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  1. #21
    I am tthe wind . windrider's Avatar
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    Re: There is such a thing as Devil Fruit Mastery

    I cannot show Akainu imbuing his magma with Haki since most feats are unquantifiable, I can show you another character who imbued Haki into her DF powers though.
    I was not speaking about paramicia or Zoan type ,I was arguing only about Logia type.I am saying that it impossible for a logia user to imbue haki along with his logia attack.

    It is not that it is unquantifiable ,again going back to WB (paramicia) vs Akainu(logia) .white beard was able to quantify his gura gura with Busoshoki Haki .Why any of the logia users been shown to do that.It is impossible or impractical for them to do so . Can you imagine a Busoshoki haki imbued fire or lightning ?

    No, all Busoshoku does so far is to bypass Logia defenses, not nullify, not cancel, not take away. It makes you hit the real person underneath all that power, unless that certain person has trained his DF to the fullest, then he will prove challenging to hit. Ace vs Aokiji ended in a draw, since neither of them hit each other, and I guess Aokiji was giving them a chance to get away. Aokiji wasn't that serious in the war, he's done many deeds worthy of being called a traitor by. Shanks is a known Haki user, but when he met Ace when Ace was captain of the Spade Pirates, did he use Haki to resist the cold? No, he used a parka. Same with Aokiji. It's useless to hit fire with Haki, since all you're doing is trying to attack fire
    Very convincing but also confusing .So you mean to say Busoshoki Haki is affective only against physical attack .do you mean to say busoshoki haki is useless against elemental attacks such as fire or magma ?
    by definition busoshoki is called armament haki .It has proved to be used along with weapons,paramicia and Zoan type abilities .What about logia type .I can clearly see a paradox when I assume that logia users can imbue haki along with their logia abilities .

    Same with Aokiji. It's useless to hit fire with Haki, since all you're doing is trying to attack fire
    Not Haki alone ,Haki imbued with Ice ,That should have bypassed ace's fire because of the haki and frozen Ace because of Haki+Ice.
    If it is useless to use haki against fire,then busoshoki haki is not effective against elemental attacks but it can be used as a countermeasure against a logia form.Aren't those statements 2 contradictory to one another.

    Now imagine if Enel can imbue his lightning with Haki .we can assume that even luffy will be turned to ashes in that case.Applying the same thing to Ace vs Akoji ,Akoji should have bypassed ace's fire .This is why I saying that Haki cannot be imbued with elemental attacks
     
         

  2. #22
    Shitty Chef Love Cook's Avatar
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    Re: There is such a thing as Devil Fruit Mastery

    Quote Originally Posted by EternalMangekyouRinnegan View Post
    Didn't you skip Skypiea? No wonder you're spewing this out..
    just because I forgot about the last episode somehow doesn't mean I saw Enel's overconfident ass getting kicked by small time Luffy.

    Enel showed 0 creativity in trying to beat Luffy, it was electricity over and over again. Only when he attached the ball to Luffy's hand he was able to give luffy a handicap.

    I think even Bellamy was less confident than Enel in his own powers. Most anticlimactic villian in the story so far.


    Quote Originally Posted by Totsuka No Tsurugi View Post
    No man JUST NO!!!!! ace know very well that if he fight akainu he will lose, but he has no choice, because luffy just sit there while akainu go after him he has to save luffy somehow and that's the only way, he never think that just because he was logia type akainu punch will have no effect for him, he knew what will happen and he still do that:shrug:
    No, I was talking about his overconfidence.

    Ace ran back to fight Akianu when he was humilating whitebeard with his little talk. If he just kept walking at the time. All could've been fine. But his "Roger" stuborn nature took over and he choose death.
     
         
    Last edited by Love Cook; 01-20-2012 at 04:49 PM.

  3. #23
    The White Demon Totsuka No Tsurugi's Avatar
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    Re: There is such a thing as Devil Fruit Mastery

    Quote Originally Posted by Love Cook View Post
    No, I was talking about his overconfidence.

    Ace ran back to fight Akianu when he was humilating whitebeard with his little talk. If he just kept walking at the time. All could've been fine. But his "Roger" stuborn nature took over and he choose death.
    overconfidence ? NO

    Stubborn ? YES
     
         

  4. #24
    Pirate Empress Boa Hancock's Avatar
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    Re: There is such a thing as Devil Fruit Mastery

    Quote Originally Posted by windrider View Post
    I was not speaking about paramicia or Zoan type ,I was arguing only about Logia type.I am saying that it impossible for a logia user to imbue haki along with his logia attack.

