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  1. #41
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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    How come when itachi and sasuke both use amaterau the manga says "AMATERASU" one time as they both us it. But when they use genjutsu, itachi calls his tsukiyomi and sasuke call his sharingan genjutsu. just sayin, I think the manga woudl have just saif TSUKOYOMI one time if they both used it.
     
         

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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    Nice that you bring this up. lets hope ppl get in now :P and why ppl say "i wont read" why you guys are here then? you read books right? whats the different?
     
         

  3. #43
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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    nicely done.
     
         

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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    Quote Originally Posted by slinkease View Post
    How come when itachi and sasuke both use amaterau the manga says "AMATERASU" one time as they both us it. But when they use genjutsu, itachi calls his tsukiyomi and sasuke call his sharingan genjutsu. just sayin, I think the manga woudl have just saif TSUKOYOMI one time if they both used it.
    i will make a thread about amaterasu soon and answer that but did you read what i wrote?

    the majority of the times Itachi doesnt say Tsukiyomi when using it, so just because we dont see the words Tsukiyomi being said doesnt mean it is not being used! do you have to read the words rasengan everytime to recognize taht Naruto is using one?!

    also



    if you really want to be anal and technical about the words "tsukiyomi" being said in order to recognize the jutsu than in chapter 585 Itachi didnt use it either. he used "tsukutomi"... i dont even know wtf that is...

    this goes to show the translators make mistakes.. i highly believed they made a mistake about writing "genjutsu sharingan" since Sasuke is not using a sharingan but he is using the EMS. its possible and likely that "genjutsu sharingan" is a mistake at translation just as "Tsukutomi" is a mistake at spelling
     
         

  5. #45
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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    Well done.

    As far as Bee able to cancel the Genjutsu it's because:

    As we know, you cannot place a perfect host of a Tailed Beast under a genjutsu due to the fact that there is some disturbing or forcing their chakra in the host.
     
         

  6. #46
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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    Seriously everyone thinking that Enton is some special MS jutsu for Sasuke...this thinking is beyond me. Enton is simply SHAPE MANIPULATION of Amaterasu. NOTHING MORE. Like seriously, is everyone a ****ing idiot? It is basically exactly like Rasengan. Rasengan is a jutsu that uses SHAPE MANIPULATION to shape a large amount of Chakra into a ball. Enton is a jutsu that uses SHAPE MANIPULATION to turn the black flames of Amaterasu into whatever Sasuke feels like turning them into. Enton: Magatama or whatever is just Sasuke turning Amaterasu's flames into magatama's to throw at people. Enton: Kagutsuchi is just Sasuke turning Amaterasu's flames into a barrier to protect himself. THIS IS ALL JUST USING SHAPE MANIPULATION. IT IS NOT A NEW MS JUTSU. I guess you can say it is actually more close to Rasenshuriken. It is using Nature Manipulation(Amaterasu) and adding Shape Manipulation to that to make a new jutsu. Which would be the Enton Jutsu I stated above.

    Sasuke 100% used Tsukuyomi against Bee. The only reason he broke out of it was because of the Hachibi. EVERY SINGLE TIME that Tsukuyomi was used the page looks black and white, but not just ANY black and white. The person it is being used against, their skin turns black, and the clothes they are wearing turn white. Looks at the panel of Bee being in the Tsukuyomi, it looks exactly like that. Same with the Danzo panel. Plus Danzo even says that Sasuke used Tsukuyomi. That is the biggest thing for me that he actually used it. Why would Kishi have Danzo say that Sasuke used Tsukuyomi...if HE DIDN'T USE TSUKUYOMI???????? He wouldn't. Get over it. Sasuke has Tsukuyomi. Everything the OP said is the reason why, plus what I just said.

    Oh and yes I read the entire OP btw, I pretty much agree with everything, good job.

    Oh by the way, Sasuke does say Genjutsu: Sharingan in basically every translation of this chapter also. He says that in the Mangastream scan, and the one up here on NarutoBase, and the one up on MangaPanda also. So he most likely does just say Genjutsu Sharingan.
     
         
    Last edited by boshans; 05-11-2012 at 10:51 PM.

