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  1. #21
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    Re: religion vs science

    Quote Originally Posted by yama View Post
    thank you



    think about the inside of a car and how complex everything works together, think about an assembly line where the parts to certain things are assembled by a even more complex machine. they were created, those things aren't accidents

    now think about the human body, or the complexity of the planet


    and a lot of us would find it easier to not believe in God and just do whatever the heck we want while we still have this life, than to bound ourselves by unnecessary rules
    A human's body works the way it works because that's the only way it COULD work under these conditions. You can't isolate the development of the human body over time from the development of the earth.

    I know you think, "we're too perfectly crafted to be made by accident" but the fact is, we weren't. We evolved this way to better adapt to the world because if we didn't adapt, we would have been extinct.

    for the 60000th time, Atheists aren't just anarchistic loons that do whatever the hell they want in life WHENEVER they want.

    I was raised with morals and ethics bestowed upon me by my parents and teachers. Just because I don't think I'll go to Hell if I kill someone, doesn't mean I don't think it's just morally wrong to do so.
     
         

  2. #22
    overcome hatred with love ackeem1992's Avatar
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    Re: religion vs science

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonfly X View Post
    There is a wonderful quote I am trying to remember here,
    "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed, Faith is the denial of views so that faith can be preserved"
    And there goes your argument
    this fails in so many different ways for my views are also based off what is observed not faith.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Rock View Post
    It doesn't matter what you think.
    um yes it does

    Quote Originally Posted by uzumakikenshin View Post
    just one question:

    do you say that if you are an atheist it means you automatically believes in science or in evolution?
    naw i didn't say that

    Quote Originally Posted by uzumakikenshin View Post
    and another thing:

    THEIST does not revolves around logic, they based it on faith... while ATHEISM does
    i'm aware of that, however i have a slightly different reasoning, for me i mostly use logic rather than just faith, theists however believe in a deities without a solid reasoning thats just faith (a belief in something not seen)

    also theism don't belive in no form of deities not just faith.
     
         

  3. #23
    Senior Member uzumakikenshin's Avatar
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    Re: religion vs science

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonfly X View Post
    There is a wonderful quote I am trying to remember here,
    "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed, Faith is the denial of views so that faith can be preserved"
    And there goes your argument
    FAITH is not the denial of views... I truthfully believe some facts that SCIENCE creates and proves.. just like how the rain is made or how humans and animals reproduce.... I believe in some proven facts but it does not contradict my FAITH..

    I do believe that for a perfect process to happen there is a supreme being who actualizes it.. just how the earth is perfectly revolving about the sun.. it's not a mere accident for me.. I believe that SOMEONE makes those "accidents" to happen.


    @ackeem: good... because some directly connects ATHEISM with EVOLUTION...
     
         
    Last edited by uzumakikenshin; 10-30-2011 at 02:09 AM.

  4. #24
    Original Akatsuki Member Dragonfly X's Avatar
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    Re: religion vs science

    Quote Originally Posted by ackeem1992 View Post
    this fails in so many different ways for my views are also based off what is observed not faith.
    So God popped down to you and said "hey, what's up? Just wanted you to know, yeah...I am here, so...no more doing what you do in the shower every morning, that there is a sin!"
     
         

  5. #25
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    Re: religion vs science

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonfly X View Post
    So God popped down to you and said "hey, what's up? Just wanted you to know, yeah...I am here, so...no more doing what you do in the shower every morning, that there is a sin!"
    Crap. I sin ALOT.....
     
         

  6. #26
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    Re: religion vs science

    Quote Originally Posted by IntrovertedKittenNinja View Post
    Crap. I sin ALOT.....
    Eeewww, you eat a ton of potatoes in the shower? That's not good, one of the 7 deadlies I would say
     
         

  7. #27
    Senior Member tacobelt's Avatar
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    Re: religion vs science

    religion is wishful thinking. would you rather have 1 highly skilled doctor or 1 billion priests praying when you get into an accident. its convenient how ppl say "its a miracle" to define the probability that favors them. & its convenient how it only helps when its vague. Cut an arterie and no amount of praying will fix it.. call a doctor, let him do the work and OMG its a miracle you survived.
    9/10 ppl die they say its a miracle 1 survived.
    1/10 ppl die they say its a miracle only 1 died.
    10/10 ppl die they say its miracle it wasn't more.
    point being its a self fulfilling mentality. as far as the whole "too complex to be evolution" say that to all the extinct species. nature is a scatter shot. You either die or adapt. Trillions of stars, billions of galaxies in the universe. its not just a wallpaper in the sky. its a scatter shot.
     
