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  1. #26
    Senior Member Baka Sennin's Avatar
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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    Quote Originally Posted by Blaze Release View Post
    I disagree, he knew how to control amaterasu before he used susano. He held his right eye after putting them out;


    This is how i see it.
    Itachi had amaterasu, no different to sasuke but itachi uses his in his right eye whilst sasuke uses his in his left eye.

    Itachi, people seem to forget this also has some form of control of amaterasu with the ability to make it chase after his opponent, but his ability in this field isnt what granted him mastery of both ms. No different to how sasuke's ability with the supposedly tsukuyomi doesnt grant him mastery of both ms.

    Its itachi's tsukuyomi in his left eye that grants him mastery of the ms, no different to how its the mastery of amaterasu, blaze release that grants him mastery of the ms.

    So its something like this.
    Itachi amaterasu = sasuke amaterasu
    Itachi's ability to control amaterasu = sasuke less potent genjutsu
    Itachi's tsukuyomi = blaze release for sasuke.


    Itachi cannot control the flames well enough to use blaze release, no different to how sasuke cannot control everything in that genjutsu to use tsukuyomi.

    So no itachi doesnt have blaze release and sasuke doesnt have tsukuyomi
    itachi was also able to put amaterasu out though, he did it with sasuke. personally, i think that and the ability to make it chase after the opponent is part of the original amaterasu.

    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/390/6 here when itachi stopped amaterasu, only his left eye was open... so i'm not sure exactly. personally, i think space-time manipulation and enton arent precursors to susanoo.

    also, japanese mythology, which kishi heavily borrows from, supports this. susanoo is the brother of both tsukuyomi and amaterasu, born from izanagi.
     
         

  2. #27
    Karasu Blaze Release's Avatar
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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    Quote Originally Posted by -The Agent- View Post
    You do understand that Sasuke is using Tsukuyomi to manipulate amaterasu to create blaze release right?

    Itachi and Sasuke are inverses of each other in terms of eyes.
    Itachi right- Amaterasu
    Left Tsukuyomi

    Sasuke Right Tsukuyomi
    Left Amaterasu.

    Blaze release comes from Sasuke manipulating amaterasu with his other eye. Each eye is supposed to have it's own technique and the technique he is using is Tsukuyomi. It wouldn't make sense for Sasuke to have a blank MS with no real technique, therefore sasuke is using his right eye's tech to control his left eyes tech creating blaze release.
    Sasuke doesnt have tsukuyomi. He has a less potent ms genjutsu. Most likely above normal sharingan genjutsu, but inferior to tsukuyomi. Somewhere in between. Each eye does have its own technique and in sasuke's case its blaze release

    Quote Originally Posted by Baka Sennin View Post
    itachi was also able to put amaterasu out though, he did it with sasuke. personally, i think that and the ability to make it chase after the opponent is part of the original amaterasu.

    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/390/6 here when itachi stopped amaterasu, only his left eye was open... so i'm not sure exactly. personally, i think space-time manipulation and enton arent precursors to susanoo.

    also, japanese mythology, which kishi heavily borrows from, supports this. susanoo is the brother of both tsukuyomi and amaterasu, born from izanagi.
    I know itachi was able to put out the flames, but he didnt have mastery of it like sasuke to take it further.

    Anyway i already showed you that he put it out with his right eye. Later on he says this. I have a new power strong enough to destroy konoha;

    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/417/8

    And in the next link he holds right eye (blaze release eye);
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/417/9

    I believe he had full control of amaterasu, blaze release before he was able to use susano at the summit

    I do know about japanese myths and how kishi uses them alot, but the latest manga has confirmed that whilst in the first instance both used amaterasu, in the second case both said completely different techniques.
     
         

  3. #28
    Member Rasenloki's Avatar
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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    +rep to op and also if i am not mistaken it was clearly said itachi could not manipulate the flames, his eye followed sasuke and anything in your eye sights line of path will get burned. that's far from manipulation if he is turning his head, but yes he was able to get rid of the fire and that's a far cry from what sasuke can do with it.
     
         

  4. #29
    Senior Comedian Member -The Agent-'s Avatar
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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    Quote Originally Posted by Blaze Release View Post
    Sasuke doesnt have tsukuyomi. He has a less potent ms genjutsu. Most likely above normal sharingan genjutsu, but inferior to tsukuyomi. Somewhere in between. Each eye does have its own technique and in sasuke's case its blaze release
    he does man. He used it against Killer Bee.

    You can't say they are different because his is weaker than Itachi's. Itachi was more skilled in genjutsu than Sasuke. Itachi caught Naruto in a genjutsu by pointing a finger. Nobody else can do that. So of course his Tsukuyomi is stronger than Sasuke's.

    But Sasuke outshines itachi in Amaterasu being able to control it, and manipulate it's shape.

    But I don't think we will agree on this.
     
         

  5. #30
    Karasu Blaze Release's Avatar
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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    Quote Originally Posted by -The Agent- View Post
    he does man. He used it against Killer Bee.

    You can't say they are different because his is weaker than Itachi's. Itachi was more skilled in genjutsu than Sasuke. Itachi caught Naruto in a genjutsu by pointing a finger. Nobody else can do that. So of course his Tsukuyomi is stronger than Sasuke's.