  7. #47
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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    Yeah, you do have a point. But I don't think sasuke is using Tsukiyomi, if he is then its an incomplete version. Being able to have control of time is practically what makes Tsukiyomi unique and reputatble in comparison to other genjutsu. Sasuke has not shown the abilty to control time and so its probably safe to say that its just a regular genjutsu
     
         

  8. #48
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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    Quote Originally Posted by NarutoVsGoku View Post
    true.. for those who take it seriously will read. for those who dont i summarized it at the bottom
    But even the summary is incredibly long. I read but yeah, just saying. :shrug:
     
         

  9. #49
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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    Quote Originally Posted by boshans View Post
    Seriously everyone thinking that Enton is some special MS jutsu for Sasuke...this thinking is beyond me. Enton is simply SHAPE MANIPULATION of Amaterasu. NOTHING MORE. Like seriously, is everyone a ****ing idiot? It is basically exactly like Rasengan. Rasengan is a jutsu that uses SHAPE MANIPULATION to shape a large amount of Chakra into a ball. Enton is a jutsu that uses SHAPE MANIPULATION to turn the black flames of Amaterasu into whatever Sasuke feels like turning them into. Enton: Magatama or whatever is just Sasuke turning Amaterasu's flames into magatama's to throw at people. Enton: Kagutsuchi is just Sasuke turning Amaterasu's flames into a barrier to protect himself. THIS IS ALL JUST USING SHAPE MANIPULATION. IT IS NOT A NEW MS JUTSU. I guess you can say it is actually more close to Rasenshuriken. It is using Nature Manipulation(Amaterasu) and adding Shape Manipulation to that to make a new jutsu. Which would be the Enton Jutsu I stated above.

    Sasuke 100% used Tsukuyomi against Bee. The only reason he broke out of it was because of the Hachibi. EVERY SINGLE TIME that Tsukuyomi was used the page looks black and white, but not just ANY black and white. The person it is being used against, their skin turns black, and the clothes they are wearing turn white. Looks at the panel of Bee being in the Tsukuyomi, it looks exactly like that. Same with the Danzo panel. Plus Danzo even says that Sasuke used Tsukuyomi. That is the biggest thing for me that he actually used it. Why would Kishi have Danzo say that Sasuke used Tsukuyomi...if HE DIDN'T USE TSUKUYOMI???????? He wouldn't. Get over it. Sasuke has Tsukuyomi. Everything the OP said is the reason why, plus what I just said.

    Oh and yes I read the entire OP btw. It was good. The only thing I don't agree with is that Itachi didn't use Tsukuyomi against Kakashi the second time, when they fought him going after Gaara. Yes the panel is black and white, but it is a different black and white than usual. Kakashi's skin would be black, and his clothes white. That panel he is just in a different colored world basically, but he himself isn't black and white. Other than that I pretty much agree with everything, good job.

    Oh by the way, Sasuke does say Genjutsu: Sharingan in basically every translation of this chapter also. He says that in the Mangastream scan, and the one up here on NarutoBase, and the one up on MangaPanda also. So he most likely does just say Genjutsu Sharingan.
    i never said Itachi used Tsukiyomi the second time.. i did mentioned the second time as an example when Itachi didnt use Tsukiyomi. the second time Kakashis clone was in genjutsu, and Kakashi body was like paper and was on fire, i was noting that this wasnt Tsukiyomi because there is no black and white and also Itachi doesnt have his MS active...

    but thank you on clearing the "Genjutsu Sharingan" thing. i still think it doesnt make sense cuz he has EMS and that has created confusion.

    Quote Originally Posted by whatsupdealer View Post
    Yeah, you do have a point. But I don't think sasuke is using Tsukiyomi, if he is then its an incomplete version. Being able to have control of time is practically what makes Tsukiyomi unique and reputatble in comparison to other genjutsu. Sasuke has not shown the abilty to control time and so its probably safe to say that its just a regular genjutsu
    the issue is your way of percieving it.

