Re: Madara and Tobi comparisons and differences: reasons why tobi is and is NOT madar
i saved the best for last cyborg
aww a thread just for me?? bro you shouldnt have!
Originally Posted by Cyborg
lol im tempted to make this my new sig!
Unfortunately, some of the simple minded and 2 faced noobs who said, duh, ofc he is'nt madara !! are now agreeing with you in this thread because of their sorry lack of intellect.
Anyways lol onto my disagreements:
the similarity in what they say about nagato is undeniable. i know you are smart and logical cyborg and you even admit you cant deny the connection. nothing shows madara gave nagato rinnegan but it would all fall into place like a jigsaw puzzle if tobi is madara.
Madara knowing about Nagato does'nt prove anything. It only shows that there is a connection between the 2 characters, Tobi and Madara. That i don't deny, as Tobi said he was the one who gave Nagato the rinnegan, not Madara. Its possible that Madara gave his rinnegan eyes to Tobi before his death (the connection between Tobi and Madara, while beyond dispute, is still vague),
madara gains rinnegan.
madara gives rinnegan to nagato
madara is tobi
tobi takes rinnegan back
that sequence would validate that tobi said "i took back what was rightfully mines."
would that sequence validate it? yes or no? please answer that for me.
tobi was in the mist village manipulating the mizukage. idk how he wouldhave found out about an uzamaki living in the rain village. i wont attempt to even try to explain how he came upon nagato because there is nothing i can base my assumption on. nothing yet in the manga tells how nagato and tobi/madara became aquainted. but the manga suggests that madara/tobi and nagato HAVE been aquainted and it implies that probably when nagato had his first rinnegan experience..
Tobi may have been to the hidden rain village and have known about an uzumaki who lived there.....don't say it happened waaayy late. The latest manga chapter shows that Madara did'nt die at the valley of the end.
....the senju cells could have helped him live for a long time, up until the time Nagato was around. So there's no mystery there.
agree or disagree?
of course many others knew of rinnegan and sage but it was only deemed as a myth or legend. jiraiya at first did could not beleive he was witnessing the sage's doujutsu. but your assuming tobi would have wanted what he did not have. when you just said earlier that you wouldnt argue that tobi gave nagato the rinnegan....
The rinnegan is/was known to other people as well, how else did Jiraiya immediately recognize it when he saw Nagato's eyes? Its the ultimate occular jutsu, so Tobi or anyone else who can would want to attain it.
wood release and/or sharingan are needed to control kyuubi or any tailed beast for that matter.
The kyuubi can be controlled by anyone who possesses the power of Hashirama(senju cells probly) and has sharingan or the 'power of the uchiha' if you like.
not just any senju becasue hashirama is the only senju known to have controlled kyuubi and this is implied due to his wood release.
tobi noted that danzo had sharingan and wood release/hashirama dna and his goal was to control kyuubi. but fact is Danzo never controlled kyuubi and in fact it was an issue for danzo to even control hashirama powers.
yamato... do i even have to go there?
now on the sharingans.
Madara and Tobi are the only ones known to have ever controlled kyuubi with sharingan. itachi said madara was the only one. kyuubi only recognizes madaras sharingan and power. when being controlled by tobi, kyuubi recognized it!
kyuubi only and always talk about madaras sinister chakra and eye powers. and he saw tobi and recognized him. but who else could tobi be if madara is the only one who has controlled kyuubi with sharingan and kyuubi recognized tobi when tobi did it?
my response above applies to this as well..
Tobi just needed those 2 things, which he does have. And if Tobi is so honest as you claim, he said this thing himself, and potentially Danzo may have been able to tame the 9 tails as well. And while Itachi did say that only Madara had done it, he also said Madara is Tobi and that was a flaw. He clearly did'nt know of the real Madara being dead, or at any rate was definitely deceived by Tobi. Another proof that Madara was'nt the only one: the Sage of the 6 paths controlled all tailed beasts initially, hell he created them. And the 1st hokage and Naruto we know have controlled the 9 tails, its not impossible for a tough ninja to do so(Tobi is that, i'll concede).
i will add:
nothing proves that itachi was flawed in saying that he sought out madara and found him. nothing disproves that. and what proves it is the sake that it was said. it is part of the dialogue, part of the story.
he clearly did know that madara was somehow alive. and tobi validates this and says that itachi knew he was alive and found him.
sage controlled tailed beasts is a given.. did you really want me to list sage of 6 paths too? he is the ancestor of both senju and uchiha and only the strongest of both clans were able to control kyuubi and you expected me to list sage? did i really have to list sage? really?
"this is not impossible for a tough ninja to do" by saying that after mentioning sage you are implying that tobi is in leagues with the sage of 6 paths himself? im going by context here and this is what you are implying........
wtf?!?!? lol what are you basing this on?!?!?
None of those witnesses ever saw the real Madara. Why...? Because if they did their reactions to seeing Tobi's face would have been different.
So there was no real way for them to compare it to the real deal to see if tobi was a fake or not. Tobi was the head of akatsuki, the members like Kisame and Itachi very likely took his word at face value.
invalid based on invalid comment above..
technically he didnt lie at all. during child birth the seal of a jinchuriki is severly weakened and theres is a great chance that the bijuu can be released. this is a natural phenomena. kyuubi being released during kushinas birth was an expected natural disastor.