         

  8. #28
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    Re: religion vs science

    Quote Originally Posted by IntrovertedKittenNinja View Post
    A human's body works the way it works because that's the only way it COULD work under these conditions. You can't isolate the development of the human body over time from the development of the earth.

    I know you think, "we're too perfectly crafted to be made by accident" but the fact is, we weren't. We evolved this way to better adapt to the world because if we didn't adapt, we would have been extinct.

    for the 60000th time, Atheists aren't just anarchistic loons that do whatever the hell they want in life WHENEVER they want.

    I was raised with morals and ethics bestowed upon me by my parents and teachers. Just because I don't think I'll go to Hell if I kill someone, doesn't mean I don't think it's just morally wrong to do so.
    and yet, you totally ignore everything by turning to science. most atheist turn to science when they don't want to accept the existence of God, but it's not you. as God says, that serpent is cunning. he gave the nonbelievers a tool to use.

    I gave you examples, if you ignore those then anything else I say won't matter to you.

    but my last warning is be careful, the devil is very real and intelligent.
    here in the US, God isn't even allowed in public schools, but the teachings of science and ALL their theories are, private schools cost money while homeschooling isn't much of an option for busy parents. *sigh* it's so sad to watch the be so blind
     
         

  9. #29
    overcome hatred with love ackeem1992's Avatar
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    Re: religion vs science

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonfly X View Post
    So God popped down to you and said "hey, what's up? Just wanted you to know, yeah...I am here, so...no more doing what you do in the shower every morning, that there is a sin!"
    fail again that's not what i implied, i meant my views are based off what is observed meaning the complexity of the earth on a whole. your mind is so shallow to the point you can't even properly interpret a post.

    @introvert in the process of replying to your post
     
         

  10. #30
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    Re: religion vs science

    Quote Originally Posted by tacobelt View Post
    religion is wishful thinking. would you rather have 1 highly skilled doctor or 1 billion priests praying when you get into an accident. its convenient how ppl say "its a miracle" to define the probability that favors them. & its convenient how it only helps when its vague. Cut an arterie and no amount of praying will fix it.. call a doctor, let him do the work and OMG its a miracle you survived.
    9/10 ppl die they say its a miracle 1 survived.
    1/10 ppl die they say its a miracle only 1 died.
    10/10 ppl die they say its miracle it wasn't more.
    point being its a self fulfilling mentality. as far as the whole "too complex to be evolution" say that to all the extinct species. nature is a scatter shot. You either die or adapt. Trillions of stars, billions of galaxies in the universe. its not just a wallpaper in the sky. its a scatter shot.
    This. ^

    LOL what the sexy Moegi!?
     
         

  11. #31
    Senior Member tacobelt's Avatar
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    Re: religion vs science

    Quote Originally Posted by IntrovertedKittenNinja View Post
    This. ^

    LOL what the sexy Moegi!?
    oh noes! you have seen through the amazing turned horizontal to confuse no jutsu technique
     
         

  12. #32
    Senior Member uzumakikenshin's Avatar
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    Re: religion vs science

    Quote Originally Posted by tacobelt View Post
    religion is wishful thinking. would you rather have 1 highly skilled doctor or 1 billion priests praying when you get into an accident. its convenient how ppl say "its a miracle" to define the probability that favors them. & its convenient how it only helps when its vague. Cut an arterie and no amount of praying will fix it.. call a doctor, let him do the work and OMG its a miracle you survived.
    9/10 ppl die they say its a miracle 1 survived.
    1/10 ppl die they say its a miracle only 1 died.
    10/10 ppl die they say its miracle it wasn't more.
    point being its a self fulfilling mentality. as far as the whole "too complex to be evolution" say that to all the extinct species. nature is a scatter shot. You either die or adapt. Trillions of stars, billions of galaxies in the universe. its not just a wallpaper in the sky. its a scatter shot.

    YOU need to understand this... it was also said and taught in CHRISTIANS that even if you pray for something if it's not in GOD's will it will not be done..

    and can you please show us evidence on those statistics that you have given us? 9/10, 1/10,10/10? where do you get that? since I assume you believe in facts then prove it with facts...
     
