how can you ignore the statements of Madara from the last 2 chapters...? Or Kabuto, who calls Tobi the fake Madara? Madara himself says you know of our plan, not my plan which is what he should say if Tobi is just his long lost other half. Anyways, thats impossible in any case as its already shown that a soul that is not in the pure world(Madara being Tobi means his soul is in the impurel, i.e this world) cannot be brought back.

    Hope this gets across.

    And though i disagree, props for your efforts.


    Word brothah! I would give you +rep but I feel like you are Izuna/Kagame theory fanboy so I won't do it xD
     
         

  4. #29
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    Re: Madara and Tobi comparisons and differences: reasons why tobi is and is NOT madar

    Quote Originally Posted by Narubro View Post
    i feel the exact same way... if you look at my threads you'll see i said he was a clone.
    I mosr likely already did look at your thread about this. But i have been saying this from the getgo. Even when edo madara was revived i was telling peopke in their "tobi is fugaku/obito/kagami/etc" threads that tobi is still madara.

    Ask barbobot, cyborg, dave chappelle, hawker, eternalmangekyourinnegan, positive emotions, naruto&itachi.

    Right after 559 i still said tobi is madara and was saying it may be due to inazagi, splitting or madara sealing his soul in another body.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sharingan Itachi View Post
    The reasons given by you can be clues for two things and two things alone which are: either tobi is madara which was proven wrong or that tobi is a man who's very close to madara and whom madara had revealed his secrets and his plans to him. +rep for hard work
    Yes those are the 2 most likely possibilites

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawker View Post
    wow, nothing less from you man...this should be made a sticky thread as I would ASSUME! that every noob who thinks otherwise would read it and stop babbling nonsense in manga discussion area <-- and that would be my dream, that one day every noob would just stop, and be reasonable and logical..I guess that's too much to ask.. :/

    but yeah alone the witness part is enough to prove Tobi is Madara...but if that isn't enough to noobs then the Kyuubi taming part should be obvious

    Also one thing that you didn't mention..Tsuchikage heard Tobi's voice and he would obviously said something if he would've thought it didn't belong to Madara. Since he has heard Madara speaking so he knows what he sounds like. But yeah I guess that was Kagami's or Fugakus voice lol.
    The noobs stop babbling nonsense would be my dream too man. Im on a mission to make it into a reality even if 1 noob at a time

    The witnesses and tobi having madara knowledge and memories is irrefutable. Even a noob SHOULD see that

    And yea you are right. That Crossed my mind that onoiki is a witness and even he couldnt imagine who tobi could be other than madara and hes the most experienced ninja in naruto. Thanks man

    Quote Originally Posted by chimbroma View Post
    really nice points .....but why doesn't edo madara have space/time jutsu
    Chapter after chapter madara has shown a new jutsu. Fire jutsus, sharingan, Ems, sasunoo, rinnegan and now mutha fukkn wood release (wtf kishi). Hadnt the kyuubi been sealed in naruto madara would have summoned him and dont be suprised if madara start using inazagi.

    But madara hasnt shown if he can use spacetime or not.

    Also tobi may have gained spacetime on his own.
     
         

  5. #30
    Senior Member Cyborg's Avatar
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    Re: Madara and Tobi comparisons and differences: reasons why tobi is and is NOT madar

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawker View Post
    Okay I'm just gonna focus on this part and kill your theory by saying Madara is a world known criminal. They have a statue of him! Of course Kisame knows what he looks like.

    Also Tsuchikage heard Tobi speaking. He knows Madara's voice as he has met him and he didn't say anything, thus agreeing Tobi was/is Madara.

    No he wasn't shown dead.
    They have a statue of George Washington...so do you know exactly what he looks like? His color of hair, eyes or a million other details that statues can never show....?

    Have you heard, ever of edo tensei? Try to look it up and you'll understand why Madara is/was dead.

    And don't be a lazy bum.....address the whole post i made, otherwise the only thing you've killed is your own credibility.


    @NarutoVsGoku i'm waiting for your answer,
    @EternalMangRinnegan: I don't believe in either Izuna or Kagami's theory, i was just showing they were more likely than Madara to be Tobi.
     
         
    Last edited by Cyborg; 10-27-2011 at 08:35 PM.

  6. #31
    Senior Member Hawker's Avatar
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    Re: Madara and Tobi comparisons and differences: reasons why tobi is and is NOT madar

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyborg View Post
    They have a statue of George Washington...so do you know exactly what he looks like? His color of hair, eyes or a million other details that statues can never show....?

    Have you heard, ever of edo tensei? Try to look it up and you'll understand why Madara is/was dead.

    And don't be a lazy bum.....address the whole post i made, otherwise the only thing you've killed is your own credibility.
    You just avoided the Onoki part. Which I think is a great evidence.

    And I'm not going to adress your whole post 'cause it's too long and I'm lazy as you said and I can just kill it with that reply or at least challenge it.

    ps. Minato even said: "there's only one I know who can use space time ninjutsu at that level and that's Madara" ...still not Madara?
     
         

  7. #32
    Senior Member Cyborg's Avatar
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    Re: Madara and Tobi comparisons and differences: reasons why tobi is and is NOT madar

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawker View Post
    You just avoided the Onoki part. Which I think is a great evidence.

    And I'm not going to adress your whole post 'cause it's too long and I'm lazy as you said and I can just kill it with that reply or at least challenge it.

    ps. Minato even said: "there's only one I know who can use space time ninjutsu at that level and that's Madara" ...still not Madara?
    You avoided 95% of my post and you notice one line i overlooked, what a douchebag you truly are.

    And i avoided it because its bull, Onoki heard him.....he was just around at that era, he never said 'snap, that sounds like the madara from my childhood'.

    Yeah and Minato also said to naruto AFTER that that the 'masked man' was
    behind the 9 tail attack.....he did'nt say madara was behind the attack, why? You see unlike you i'm not pulling this outta my ass, and actually have facts to back up what i say, i don't just spew random bullshit like a fanboy who's butt hurt cuz the manga proved him wrong.
     
         

  8. #33
    Senior Member Hawker's Avatar
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    Re: Madara and Tobi comparisons and differences: reasons why tobi is and is NOT madar

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyborg View Post
    You avoided 95% of my post and you notice one line i overlooked, what a douchebag you truly are.

    And i avoided it because its bull, Onoki heard him.....he was just around at that era, he never said 'snap, that sounds like the madara from my childhood'.

    Yeah and Minato also said to naruto AFTER that that the 'masked man' was
    behind the 9 tail attack.....he did'nt say madara was behind the attack, why? You see unlike you i'm not pulling this outta my ass, and actually have facts to back up what i say, i don't just spew random bullshit like a fanboy who's butt hurt cuz the manga proved him wrong.
    Onoki wasn't just around, he fought Madara remember? So it's highly likely that he can make a difference between Madara's voice and someone elses voice.

    No Minato didn't say that but isn't it kinda obvious after the first statement?.... : D

    Now you're getting upset dude, I'm not making anything up so just leave that old flaming tactic. No fanboys here. Don't be mad

    You really aren't arguing properly with my points, just accusing me fanboy and hinting that my points uses their value as I didn't addres your whole "novel".
     
         
    Last edited by Hawker; 10-27-2011 at 08:53 PM.

  9. #34
    Peter Pan's Redemption Redemption's Avatar
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    Re: Madara and Tobi comparisons and differences: reasons why tobi is and is NOT madar

    Ok.i am not going to type a shit load of thing here...but i find the madara/zetsu theory very plausible,i mean tobi never actualy displayed a mangekyou sharingan..only a normal one...and being that he has hashiramas dna inserted in him would be perfect...a nonuchiha to use a sharingan non stop,and a rinnegan
     
         

  10. #35
    Madara JCW's Avatar
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    Re: Madara and Tobi comparisons and differences: reasons why tobi is and is NOT madar

    Its dope...


    'i also thought

    what if tobi is....

    TOBI oooooo

    lol


    but good job man no joke
     
         

  11. #36
    Invincible Immortal EternalMangekyouRinnegan's Avatar
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    Re: Madara and Tobi comparisons and differences: reasons why tobi is and is NOT madar

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawker View Post
    You just avoided the Onoki part. Which I think is a great evidence.

    And I'm not going to adress your whole post 'cause it's too long and I'm lazy as you said and I can just kill it with that reply or at least challenge it.

    ps. Minato even said: "there's only one I know who can use space time ninjutsu at that level and that's Madara" ...still not Madara?
    http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v53/c502/11.html

    Where does he say it you fool? That was the dumbest lie I have ever seen.

    P.S. You avoided all other evidence which is far better than your looks or voice "evidence"

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawker View Post
    Onoki wasn't just around, he fought Madara remember? So it's highly likely that he can make a difference between Madara's voice and someone elses voice.
    Onooki was little boy, at best teenager when they met. Onooki probably saw him on a battlefield. If they would have fought than Onooki wouldn't have been alive now.
    Besides, Tobi is old. He's voice would have changed if he was Madara. Onooki and the rest thought he's the real Madara so he should have been 120 years old by the Kage Summit. Obviosly, his voice is not evidence here. In anime it's high pitched, I doubt that the 35 years old looking Madara will have the same high pitched voice.
     
         
    Last edited by EternalMangekyouRinnegan; 10-27-2011 at 09:15 PM.

  12. #37
    Man Utd siyo's Avatar
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    Re: Madara and Tobi comparisons and differences: reasons why tobi is and is NOT madar

    Nice work.You touched on a lot of the things i picked up on, but i won't rule out the fact that he could be somebody else.All we know for certain is that tobi pretty much knows everything about madara,and regardless of his identity he knew that the name madara was enough to strike fear into the shinobi alliance.
     
         

  13. #38
    Senior Member Hawker's Avatar
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    Re: Madara and Tobi comparisons and differences: reasons why tobi is and is NOT madar

    Quote Originally Posted by EternalMangekyouRinnegan View Post
    http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v53/c502/11.html

    Where does he say it you fool? That was the dumbest lie I have ever seen.

    P.S. You avoided all other evidence which is far better than your looks or voice "evidence"
    was that really the part where I was refferring to?...I don't think so. As Cyborg said it was after the battle. And if he even then didn't say it with the actual words that I referred to then I'm sorry if I remember wrong...I just remember him saying "...there's only one person I can think that can do that (Madara)"...I he's not talking about space time tech then fine but still referring to him as Madara, and that's what I remember.
     
         

  14. #39
    Invincible Immortal EternalMangekyouRinnegan's Avatar
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    Re: Madara and Tobi comparisons and differences: reasons why tobi is and is NOT madar

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawker View Post
    was that really the part where I was refferring to?...I don't think so. As Cyborg said it was after the battle. And if he even then didn't say it with the actual words that I referred to then I'm sorry if I remember wrong...I just remember him saying "...there's only one person I can think that can do that"...I he's not talking about space time tech then fine but still referring to him as Madara, and that's what I remember.
    Well, obviosly. Who do you think could be powerful enough to do all that? There wasn't any other option to choose from. Madara is the obvios answer, that goes for everyone else who thought it's Madara.

    Fact is, Tobi is behind the mask and he was doing all those things not Madara. World doesn't know about Tobi, who in fact is as powerful as Madara and now even more powerful than him.

    Geez, I can't believe you dumbasses can't figure this out on yourself. Gotta spoon feed everyone.
     
         

  15. #40
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    Re: Madara and Tobi comparisons and differences: reasons why tobi is and is NOT madar

    Quote Originally Posted by EternalMangekyouRinnegan View Post
    Well, obviosly. Who do you think could be powerful enough to do all that? There wasn't any other option to choose from. Madara is the obvios answer, that goes for everyone else who thought it's Madara.

    Fact is, Tobi is behind the mask and he was doing all those things not Madara. World doesn't know about Tobi, who in fact is as powerful as Madara and now even more powerful than him.

    Geez, I can't believe you dumbasses can't figure this out on yourself. Gotta spoon feed everyone.
    Wow, someone thinks highly of himself. I think you have the biggest ego in all of NB. Fact is Eternal, even your theory that Tobi was Madara's apprentice is flawed. I can see why you have problems with everyone else's theories but your own, but you ignore so many flaws in your own theories that its laughable. I won't go into the whole 'elder son' theory because its old to me but this thread is the first time I've heard you mention the apprentice theory so I'll concentrate on that.

    Whoever this apprentice was, if in fact he is Tobi, he left his whole life behind. In fact, he left his life so far in the dust that he'd prefer this lie over his old life. Does that really seem to be consistent with any possible character profile? I mean Kagami is one possibility of being Tobi because we don't know how he died and he could have used the lie of having died to cover up his treachery. But if Tobi is some unknown character, as you are suggesting, than that would mean that no one in all the Narutoverse knows about him. Or at least he was such an unknown in the shinobi world that he didn't have any major ties to any village system.

    Not only that, but no significant character development has ever been dedicated to Tobi other than developing his character as Madara. Seriously you can't ignore this fact, Kishi has been telling us that Tobi is Madara all this time for a reason. So if we can't name a person that might be Tobi, what profile can we create that would explain Tobi's obsessive connection to Madara and his complete disregard to his past life?

    The only explanation is that he wasn't a human apprentice of Madara's, but rather his creation that he essentially considered his apprentice. I mean there is no other way to explain the fact that no one is the world knows who Tobi is and that he would so freely give up his whole life.... other than if he had no real life to start. Again, if you really think Tobi is anyone other than a Madara-Zetsu hybrid than I don't think you have very much respect for Kishi or any Manga writer for that matter. Character development and information is essential to making a manga a success. The fact that Madara and Zetsu have been the focus of Kishi's story for so long is evidence of this.
     