    But Sasuke outshines itachi in Amaterasu being able to control it, and manipulate it's shape.

    But I don't think we will agree on this.
    What im saying is that sasuke's supposedly tsukuyomi is no different from itachi's ability to comtrol amaterasu to a degree. Sasuke didnt master tsukuomi and itachi didnt master the ability to control amaterasu. Its the mastery of tsukuyomi for itachi that allowed him to awaken susano. Its the mastery of amaterasu that allowed sasuke to awaken susano.

    Anyway im done here. Never in the manga, unless you can upload me a chapter where sasuke's genjutsu has been called tsukuyomi by kishi, even now kishi doesnt call it tsukuyomi
     
         

  6. #31
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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    But sasuke used susanoo before he used enton and he said the 3rd power is susanoo not 1St or 2nd.
     
         

  7. #32
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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    it doesnt matter because unless sasuke is under genjutsu too, sasuke thinks itachi just got slashed in half too not just us
     
         

  8. #33
    Master Artisan leafeater's Avatar
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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    I read it (skimmed some, detailed the rest), and there's no need to rep me just for reading it, lol...

    I was already in agreement with you just from reading the manga chapter, so I didn't need to read the OP to be convinced. However, I always like to get a manga refresher and/or nice index of data from the manga in these types of posts for possible future reference. Thus, nice work, and quite a bit at that. I write long posts, so I'm not about to complain when another does it, especially the OP of their thread. NarutoKage2 actually brought up the point about Itachi/Sasuke not stating Tsukiyomi every time in a discussion with me a while back, so I've also seen some of this evidence. However, this is far more complete in order to serve its intended purpose. You've essentially used David Hume's philosophy regarding physical laws effectively as your argument, which is nice.

    Note: lol, the fifth time that Itachi uses Tsukiyomi (i.e. this past chapter) in your OP the page image the manga guys (i.e. translation and/or scanlation teams), at MangaReader print I presume, misspell it as "Tsukutomi" :D Just check your OP... I find it quite amusing. It's obviously not your fault. Makes me wonder if they also screwed up Sasuke's doujutsu statement, and the correct translation is not, "Sharingan Genjutsu" but possibly "Tsukiyomi." Either way it's irrelevant given the validity of your argument and common sense.

    Itachi's Tsukiyomi is now Tsukutomi, another Uchiha secret revealed!!! lol, :sy:

    Ch. 585, page 13 link: http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/585/13

    Ch. 585, page 13 image (image from NvG's OP):


    Peace
     
         

  9. #34
    Senior Member Izzy..'s Avatar
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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    I thought it was obvious.

    I didn't need to read the thread at all (but I did ).

    I totally agree with you. I hope my pathetic rep can show the appreciation.

    @leafeater - I love your posts. They are quite informative actually. One of the few logical thinkers on the base such as I. Now add me to your friends list.......please?
     
         
    Last edited by Izzy..; 05-10-2012 at 12:31 PM.

  10. #35
    Man Utd siyo's Avatar
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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)






    Tobi: "Somehow, when Itachi died, he transferred all his eye techniques to you."

    Last I checked, Tsukuyomi was part of Itachi's arsenal which means Sasuke had it at one point.Also the databook specifies that you need both amaterasu and tsukuyomi to awaken susano'o.

    Danzo: "Compared to Itachi's Tsukiyomi, where he could alter your perception of time at his whim... Youre as far below him as the land is below the sky."

    As you can see, it is heavily implied that Sasuke has Tsukuyomi.Why would Danzo compare a random technique to Tsukuyomi? Danzo is clearly mocking Sasuke for not possesing the same genjutsu prowess as his brother.


    Finally, blaze release is not a mangekyou technique. It is simply an advanced chakra nature. Just like the rasengan is still the rasengan despite having several different variations, Sasuke just surpassed his brother with amaterasu. He developed it so far that he can manipulate the flames to his personal liking which is expected when Itachi did the same with tsukuyomi. It not only fits the theme of the show but also the Japanese mythology.
     
         

  11. #36
    Legendary Sannin kibaclaw's Avatar
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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    Quote Originally Posted by NarutoVsGoku View Post
    i will rep you if you read this all. if i dont like you tho i will neg you. fair warning.

    This morning there has been alot of confusion brought up about Sasuke's ability to use Tsukuyomi. I was suprised to see that even though the latest manga ch.585 clearly shows Sasuke using Tsukuyomi noobs have crawled out of the dirt crevices to say Sasuke never has used it nor has it. Something that was also brought up was the orgin of Sasuke's Amaterasu, again i was suprised to see these noobs saying that Sasuke received Amaterasu from Itachi. These two things should not be argued nor even discussed. They are a given, basic knowledge received by reading the manga even if you had basic reading comprehension.

    I'm going to clear things up in this thread and will use facts and evidence from the manga to support my claims. I will make it as easy to understand for you guys, especially for those of you who fail to understand the manga.. im just going to talk about Tsukiyomi tho and clear up on Amaterasu in some other thread some other time when i feel like it.....