         

  13. #33
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    Re: religion vs science

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonfly X View Post
    So God popped down to you and said "hey, what's up? Just wanted you to know, yeah...I am here, so...no more doing what you do in the shower every morning, that there is a sin!"
    why don't you try reading the bible sometime, really, I'm not trying to be sarcastic at all.
     
         

  14. #34
    Original Akatsuki Member Dragonfly X's Avatar
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    Re: religion vs science

    Quote Originally Posted by ackeem1992 View Post
    fail again that's not what i implied, i meant my views are based off what is observed meaning the complexity of the earth on a whole. your mind is so shallow to the point you can't even properly interpret a post.

    @introvert in the process of replying to your post
    Yes, I am shallow because I have read the bible, Quran, and read up on both Existentialism and Nihilism... So because things are complex you automatically assume there is a bigger meaning. Yes, things are complicated, and things happen to make it seem amazing. But then again, we are pretty uncomplicated, if we bleed, we die. If we are ignorant, we remain ignorant unless we do something about it. Take the universe, the big bang, and all the planets forming. Then think, humans, and you will realize, we aren't that special.
    And the fact that if we didn't have cognitive thought, god wouldn't exist for us. We would be more worried about basic survival instincts than wondering "Does Existence come before Essence" or is it the other way around? The reasons humans believe in a higher power is because we want to matter. No one wants to think "Hey, I will live my life, but it will matter to no one, and nothing will change after I die."
    Religion is the opiate to the masses, you want to believe that in this insignificant planet, that an ultimate, omnipotent, omniscient, and benevolent being existed a priori to our creation just for the sole fact of creating the world, creating us, and then sitting back and governing over us, deciding what is right, wrong, and morally correct?
    If people didn't die, I doubt there would be such a huge deal over religion. There is nothing to fear, nothing in the unknown, we live, and that is it. There is no reason to search for a higher meaning. Why ponder over the fact that we are alive when that is the norm.
    In fact, I struggle to believe that even if some being like that existed, if he would be interested in us anyway. He is all-powerful, yet he wants to play the puppet master and connect the strings to our lives? Our tiny, insignificant, tiny bit of carbon filled being. And that he made us in his image, his image being predominantly male, white, and smart. Which, oh wait, not check, not check, and unfortunately, not all are smart, so not check again.
    So before you go and say I am shallow, perhaps you should explore what you are really believing in, and then question "Am I right?" Am I absolutely sure, that out of millions upon millions, I picked the right choice, if there is even a choice at all..
    And when you can't answer honestly. Then you will perhaps see where we are coming from. Why atheism is what it is. We see through eyes unclouded by what we are told by a book what should be good, and what should be bad. We don't let someone else tell us how we should live, and how to live without angering something that we cannot begin to perceive.
     
         

  15. #35
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    Re: religion vs science

    sorry if I haven't replied to anybody, but my computers keeps messing up and I can only see parts of the page, it's really annoying. and at such an important time

    the bible say to watch for these signs: people claiming to be Jesus, nation rising against nation, God told the jews that he will drive them out their country and that will again reunite them, and that none will be able to truly take them from his hand, and nobody will be able to tell season from seaon. and much more...

    people are claiming to be Jesus

    this nation thing haven't exatcly happened yet, but it may come soon

    we all know that hitler slaughtered millions of jews, it's the only time in WORLD HISTORY that so many people of a nation was killed but still remained a nation
    hitler just played the role he was suppose to

    and now scientist talks about "global warming" and that changes in temperature will eventually come, lol, give me a break

    anyway. I hope that people will see before it's too late. He will come like a thief in the night, and there will truly be no joking matter
     
         

  16. #36
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    Re: religion vs science

    and also @introvertedkitten there's a difference between following someone else's rules and following God's, who consider lusting after a female adultery.

    we don't follow try to all these rules because we want to be something important. *sigh* what's funny is that you are alive typing to me right now denying God's existence, and yet he is the one keeping that fragile little heart in your chest beeping right now, the level of God's love always amazes me
     
         

  17. #37
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    Re: religion vs science

    Quote Originally Posted by yama View Post
    and also @introvertedkitten there's a difference between following someone else's rules and following God's, who consider lusting after a female adultery.

    we don't follow try to all these rules because we want to be something important. *sigh* what's funny is that you are alive typing to me right now denying God's existence, and yet he is the one keeping that fragile little heart in your chest beeping right now, the level of God's love always amazes me
    Uhhhhhh.