         

  16. #41
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    Re: Madara and Tobi comparisons and differences: reasons why tobi is and is NOT madar

    He may be, he may not. Who knows.
     
         

  17. #42
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    Re: Madara and Tobi comparisons and differences: reasons why tobi is and is NOT madar

    Quote Originally Posted by Floydical View Post
    Wow, someone thinks highly of himself. I think you have the biggest ego in all of NB. Fact is Eternal, even your theory that Tobi was Madara's apprentice is flawed. I can see why you have problems with everyone else's theories but your own, but you ignore so many flaws in your own theories that its laughable. I won't go into the whole 'elder son' theory because its old to me but this thread is the first time I've heard you mention the apprentice theory so I'll concentrate on that.

    Whoever this apprentice was, if in fact he is Tobi, he left his whole life behind. In fact, he left his life so far in the dust that he'd prefer this lie over his old life. Does that really seem to be consistent with any possible character profile? I mean Kagami is one possibility of being Tobi because we don't know how he died and he could have used the lie of having died to cover up his treachery. But if Tobi is some unknown character, as you are suggesting, than that would mean that no one in all the Narutoverse knows about him. Or at least he was such an unknown in the shinobi world that he didn't have any major ties to any village system.

    Not only that, but no significant character development has ever been dedicated to Tobi other than developing his character as Madara. Seriously you can't ignore this fact, Kishi has been telling us that Tobi is Madara all this time for a reason. So if we can't name a person that might be Tobi, what profile can we create that would explain Tobi's obsessive connection to Madara and his complete disregard to his past life?

    The only explanation is that he wasn't a human apprentice of Madara's, but rather his creation that he essentially considered his apprentice. I mean there is no other way to explain the fact that no one is the world knows who Tobi is and that he would so freely give up his whole life.... other than if he had no real life to start. Again, if you really think Tobi is anyone other than a Madara-Zetsu hybrid than I don't think you have very much respect for Kishi or any Manga writer for that matter. Character development and information is essential to making a manga a success. The fact that Madara and Zetsu have been the focus of Kishi's story for so long is evidence of this.
    You either misunderstood me or you didn't bother to read the whole comment. I was trying to show NaruVsGoku that im not stuck with my own theory and I am looking at facts and evidance from neutral standpoint.

    I never had a theory on Tobi being his apprentice I said that after reading latest chapter I had three possible outcomes of who Tobi might be.

    I thought Tobi as Madara's apprentice was the most possible outcome but I dropped that idea after analyzing Tobi's character.
    I came to conclusion that he can't be Madara's apprentice. It has to be someone superior to Madara. He could have been his mentor (like with Itachi) or they could have been equal partners(atleast Madara thought so).
    We can't know that for now but what I do believe is that Tobi was using Madara all along.

    And yes, I have problems with eveyone else's theories because they don't make any sense and are easily disproven.

    This is just one of the reasons :

    -Madara = dead
    -Izuna = dead
    -Kagame = dead? The remaining two elders said they are the only two left from those times
    -Shisui = dead
    Obito = dead
    Fugaku = dead
    Elder son = Tobi never said he died,funny is how Tobi is the one to tell the story about sons and about how it's Sasukes and Naruto's fate to figh each other.

    You can speculate with the Elder Son as much as you want, it will always make sense. That's why im leaning towards this theory.
     
         
    Last edited by EternalMangekyouRinnegan; 10-27-2011 at 10:18 PM.

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    Re: Madara and Tobi comparisons and differences: reasons why tobi is and is NOT madar

    @EMR im going to break down your comment very thruroughly

    btw im not flamming you. just being humorous

    Quote Originally Posted by EternalMangekyouRinnegan View Post
    What knowledge and expierence are you talking about?
    as i have said a million times now. and i will post manga links for you just to show you that i am not talking out of my ass but using the manga to support my ideas..



    "he [hashirama] was one of my rivals and i admired him and hated him more than anyone else" -tobi.

    nobody but madara would say this and feel this way about the 1st

    this is only 1 example of knowledge and experience that tobi has portrayed that corresponds to what madara would know or say.

    They were working together, obviosly Tobi knows alot about Madara. Is that a big secret that Madara had brother from whoem he later obtained EMS? Is that a secret that Madara lead Uchiha? Is that a big secret that Madara fought Hashirama? Even Itachi knew all this sh1t and he's not even from that time.
    was it widely known that madara survived after fighting hashirama? no. who was the first to expose this truth? tobi

    was it widely known that madara took hashirama cells? no. who was the first to expose this? tobi

    was it widely known that sage was in fact a real person, had 2 sons. was the first jinchuriki and fouht 10 tails? no. in fact it was thought to be a myth, legend. who confirmed it to be true? tobi. how would madara also know this? because of ems and rinnegan? so how does tobi know this? because if tobi is madara or madara manifested of some sort than logically it makes sense.

    How would anyone give witness about elder son if noone even knows sage had sons? At best Madara and Nagato could have found out about this because they had rinnegan and it could have been written in stone monument.




    madara knew about sage because he possessed ems and rinnegan and was able to decipher the tablets. tobi had the knowledge of sage. if tobi is madara than logically tobi has the knowledge because being madara he had ems and rinnegan to decipher the tablets.

    when taking rinnegan from madara he even said that he was taking what rightfully belonged to him. this is also logical in tobi being madara.

    How did Kabuto/Oro found out about this is still a mystery. Even Madara was shocked that someone like Kabuto who's not even able to read Uchiha stone monument knows about the secrets of Madara's body etc.
    why ask a noobish question?

    sigh look at pic above. kabuto and oro had a theory. kabuto and oro knew shit loads of everything. kabuto is a spy, he knows shit loads of shit.


    , the reason why he was acting as Madara was already given in manga, why do you avoid it?


    avoid it? i even mention it in my first post! and i give my reasons why i still believe tobi is madara. i explained this already! did you honestly read what i said with an open mind and unbiased opinion?

    there is still more evidence leading to tobi being madara despite the recent chapters. i acknoledge the recent chapters even disprove it but logically madara is STILL the best posibility. and there are ways to even make it possible due to inazagi, splitting, sealings or other unknown techniques.


    and obviosly Tobi attacked leaf with a reason, it was either to obtain kyuubi or to fram uchiha, perhaps even do both.
    obviously tobi wanted to obtain kyuubi. frame uchiha is a stretch. plausible but nothing to support it. nothing. but both tobi and madara have been successful at controlling kyuubi. and kyuubi only recognizes having been controlled by madara and no other uchiha. itachi said that madara was the only one to control kyuubi and minato said that only madara could have staged the kyuubi attack.!