    Tsukuyomi Naruto.wiki

    http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Tsukuyomi

    above is the link that explains what the jutsu Tsukuyomi is in Naruto.wiki. Now some of you will argue that "anybody can edit wiki". fact of the matter is that wiki is backed up with evidence from the manga, they reference from the manga.

    on Naruto wiki it says that Sasuke is a user of the Tsukiyomi. Now some of you will say, "well show me when he used it".

    I will show you

    and naru wiki also says that one cannot have Sasunoo without first having Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu. Sasuke did say that one needed both MS eyes

    What Does Tsukuyomi Looks Like?

    First we have to be able to identify what Tsukuyomi looks like. No one will argue that Itachi has used Tsukuyomi multiple times so i will use his as an example

    First time Tsukuyomi is ever used:





    now important things to notice in these pics is that:

    -Itachi said that only someone of the same blood as him (a Uchiha clan member or family relative) has a chance of countering or cancelling the Tsukiyomi.
    -Itachi can control space and time. everything in the realm of his Tsukiyomi is under his control
    -the background is black and white. this characteristic is only associated when using the genjutsu that is Tsukiyomi and no other type of genjutsu.

    the last fact is the most important fact, the others i will bring up again but the 3rd one is crucial.

    2nd Time We've witnessed Tsukiyomi




    -Now this time Itachi NEVER SAYS TSUKIYOMI! For those of you think that the words "tsukiyomi" have to be present whenever the jutsu is being used, you have just seen a time in the actual manga where the words arent present. which means just because "tsukiyomi" isnt said doesnt mean the genjutsu isnt Tsukiyomi!
    -We still recognize it as Tsukiyomi because of the black and white background characteristic that is only associated with Tsukiyomi

    Something that we should take note on also is that Tsukiyomi destroys a persons will as mentioned and noted by Kisame. this is evident when we see the after affect of both Kakashi and Sasuke after being victims to Tsukiyomi


    Third Time Tsukiyomi being used in the manga




    -AGAIN THE WORDS TSUKIYOMI ARE NOT PRESENT, only the words Mangekyo Sharingan was written but we all know to use Tsukiyomi one needs the MS..
    -AGAIN, no one will argue that Itachi was using Tsukiyomi because 1. we again see the black and white background and 2. he was using MS. mind you MS never shown when he used Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu when he visited the leaf. this is the first time we see what an MS looks like but the 3rd time witnessing Tsukiyomi

    4th Time now







    -Itachi is activating Tsukiyomi with his LEFT EYE! this is the very first time we witness exactly which eye Itachi uses Tsukiyomi with-AGAIN!! Itachi is using Tsukiyomi but the words are not present. what makes it obvious is that Itachi MS is activated.
    -now i did not post all of the pages that included what happened while Itachi activated his Tsukiyomi but at first it doesnt seem like a Tsukiyomi. because the black and white background is not present at first. it becomes clear that it is tsukiyomi near the end of the jutsu when Sasuke cancels it with his own sharingan
    -we can tell that the genjutsu was Tsukiyomi all along because it turns black and white. Zetsu who is witnessing the fight confirms that Itachi was using Tsukiyomi and confirms that Sasuke cancelled it on his own accord as seen below. (Itach also confirms he was using Tsukiyomi even though at first the background wasnt black and white and he didnt announce that he was using it before using it. Itachi again confirms he was using Tsukiyomi in page 16 even though at first the background wasnt black and white and he didnt say Tsukiyomi)




    5th time



    -Itachi is obviously using Tsukiyomi. the black and white is evident and so is MS. Sasuke in the other hand has "genjutsu sharingan" in his panel and doesnt create a black and white background. its argueable that his genjutsu is not Tsukiyomi and some of you are saying that but just because it doesnt say Tsukiyomi in his panel doesnt not mean it is not Tsukiyomi, nor does it mean that Sasuke has never used it or cannot use it.

    an explanation for that panel is that Sasuke is using his variation of Tsukiyomi, a weaker version perhaps. we know Itachi is far better at genjutsu than Sasuke, but on the other hand Sasuke is far better at using Amaterasu than Itachi is and has created variations of Amaterasu and Amaterasu based jutsus like he has with his chidoris.

    the fact that it says "genjutsu sharingan" in Sasuke panel doesnt mean hes using an unnamed genjutsu. besides it would contradict the panel picture. we know Itachi uses Tsukiyomi in his left eye. Sasuke is uses Tsukiyomi in his right, plus Sasuke has his EMS activated, plus on top of that he has Itachi's eyes so to conclude that his genjutsu is not Tsukiyomi, a variation of Tsukiyomi, or to say that he cant use Tsukiyomi when he has Itachi eyes, or never has is a ridiculous conclusion to make

    i will furthur support this claim with the next examples of Sasuke using Tsukiyomi or what is likely to be Tsukiyomi or a weaker version:


    real quick tho- to understand what makes a genjutsu Tsukiyomi and not Tsukiyomi. these are characterstics of genjutsus that are obviously nor Tsukiyomi by Itachi:
    Now that we know the characteristics of a MS Tsukiyomi let us compare it to Itachi's other type of genjutsus

    Itachi's other genjutsus (not Tsukiyomi)



    this is a genjutsu that Itachi uses by pointing a finger. Itachi is able to cast a genjutsu by just pointing a finger. this was agasint Naruto when he was trying to save Gaara. the characteristics of this genjutsu is seen in the next chapter, heres the link, http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/259 but the back ground is not black and white and Itachi MS is not activated which means this is obviously not Tsukiyomi.




    this is just a regular sharingan genjutsu. Itachi used this on Kakashi when the Leaf ninjas were after Gaara. Itachi could not use MS cuz he was fighting with limited chakra. since he couldnt use MS, it means he couldnt use Tsukiyomi. and as you can see this genjutsu does not have the same characteristics as a Tsukiyomi where the background turns black and white.



    crow sharingan genjutsu. Itachi casting a genjutsu by surrounding you with flying crows that possess sharingans. used on Naruto when he was looking for Sasuke. again no MS and no black and white so we know its not Tsukiyomi.


    Sasuke evidence for using Tsukiyomi

    First time Sasuke is using genjutsu with an MS





    -this is the first time Sasuke is using a genjutsu while having the MS. he used genjutsu before on Deidara, and Orochimaru, even Manda (Oro summon snake). but Sasuke using a genjutsu while having MS makes it a posibility for it being Tsukiyomi
    -now this is arueable that its not Tsukiyomi. as i have stated much earlier Tsukiyomi was a genjutsu that broke ones will, tortured someone. here we see Sasuke casting a genjutsu that allows him to find information from his target
    -but than again this genjutsu uses the MS and it focuses on Sasukes right eye and that is his Tsukiyomi eye since his Amaterasu eye is his left eye.
    -there is no black and white background so its very plausible that this isnt Tsukiyomi but you cant ignore it being a MS genjutsu. just because this isnt Tsukiyomi doensnt mean Sasuke cant use it. maybe this is Sasukes variation of it since its MS but i honestly doubt it. i think its a MS genjutsu specific to Sasuke that allows him to receive info
    -he uses this again agaisnt a Zetsu clone. link: http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/574/11

    Tsukiyomi is obvious here




    -this is when Sasuke was fighting Bee.
    -fact: Sasuke is using his right MS to use Tsukiyomi. he uses his left eye to use Amaterasu. just like Itachi uses his right eye for Tsukiyomi and his right for Amaterasu.
    -many of you tried to use this to say "where did Sasuke say Tsukiyomi?"... youre trying to argue that because Sasuke did not say "tsukiyomi" that it is not that justsu. well considering that Itachi used Tsukiyomi 5 times in the manga and 3/5 times he didnt even say Tsukiyomi makes your question and arguement both irrelevant and invalid in other words Sasuke does not have to say Tsukiyomi for it to be so
    -the background is black and white!!!!! its Tsukiyomi because everytime Itachi used it it was black and white
    -i do not doubt that this is Tsukiyomi and you shouldnt either

    now Kakashi had pointed out that once in Tsukiyomi one cannot cancel it. Itachi pointed out that one of his bloodline can only cancel Tsukiyomi, which Sasuke did. but Bee cancelled Sasukes Tsukiyomi. some of you may say that it cant be Tsukiyomi because Bee cancelled it and it would contradict Itachi and Kakashi. well Sasuke is weaker at genjutsus than Itachi and cannot control time and space so it just may make it easier for Bee to break. simple explanation. its just like how Itachi said Sasuke had to kill his bestfriend to get MS but yet Sasuke didnt do that, Kakashi sure as hell didnt do that but yet they both aquired MS...


    Kakashi says the Tsukiyomi cannot be cancelled out




    Sasuke's Itachi genjutsu




    -Sasuke used genjutsu on Danzo to make it seem Itachi had appeared.
    -there is no black and white so one can argue that it isnt Tsukiyomi
    -Sasuke is using his MS however, its a MS based genjutsu. and Danzo is comparing it to Itachis genjutsu which can control time and space. Sasukes MS genjutsu just may be a weaker version of what Itachi can do. this is a possibility and shouldnt be ignored.
    -Sasuke not saying Tsukiyomi doesnt mean shit. Itachi didnt say Tsukiyomi most times he used it either.

    Sasukes genjutsu that defeats Danzo




    -here we see black and white. background. Tsukiyomi?
    -Tobi is again comparing Sasukes genjutsu to Itachis. they may be compared because they are the same jutsus but of different strengths or variations
    -Sasuke is using his right MS eye to cast the genjutsu which is his Tsukiyomi eye because his left is Amaterasu
    -Tsukiyomi isnt said but i have already stated that that doesnt matter.
    -the genjutsu wasnt used to torture Danzo, but it may be that Sasukes version of Tsukiyomi is not good for torturing but for allowing Sasuke moments of a slight advantage. nobody said Sasukes Tsukiyomi has to be the exact same as Itachi. their Amaterasus are not the same and their Sasunoos sure as hell arent the same so they can have different ways of using Tsukiyomi as well



    Conclusion and Summary

    the arguements for Sasuke not using Tsukiyomi or not having Tsukiyomi were that he never said "Tsukiyomi". i posted all the times Itachi has used Tsukiyomi and 3/5 times, the majority of the time i should say, Itachi didnt say "Tsukiyomi either.