But we the readers know better. We know he lied about the 9 tails attack being a natural disaster to Sasuke
but indeed tobi did leave out the important fact that he instigated this natural disaster. but a natrual disaster it was.
fallacy man. you assume because he was dishonest about kyuubi attack that in conclusion he is dishonest about his identity. in fact him lying about his identity is not proven or disproven until his identity is identified!!!...sir!
and he has almost definitely lied about his own identity as well.
what i know is that everything tobi has said has been validated by another character in the manga. i do not believe but i know that you know that this is fact.
So there's really no way for you to assert that 'everything Tobi has said was proved true...' thats just not the case and i believe you know this fact.
you ask a question which i already provided answers to. and you know the answers thats why you later on ask about them....
And if Tobi is just the result of some technique, then which tech is that...?
what was the point of asking when you know the techs.
oh i am sorry. for a second i imagined that inazagi was a jutsu that allowed the user to make imagination into reality. or bend reality. or even create the uncreated or unimaginable... sorry i was deeply mistake...
Give me an example from the manga which shows that izanagi can create another version of a person, not a clone which dies with the original but a whole different conscious...? Seriously, boy this is not playing out the way you're imagining it.
yes i explain that the last chapter disproves tobi being madara but everything that tobi has done till now proves that he is madara. and if tobi is to be anyone he is most likely madara. how? nobody but madara would be able to perform inazagi. how? fact is madara survived his fight with hashirama (said by tobi and validated by kabuto) and gained hashirama cells (said by tobi and validated by kabuto and edo madara). inzagi makes anything possible
And you keep saying Fugaku, Izuna etc were all shown dead but so too was Madara in the same way and this is emphatically proven by the fact that he's been resurrected yet you keep saying he's Tobi...? Why? Why is madara, who died more likely to be tobi than Izuna who died, or fugaku who died etc.
but again this could be explained by madara using muu's splitting techinique which i will admit is a stretch but plausible because madara has fought onoiki in the past and probably muu too for that matter and just copied his splitting tech. this is a big ass stretch but more plausible than tobi being anybody else but madara.
and also theres other possiblities like madara sealed parts of his chakra or soul in another body before he died. i know he was revived by edo tensi but edo tensi doesnt even disprove this possibility on accound of other events that has happened in the manga. minato sealing part of himself and kushina in naruto before death. or muu splitting himself. half of him is sealed and the other is by madaras side. or the fact that zetsu splits himself all the time! if black zetsu died do you think white would die as well?
wow fallacy! you are assuming zabuza and asuma are lesser than fugaku and kagami and izuna! what are you basing that on? all of the ninjas revived were either famous or notorious for their skills. but izuna, fugaku and kagami not being revived does not allude to them being tobi. it could be that kabuto did not obtained their dna. would you conclude that shisui, danzo, the white fang and konan are or could be tobi because they were not revived but "lesser ninjas" were?
While Izuna, Fugaku and Kagami were NOT revived by edo tensei, many lesser ninjas(asuma, zabuza etc) were.
that sentenced was flawwed logic!
you are NOT wrong for coming to this conclusion but the possibility of tobi being a split or a madara manifestation is possible due to inazagi and a plethera of crazy ass jutsus that madara could have performed before death.
And Madara was revived. So he is , by rights and facts clearly the least likely candidate to be Tobi.
you ignore many times in the manga where a part of someone has been restored while the other part has been destroyed or sealed. countless times this has occured in naruto and you ignore it. just as like those countless times, its possible that part of madara was revived while the other part is tobi..
and if not than disprove me and give me a manga link or pic...
What is likely is that the real Madara is connected to Tobi,
no but it can indicate that they are.
that they have met and hashed out a joint agenda/plan. That does'nt make them the same person.
lol and you base this on what?!? just wishful thinking?
The knowledege of Tobi is due to the fact that he met Madara after the fight at the valley of the end which Madara survived, Madara directed him to form Akatsuki and gave him the info on the uchiha, their history and all the knowledge on the tablet which he had read. He also very likely told him about the senju + uchiha power= control of kyuubi trick....
"fake Madara" has the word "Madara" in it..
In conclusion,how can you ignore the statements of Madara from the last 2 chapters...? Or Kabuto, who calls Tobi the fake Madara? Madara himself says you know of our plan, not my plan which is what he should say if Tobi is just his long lost other half. Anyways, thats impossible in any case as its already shown that a soul that is not in the pure world(Madara being Tobi means his soul is in the impurel, i.e this world) cannot be brought back.
Hope this gets across.
And though i disagree, props for your efforts.
"our" refers to madara and tobi being 2 entities but this doesnt disprove them having once being one entity at one time.
nothing says anything about half a soul or something. and nothing disproves that inazagi was the cause. all i am saying is that if tobi is anybody that madara is the best possibility based on tobis knowledge, witnesses and actions. there are ways that make it possible for tobi madara and edo madara to co exist by inazagi, splitting, or sealing techs. there has been many cases where someone was destroyed or sealed had a part of themselves in another place. examples muu, minato, kushina, zetsu, naruto, shadow clones, hashirama cells, orochimaru and his cells, orochimaru arms, hachibi's tentacle was cut off and sealed in the gedo mazo and kingin kyuubi chakra was sealed in gedo mazo and the little bit of hachibi and kyuubi chakra are being used to fuel gedo mazo. i am not saying this is all definite. all i am saying if tobi is anybody he is most likely madara. based on what i said to support my claim am i wrong? invalid? are my arguements sound and logical? do i sound like a freaking noob? am i using the manga to back up my claims or just talking out of my ass?