    Tobi hasn't done a single thing without a reason. Everything goes according to his plan.
    the only reason you say this is to prove the stupid point that tobi attacked the leaf for a reason and that tobi had a grand plan behind it. no doubt tobi is very manipulative and great schemer but not everything goes to plan.

    nagato betraying him was not planned.
    sasuke failing at retreiving bee was not planned
    kabuto founding out his secret hideout was not planned
    kabuto havingthe ability to revive madara was not planned
    itachi sealing amaterasu into sasuke to kill tobi was not planned
    tobi having to get blown up by konan was not planned
    tobi not yet having the 8 or 9 tails was not planned
    sasuke not being able to defeat the 5 kages at the summit was not planned.

    Why do you avoid what he said in the next sentence? He was doubting Tobi, that's why he specificly said he's on Madara's said and not on Tobi's. Kabuto wants Madara as an ally.
    wants him as an ally but yet kabuto is controlling madara like a pawn.. you logic and reasoning is seriosuly flawwed.


    Im sorry but that's all is just a wishful thinking, too much of it, afaik.
    It is Madara's plan and none other one's, especially not some clone's. How do you share such a genius, sinister plan with some clone of yours who's only purpose was to do your erands? This doesn't make sense to me..
    thats because your illogical. you ignored all the reasons why tobi is madara. you just plainly ignored them.

    and you are mistaken in your way of thinking

    -who said it was madaras plan?
    -"some clone"? why do you undermine a clone? even if they are a clone? and nothing for sure if tobi is a clone. i gave other possibilities for his exsistence like inzagi or splitting.
    -"how do you share such genious blah blah blah" its the same way naruto shares his experience and thoughts with his clones. they are one so the thoughts and ideas are one. madara's goal was tobis goal and vice versa. if tobi is madara or a form of manifestation than this is logical that they share the same "such a genius, sinister plan"


    Not only that but it turns out his clone was so cool that he developed incredible s/t jutsu unseen to this world.
    no need for me to even adress your just committing a fallacy

    He even doublecrossed himself and is now more powerful than original himself (s/t + rinnegan = invincible). This doesn't sound silly to you at all?
    it sounds silly because you make it sound silly. but just cuz you make it sound silly doesnt mean that it is silly.

    Why do you cling to Tobi being Madara so much? Drop your Madara theory and for a sec think about it from a neutral standpoint. Analyze everything and then tell me if you still think that Tobi is Madara.
    ok.... hold on..... (thinking from a neutral standpoint).........


    ok...

    i have come to the conclusion that Madara is the most possibility to being Tobi



    This is how I did it :

    When the last chapter came out I was happy because it destroyed all the retarded Shisui/Obito/Izuna(it's not him for obvious reasons) theories.

    But than I realised that there's a high chance it's not the Elder son, rather it's some Madara's apprentice or a clone/creation of his.

    I started analyzing the chapter and figured out it's impossible for him to be Madara clone or whatsoever( for the reasons I gave before).

    So the only option I was left is that it's some apprentice of Madara with whoem he developed this sinister plan.
    I realized this can't be true because Tobi seems to be alot wiser than Madara or anyone else for that matter.

    He never looses his calm, he has everything planned out and everything goes according to his plan (real Madara : things don't seem to ġo according to the plan..herp derp).

    His speech to Naruto - about how Elder and Younger son and their descendants have always fought and how Naruto and Sasuke is destined to fight or rather that he will make them do it - made me realize that some wannabe Madara's pawn couldn't have said this.

    These are words from someone very old and someone very wise.
    if its a clone than it still falls into my thinking that tobi is madara.

    apprentice?!?! gtfo man.. really? than again that is the second best idea. better than tobi being obito.
     
         

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    Re: Madara and Tobi comparisons and differences: reasons why tobi is and is NOT madar

    i just dont get what all the fuss is about...what if tobi is madara or zetsu or obito or sakura or akamaru?!who the **** cares?Tobi is whatever kishimoto wants him to be.Did kishimoto ever say that tobi is actually a character that has been presented in naruto at any time?I mean seriously...why is everybody so hung up on their own theory?Just sit back,relax,enjoy the manga,and yes..speculate about who he is,BUT DONT START BASHING EVERYOTHER PERSON THAT HAS A DIFFERENT THEORYeven if you think that yours is the most logical choise

















    prbably gonna get a lot of czrap for this...
     
         

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    Re: Madara and Tobi comparisons and differences: reasons why tobi is and is NOT madar

    i saved the best for last cyborg

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyborg View Post
    Ok, 1st of all i made this thread JUST for you:
    http://www.narutobase.net/forums/sho...d.php?t=114688
    aww a thread just for me?? bro you shouldnt have!


    Unfortunately, some of the simple minded and 2 faced noobs who said, duh, ofc he is'nt madara !! are now agreeing with you in this thread because of their sorry lack of intellect.
    lol im tempted to make this my new sig!

    Anyways lol onto my disagreements:
    [IMG]http://troll.me/images/super-******/come-at-me-bro-yeah-rick-come-at-me.jpg[/IMG]



    Madara knowing about Nagato does'nt prove anything. It only shows that there is a connection between the 2 characters, Tobi and Madara. That i don't deny, as Tobi said he was the one who gave Nagato the rinnegan, not Madara. Its possible that Madara gave his rinnegan eyes to Tobi before his death (the connection between Tobi and Madara, while beyond dispute, is still vague),
    the similarity in what they say about nagato is undeniable. i know you are smart and logical cyborg and you even admit you cant deny the connection. nothing shows madara gave nagato rinnegan but it would all fall into place like a jigsaw puzzle if tobi is madara.

    madara gains rinnegan.
    madara gives rinnegan to nagato
    madara is tobi
    tobi takes rinnegan back

    that sequence would validate that tobi said "i took back what was rightfully mines."

    would that sequence validate it? yes or no? please answer that for me.

    Tobi may have been to the hidden rain village and have known about an uzumaki who lived there.....don't say it happened waaayy late. The latest manga chapter shows that Madara did'nt die at the valley of the end.....the senju cells could have helped him live for a long time, up until the time Nagato was around. So there's no mystery there.
    tobi was in the mist village manipulating the mizukage. idk how he wouldhave found out about an uzamaki living in the rain village. i wont attempt to even try to explain how he came upon nagato because there is nothing i can base my assumption on. nothing yet in the manga tells how nagato and tobi/madara became aquainted. but the manga suggests that madara/tobi and nagato HAVE been aquainted and it implies that probably when nagato had his first rinnegan experience..

    agree or disagree?


    The rinnegan is/was known to other people as well, how else did Jiraiya immediately recognize it when he saw Nagato's eyes? Its the ultimate occular jutsu, so Tobi or anyone else who can would want to attain it.
    of course many others knew of rinnegan and sage but it was only deemed as a myth or legend. jiraiya at first did could not beleive he was witnessing the sage's doujutsu. but your assuming tobi would have wanted what he did not have. when you just said earlier that you wouldnt argue that tobi gave nagato the rinnegan....

    The kyuubi can be controlled by anyone who possesses the power of Hashirama(senju cells probly) and has sharingan or the 'power of the uchiha' if you like.
    wood release and/or sharingan are needed to control kyuubi or any tailed beast for that matter.

    not just any senju becasue hashirama is the only senju known to have controlled kyuubi and this is implied due to his wood release.

    tobi noted that danzo had sharingan and wood release/hashirama dna and his goal was to control kyuubi. but fact is Danzo never controlled kyuubi and in fact it was an issue for danzo to even control hashirama powers.

    yamato... do i even have to go there?

    now on the sharingans.

    Madara and Tobi are the only ones known to have ever controlled kyuubi with sharingan. itachi said madara was the only one. kyuubi only recognizes madaras sharingan and power. when being controlled by tobi, kyuubi recognized it!



    kyuubi only and always talk about madaras sinister chakra and eye powers. and he saw tobi and recognized him. but who else could tobi be if madara is the only one who has controlled kyuubi with sharingan and kyuubi recognized tobi when tobi did it?

    be logical..


    Tobi just needed those 2 things, which he does have. And if Tobi is so honest as you claim, he said this thing himself, and potentially Danzo may have been able to tame the 9 tails as well. And while Itachi did say that only Madara had done it, he also said Madara is Tobi and that was a flaw. He clearly did'nt know of the real Madara being dead, or at any rate was definitely deceived by Tobi. Another proof that Madara was'nt the only one: the Sage of the 6 paths controlled all tailed beasts initially, hell he created them. And the 1st hokage and Naruto we know have controlled the 9 tails, its not impossible for a tough ninja to do so(Tobi is that, i'll concede).
    my response above applies to this as well..

    i will add:

    nothing proves that itachi was flawed in saying that he sought out madara and found him. nothing disproves that. and what proves it is the sake that it was said. it is part of the dialogue, part of the story.

    he clearly did know that madara was somehow alive. and tobi validates this and says that itachi knew he was alive and found him.

    sage controlled tailed beasts is a given.. did you really want me to list sage of 6 paths too? he is the ancestor of both senju and uchiha and only the strongest of both clans were able to control kyuubi and you expected me to list sage? did i really have to list sage? really?

    "this is not impossible for a tough ninja to do" by saying that after mentioning sage you are implying that tobi is in leagues with the sage of 6 paths himself? im going by context here and this is what you are implying........

    None of those witnesses ever saw the real Madara. Why...? Because if they did their reactions to seeing Tobi's face would have been different.
    wtf?!?!? lol what are you basing this on?!?!?

    So there was no real way for them to compare it to the real deal to see if tobi was a fake or not. Tobi was the head of akatsuki, the members like Kisame and Itachi very likely took his word at face value.

    invalid based on invalid comment above..

    But we the readers know better. We know he lied about the 9 tails attack being a natural disaster to Sasuke,
    technically he didnt lie at all. during child birth the seal of a jinchuriki is severly weakened and theres is a great chance that the bijuu can be released. this is a natural phenomena. kyuubi being released during kushinas birth was an expected natural disastor.

    but indeed tobi did leave out the important fact that he instigated this natural disaster. but a natrual disaster it was.

    and he has almost definitely lied about his own identity as well.
    fallacy man. you assume because he was dishonest about kyuubi attack that in conclusion he is dishonest about his identity. in fact him lying about his identity is not proven or disproven until his identity is identified!!!...sir!


    So there's really no way for you to assert that 'everything Tobi has said was proved true...' thats just not the case and i believe you know this fact.
    what i know is that everything tobi has said has been validated by another character in the manga. i do not believe but i know that you know that this is fact.

    And if Tobi is just the result of some technique, then which tech is that...?
    you ask a question which i already provided answers to. and you know the answers thats why you later on ask about them....

    what was the point of asking when you know the techs.


    Give me an example from the manga which shows that izanagi can create another version of a person, not a clone which dies with the original but a whole different conscious...? Seriously, boy this is not playing out the way you're imagining it.
    oh i am sorry. for a second i imagined that inazagi was a jutsu that allowed the user to make imagination into reality. or bend reality. or even create the uncreated or unimaginable... sorry i was deeply mistake...



    And you keep saying Fugaku, Izuna etc were all shown dead but so too was Madara in the same way and this is emphatically proven by the fact that he's been resurrected yet you keep saying he's Tobi...? Why? Why is madara, who died more likely to be tobi than Izuna who died, or fugaku who died etc.
    yes i explain that the last chapter disproves tobi being madara but everything that tobi has done till now proves that he is madara. and if tobi is to be anyone he is most likely madara. how? nobody but madara would be able to perform inazagi. how? fact is madara survived his fight with hashirama (said by tobi and validated by kabuto) and gained hashirama cells (said by tobi and validated by kabuto and edo madara). inzagi makes anything possible

    but again this could be explained by madara using muu's splitting techinique which i will admit is a stretch but plausible because madara has fought onoiki in the past and probably muu too for that matter and just copied his splitting tech. this is a big ass stretch but more plausible than tobi being anybody else but madara.

    and also theres other possiblities like madara sealed parts of his chakra or soul in another body before he died. i know he was revived by edo tensi but edo tensi doesnt even disprove this possibility on accound of other events that has happened in the manga. minato sealing part of himself and kushina in naruto before death. or muu splitting himself. half of him is sealed and the other is by madaras side. or the fact that zetsu splits himself all the time! if black zetsu died do you think white would die as well?

    While Izuna, Fugaku and Kagami were NOT revived by edo tensei, many lesser ninjas(asuma, zabuza etc) were.
    wow fallacy! you are assuming zabuza and asuma are lesser than fugaku and kagami and izuna! what are you basing that on? all of the ninjas revived were either famous or notorious for their skills. but izuna, fugaku and kagami not being revived does not allude to them being tobi. it could be that kabuto did not obtained their dna. would you conclude that shisui, danzo, the white fang and konan are or could be tobi because they were not revived but "lesser ninjas" were?

    that sentenced was flawwed logic!

    And Madara was revived. So he is , by rights and facts clearly the least likely candidate to be Tobi.
    you are NOT wrong for coming to this conclusion but the possibility of tobi being a split or a madara manifestation is possible due to inazagi and a plethera of crazy ass jutsus that madara could have performed before death.

    you ignore many times in the manga where a part of someone has been restored while the other part has been destroyed or sealed. countless times this has occured in naruto and you ignore it. just as like those countless times, its possible that part of madara was revived while the other part is tobi..

    and if not than disprove me and give me a manga link or pic...

    What is likely is that the real Madara is connected to Tobi,
    obviously....

    that they have met and hashed out a joint agenda/plan. That does'nt make them the same person.
    no but it can indicate that they are.


    The knowledege of Tobi is due to the fact that he met Madara after the fight at the valley of the end which Madara survived, Madara directed him to form Akatsuki and gave him the info on the uchiha, their history and all the knowledge on the tablet which he had read. He also very likely told him about the senju + uchiha power= control of kyuubi trick....
    lol and you base this on what?!? just wishful thinking?

    In conclusion,how can you ignore the statements of Madara from the last 2 chapters...? Or Kabuto, who calls Tobi the fake Madara? Madara himself says you know of our plan, not my plan which is what he should say if Tobi is just his long lost other half. Anyways, thats impossible in any case as its already shown that a soul that is not in the pure world(Madara being Tobi means his soul is in the impurel, i.e this world) cannot be brought back.

    Hope this gets across.

    And though i disagree, props for your efforts.
    "fake Madara" has the word "Madara" in it..

    "our" refers to madara and tobi being 2 entities but this doesnt disprove them having once being one entity at one time.

    nothing says anything about half a soul or something. and nothing disproves that inazagi was the cause. all i am saying is that if tobi is anybody that madara is the best possibility based on tobis knowledge, witnesses and actions. there are ways that make it possible for tobi madara and edo madara to co exist by inazagi, splitting, or sealing techs. there has been many cases where someone was destroyed or sealed had a part of themselves in another place. examples muu, minato, kushina, zetsu, naruto, shadow clones, hashirama cells, orochimaru and his cells, orochimaru arms, hachibi's tentacle was cut off and sealed in the gedo mazo and kingin kyuubi chakra was sealed in gedo mazo and the little bit of hachibi and kyuubi chakra are being used to fuel gedo mazo. i am not saying this is all definite. all i am saying if tobi is anybody he is most likely madara. based on what i said to support my claim am i wrong? invalid? are my arguements sound and logical? do i sound like a freaking noob? am i using the manga to back up my claims or just talking out of my ass?
     
         

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    Re: Madara and Tobi comparisons and differences: reasons why tobi is and is NOT madar

    Quote Originally Posted by Redemption View Post
    i just dont get what all the fuss is about...what if tobi is madara or zetsu or obito or sakura or akamaru?!who the **** cares?Tobi is whatever kishimoto wants him to be.Did kishimoto ever say that tobi is actually a character that has been presented in naruto at any time?I mean seriously...why is everybody so hung up on their own theory?Just sit back,relax,enjoy the manga,and yes..speculate about who he is,BUT DONT START BASHING EVERYOTHER PERSON THAT HAS A DIFFERENT THEORYeven if you think that yours is the most logical choise


    prbably gonna get a lot of czrap for this...
    HEY HOW ABOUT YOU MIND YOUR OWN DAMN BUSINESS YOU STUPID ASS.....

    lol nah jk man.. you right. it doesnt matter. but tis fun to speculate and debate on the possibilites. im not flamming anybody and fact is people like cyborg and eternalmangkyourinnegan are cool to debate with. we all share our own views but its great to express them and point out the flaws. this is the beatutiful thing about furoms. is the ability to express opinions and thoughts. and if you think someone has a good idea you say so and if you think their idea sucks .. YOU SAY SO.. lol so its not a big deal but its the reason why we have a furom. to talk about the manga and share ideas.
     
         

  22. #47
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    Re: Madara and Tobi comparisons and differences: reasons why tobi is and is NOT madar

    Quote Originally Posted by NarutoVsGoku;4543880
    as i have said a million times now. and i will post manga links for you just to show you that i am not talking out of my ass but using the manga to support my ideas..

    [SPOILER
    [/SPOILER]

    "he [hashirama] was one of my rivals and i admired him and hated him more than anyone else" -tobi.

    nobody but madara would say this and feel this way about the 1st

    this is only 1 example of knowledge and experience that tobi has portrayed that corresponds to what madara would know or say.

    was it widely known that madara survived after fighting hashirama? no. who was the first to expose this truth? tobi

    was it widely known that madara took hashirama cells? no. who was the first to expose this? tobi

    was it widely known that sage was in fact a real person, had 2 sons. was the first jinchuriki and fouht 10 tails? no. in fact it was thought to be a myth, legend. who confirmed it to be true? tobi. how would madara also know this? because of ems and rinnegan? so how does tobi know this? because if tobi is madara or madara manifested of some sort than logically it makes sense.
    Learn to read. I said they were partners. If they were partners, they shared knowledge, obviosly. Or do you think that Madara obtained rinnegan and hashi cells in secret from his partner? What's the logic behind this?
    I guess you read only something that suits you.


    madara knew about sage because he possessed ems and rinnegan and was able to decipher the tablets. tobi had the knowledge of sage. if tobi is madara than logically tobi has the knowledge because being madara he had ems and rinnegan to decipher the tablets.

    when taking rinnegan from madara he even said that he was taking what rightfully belonged to him. this is also logical in tobi being madara.
    Another fail on your part. I was right about your reading skills.
    Look at my post again, you will see that I said Madara could have read the tablet and he could have learned about Sages sons. But that's not the point. Your flawed logic suggested that people should have recognized Tobi as elder son if he was one, I said that that those people couldn't possibly know what's or who's Elder son.

    If you don't understand this and try to make a stupid reply.. then just don't.. you will humiliate yourself


    why ask a noobish question?

    sigh look at pic above. kabuto and oro had a theory. kabuto and oro knew shit loads of everything. kabuto is a spy, he knows shit loads of shit.
    Why do you pretend as if you are stupid? Nobody knows how in the earth Kabuto or Oro possibly could have found out this. They made this theory out of thin air.
    "Knowing shitloads of everything" as you say can't reveal secrets that's nearly impossible to find about (without reading the stone monument).

    COME ON, TELL ME HOW DID COULD THEY EVEN COME UP WITH SUCH THEORY. ANSWER MY NOOBISH QUESTION. (it's not caps rage, I want you to notice this part, so you would answer to this "noobish" question).


    the only reason you say this is to prove the stupid point that tobi attacked the leaf for a reason and that tobi had a grand plan behind it. no doubt tobi is very manipulative and great schemer but not everything goes to plan.

    1)nagato betraying him was not planned.
    2)sasuke failing at retreiving bee was not planned
    3)kabuto founding out his secret hideout was not planned
    3)kabuto havingthe ability to revive madara was not planned
    4)itachi sealing amaterasu into sasuke to kill tobi was not planned
    5)tobi having to get blown up by konan was not planned
    6)tobi not yet having the 8 or 9 tails was not planned
    7)sasuke not being able to defeat the 5 kages at the summit was not planned.
    Oh really?
    1)Tobi told Zetsu that he accounted for Nagato's death.
    2)Nagato's death and Sasuke failing to retreive killer bee happened almost in the same time, after this Tobi came up with the whole "4th shinobi war" plan to lure out 9tails and 8tails and so far everything goes according to his plan.
    3)http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v55/c519/5.html
    http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v58/c545/1.html
    Everything goes as planned, Kabuto is not in control as he thinks. When Kabuto black mailed Tobi with 6th coffin, Tobi already knew he would use it against him when the time comes.
    4)And what? Tobi easily disposed of his Amaterasu
    5)*cough* Izanagi *cough* Doesn't matter what Konan did. Tobi is alive, Konan is dead.
    6)Probably but it goes under 2nd point
    7)lol, you actually think that Tobi was planning for Sasuke to defeat 5 kages and their guards? Not even Itachi could do that. He just wanted to test Sasuke's powers.