    Really, this is the exact reason why threads that juxtaposition religion and science against each other are always ill-advised.

    You can't argue with religious people like yourself because you all use circular-reasoning to argue.

    God exists because he exists. Or God's rules are the binding law of the universe because God made them.

    For a logical debate that reaches a conclusion to take place, the two debating parties must agree on a set of rules upon which to base their logic. Because this thread spurs on the argument of the existence of a God versus non-existence, and the argument FOR the existence of God is based on the rule that God exists, a debate like this is pointless.

    I can lecture you on how my heart beats because of all kinds of biological mechanisms that evolution over time and such created, but if all you're going to say is, "Wrong, God made your heart.", then it's like arguing that oranges are sour to someone who believes apples are sweet.
     
         

  18. #38
    overcome hatred with love ackeem1992's Avatar
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    Re: religion vs science

    Quote Originally Posted by IntrovertedKittenNinja View Post

    It's not far-fetched at all. You said it yourself, over millions of years, these organisms changed. You go out of your way to point out Microevolution is different than Macroevolution, a sentiment you revealed you believe in when you said, "...then over a extended period of time micro/cellular organism evolved into complex organism, scientist today call this process macro-evolution (that's right macro not micro)" however what you need to realize is Macroevolution is the accumulation of microevolutions over time.

    What you need to learn about evolution is that it is not like Pokemon-- animals do not start out as one thing and miraculously pop into another. Small changes in genotype (that is, the genes) and phenotype (as in, physical attributes and traits like legs, eyes, etc.) ACCUMULATE over millions of years and eventually speciation occurs. Sometimes these changes can occur rapidly, or slowly, as stated in the Punctuated Equillibrium theory of evolution.
    sorry i made it sounded like pokemon but thats not what i intended, my gentle friend time by itself cannot dramatically change the geno and pheno type make up organism like scientist implied it did this reasoning has never ever been proven, my friend your point here is based on the "Equillibrium theory" keyword theory means not proven these are all assumptions, thus they are not fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by IntrovertedKittenNinja View Post
    You're right! A fish cannot miraculously turn into a rabbit by mere chance. In fact, Evolution agrees with you. An animal doesn't randomly turn into another animal. Because of Natural Selection, traits that are favorable in an organism allow it to survive and pass on it's genes to it's offspring. Then that offspring's favorable traits allow IT to survive and pass on IT's genes to IT's offspring-- as a result, miniscule changes occur from generation to generation-- and these changes accumulate over time and cause it to speciate from its ancestors. So, to counter your arguement, No, species don't just randomly change by chance (with the exception of random genetic mutations) they change because they have favorable traits that are passed down to it's offspring and so on and so forth.
    ok this was not my initial point my friend, but i will still respond,

    minuscule changes occurs (key word minuscule) , however nothing to degree that would transform scales into hairs, or a reptile into a mammal, Darwin claim that the reptile-to-mammal evolution is well documented. But for reptiles to evolve into mammals at least some of these transformations must have happened: Scales had to have mutated into hair, Breasts had to have evolved from nothing!, externally laid eggs had to evolve into soft-shelled eggs that were nourished by an umbilical cord and placenta in a womb ! leading skeptist has proven the possibly of that happening my chance/natural selection is 1/1000000000000.

    Quote Originally Posted by IntrovertedKittenNinja View Post

    Well, how is, Scientifically, (since we're talking about Science) a sentient God creating everything any more plausible? Prove that with science, since you're disproving science with science. =]
    no its not entirely plausible, however a car creating itself is more plausible right?


    Quote Originally Posted by IntrovertedKittenNinja View Post
    Again, you misunderstand Evolution. You're assuming animals randomly turn into other things for no reason. You need to study Natural Selection, which drives Evolution.
    i did not misunderstood evolution thats why i stated "over millions of years" countless times regarding this in my initial post.


    Quote Originally Posted by IntrovertedKittenNinja View Post
    Yes, this is just by chance! And it's not exactly a rarity in the universe. Hundreds of planets have been found in the so called "Goldilocks Zone" which is the perfect distance from its sun to harbor life.