    Sasuke does not have an incomplete version. Itachi just has a more advanced version. that is all

    would you say Itachi has an imcomplete version of Amaterasu because he cannot manipulate it like Sasuke. would you say Minato has an incomplete version of rasengan because he cannot add nature element into it like Naruto.

    its like saying Jiraiya never turned into Sage mode because he had an incomplete versoin while Naruto had full mastery of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by th1s1guysays View Post
    But even the summary is incredibly long. I read but yeah, just saying. :shrug:
    the reason why its all long in the first place is so the noobs can STFU... i wanted to hit every point i could and in fact this was going to be even longer cuz i was going to speak aobut Amaterasu as well but decided to cut that part out. just sayin :shrug:
     
         

  10. #50
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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    Sasuke does have Tsukuyomi, but it takes so much strain and effort and he sucks so much at it that he just settles for regular Genjutsu. He's not using any variation on it, even the way he says Sharingan Genjutsu makes it clear it is generic since he does not like wasting chakra in something he's not good at. His skill lies in Amaterasu, since he's no rank 5 genius.
     
         

  11. #51
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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    funny i made this thread but non of the noobs who strongly believe that Sasuke cant use Tsukiyomi havent even made a strong case in here......
     
         

  12. #52
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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    Quote Originally Posted by NarutoVsGoku View Post
    i never said Itachi used Tsukiyomi the second time.. i did mentioned the second time as an example when Itachi didnt use Tsukiyomi. the second time Kakashis clone was in genjutsu, and Kakashi body was like paper and was on fire, i was noting that this wasnt Tsukiyomi because there is no black and white and also Itachi doesnt have his MS active...

    but thank you on clearing the "Genjutsu Sharingan" thing. i still think it doesnt make sense cuz he has EMS and that has created confusion.
    Oh, I must have read it wrong then for some reason...I took that part out of my post though. And yeah the genjutsu sharingan thing is weird. I don't know why they would show him using EMS if he was just using a simple genjutsu, it is weird. Hell maybe it was Tsukuyomi he used but since his Tsukuyomi is obviously weaker than Itachi's, it looks a little bit different. Who knows.
     
         

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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    Quote Originally Posted by boshans View Post
    Oh, I must have read it wrong then for some reason...I took that part out of my post though. And yeah the genjutsu sharingan thing is weird. I don't know why they would show him using EMS if he was just using a simple genjutsu, it is weird. Hell maybe it was Tsukuyomi he used but since his Tsukuyomi is obviously weaker than Itachi's, it looks a little bit different. Who knows.
    i think thats it and its the most logical answer... i hope Kishi clears this up soon... Sasuke does have Itachis eyes after all and if people thought he couldnt or wasnt using Tsukiyomi before they shouldnt be able to argue that he cant use it now. Sasuke, with Itachis eyes, not only should be able to use Tsukiyomi but able to control time and space
     
         

  14. #54
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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    I think sasuke didn't use Tsukuyomi when he looked into itachi's eyes because he didn't want to waste to much chakra. I always knew he had it I saw against bee, i didn't notice the one against danzo tho nice one
     
         

  15. #55
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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    Fail thread.

    Sasuke does'nt have tsukuyomi, and no it is'nt a must for you to awaken Susanoo. That reasoning is beyond dumb.

    The OP's ridiculous and baseless claim that both tsukuyomi and ametarau are needed to awaken Susanoo can easily be disproved. Edo Madara has susanoo, yet he has'nt once used either Ametarasu or Tsukuyomi, even though there have been many situations shown in which Ametarasu would have helped him, like burning the Mizukage's lava, Gaara's sand etc. So this point about Susanoo requiring Tsukuyomi as an ability is invalid, you need MS in both eyes, it does'nt matter what the specific ability of that Mangekyuo is.

    Most of the other arguments are just assumptions and opinions, not fact, and frankly not worth my time to respond to all of them. But i will say this. A black and white background has'nt always been shown to be present at all times during a Tsukuyomi. Seeing as how the OP gave the manga pages for this himself, we can easily see that Sasuke was caught in Tsukuyomi when he fought Itachi, yet the black and white background only appeared just before Sasuke broke out of it. Yet before that, tsukuyomi was still active(obviously) and the background was normal. Thus disproving the notion that there absolutely has to be a black and white background in a tsukuyomi.

    Almost all the arguments for Sasuke having tsukuyomi that the OP gave are like this, biased and one sided opinions that at best can be called speculations, and this guy parades them around as facts. What a tool lol.

    Oh, and Danzo never said or implied that Sasuke had a weaker version of tsukuyomi, he said Sasuke's genjutsu was nothing compared to Itachi's tsukuyomi. If you lack the basic reading and comprehension skills required to understand this, then you really should'nt be calling out others who's opinions on this topic are far more likely to be correct than yours. Not once has anyone in the manga said or implied that the genjutsu Sasuke uses is Tsukuyomi, you writing walls of text speculating on an unlikely possibility won't change the facts.