    You can say whatever you want but even if some things don't go EXACTLY as planned they still go according to his plan. He's a mastermind like no other we have seen.

    wants him as an ally but yet kabuto is controlling madara like a pawn.. you logic and reasoning is seriosuly flawwed.
    Hahahaha, looked in the mirror? Show me atleast one panel where it would say that Kabuto is controlling Madara like a pawn. I'd say it's the other way around.


    hats because your illogical. you ignored all the reasons why tobi is madara. you just plainly ignored them.

    and you are mistaken in your way of thinking.
    Im illogical? You bring me these made up stories and you call me illogical?
    lol, how is my way of thinking is mistaken, i think it's the other way around and you are not thinking straight.


    1)who said it was madaras plan?
    2)"some clone"? why do you undermine a clone? even if they are a clone? and nothing for sure if tobi is a clone. i gave other possibilities for his exsistence like inzagi or splitting.
    3)"how do you share such genious blah blah blah" its the same way naruto shares his experience and thoughts with his clones. they are one so the thoughts and ideas are one. madara's goal was tobis goal and vice versa. if tobi is madara or a form of manifestation than this is logical that they share the same "such a genius, sinister plan"
    1)Who's plan is it? The clone made up the plan? Maybe he had a vision from gods? Explain yourself
    2)Because it's a creation. Madara created him, no matter what he is, real Madara is in charge. It was his plan and creating second Madara is part of the plan therefore there is no need to call it "our plan" when he talks about his own plan.
    3)This comparison is beyond stupid. Just alot of speculation and wishful thinking

    no need for me to even adress your just committing a fallacy

    it sounds silly because you make it sound silly. but just cuz you make it sound silly doesnt mean that it is silly
    Sure, what ever suits you best bro. Can't answer it than come up with an excuses.


    if its a clone than it still falls into my thinking that tobi is madara.

    apprentice?!?! gtfo man.. really? than again that is the second best idea. better than tobi being obito.
    L2 READ. I said "highly unlikely" that doesn't mean I crossed out the possibility of Elder son. Altogether I had three options :
    1)elder son
    2)apprentice of Madara - Kagame or some unintroduced ninja
    3)some kind of madara clone/split body/whatever

    In the end you can see im concluding that it ain't no clone and it ain't no apprentice. I stick with my Elder Son choice. So I don't get why you b1tch.

    It was to show that im not just sticking with my own theory all the time, I try to look at the manga from neutral point and analyze all kind of possibilities.
    You on the other hand, are a fanatical believer that it is Madara and nothing will change your mind. When disproven by facts you come up with more speculations just to prove yourself right. You don't even want to consider other options. You're probably the most stubborn guy in NB xD
    Oh, you're also kind of a douchebag. You deliberately avoid my words or change the meaning of them to suit yourself or your point. That's not cool.

    I don't hate on you but I do like to flame you xD Atleast some interesting debate going on in here.
     
         
    Last edited by EternalMangekyouRinnegan; 10-27-2011 at 11:51 PM.

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    Re: Madara and Tobi comparisons and differences: reasons why tobi is and is NOT madar

    kyuubi only and always talk about madaras sinister chakra and eye powers. and he saw tobi and recognized him. but who else could tobi be if madara is the only one who has controlled kyuubi with sharingan and kyuubi recognized tobi when tobi did it?

    be logical..
    This argument is invalid. Kyuubi never recognized Madara. He said "you..". Let's not speculate on this matter, ok?

    oh i am sorry. for a second i imagined that inazagi was a jutsu that allowed the user to make imagination into reality. or bend reality. or even create the uncreated or unimaginable... sorry i was deeply mistake...
    Herp..DERP! Indeed. You fail to understand/remember that Izanagi differs with each person. Sage, obviosly, being the Juubi jinchuuriki could use this jutsu to the full. Other people like Danzou or Tobi are using an incomplete Izanagi version. If Tobi had complete version of Izanagi there would be dozens of zetsus and creatures like that. "Fosters house for imaginary friends" lol

    Won't comment on your other arguments - they are just biased opinions, speculations and wishful thinking, not much of the facts or real evidence.
    All your theory revolves around that Tobi was using Madara's name and some people recognized him as such. Any other argument you have, doesn't really make sense.
     
         
    Last edited by EternalMangekyouRinnegan; 10-28-2011 at 12:14 AM.

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    Re: Madara and Tobi comparisons and differences: reasons why tobi is and is NOT madar

    Forgot to mention - Why is Tobi wearing a mask? If everyone recognized him as Madara as you people say than where's the problem? Why hide your face? He even went though the trouble and made a new mask for himself. That's after everyone has already assembled for war and there's no need to use Madara's name anymore. Think about that.
     
         

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    Re: Madara and Tobi comparisons and differences: reasons why tobi is and is NOT madar

    Quote Originally Posted by EternalMangekyouRinnegan View Post
    Learn to read.
    oh gosh i hate when people tell me to learn how to read! stop pointing at my flaws!!! just because i cant read doesnt mean i am less human than you are. i have a heart. i have a brain. i have 2 ears and 2 eyes 10 fingers and 11 toes soooo i am just as equal as you are !!

    I said they were partners. If they were partners, they shared knowledge, obviosly. Or do you think that Madara obtained rinnegan and hashi cells in secret from his partner? What's the logic behind this?
    I guess you read only something that suits you.
    partners? yes i agree to a degree with this. them being partners is implied by madara sying "our" plan. tobi and madara had a common goal. them having a common goal can also indicate that they are 1. im not saying it does indicates but i am saying it can.

    Another fail on your part. I was right about your reading skills
    lol again? why do you low blow me? just because i am in special ed classes does not mean you can insult me so. listen i have been in school for all my life and one thing that my 3rd grade teacher has taught mefor the past consecutive 30 years is that you cant give up.


    Look at my post again, you will see that I said Madara could have read the tablet and he could have learned about Sages sons. But that's not the point. Your flawed logic suggested that people should have recognized Tobi as elder son if he was one, I said that that those people couldn't possibly know what's or who's Elder son.
    lol woah wtf?!? when i say all this!? idk what you even talking about man..


    If you don't understand this and try to make a retarded reply.. then just don't.. you will humiliate yourself
    "you will humiliate yourself"













    Are you retard or you pretend as one?
    [IMG][/IMG]


    Nobody knows how in the earth Kabuto or Oro possibly could have found out this. They made this theory out of thin air.
    "Knowing shitloads of everything" as you say can't reveal secrets that's nearly impossible to find about (without reading the stone monument).
    well yea agreed nobody knows how in the earth kabuto or oro possibly could have found out but you cannot doubt that oro and kabuto were very resourceful and knowledgable about everything. they knew much of hashirama, edo tensi, evidently the sage and madara and rinnegan, kabuto was cunning enough to find out about tobis hideout and to find and be able to revive madara.

    how oro and kabuto could make a theory like that idk. but they were smart so what do you expect? tobi on the other hand is not kabuto or oro. he claimed to be madara and it would be logical that he gained his knowledge of sage and his legacy due to using ems and rinnegan to decipher the tablets which madar a obviously did. it is logical and if you dont see it you are either stubborn to admit it or herp derp.

    COME ON, TELL ME HOW DID COULD THEY EVEN COME UP WITH SUCH THEORY. ANSWER MY NOOBISH QUESTION. (it's not caps rage, I want you to notice this part, so you would answer to this "noobish" question).
    lol look above.


    Oh really? Read Manga again.
    1)Tobi told Zetsu that he accounted for Nagato's death.
    2)Nagato's death and Sasuke failing to retreive killer bee happened almost in the same time, after this Tobi came up with the whole "4th shinobi war" plan to lure out 9tails and 8tails and so far everything goes according to his plan.
    3)http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v55/c519/5.html
    http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v58/c545/1.html
    Everything goes as planned, Kabuto is not in control as he thinks. When Kabuto black mailed Tobi with 6th coffin, Tobi already knew he would use it against him when the time comes.
    4)And what? Tobi easily disposed of his Amaterasu
    5)*cough* Izanagi *cough* Doesn't matter what Konan did. Tobi is alive, Konan is dead.
    6)Probably but it goes under 2nd point
    7)lol, you actually think that Tobi was planning for Sasuke to defeat 5 kages and their guards? Not even Itachi could do that. He just wanted to test Sasuke's powers.
    1. he accounted but did not plan
    2. blah blah tobi still did not plan sasuke to fail.
    3. proves nothing. tobi didnt plan it.
    4. yes but non-theless being amaterasu to the face was not planned. tobi was just able to survive due to his skills. not to planning ahead of time that itachi would amaterasu him.
    5. yes inzagi did help tobi survive but even tobi was surpised that he would have to use that jutsu. not planned. but again tobi out skilled his opponent.
    6. no it doesnt.
    7. no i actually dont. matter fact tobi admits that he didnt know what to expect. he was hoping to take the kages captive but testing out sasukes powers was also his goal.

    point is not EVERYTHING is planned by tobi. if so than i guess tobi plans on losing to naruto as well huh? or you believe that naruto will be defeated by tobi the grand planner and the bad guy will win?


    You can say whatever you want but even if some things don't go EXACTLY as planned they still go according to his plan. He's a mastermind like no other we have seen.
    well duh..... my point is that nothing goes exactly as planned. but you were trying to make that silly point. idky.

    yea you were insinuating that he planned uchiha to be blamed for the attack and massacred as a result.

    Hahahaha, looked in the mirror? Show me atleast one panel where it would say that Kabuto is controlling Madara like a pawn. I'd say it's the other way around.
    dude the fact that madara is an edo tensi makes him a pawn to kabuto. the only one edo tensi who is absolutely free from kabutos control is itachi. everybody else is to some degree being controlled by kabuto. some more than others. madara is not a complete slave like kabuto did to haku and zabuza but still he is under the will of kabuto. if kabuto wanted to he could wipe out madaras will and completely enslave him. do you disagree?


    Im illogical? You bring me these made up stories and you call me illogical?
    lol, how is my way of thinking is mistaken, i think it's the other way around and you are not thinking straight.
    i iddnt make up any stories. i brought up possibility and chances. i dont make up stories. you have me mistaken. idk who you think i am but i aint the average NB member here. and you arent either. giving you props but you saying i cant read, illogical or making things up is just silly man. i joke around from time to time but i am serious when i say that madar is still the best chance at being tobi. you ignore the reasons why. the reasons i give are logical and reasonable. not imaginitive. not at all.


    1)Who's plan is it? The clone made up the plan? Maybe he had a vision from gods? Explain yourself
    2)Because it's a creation. Madara created him, no matter what he is, real Madara is in charge. It was his plan and creating second Madara is part of the plan therefore there is no need to call it "our plan" when he talks about his own plan.
    3)This comparison is beyond stupid. Just alot of speculation and wishful thinking
    idk whos plan it is because the manga hasnt made that clear. clones are capable of thought. a naruto clone acts and thinks the same way as the original naruto. muu splits himself and his split thinks logically and for himself. i never said he had a vision from the gods. and you are just saying that to mock me which really doesnt bother me at all because its just silly and stupid. i just explained myself and not because you told me to but becasue i wanted to.
    2. even IF tobi is a creatoin of madara (hypothetically) does that mean a creation cannot undermine the creator and think for himself? are you ruling out the possibility that tobi may have just felt like doing things his way? and thats assuming that tobi and madara are not on the same note, which they are on the same note, they have the same goal and same plan. madara acknoledge him as another entity. but this doesnt disprove madara and tobi having been 1 or tobi being a part of madara.
    3. actually the comparison is legit and just because you call it stupid doesnt make it so. you should explain what makes comparing naruto and naruto clone to madara and madara clone so stupid. saying its stupid without an explanation is just a fallacy on your part, trying to insinuate an opinion as a fact.


    Sure, what ever suits you best bro. Can't answer it than come up with an excuses.
    no its not whatever suits me. like i said just because you make it seem silly or think it is silly doesnt mean it is. especially when you give no reasons for why it is silly.


    L2 READ. I said "highly unlikely" that doesn't mean I crossed out the possibility of Elder son. Altogether I had three options :
    1)elder son
    2)apprentice of Madara - Kagame or some unintroduced ninja
    3)some kind of madara clone/split body/whatever

    In the end you can see im concluding that it ain't no clone and it ain't no apprentice. I stick with my Elder Son choice. So I don't get why you b1tch.

    It was to show that im not just sticking with my own theory all the time, I try to look at the manga from neutral point and analyze all kind of possibilities.
    You on the other hand, are a fanatical believer that it is Madara and nothing will change your mind. When disproven by facts you come up with more speculations just to prove yourself right. You don't even want to consider other options. You're probably the most stubborn guy in NB xD
    Oh, you're also a douchebag. You deliberately avoid my words or change the meaning of them to suit yourself or your point.

    I don't hate on you but I do like to flame you xD Atleast some interesting debate going on in here.
    lmaoo you called me a douchebag?? lol ok thats new..

    but i do acknowledge that the past recent chapters disprove madara being tobi. they flat out do so. but even so it is still possible due to inazagi, splitting, a powerful sealing tech based on other events where part of someone was sealed while the other part was dead or destroyed. idk why its hard for some people to except this fact. and nobody in the manga is more capable of being tobi than madara is based on his knowledge, actions and witnesses. (i sound like a broken record sigh). and if nobody is more capable of being tobi than madara, and its impossible for madara to be tobi than in conclusion its impossible for any else to be tobi for that matter. sound arguement.

    i aint flamming you either bro. i like you and you one of the few on this site who actually has a brain.
     
         

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