    Also, think about it this way-- even if we are a cosmic rarity, the fact that we exist and comprehend that we exist is the only reason we recognize we're a rarity. Otherwise, if we didn't exist, we wouldn't know any better.
    all you touched on was distance from the sun, what about the complexity of planet earth on a whole? yes there are other planets with suitable temperature to harbour life but do they host any complex life no? why because temperature is just one of the many factors that influenced life.

    my friend your reasoning is fail imo, evolution is not by mere chance, The leading mathematicians in the century! met with some evolutionary biologists and confronted them with the fact that according to mathematical statistics, the probabilities of a cell or a protein molecule coming into existence were nil!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. They even constructed a model of a large computer and tried to figure out the possibilities of a cell ever happening The result was zero possibility. this was at Wistar instute.
     
         
    Last edited by ackeem1992; 10-30-2011 at 03:27 AM.

  19. #39
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    Re: religion vs science

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonfly X View Post
    Yes, I am shallow because I have read the bible, Quran, and read up on both Existentialism and Nihilism... So because things are complex you automatically assume there is a bigger meaning. Yes, things are complicated, and things happen to make it seem amazing. But then again, we are pretty uncomplicated, if we bleed, we die. If we are ignorant, we remain ignorant unless we do something about it. Take the universe, the big bang, and all the planets forming. Then think, humans, and you will realize, we aren't that special.
    And the fact that if we didn't have cognitive thought, god wouldn't exist for us. We would be more worried about basic survival instincts than wondering "Does Existence come before Essence" or is it the other way around? The reasons humans believe in a higher power is because we want to matter. No one wants to think "Hey, I will live my life, but it will matter to no one, and nothing will change after I die."
    Religion is the opiate to the masses, you want to believe that in this insignificant planet, that an ultimate, omnipotent, omniscient, and benevolent being existed a priori to our creation just for the sole fact of creating the world, creating us, and then sitting back and governing over us, deciding what is right, wrong, and morally correct?
    If people didn't die, I doubt there would be such a huge deal over religion. There is nothing to fear, nothing in the unknown, we live, and that is it. There is no reason to search for a higher meaning. Why ponder over the fact that we are alive when that is the norm.
    In fact, I struggle to believe that even if some being like that existed, if he would be interested in us anyway. He is all-powerful, yet he wants to play the puppet master and connect the strings to our lives? Our tiny, insignificant, tiny bit of carbon filled being. And that he made us in his image, his image being predominantly male, white, and smart. Which, oh wait, not check, not check, and unfortunately, not all are smart, so not check again.
    So before you go and say I am shallow, perhaps you should explore what you are really believing in, and then question "Am I right?" Am I absolutely sure, that out of millions upon millions, I picked the right choice, if there is even a choice at all..
    And when you can't answer honestly. Then you will perhaps see where we are coming from. Why atheism is what it is. We see through eyes unclouded by what we are told by a book what should be good, and what should be bad. We don't let someone else tell us how we should live, and how to live without angering something that we cannot begin to perceive.
    the sad thing is you only read the bible, and you probably never went past that. and also we don't search for higher meaning, it is right before us, it is science that went searching for a meaning other than whats truly is, and that's GOD!! a lot of people went chasing after science
     
         

  20. #40
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    Re: religion vs science

    Quote Originally Posted by IntrovertedKittenNinja View Post
    Uhhhhhh.

    Really, this is the exact reason why threads that juxtaposition religion and science against each other are always ill-advised.

    You can't argue with religious people like yourself because you all use circular-reasoning to argue.

    God exists because he exists. Or God's rules are the binding law of the universe because God made them.

    For a logical debate that reaches a conclusion to take place, the two debating parties must agree on a set of rules upon which to base their logic. Because this thread spurs on the argument of the existence of a God versus non-existence, and the argument FOR the existence of God is based on the rule that God exists, a debate like this is pointless.

    I can lecture you on how my heart beats because of all kinds of biological mechanisms that evolution over time and such created, but if all you're going to say is, "Wrong, God made your heart.", then it's like arguing that oranges are sour to someone who believes apples are sweet.
    you obviously didn't understand my point

    I'm saying it's not beneficial for us to believe in God because we want to be something more. that's the point I was making. I really don't know where you got all that other stuff
     
         

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