    Tsukuyomi is so far an ability only Itachi has been shown to be able to use. And there is no pre condition stated anywhere in the manga that all MS eyes must have the same 2 abilities, i.e Tsukuyomi and Ametarasu. Every MS pair, while being similar, is also unique. For example, Kakashi's MS has Kamuui, nothing to do with either tsukuyomi or Ametarasu. You might say that he is'nt an Uchiha, but then Shisui's Mangekyuo eye had Koto Amatsukami, which is again neither tsukuyomi nor Ametarasu, and he obviously was an Uchiha. So kindly refrain from stating fail things like a Mangekyuo must have both tsukuyomi and Ametarasu.

    Apart from you being a douche, the biggest flaw in your reasoning is that you 'make up' facts on your own. Something that is shown but never stated to be a pre requisite for a tech to be active cannot be stated to be one. You may assume that, or consider it likely but its not a fact until its been stated to be so. Thus, when you say the black and white background means tsukuyomi, that is just your assumption. And a false one as i earlier pointed out that such a background was not shown for the majority of the duration of the tsukuyomi in which Sasuke was caught by Itachi.

    Most of the kids here are easily impressed by a wall of text, i'm afraid even if what it's saying is false. And nobody with half a brain gives a fck about your rep, idiot and nor do they care about the opinion of some fool who can't even think for himself.
     
         
    Last edited by NarutoKage2; 05-12-2012 at 12:31 PM.

  16. #56
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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    Quote Originally Posted by whatsupdealer View Post
    Yeah, you do have a point. But I don't think sasuke is using Tsukiyomi, if he is then its an incomplete version. Being able to have control of time is practically what makes Tsukiyomi unique and reputatble in comparison to other genjutsu. Sasuke has not shown the abilty to control time and so its probably safe to say that its just a regular genjutsu
    You're comparing Itachi's Tsukiyomi to Sasuke's Tsukiyomi.Itachi's Tsukiyomi has the ability to manipulate space and time.Sasuke is in no way as skilled in genjutsu as Itachi, thus his Tsukiyomi isn't as strong as Itachi.Just because a jutsu has the same name, doesn't mean it's strength is the same across the board.Itachi, Madara, and Sasuke all have Susanoo and all three of them have different version with different strength.Look at the abilities shown by each Susanoo then think how Tsukiyomi fits that same mold.
     
         

  17. #57
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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    I read all of it

    i do not agree with you

    1. its not just because it doesnt say tsukyumi in the panel

    - it clearly states Sharingan Genjutsu- its not the absence of the word tsukyumi, but the presence of "sharingan Genjutsu"

    2. when sasuke supposedly used tsukyumi on danzo-- he didnt.

    - even tobi clearly states- he used a weak genjuttsu that only lasts a short amount of time

    3. I believe he has tsukyumi- it just sucks compared to itachis

    - the only times he has ever attempted to use the technique is on BEE and it failed

    - as you yourself clearly stated- everything goes black and when when the technique is used

    - the only time sasuke uses genjutsu and the panel goes black and when (inverted) is when he tried it on BEE and it failed

    he has tsukyumi, but it is weak, and he has never successfully used it in battle
     
         

  18. #58
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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    Quote Originally Posted by soggysombrero View Post
    I read all of it

    i do not agree with you

    1. its not just because it doesnt say tsukyumi in the panel

    - it clearly states Sharingan Genjutsu- its not the absence of the word tsukyumi, but the presence of "sharingan Genjutsu"

    2. when sasuke supposedly used tsukyumi on danzo-- he didnt.

    - even tobi clearly states- he used a weak genjuttsu that only lasts a short amount of time

    3. I believe he has tsukyumi- it just sucks compared to itachis

    - the only times he has ever attempted to use the technique is on BEE and it failed

    - as you yourself clearly stated- everything goes black and when when the technique is used

    - the only time sasuke uses genjutsu and the panel goes black and when (inverted) is when he tried it on BEE and it failed

    he has tsukyumi, but it is weak, and he has never successfully used it in battle
    i like your arguements. well said even though you disagreed. you took the time to read it all and break it down.