    It is not that it is unquantifiable ,again going back to WB (paramicia) vs Akainu(logia) .white beard was able to quantify his gura gura with Busoshoki Haki .Why any of the logia users been shown to do that.It is impossible or impractical for them to do so . Can you imagine a Busoshoki haki imbued fire or lightning ?
    And I wonder what makes Logia so special that they can't imbue their attacks. A DF is still a DF no matter what.

    Yes, I can imagine, but like I said, unquantifiable since the only valid Logia match was Ace and Aokiji, and even that wasn't a fight. Akainu didn't have a valid Logia opponent to keep up with him, hence I don't know if he used Haki or not. I'm pretty sure he didn't need Buso though since all his enemies were either non-Logias or Ace.

    Quote Originally Posted by windrider View Post
    Very convincing but also confusing .So you mean to say Busoshoki Haki is affective only against physical attack .do you mean to say busoshoki haki is useless against elemental attacks such as fire or magma ?
    by definition busoshoki is called armament haki .It has proved to be used along with weapons,paramicia and Zoan type abilities .What about logia type .I can clearly see a paradox when I assume that logia users can imbue haki along with their logia abilities .
    No, what I meant was Buso is useless against the elemental attack ITSELF. Like trying to attack Ace's Hiken instead of attacking Ace himself. That's what Aokiji did, don't try to tell me otherwise.

    Paradox? You think the Admirals can't control where they place their armor? Like I said, they haven't had a fight with a logia that can match them yet, so as of now it's impossible to tell. If we see the Akainu vs Aokiji fight and Aokiji's weakness isn't magma, then we'll see right there.

    Quote Originally Posted by windrider View Post
    Not Haki alone ,Haki imbued with Ice ,That should have bypassed ace's fire because of the haki and frozen Ace because of Haki+Ice.
    If it is useless to use haki against fire,then busoshoki haki is not effective against elemental attacks but it can be used as a countermeasure against a logia form.Aren't those statements 2 contradictory to one another.
    I just addressed this above. Those statements aren't contradictory. Wait a second.



    That was what Aokiji was trying to do. If he was serious even a little bit he wouldn't have done that.

    Quote Originally Posted by windrider View Post
    Now imagine if Enel can imbue his lightning with Haki .we can assume that even luffy will be turned to ashes in that case.Applying the same thing to Ace vs Akoji ,Akoji should have bypassed ace's fire .This is why I saying that Haki cannot be imbued with elemental attacks
    And that's why I'm saying you're wrong.
     
         
    Last edited by Boa Hancock; 01-20-2012 at 07:02 PM.

  5. #25
    Pirate Empress Boa Hancock's Avatar
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    Re: There is such a thing as Devil Fruit Mastery

    Quote Originally Posted by wallie20 View Post
    If a person uses Kenbunshoku haki to defend against an attack he hardens his body so that the attack just bounces of his body. The marines were slashed by the attacks so it can't be Kenbunshoku haki.
    You're talking about Busoshoku, Color of Armaments.
     
         

  6. #26
    Remember the name wallie20's Avatar
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    Re: There is such a thing as Devil Fruit Mastery

    Quote Originally Posted by Boa Hancock View Post
    Instead of talking about Haki, let's talk about Devil Fruits. For starters, what are they?


    The first possibility would be that he used his Kenbunshoku (CoO) Haki to sense the attack. It would have been fine, except that he never anticipated the attack at all, as evidenced by the line "So you two are Haki users."

    The second possibility would be that Akainu has trained his Haki to the extent of applying logia defense unconsciously.
    It can't be Busoshoku haki because Busoshoku haki hardens the user's body so that the attacks that are directed to them bounce off the user's body but akainu and aokiji were slashed by the WB pirates attacks.
     
         

  7. #27
    Remember the name wallie20's Avatar
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    Re: There is such a thing as Devil Fruit Mastery

    Quote Originally Posted by Boa Hancock View Post
    You're talking about Busoshoku, Color of Armaments.
    Yea my bad
     
         

  8. #28
    Pirate Empress Boa Hancock's Avatar
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    Re: There is such a thing as Devil Fruit Mastery

    Quote Originally Posted by wallie20 View Post
    It can't be Busoshoku haki because Busoshoku haki hardens the user's body so that the attacks that are directed to them bounce off the user's body but akainu and aokiji were slashed by the WB pirates attacks.
    I just said Haki. Wherever in that statement have I said anything about Busoshoku? Besides, stop talking about Haki already. It's getting kinda irritating.

    EDIT: Okay, the reason why I talked about Kenbun in that statement since the whole "DF defense without Haki" shindig isn't gonna fly with everyone here. Everyone thinks Haki is OP's Sharingan, which is false, since everyone has it. That's why I just implied Kenbun in that statement, since I say it can be used in conjunction with unconscious logia defense. Same with Buso, except that it wouldn't make sense for a logia to give up DF dispersion in favor of a shield made out of will.
     
         
    Last edited by Boa Hancock; 01-20-2012 at 10:21 PM.

  9. #29
    I am tthe wind . windrider's Avatar
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    Re: There is such a thing as Devil Fruit Mastery

    Quote Originally Posted by Boa Hancock View Post
    And I wonder what makes Logia so special that they can't imbue their attacks. A DF is still a DF no matter what.

    Yes, I can imagine, but like I said, unquantifiable since the only valid Logia match was Ace and Aokiji, and even that wasn't a fight. Akainu didn't have a valid Logia opponent to keep up with him, hence I don't know if he used Haki or not. I'm pretty sure he didn't need Buso though since all his enemies were either non-Logias or Ace.
    you yourself have said answer ,logia's elemental attacks can't be quantified like a paramicia's and zoan type.You can imbue buso haki only with physical attacks and elements that are gross in nature .
    Boss pistal kiss of boa is a physical attack ,not an elemental attack .she was able to use slave arrow to turn even cannon to stones,perfume fuer to turn a part of a body to stone even if they don't have a attraction for her .

    what about her merro merro mellow cause that is a wave which cannot be quantified.
    If we apply the same logic u suggested ,she can use merro mero mellow + Busohaki to turn everything to stone irrespective of whether something or someone have attraction for her or not.
    why could not she do it ?

    so pistal kiss (quantifiable),slave arrow(again quantifiable),swords,arrows ,physical attacks quantifiable and hence buso haki could be imbued but what about radiation,waves,lasers ,fire ,ice ,magma's fluid attacks ? they can't be imbued with buso haki cause of the same reason you yourself have mentioned .
    If Akoji uses a ice spear or something ,It is quantifiable and hence buso haki can be imbued but what about Akoji elemental attacks like freezing ?

    No, what I meant was Buso is useless against the elemental attack ITSELF
    I got your point ,so busoshoki haki is useless against elemental attacks.is that what you are concluding Boa ?In that case say Enel fights akainu who has Busoshoki haki , Enel's lightning would still be able to damage Akainu even if akainu covers himself with Busoshoki Haki .As per your own statement
    Akainu and Akoji are still vulnerable to lightning(elemental attack)
     
         
    Last edited by windrider; 01-21-2012 at 07:18 AM.

  10. #30
    Smiling Assassin s0ulja's Avatar
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    Re: There is such a thing as Devil Fruit Mastery

    Quote Originally Posted by Totsuka No Tsurugi View Post
    overconfidence ? NO

    Stubborn ? YES
    that ^
    he never backed away from a challenge no matter the odds, just like his father
     
         

  11. #31
    Senior Member Brucewen001's Avatar
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    Re: There is such a thing as Devil Fruit Mastery

    It's like some PART of tangibility technique of Tobi... Unless he solidify himself he can't attack...(only this part,don't mistake it with whole Coz with haki you can attack intangible logia but no attack will work on intangible tobi unless he runs out his time limit that is 5 min according to konan)) That's how unless logia get into physical form they can't use haki imbued attacks...the theory you are talking about ,is how well he can use his logia... It's his mastery over his df...
    I am afraid I made it more complicated ...but try to understand...
     
         

  12. #32
    Pirate Empress Boa Hancock's Avatar
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    Re: There is such a thing as Devil Fruit Mastery

    Quote Originally Posted by windrider View Post
    you yourself have said answer ,logia's elemental attacks can't be quantified like a paramicia's and zoan type.You can imbue buso haki only with physical attacks and elements that are gross in nature .
    Boss pistal kiss of boa is a physical attack ,not an elemental attack .she was able to use slave arrow to turn even cannon to stones,perfume fuer to turn a part of a body to stone even if they don't have a attraction for her .

    what about her merro merro mellow cause that is a wave which cannot be quantified.
    If we apply the same logic u suggested ,she can use merro mero mellow + Busohaki to turn everything to stone irrespective of whether something or someone have attraction for her or not.
    why could not she do it ?
    For the last time, don't make conclusions about Logia DFs. If Buso was so useless for Logias I doubt the Admirals learned it then. I said Pistol Kiss was quantifiable since it was separate from her body, Luffy's demonstrated the skill of limiting Buso to an area of his body. We haven't seen even one Logia do it yet, even evidence points that if Luffy, a rookie can do it, what more an Admiral.

    Why would she put a shield over Mero Mero Merrow? It's not a physical attack, it doesn't damage anyone, and I'm sure as heck Busoshoku Haki doesn't NEGATE DF powers. Why would you assume that imbuing that wave would make the attack invincible, and that only another Haki user is able to block it? By your logic Momonga should have blocked it since he's a Haki user, but no he didn't, he stabbed his hand.

    By now I'm pretty sure Buso only conjures a shield on anything it's imbued on or being coated upon. Which means coating your hand makes you hit a logia, which means coating Aokiji's Pheasant Beak means Akainu gets hit, cold and all, which means Akainu's Dai Funka ensures Crocodile is hit, heat and all. It's just that and no more.

    Quote Originally Posted by windrider View Post
    so pistal kiss (quantifiable),slave arrow(again quantifiable),swords,arrows ,physical attacks quantifiable and hence buso haki could be imbued but what about radiation,waves,lasers ,fire ,ice ,magma's fluid attacks ? they can't be imbued with buso haki cause of the same reason you yourself have mentioned .
    If Akoji uses a ice spear or something ,It is quantifiable and hence buso haki can be imbued but what about Akoji elemental attacks like freezing ?
    I think you didn't understand me. I said it was useless to imbue Haki to an attack that ATTACKS THE ELEMENT ITSELF. Aokiji wasn't aiming for Ace, he aimed at the fire, what use will that give Aokiji to attack the fire with Haki? Getting Buso doesn't mean you can magically hold fire in your hand all of a sudden.

    If Aokiji uses Buso on say Ice Time, then theoretically a Logia won't break out since there is a shield coating the ice preventing him from melting, destroying, absorbing the ice, unless the Logia is a Haki user too. I prefer to think of Busoshoku as a shield of equal size, shape, and durability between every user. The difference would be mastery, application, and the magnitude of the original attack. It doesn't work that way with Boa's Mero though, since the pre-requisite of that beam is that you fall in love with her, which I'm pretty sure doesn't need Busoshoku.

    Quote Originally Posted by windrider View Post
    I got your point ,so busoshoki haki is useless against elemental attacks.is that what you are concluding Boa ?In that case say Enel fights akainu who has Busoshoki haki , Enel's lightning would still be able to damage Akainu even if akainu covers himself with Busoshoki Haki .As per your own statement
    Akainu and Akoji are still vulnerable to lightning(elemental attack)
    Yes, that would work since Enel would be trying to hit them, not their attacks. If Akainu had Busoshoku on him against Enel's imbued El Thor and doesn't do anything but lets himself get hit then yes, Akainu would be fried.

    Except that you cannot really apply that in the Enel thread if that's your goal since Enel doesn't have Busoshoku so far, and the Admirals have Kenbun too, so it's a moot point.
     
         

  13. #33
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    Re: There is such a thing as Devil Fruit Mastery

    Quote Originally Posted by Boa Hancock View Post
    I just said Haki. Wherever in that statement have I said anything about Busoshoku? Besides, stop talking about Haki already. It's getting kinda irritating.

    EDIT: Okay, the reason why I talked about Kenbun in that statement since the whole "DF defense without Haki" shindig isn't gonna fly with everyone here. Everyone thinks Haki is OP's Sharingan, which is false, since everyone has it. That's why I just implied Kenbun in that statement, since I say it can be used in conjunction with unconscious logia defense. Same with Buso, except that it wouldn't make sense for a logia to give up DF dispersion in favor of a shield made out of will.
    If you don't want to talk about haki wth is the point of this thread?
     
         

  14. #34
    I am tthe wind . windrider's Avatar
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    Re: There is such a thing as Devil Fruit Mastery

    Quote Originally Posted by Boa Hancock View Post
    For the last time, don't make conclusions about Logia DFs. If Buso was so useless for Logias I doubt the Admirals learned it then. I said Pistol Kiss was quantifiable since it was separate from her body, Luffy's demonstrated the skill of limiting Buso to an area of his body. We haven't seen even one Logia do it yet, even evidence points that if Luffy, a rookie can do it, what more an Admiral.

    Why would she put a shield over Mero Mero Merrow? It's not a physical attack, it doesn't damage anyone, and I'm sure as heck Busoshoku Haki doesn't NEGATE DF powers. Why would you assume that imbuing that wave would make the attack invincible, and that only another Haki user is able to block it? By your logic Momonga should have blocked it since he's a Haki user, but no he didn't, he stabbed his hand.

    By now I'm pretty sure Buso only conjures a shield on anything it's imbued on or being coated upon. Which means coating your hand makes you hit a logia, which means coating Aokiji's Pheasant Beak means Akainu gets hit, cold and all, which means Akainu's Dai Funka ensures Crocodile is hit, heat and all. It's just that and no more.



    I think you didn't understand me. I said it was useless to imbue Haki to an attack that ATTACKS THE ELEMENT ITSELF. Aokiji wasn't aiming for Ace, he aimed at the fire, what use will that give Aokiji to attack the fire with Haki? Getting Buso doesn't mean you can magically hold fire in your hand all of a sudden.

    If Aokiji uses Buso on say Ice Time, then theoretically a Logia won't break out since there is a shield coating the ice preventing him from melting, destroying, absorbing the ice, unless the Logia is a Haki user too. I prefer to think of Busoshoku as a shield of equal size, shape, and durability between every user. The difference would be mastery, application, and the magnitude of the original attack. It doesn't work that way with Boa's Mero though, since the pre-requisite of that beam is that you fall in love with her, which I'm pretty sure doesn't need Busoshoku.



    Yes, that would work since Enel would be trying to hit them, not their attacks. If Akainu had Busoshoku on him against Enel's imbued El Thor and doesn't do anything but lets himself get hit then yes, Akainu would be fried.

    Except that you cannot really apply that in the Enel thread if that's your goal since Enel doesn't have Busoshoku so far, and the Admirals have Kenbun too, so it's a moot point.
    very nice Boa sama,I agree to all u have said but I still didn't get the difference between perfume feur where Boa applied haki in her feets + DF ability to hit the pacifistas and convert them partially to stone and merro merro mellow A wave attack ,If she can imbue the wave ,she would have been able to convert everyone to stone right like the way she did with slave arrow and perfume feur irrespective of whether one was attracted towards her or not.
    And also can u tell me if it is possible to imbue buso haki with an unquantifiable object such as a wave ,laser,lightning,the fire ,magma etc ?
     
         

  15. #35
    Pirate Empress Boa Hancock's Avatar
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    Re: There is such a thing as Devil Fruit Mastery

    Quote Originally Posted by wallie20 View Post
    If you don't want to talk about haki wth is the point of this thread?
    The point is that there is such a thing as Devil Fruit Mastery, simple as that. Not everything is Haki.

    Quote Originally Posted by windrider View Post
    very nice Boa sama,I agree to all u have said but I still didn't get the difference between perfume feur where Boa applied haki in her feets + DF ability to hit the pacifistas and convert them partially to stone and merro merro mellow A wave attack ,If she can imbue the wave ,she would have been able to convert everyone to stone right like the way she did with slave arrow and perfume feur irrespective of whether one was attracted towards her or not.
    And also can u tell me if it is possible to imbue buso haki with an unquantifiable object such as a wave ,laser,lightning,the fire ,magma etc ?
    Er, the Perfume Femurs Boa executed in the war didn't have Haki. The only time she showed it was when she attacked Smoker, and Smokey didn't turn to stone. Granted it was a generic attack but still.

    That's why I said if she can imbue the wave, which I doubt since you don't need Buso for things like that. The pre-requisite is to be attracted to her, no DF defense is gonna protect you from that.

    I can't really derive a conclusion until any Haki-using Logia goes all out against another.
     
         

  16. #36
    Whiskey & Painkillers Black-Star's Avatar
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    Re: There is such a thing as Devil Fruit Mastery

    I agree but luffy scares me i hope he doesn't do that thing every time it scares the sh*t outta me...
     
         

  17. #37
    Remember the name wallie20's Avatar
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    Re: There is such a thing as Devil Fruit Mastery

    Quote Originally Posted by Boa Hancock View Post
    The point is that there is such a thing as Devil Fruit Mastery, simple as that. Not everything is Haki.



    Er, the Perfume Femurs Boa executed in the war didn't have Haki. The only time she showed it was when she attacked Smoker, and Smokey didn't turn to stone. Granted it was a generic attack but still.

    That's why I said if she can imbue the wave, which I doubt since you don't need Buso for things like that. The pre-requisite is to be attracted to her, no DF defense is gonna protect you from that.

    I can't really derive a conclusion until any Haki-using Logia goes all out against another.
    If that was your point then yes.. it's possible to master your devil fruit..
     
         
    Last edited by wallie20; 01-21-2012 at 06:05 PM.

  18. #38
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    Re: There is such a thing as Devil Fruit Mastery

    Quote Originally Posted by Boa Hancock View Post
    The point is that there is such a thing as Devil Fruit Mastery, simple as that. Not everything is Haki.



    Er, the Perfume Femurs Boa executed in the war didn't have Haki. The only time she showed it was when she attacked Smoker, and Smokey didn't turn to stone. Granted it was a generic attack but still.

    That's why I said if she can imbue the wave, which I doubt since you don't need Buso for things like that. The pre-requisite is to be attracted to her, no DF defense is gonna protect you from that.

    I can't really derive a conclusion until any Haki-using Logia goes all out against another.
    for perfume feur or slave arrow ,attraction is not a prerequisite but for for merro merro mellow attraction is a prerequisite .I thought perfume feur was used along with the haki to turn even inanimate objects like sword to stone..Am I wrong in my understanding ?

    Also we can't conclude if they can imbue their haki in a wave or something like a laser .Is that what you mean to say ?
     
         
    Last edited by windrider; 01-21-2012 at 05:06 PM.

  19. #39
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    Re: There is such a thing as Devil Fruit Mastery

    Quote Originally Posted by Boa Hancock View Post
    I know it's common sense, but lately all of the people here are talking Haki sense and Logia sense and Vice Admiral sense instead of common sense.
    Well that cant be helped. First off common sense is not a common thing especially for people majority of people on this site and haki logia and vice admirals are gonna be thr talk of everybody since thats the hot new thing out right now.
     
         

  20. #40
    Academy Student Marco the Phoenix's Avatar
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    Re: There is such a thing as Devil Fruit Mastery

    I think windrider has a point. according to Boa's theory, Kizaru should have been able to simply fry rayleigh with Haki-enhanced yasakani no magatama or laser beams; yet this did not happen. Instead, kizaru engaged him in a deul using a sword of light; which means the sword was obviously coated with COA haki.This is only because the sword was used like any ordinary weapon. Again, in Marineford, the fact that kizaru had to block Marco's haki-kick means logia users CAN NOT use their DFs and COA haki simultaneously. If you ask me why Kizaru tried to attack Whitebeard then, I would say the situation was different. It was a fierce, all out decisive war, and kizaru wanted to keep marines' casualties low; so he tried anyway. There is also an important fact that Kizaru may wanted to exploit: haki is affected by health conditions of the user. It was made clear when Whitebeard did not predict Squard's stab, could not use COA haki to defend against Akainu's first punch-which made the first hole in his torso- and later, he tried to use COC haki to save Ace, yet failed.
    As for what Boa stated: "COA haki can not stop logia elements themselves" you should remember that Whitebeard received Akainu's Ryusei Kazan head-on, and the only dammage it did is burning the former's mustache.
    Regarding pramecia class DFs, COA haki can only be used to enhance the strength of the attack. It do not improve the abilities or qualities of the said fruits. thus, boa hancock DF abilities-except mero mero mellow- enables her to petrify anything -living or not living-regardless if she uses haki or not.
     
         

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