    an arguement that Sasuke can use Tsukiyomi and has in the past is:

    1. he has MS ("but Kakashi has MS too" thats what you noobs want to say right? but Kakashi isnt a Uchiha)
    2. naruto wiki says so
    3. he has Sasunoo, in wiki it says that you need Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu to use Sasunoo. what that means is that you need both LEFT AND RIGHT MS EYES TO USE SASUNOO. since Amaterasu is dominant on 1 eye (Itachis right, Sasukes left) and Tsukiyomi is dominant on the other (Itachis left, Sasukes right) than that means having both Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu is needed for Sasunoo. Sasunoo is called the 3rd MS jutsu anyways. how can it be the 3rd if you cant get the 1st being Tsukiyomi and 2nd Amaterasu.?
    4. when he fought agaisnt Bee the genjutsu he used had a black and white background. that is a characteristic of Tsukiyomi
    5. when he fought Danzo his genjutsu was being compared to Itachis tsukuyomi. thats because Danzo and Tobi were comparing the level of how both Itachi and Sasuke can use it. also Danzo had a black and white background
    6. it logically makes no sense for Sasuke to have Amaterasu, Sasunoo and not Tsukiyomi when those three are the basic MS jutsus!
    7. Sasuke now has Itachis eyes so being able to use Tsukiyomi is a given! thats like Kakashi getting Obitos eye but yet he cant activate the sharingan or Danzo getting Shisuis eye and he cant use the genjutsu to control other people. noobs
    8. some of you may argue that Sasuke's genjutsus look nothing like Itachis. well thats because Danzo and Tobi stated that Itachi is better at Tsukiyomi than Sasuke. also every sharingan user is different. Sasukes Amaterasus have variations and Sasuke is far better at manipulating his Amaterasus than Itachi was. so Itach is better at manipulating his genjutsu and Tsukiyomi than Sasuke is. they also have very different kinds of Sasunoos. the point is Sasukes Tsukiyomi may be just allow him to gain information from targets and use for only a few seconds like what he did to Danzo while Itachis Tsukiyomi can control the length of time and space and Itachi has complete utter control of the realm of his Tsukiyomi. different eyes different versions.
    9. when the panel in ch. 585 says "genjutsu sharingan" its obviously not just a regular sharingan genjutsu because Sasukes EMS is activated, his right one, thats his Tsukiyomi eye.


    now at the end i'd like to give a shout out to Natsuu for being a noob and making a thread that said Sasuke couldnt use Tsukiyomi. thank you for neg repping me when i told you wrong. shout out to the other noobs that had agreed with him. this ones for you guys that cant comprehend Naruto.

    I agree with all of this except Sasuke did not use Tsuko in 585, that is why when he entered Itachi's genjutsu it was not the tsuko style black and white. The reason he did not use Tsuko on Itachi is because he is not an edo so he has limited chakra reserves so there was no point in wasting extra chakra on tsuko when it wasn't necessary.d


    Other than that all your information is spot on, great thread!
     
         

  12. #37
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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    Quote Originally Posted by Blaze Release View Post
    What im saying is that sasuke's supposedly tsukuyomi is no different from itachi's ability to comtrol amaterasu to a degree. Sasuke didnt master tsukuomi and itachi didnt master the ability to control amaterasu. Its the mastery of tsukuyomi for itachi that allowed him to awaken susano. Its the mastery of amaterasu that allowed sasuke to awaken susano.

    Anyway im done here. Never in the manga, unless you can upload me a chapter where sasuke's genjutsu has been called tsukuyomi by kishi, even now kishi doesnt call it tsukuyomi
    I think NarutoVsGoku is right. While itachi does not have blaze release, he also doesn't have some "tsukuyomi release" indicating he has mastered it, it's implied by the fact that he can control time and space in it. His amaterasu is still called amaterasu even though he cannot control it to the degree that sasuke can, just how his genjutsu can still be a tsukuyomi without being able to control it to the degree that itachi can.

    Now if itachi had some fire MS technique that was better than regular fire, but was not technically amaterasu, i would be inclined to believe you. But seeing as how he still uses amaterasu in it's namesake indicates to me that both itachi and sasuke have tsukuyomi, amaterasu, and susano'o.
     
         
    Last edited by Necromancer4276; 05-10-2012 at 05:02 PM.

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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    Quote Originally Posted by psukkar View Post
    it doesnt matter because unless sasuke is under genjutsu too, sasuke thinks itachi just got slashed in half too not just us
    wrong wrong wrong sir.... nobody is under any genjutsu. in fact Itachi got slashed in half but he is an edo and will revive. idk why people made a big deal about him get cut.

    Quote Originally Posted by leafeater View Post
    I read it (skimmed some, detailed the rest), and there's no need to rep me just for reading it, lol...

    I was already in agreement with you just from reading the manga chapter, so I didn't need to read the OP to be convinced. However, I always like to get a manga refresher and/or nice index of data from the manga in these types of posts for possible future reference. Thus, nice work, and quite a bit at that. I write long posts, so I'm not about to complain when another does it, especially the OP of their thread. NarutoKage2 actually brought up the point about Itachi/Sasuke not stating Tsukiyomi every time in a discussion with me a while back, so I've also seen some of this evidence. However, this is far more complete in order to serve its intended purpose. You've essentially used David Hume's philosophy regarding physical laws effectively as your argument, which is nice.

    Note: lol, the fifth time that Itachi uses Tsukiyomi (i.e. this past chapter) in your OP the page image the manga guys (i.e. translation and/or scanlation teams), at MangaReader print I presume, misspell it as "Tsukutomi" :D Just check your OP... I find it quite amusing. It's obviously not your fault. Makes me wonder if they also screwed up Sasuke's doujutsu statement, and the correct translation is not, "Sharingan Genjutsu" but possibly "Tsukiyomi." Either way it's irrelevant given the validity of your argument and common sense.

    Itachi's Tsukiyomi is now Tsukutomi, another Uchiha secret revealed!!! lol, :sy:

    Ch. 585, page 13 link: http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/585/13

    Ch. 585, page 13 image (image from NvG's OP):


    Peace
    i love this post... i agree with the mistake of writing Tsukiyomi than they could have made a mistake of saying "genjutsu sharingan" since Sasuke is not using a sharingan but an EMS...

    i didnt think to make that arguement because i didnt see the mispelling as a big deal but the mispelling is an indication that there are mistakes in the translation.. i think i will find someone to give me a good translation

    Quote Originally Posted by siyo View Post





    Tobi: "Somehow, when Itachi died, he transferred all his eye techniques to you."

    Last I checked, Tsukuyomi was part of Itachi's arsenal which means Sasuke had it at one point.Also the databook specifies that you need both amaterasu and tsukuyomi to awaken susano'o.

    Danzo: "Compared to Itachi's Tsukiyomi, where he could alter your perception of time at his whim... Youre as far below him as the land is below the sky."

    As you can see, it is heavily implied that Sasuke has Tsukuyomi.Why would Danzo compare a random technique to Tsukuyomi? Danzo is clearly mocking Sasuke for not possesing the same genjutsu prowess as his brother.


    Finally, blaze release is not a mangekyou technique. It is simply an advanced chakra nature. Just like the rasengan is still the rasengan despite having several different variations, Sasuke just surpassed his brother with amaterasu. He developed it so far that he can manipulate the flames to his personal liking which is expected when Itachi did the same with tsukuyomi. It not only fits the theme of the show but also the Japanese mythology.
    Itachi did not transfer his jutsus to Sasuke. he implanted only1 amaterasu technique in his eye to be activated at the sight of Tobis sharingan. it was a one time use and one time only. why? because Itachis MS signature patterns were present and it was on the right eye.

    when Sasuke unlocked his own amaterasu, we see him using his own (not itachis) amaterasu with his own MS signature pattern on his left eye! that is his own amaterasu and not itachis..

    besides if Itachi gave Sasuke his MS powers than what is the need of Sasuke transplanting his eye?! why couldnt Sasuke control time and space with Tsukiyomi? why did Sasukes sasunoo look completely different from Itachis?!?! why couldnt Itachi control amaterasu like Sasuke?!

    Sasuke has his own MS and didnt get anything from Itachi except his exact eyes. Itachi only planted a trap in sasuke for a one time use agaisnt Tobi...

    i will make another thread about this since this is a huge misconception by others.


    Quote Originally Posted by kibaclaw View Post
    I agree with all of this except Sasuke did not use Tsuko in 585, that is why when he entered Itachi's genjutsu it was not the tsuko style black and white. The reason he did not use Tsuko on Itachi is because he is not an edo so he has limited chakra reserves so there was no point in wasting extra chakra on tsuko when it wasn't necessary.d


    Other than that all your information is spot on, great thread!
    both Itachi and Sasuke used genjutsu on each other to free each other from Kabutos genjutsu. just because your edo doesnt mean you cant be caught with genjutsu.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Necromancer4276 View Post
    I think NarutoVsGoku is right. While itachi does not have blaze release, he also doesn't have some "tsukuyomi release" indicating he has mastered it, it's implied by the fact that he can control time and space in it. His amaterasu is still called amaterasu even though he cannot control it to the degree that sasuke can, just how his genjutsu can still be a tsukuyomi without being able to control it to the degree that itachi can.

    Now if itachi had some fire MS technique that was better than regular fire, but was not technically amaterasu, i would be inclined to believe you. But seeing as how he still uses amaterasu in it's namesake indicates to me that both itachi and sasuke have tsukuyomi, amaterasu, and susano'o.
    thank you!!!!!
     
         

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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    @Blaze Relaease... you dont listen.. didnt i tell oyu to read my whole post?

    what Agent said is spot on and you are wrong. cease your pointless argueing, your not even right and just argueing to "look" as if your right.

    you say you wont except it being Tsukiyomi because Sasuke has "never said it" but i showed that the majority of the times Itachi hasnt said it either when using the technique.

    i showed that Tsukiyomi has the properties of a black and white background when being used and Sasuke had that on both Bee and Danzo...

    i showed that both Danzo and Tobi were comparing Sasukes Tsukiyomi to Itachis because they said compared to Itachi it is weak, and also Sasuke doesnt have the level of control like Itachi does with time and space.

    i proved to you that your logic is invaild and false. you said that Sasukes ability with amaterasu and "blaze release" allows him to use Sasunooo but you are incorrect. the 3 MS jutsus are tsukiyomi, amaterasu and sasunoo. in order the 1st is tsukiyomi, 2nd amaterasu and 3rd is sasunoo.

    you cannot master the 3rd without mastery of the 1st and 2nd. the reason why these 3 are MS jutsus is becuase Kishi reference them from japanese mythology with the god of the moon Tsukiyomi being born first after the god Inazagi wiped his right eye (maybe left) and then amaterasu the goddess of sun was born when inazagi washed his left eye (maybe right) and sasunoo was born after inazagi washed his nosed. this is why Kishi showed the MS jutsus in the order of tsukiyomi, amaterasu and sasunoo, 1,2,3 respectively. he showed this with itachi and showed this with sasuke.

    and sasuke blaze release came after sasunoo so your wrong and dont make sense when you say he had "mastery" of amaterasu to unlock sasunoo. your arguements are invalid.
     
         

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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    all of this is obvious to the core thx for sharing
     
         

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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    How come when itachi and sasuke both use amaterau the manga says "AMATERASU" one time as they both us it. But when they use genjutsu, itachi calls his tsukiyomi and sasuke call his sharingan genjutsu. just sayin, I think the manga woudl have just saif TSUKOYOMI one time if they both used it.
     
         

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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    Nice that you bring this up. lets hope ppl get in now :P and why ppl say "i wont read" why you guys are here then? you read books right? whats the different?
     
         

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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    nicely done.
     
         

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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    Quote Originally Posted by slinkease View Post
    How come when itachi and sasuke both use amaterau the manga says "AMATERASU" one time as they both us it. But when they use genjutsu, itachi calls his tsukiyomi and sasuke call his sharingan genjutsu. just sayin, I think the manga woudl have just saif TSUKOYOMI one time if they both used it.
    i will make a thread about amaterasu soon and answer that but did you read what i wrote?

    the majority of the times Itachi doesnt say Tsukiyomi when using it, so just because we dont see the words Tsukiyomi being said doesnt mean it is not being used! do you have to read the words rasengan everytime to recognize taht Naruto is using one?!

    also



    if you really want to be anal and technical about the words "tsukiyomi" being said in order to recognize the jutsu than in chapter 585 Itachi didnt use it either. he used "tsukutomi"... i dont even know wtf that is...

    this goes to show the translators make mistakes.. i highly believed they made a mistake about writing "genjutsu sharingan" since Sasuke is not using a sharingan but he is using the EMS. its possible and likely that "genjutsu sharingan" is a mistake at translation just as "Tsukutomi" is a mistake at spelling
     
         

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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    Well done.

    As far as Bee able to cancel the Genjutsu it's because:

    As we know, you cannot place a perfect host of a Tailed Beast under a genjutsu due to the fact that there is some disturbing or forcing their chakra in the host.
     
         

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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    Seriously everyone thinking that Enton is some special MS jutsu for Sasuke...this thinking is beyond me. Enton is simply SHAPE MANIPULATION of Amaterasu. NOTHING MORE. Like seriously, is everyone a ****ing idiot? It is basically exactly like Rasengan. Rasengan is a jutsu that uses SHAPE MANIPULATION to shape a large amount of Chakra into a ball. Enton is a jutsu that uses SHAPE MANIPULATION to turn the black flames of Amaterasu into whatever Sasuke feels like turning them into. Enton: Magatama or whatever is just Sasuke turning Amaterasu's flames into magatama's to throw at people. Enton: Kagutsuchi is just Sasuke turning Amaterasu's flames into a barrier to protect himself. THIS IS ALL JUST USING SHAPE MANIPULATION. IT IS NOT A NEW MS JUTSU. I guess you can say it is actually more close to Rasenshuriken. It is using Nature Manipulation(Amaterasu) and adding Shape Manipulation to that to make a new jutsu. Which would be the Enton Jutsu I stated above.

    Sasuke 100% used Tsukuyomi against Bee. The only reason he broke out of it was because of the Hachibi. EVERY SINGLE TIME that Tsukuyomi was used the page looks black and white, but not just ANY black and white. The person it is being used against, their skin turns black, and the clothes they are wearing turn white. Looks at the panel of Bee being in the Tsukuyomi, it looks exactly like that. Same with the Danzo panel. Plus Danzo even says that Sasuke used Tsukuyomi. That is the biggest thing for me that he actually used it. Why would Kishi have Danzo say that Sasuke used Tsukuyomi...if HE DIDN'T USE TSUKUYOMI???????? He wouldn't. Get over it. Sasuke has Tsukuyomi. Everything the OP said is the reason why, plus what I just said.

    Oh and yes I read the entire OP btw, I pretty much agree with everything, good job.

    Oh by the way, Sasuke does say Genjutsu: Sharingan in basically every translation of this chapter also. He says that in the Mangastream scan, and the one up here on NarutoBase, and the one up on MangaPanda also. So he most likely does just say Genjutsu Sharingan.
     
         
    Last edited by boshans; 05-11-2012 at 09:51 PM.

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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    Yeah, you do have a point. But I don't think sasuke is using Tsukiyomi, if he is then its an incomplete version. Being able to have control of time is practically what makes Tsukiyomi unique and reputatble in comparison to other genjutsu. Sasuke has not shown the abilty to control time and so its probably safe to say that its just a regular genjutsu
     
         

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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    Quote Originally Posted by NarutoVsGoku View Post
    true.. for those who take it seriously will read. for those who dont i summarized it at the bottom
    But even the summary is incredibly long. I read but yeah, just saying. :shrug:
     
         

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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    Quote Originally Posted by boshans View Post
    Seriously everyone thinking that Enton is some special MS jutsu for Sasuke...this thinking is beyond me. Enton is simply SHAPE MANIPULATION of Amaterasu. NOTHING MORE. Like seriously, is everyone a ****ing idiot? It is basically exactly like Rasengan. Rasengan is a jutsu that uses SHAPE MANIPULATION to shape a large amount of Chakra into a ball. Enton is a jutsu that uses SHAPE MANIPULATION to turn the black flames of Amaterasu into whatever Sasuke feels like turning them into. Enton: Magatama or whatever is just Sasuke turning Amaterasu's flames into magatama's to throw at people. Enton: Kagutsuchi is just Sasuke turning Amaterasu's flames into a barrier to protect himself. THIS IS ALL JUST USING SHAPE MANIPULATION. IT IS NOT A NEW MS JUTSU. I guess you can say it is actually more close to Rasenshuriken. It is using Nature Manipulation(Amaterasu) and adding Shape Manipulation to that to make a new jutsu. Which would be the Enton Jutsu I stated above.

    Sasuke 100% used Tsukuyomi against Bee. The only reason he broke out of it was because of the Hachibi. EVERY SINGLE TIME that Tsukuyomi was used the page looks black and white, but not just ANY black and white. The person it is being used against, their skin turns black, and the clothes they are wearing turn white. Looks at the panel of Bee being in the Tsukuyomi, it looks exactly like that. Same with the Danzo panel. Plus Danzo even says that Sasuke used Tsukuyomi. That is the biggest thing for me that he actually used it. Why would Kishi have Danzo say that Sasuke used Tsukuyomi...if HE DIDN'T USE TSUKUYOMI???????? He wouldn't. Get over it. Sasuke has Tsukuyomi. Everything the OP said is the reason why, plus what I just said.

    Oh and yes I read the entire OP btw. It was good. The only thing I don't agree with is that Itachi didn't use Tsukuyomi against Kakashi the second time, when they fought him going after Gaara. Yes the panel is black and white, but it is a different black and white than usual. Kakashi's skin would be black, and his clothes white. That panel he is just in a different colored world basically, but he himself isn't black and white. Other than that I pretty much agree with everything, good job.

    Oh by the way, Sasuke does say Genjutsu: Sharingan in basically every translation of this chapter also. He says that in the Mangastream scan, and the one up here on NarutoBase, and the one up on MangaPanda also. So he most likely does just say Genjutsu Sharingan.
    i never said Itachi used Tsukiyomi the second time.. i did mentioned the second time as an example when Itachi didnt use Tsukiyomi. the second time Kakashis clone was in genjutsu, and Kakashi body was like paper and was on fire, i was noting that this wasnt Tsukiyomi because there is no black and white and also Itachi doesnt have his MS active...

    but thank you on clearing the "Genjutsu Sharingan" thing. i still think it doesnt make sense cuz he has EMS and that has created confusion.

    Quote Originally Posted by whatsupdealer View Post
    Yeah, you do have a point. But I don't think sasuke is using Tsukiyomi, if he is then its an incomplete version. Being able to have control of time is practically what makes Tsukiyomi unique and reputatble in comparison to other genjutsu. Sasuke has not shown the abilty to control time and so its probably safe to say that its just a regular genjutsu
    the issue is your way of percieving it.

    Sasuke does not have an incomplete version. Itachi just has a more advanced version. that is all

    would you say Itachi has an imcomplete version of Amaterasu because he cannot manipulate it like Sasuke. would you say Minato has an incomplete version of rasengan because he cannot add nature element into it like Naruto.

    its like saying Jiraiya never turned into Sage mode because he had an incomplete versoin while Naruto had full mastery of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by th1s1guysays View Post
    But even the summary is incredibly long. I read but yeah, just saying. :shrug:
    the reason why its all long in the first place is so the noobs can STFU... i wanted to hit every point i could and in fact this was going to be even longer cuz i was going to speak aobut Amaterasu as well but decided to cut that part out. just sayin :shrug:
     
         

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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    Sasuke does have Tsukuyomi, but it takes so much strain and effort and he sucks so much at it that he just settles for regular Genjutsu. He's not using any variation on it, even the way he says Sharingan Genjutsu makes it clear it is generic since he does not like wasting chakra in something he's not good at. His skill lies in Amaterasu, since he's no rank 5 genius.
     
         

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