    1. you bring up a valid point

    - the "sharingan genjutsu" may not have been said by only Sasuke. yes it is in his panel but it may have been a statement that continues with "Tsukiyomi" in Itachis panel. they could have said it together.

    -"sharingan genjutsu" in that one panel does not mean Sasuke doesnt have Tsukiyomi or has never used it. people take that one panel and say that Sasuke has never used it which is an invalid arguement to make.

    -it also says "tsukutom" in Itachis panel.. so im guessing Itachi isnt using Tsukiyomi either instead he is using "Tsukutomi"

    -Sasuke is not even using the sharingan but an EMS. so the genjutsu is not just a "regular sharingan genjutsu". its an EMS genjutsu. i find theres a fault in translation.

    2. Sasuke did

    - Tobi was comparing Sasukes genjutsu to Itachi and the comparison is that Sasukes genjutsu is weak. we have to remember that Tobi was speaking in context to what Danzo had said ealier, Danzo said Sasukes genjutsus cannot compare to Itachis who can control space and time. so Tobi who agreed with Danzo is saying "your right it is weak [compared to Itachi], but he used it at the right moment"

    -also the background was black and white for Danzo as well

    3. agreed

    - check my OP and you'll see the background with Danzo is black and white as well

    but i like your post.. +rep
     
         

  19. #59
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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    Quote Originally Posted by NarutoVsGoku View Post
    Sasuke does not have an incomplete version. Itachi just has a more advanced version. that is all

    would you say Itachi has an imcomplete version of Amaterasu because he cannot manipulate it like Sasuke. would you say Minato has an incomplete version of rasengan because he cannot add nature element into it like Naruto.

    its like saying Jiraiya never turned into Sage mode because he had an incomplete versoin while Naruto had full mastery of it.


    Yeah you make a good point...I was just confused as I thought what gave 'tsukiyomi' its name and singled it our from just a regular genjutsu was the ability to control time within the genjutsu.

    So sasuke probably does have tsukyomi but its quite controversial as his tsukyomi has no control over time and is no different to itachi's regular genjutsu. Can we really name a genjutsu 'kotamatsukami' when it cannot control another?

    But the Bee fight like you were saying probably was tsukiyomi that sasuke used.
     
         

  20. #60
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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    Quote Originally Posted by whatsupdealer View Post
    Yeah you make a good point...I was just confused as I thought what gave 'tsukiyomi' its name and singled it our from just a regular genjutsu was the ability to control time within the genjutsu.

    So sasuke probably does have tsukyomi but its quite controversial as his tsukyomi has no control over time and is no different to itachi's regular genjutsu. Can we really name a genjutsu 'kotamatsukami' when it cannot control another?

    But the Bee fight like you were saying probably was tsukiyomi that sasuke used.
    idk if its controversal. i understand why the confusion but i dont understand how someone can say he never used it. i mean just looking at the Bee fight..

    and besides theres no limitation to him now because he has Itachis eyes. even if you dont agree that he used Tsukiyomi in the past there shouldnt be any arguements that he can use it now since he has Itachis eyes. and he should also be able to control time and space.

    if he cant than its a plot hole for sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by NarutoKage2 View Post
    Fail thread.

    Sasuke does'nt have tsukuyomi, and no it is'nt a must for you to awaken Susanoo. That reasoning is beyond dumb.

    The OP's ridiculous and baseless claim that both tsukuyomi and ametarau are needed to awaken Susanoo can easily be disproved. Edo Madara has susanoo, yet he has'nt once used either Ametarasu or Tsukuyomi, even though there have been many situations shown in which Ametarasu would have helped him, like burning the Mizukage's lava, Gaara's sand etc. So this point about Susanoo requiring Tsukuyomi as an ability is invalid, you need MS in both eyes, it does'nt matter what the specific ability of that Mangekyuo is.

    Most of the other arguments are just assumptions and opinions, not fact, and frankly not worth my time to respond to all of them. But i will say this. A black and white background has'nt always been shown to be present at all times during a Tsukuyomi. Seeing as how the OP gave the manga pages for this himself, we can easily see that Sasuke was caught in Tsukuyomi when he fought Itachi, yet the black and white background only appeared just before Sasuke broke out of it. Yet before that, tsukuyomi was still active(obviously) and the background was normal. