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    Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    thank you for the thanked posts and +reps guys, i didnt respond to everyone who posted but if i agreed with you or liked what you said i definently gave you a +rep. thanks again.

    i will rep you if you read this all. if i dont like you tho i will neg you. fair warning.

    This morning there has been alot of confusion brought up about Sasuke's ability to use Tsukuyomi. I was suprised to see that even though the latest manga ch.585 clearly shows Sasuke using Tsukuyomi noobs have crawled out of the dirt crevices to say Sasuke never has used it nor has it. Something that was also brought up was the orgin of Sasuke's Amaterasu, again i was suprised to see these noobs saying that Sasuke received Amaterasu from Itachi. These two things should not be argued nor even discussed. They are a given, basic knowledge received by reading the manga even if you had basic reading comprehension.

    I'm going to clear things up in this thread and will use facts and evidence from the manga to support my claims. I will make it as easy to understand for you guys, especially for those of you who fail to understand the manga.. im just going to talk about Tsukiyomi tho and clear up on Amaterasu in some other thread some other time when i feel like it.....

    Tsukuyomi Naruto.wiki

    http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Tsukuyomi

    above is the link that explains what the jutsu Tsukuyomi is in Naruto.wiki. Now some of you will argue that "anybody can edit wiki". fact of the matter is that wiki is backed up with evidence from the manga, they reference from the manga.

    on Naruto wiki it says that Sasuke is a user of the Tsukiyomi. Now some of you will say, "well show me when he used it".

    I will show you

    and naru wiki also says that one cannot have Sasunoo without first having Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu. Sasuke did say that one needed both MS eyes

    What Does Tsukuyomi Looks Like?

    First we have to be able to identify what Tsukuyomi looks like. No one will argue that Itachi has used Tsukuyomi multiple times so i will use his as an example

    First time Tsukuyomi is ever used:





    now important things to notice in these pics is that:

    -Itachi said that only someone of the same blood as him (a Uchiha clan member or family relative) has a chance of countering or cancelling the Tsukiyomi.
    -Itachi can control space and time. everything in the realm of his Tsukiyomi is under his control
    -the background is black and white. this characteristic is only associated when using the genjutsu that is Tsukiyomi and no other type of genjutsu.

    the last fact is the most important fact, the others i will bring up again but the 3rd one is crucial.

    2nd Time We've witnessed Tsukiyomi




    -Now this time Itachi NEVER SAYS TSUKIYOMI! For those of you think that the words "tsukiyomi" have to be present whenever the jutsu is being used, you have just seen a time in the actual manga where the words arent present. which means just because "tsukiyomi" isnt said doesnt mean the genjutsu isnt Tsukiyomi!
    -We still recognize it as Tsukiyomi because of the black and white background characteristic that is only associated with Tsukiyomi

    Something that we should take note on also is that Tsukiyomi destroys a persons will as mentioned and noted by Kisame. this is evident when we see the after affect of both Kakashi and Sasuke after being victims to Tsukiyomi


    Third Time Tsukiyomi being used in the manga




    -AGAIN THE WORDS TSUKIYOMI ARE NOT PRESENT, only the words Mangekyo Sharingan was written but we all know to use Tsukiyomi one needs the MS..
    -AGAIN, no one will argue that Itachi was using Tsukiyomi because 1. we again see the black and white background and 2. he was using MS. mind you MS never shown when he used Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu when he visited the leaf. this is the first time we see what an MS looks like but the 3rd time witnessing Tsukiyomi

    4th Time now







    -Itachi is activating Tsukiyomi with his LEFT EYE! this is the very first time we witness exactly which eye Itachi uses Tsukiyomi with-AGAIN!! Itachi is using Tsukiyomi but the words are not present. what makes it obvious is that Itachi MS is activated.
    -now i did not post all of the pages that included what happened while Itachi activated his Tsukiyomi but at first it doesnt seem like a Tsukiyomi. because the black and white background is not present at first. it becomes clear that it is tsukiyomi near the end of the jutsu when Sasuke cancels it with his own sharingan
    -we can tell that the genjutsu was Tsukiyomi all along because it turns black and white. Zetsu who is witnessing the fight confirms that Itachi was using Tsukiyomi and confirms that Sasuke cancelled it on his own accord as seen below. (Itach also confirms he was using Tsukiyomi even though at first the background wasnt black and white and he didnt announce that he was using it before using it. Itachi again confirms he was using Tsukiyomi in page 16 even though at first the background wasnt black and white and he didnt say Tsukiyomi)




    5th time



    -Itachi is obviously using Tsukiyomi. the black and white is evident and so is MS. Sasuke in the other hand has "genjutsu sharingan" in his panel and doesnt create a black and white background. its argueable that his genjutsu is not Tsukiyomi and some of you are saying that but just because it doesnt say Tsukiyomi in his panel doesnt not mean it is not Tsukiyomi, nor does it mean that Sasuke has never used it or cannot use it.

    an explanation for that panel is that Sasuke is using his variation of Tsukiyomi, a weaker version perhaps. we know Itachi is far better at genjutsu than Sasuke, but on the other hand Sasuke is far better at using Amaterasu than Itachi is and has created variations of Amaterasu and Amaterasu based jutsus like he has with his chidoris.

    the fact that it says "genjutsu sharingan" in Sasuke panel doesnt mean hes using an unnamed genjutsu. besides it would contradict the panel picture. we know Itachi uses Tsukiyomi in his left eye. Sasuke is uses Tsukiyomi in his right, plus Sasuke has his EMS activated, plus on top of that he has Itachi's eyes so to conclude that his genjutsu is not Tsukiyomi, a variation of Tsukiyomi, or to say that he cant use Tsukiyomi when he has Itachi eyes, or never has is a ridiculous conclusion to make

    i will furthur support this claim with the next examples of Sasuke using Tsukiyomi or what is likely to be Tsukiyomi or a weaker version:


    real quick tho- to understand what makes a genjutsu Tsukiyomi and not Tsukiyomi. these are characterstics of genjutsus that are obviously nor Tsukiyomi by Itachi:
    Now that we know the characteristics of a MS Tsukiyomi let us compare it to Itachi's other type of genjutsus

    Itachi's other genjutsus (not Tsukiyomi)



    this is a genjutsu that Itachi uses by pointing a finger. Itachi is able to cast a genjutsu by just pointing a finger. this was agasint Naruto when he was trying to save Gaara. the characteristics of this genjutsu is seen in the next chapter, heres the link, http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/259 but the back ground is not black and white and Itachi MS is not activated which means this is obviously not Tsukiyomi.




    this is just a regular sharingan genjutsu. Itachi used this on Kakashi when the Leaf ninjas were after Gaara. Itachi could not use MS cuz he was fighting with limited chakra. since he couldnt use MS, it means he couldnt use Tsukiyomi. and as you can see this genjutsu does not have the same characteristics as a Tsukiyomi where the background turns black and white.



    crow sharingan genjutsu. Itachi casting a genjutsu by surrounding you with flying crows that possess sharingans. used on Naruto when he was looking for Sasuke. again no MS and no black and white so we know its not Tsukiyomi.


    Sasuke evidence for using Tsukiyomi

    First time Sasuke is using genjutsu with an MS





    -this is the first time Sasuke is using a genjutsu while having the MS. he used genjutsu before on Deidara, and Orochimaru, even Manda (Oro summon snake). but Sasuke using a genjutsu while having MS makes it a posibility for it being Tsukiyomi
    -now this is arueable that its not Tsukiyomi. as i have stated much earlier Tsukiyomi was a genjutsu that broke ones will, tortured someone. here we see Sasuke casting a genjutsu that allows him to find information from his target
    -but than again this genjutsu uses the MS and it focuses on Sasukes right eye and that is his Tsukiyomi eye since his Amaterasu eye is his left eye.
    -there is no black and white background so its very plausible that this isnt Tsukiyomi but you cant ignore it being a MS genjutsu. just because this isnt Tsukiyomi doensnt mean Sasuke cant use it. maybe this is Sasukes variation of it since its MS but i honestly doubt it. i think its a MS genjutsu specific to Sasuke that allows him to receive info
    -he uses this again agaisnt a Zetsu clone. link: http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/574/11

    Tsukiyomi is obvious here




    -this is when Sasuke was fighting Bee.
    -fact: Sasuke is using his right MS to use Tsukiyomi. he uses his left eye to use Amaterasu. just like Itachi uses his right eye for Tsukiyomi and his right for Amaterasu.
    -many of you tried to use this to say "where did Sasuke say Tsukiyomi?"... youre trying to argue that because Sasuke did not say "tsukiyomi" that it is not that justsu. well considering that Itachi used Tsukiyomi 5 times in the manga and 3/5 times he didnt even say Tsukiyomi makes your question and arguement both irrelevant and invalid in other words Sasuke does not have to say Tsukiyomi for it to be so
    -the background is black and white!!!!! its Tsukiyomi because everytime Itachi used it it was black and white
    -i do not doubt that this is Tsukiyomi and you shouldnt either

    now Kakashi had pointed out that once in Tsukiyomi one cannot cancel it. Itachi pointed out that one of his bloodline can only cancel Tsukiyomi, which Sasuke did. but Bee cancelled Sasukes Tsukiyomi. some of you may say that it cant be Tsukiyomi because Bee cancelled it and it would contradict Itachi and Kakashi. well Sasuke is weaker at genjutsus than Itachi and cannot control time and space so it just may make it easier for Bee to break. simple explanation. its just like how Itachi said Sasuke had to kill his bestfriend to get MS but yet Sasuke didnt do that, Kakashi sure as hell didnt do that but yet they both aquired MS...


    Kakashi says the Tsukiyomi cannot be cancelled out




    Sasuke's Itachi genjutsu




    -Sasuke used genjutsu on Danzo to make it seem Itachi had appeared.
    -there is no black and white so one can argue that it isnt Tsukiyomi
    -Sasuke is using his MS however, its a MS based genjutsu. and Danzo is comparing it to Itachis genjutsu which can control time and space. Sasukes MS genjutsu just may be a weaker version of what Itachi can do. this is a possibility and shouldnt be ignored.
    -Sasuke not saying Tsukiyomi doesnt mean shit. Itachi didnt say Tsukiyomi most times he used it either.

    Sasukes genjutsu that defeats Danzo




    -here we see black and white. background. Tsukiyomi?
    -Tobi is again comparing Sasukes genjutsu to Itachis. they may be compared because they are the same jutsus but of different strengths or variations
    -Sasuke is using his right MS eye to cast the genjutsu which is his Tsukiyomi eye because his left is Amaterasu
    -Tsukiyomi isnt said but i have already stated that that doesnt matter.
    -the genjutsu wasnt used to torture Danzo, but it may be that Sasukes version of Tsukiyomi is not good for torturing but for allowing Sasuke moments of a slight advantage. nobody said Sasukes Tsukiyomi has to be the exact same as Itachi. their Amaterasus are not the same and their Sasunoos sure as hell arent the same so they can have different ways of using Tsukiyomi as well



    Conclusion and Summary

    the arguements for Sasuke not using Tsukiyomi or not having Tsukiyomi were that he never said "Tsukiyomi". i posted all the times Itachi has used Tsukiyomi and 3/5 times, the majority of the time i should say, Itachi didnt say "Tsukiyomi either.

    an arguement that Sasuke can use Tsukiyomi and has in the past is:

    1. he has MS ("but Kakashi has MS too" thats what you noobs want to say right? but Kakashi isnt a Uchiha)
    2. naruto wiki says so
    3. he has Sasunoo, in wiki it says that you need Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu to use Sasunoo. what that means is that you need both LEFT AND RIGHT MS EYES TO USE SASUNOO. since Amaterasu is dominant on 1 eye (Itachis right, Sasukes left) and Tsukiyomi is dominant on the other (Itachis left, Sasukes right) than that means having both Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu is needed for Sasunoo. Sasunoo is called the 3rd MS jutsu anyways. how can it be the 3rd if you cant get the 1st being Tsukiyomi and 2nd Amaterasu.?
    4. when he fought agaisnt Bee the genjutsu he used had a black and white background. that is a characteristic of Tsukiyomi
    5. when he fought Danzo his genjutsu was being compared to Itachis tsukuyomi. thats because Danzo and Tobi were comparing the level of how both Itachi and Sasuke can use it. also Danzo had a black and white background
    6. it logically makes no sense for Sasuke to have Amaterasu, Sasunoo and not Tsukiyomi when those three are the basic MS jutsus!
    7. Sasuke now has Itachis eyes so being able to use Tsukiyomi is a given! thats like Kakashi getting Obitos eye but yet he cant activate the sharingan or Danzo getting Shisuis eye and he cant use the genjutsu to control other people. noobs
    8. some of you may argue that Sasuke's genjutsus look nothing like Itachis. well thats because Danzo and Tobi stated that Itachi is better at Tsukiyomi than Sasuke. also every sharingan user is different. Sasukes Amaterasus have variations and Sasuke is far better at manipulating his Amaterasus than Itachi was. so Itach is better at manipulating his genjutsu and Tsukiyomi than Sasuke is. they also have very different kinds of Sasunoos. the point is Sasukes Tsukiyomi may be just allow him to gain information from targets and use for only a few seconds like what he did to Danzo while Itachis Tsukiyomi can control the length of time and space and Itachi has complete utter control of the realm of his Tsukiyomi. different eyes different versions.
    9. when the panel in ch. 585 says "genjutsu sharingan" its obviously not just a regular sharingan genjutsu because Sasukes EMS is activated, his right one, thats his Tsukiyomi eye.


    now at the end i'd like to give a shout out to Natsuu for being a noob and making a thread that said Sasuke couldnt use Tsukiyomi. thank you for neg repping me when i told you wrong. shout out to the other noobs that had agreed with him. this ones for you guys that cant comprehend Naruto.
     
         
    Last edited by NarutoVsGoku; 05-15-2012 at 09:00 PM.

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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    Wall of text.. I..SHALL NOT...READ!
     
         

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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    No offense but it will be hard for others to read the WHOLE thing.
     
         

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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    Read up until you said he has always had it, then stopped. I already agree with you.
     
         

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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    you can avoid a flame war if you don't sound insulting by calling people noobs and saying "for those who don't understand the manga "

    people are just speculating and no one ( not even you) apart from the author has complete and correct knowledge of naruto world

    however i do think that sasuke has tsukoyomi which is just an inferior version of itachi's tsukoyomi.
    after all sasuke has ability to manipulate amaterasu better than itachi
    it is like one brother is better at one jutsu than the other
     
         
    Last edited by lol99; 05-10-2012 at 07:40 AM.

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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinnister View Post
    No offense but it will be hard for others to read the WHOLE thing.
    true.. for those who take it seriously will read. for those who dont i summarized it at the bottom
     
         

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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    I agree,
    i skimmed it and pictures were pretty convincing.
     
         

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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    Quote Originally Posted by Necromancer4276 View Post
    Read up until you said he has always had it, then stopped. I already agree with you.
    yea just now saw the thread you made earlier. i agree with you too.. and i agree on what you said about Amaterasu..

    i cant believe some people think that Sasuke gained his Amaterasu from Itachi...

    i will have to adress that too
     
         

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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    read it all i agree +rep
     
         

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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    I won't believe that Sasuke has Tsukuyomi until I see/hear him say it.
     
         

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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    I already believed he had it. Well played.
     
         

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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    Quote Originally Posted by MrNarutoBase View Post
    I won't believe that Sasuke has Tsukuyomi until I see/hear him say it.
    than you are willingyl being ignorant and a fool cuz i have shown that Itachi did not say Tsukiyomi the majority of times when he used it. by your logic you must think Itachi has not used it on those occasions.

    also like i said the black and white background is a characteristic of Tsukiyomi and Sasuke has done genjutsu with that background more than once.
     
         

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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    Quote Originally Posted by NarutoVsGoku View Post
    yea just now saw the thread you made earlier. i agree with you too.. and i agree on what you said about Amaterasu..

    i cant believe some people think that Sasuke gained his Amaterasu from Itachi...

    i will have to adress that too
    Thanks! Wow, i never thought someone would actually go back and read my stuff. Haha. I just read the whole thing and you said exactly what i was half-assed trying to explain to these people and more! Haha. ++rep
     
         

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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    nicely done....
     
         

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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    Quote Originally Posted by Necromancer4276 View Post
    Thanks! Wow, i never thought someone would actually go back and read my stuff. Haha. I just read the whole thing and you said exactly what i was half-assed trying to explain to these people and more! Haha. ++rep
    yea i wanted to be very thurogh with this and it took me awhile to make this thread. i saw way too many arguements about this today and it pissed me off

    btw i stumbled upon your thread by accident, i saw you post it in another thread but we touched based on the same things.

    one thing though i forgot to mention is that Sasuke couldnt have used Tsukiyomi on C because his MS wasnt activated. he used a regular sharingan. i was checking the whole manga for MS activated genjutsus and i rememeber when Sasuke used a genjutsus on C and saw it wasnt MS based.

    but he definently used it on the Cloud fodder ninja, Bee and Danzo, i would even say Itachi in ch585
     
         

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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    Quote Originally Posted by NarutoVsGoku View Post
    yea i wanted to be very thurogh with this and it took me awhile to make this thread. i saw way too many arguements about this today and it pissed me off

    btw i stumbled upon your thread by accident, i saw you post it in another thread but we touched based on the same things.

    one thing though i forgot to mention is that Sasuke couldnt have used Tsukiyomi on C because his MS wasnt activated. he used a regular sharingan. i was checking the whole manga for MS activated genjutsus and i rememeber when Sasuke used a genjutsus on C and saw it wasnt MS based.

    but he definently used it on the Cloud fodder ninja, Bee and Danzo, i would even say Itachi in ch585
    Huh. You're right. I guess i just assumed he used it then because most of that fight was with susano'o and mangekyou, and C was paralyzed afterwards.
     
         

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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    Damn good job props dude
     
         

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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    Good job + rep
     
         

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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    Read the first paragraph and lost interest. Not only are you wrong you made your self seem more stupid calling the people who are correct noobs. Sasuke doesnt have tsukuyomi and tbh this chapter has made it very clear, although the previous showed aswell. Anyway where do i start. Never in the manga was it said that you need tsukuyomi and amaterasu to use susano, but instead you need to have mastered both the ms to use susano;



    "Only those who control the double ms can use this power". Double ms meaning those who have gained control of both ms eye techniques can use those power.
    Next question what control has itachi got from both ms eyes.

    Well Itachi's amaterasu comes from his right eye;


    Itachi holds his left eye after tsukuyomi. Tsukuyomi comes from his left eye;



    And zetsu basically confirms it here. His left eye posses the strongest genjutsu, whilst his right eye posses the strongest physical attack;



    Sasuke one is different somewhat and opposite.

    He has amaterasu in his left eye;


    And some form of sharingan genjutsu in his right eye;




    So as its been said you need mastery of both eyes in order to use susano.
    Itach has mastery in both eyes, meaning he can high level techniques such as tsukuyomi and amaterasu.

    Sasuke before bee's fight had no mastery at all. He gained mastery when he first used amaterasu and then was able to extinguish it, something itachi has already shown. But you see sasuke didnt have mastery of the double ms yet because his right which supposedly contained tsukuyomi wasnt mastery enough to gain him control of both the double ms and effectively susano.

    So the question is, what mastery did sasuke have other the double ms (right eye) for him to use susano. The answer is BLAZE RELEASE. Sasuke with his mastery over the double ms controls amaterasu with his right eye;




    Even the latest chapter shouldve made it clear Itachi uses his right eye for amaterasu and sasuke uses his left. Also note that because both use the same technique its been called amaterasu for BOTH;


    Itachi uses his left eye for TSUKUYOMI and sasuke uses his right for SHARINGAN GENJUTSU. As you can see in the first image above both said amaterasu when they used it. In the second image both said completely different technique's. Itachi said tsukuyomi and sasuke said sharingan genjutsu, even if he had the ms activated it was a sharingan genjutsu that was broken by bee and danzo and not tsukuyomi;


    Next time you decide to inform people atleast know what you are talking about
     
         
    Last edited by Blaze Release; 05-10-2012 at 09:09 AM.

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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    read it all, and i agree with most of it. I also think Blaze Release has got a point though.

    Itachi
    left eye: mastery of tsukuyomi
    left eye: space-time manipulation
    right eye: mastery of amaterasu

    Sasuke
    right eye: mastery of tsukuyomi
    right eye: elemental manipulation
    left eye: mastery of amaterasu

    my conclusion is that Itachi and Sasuke both have mastery of tsukuyomi and amaterasu, and that is enough to awaken Susanoo. The reason I'm saying this is because Sasuke awoke susanoo BEFORE he used enton, ie he did have mastery of both ms eyes before that.
     
         

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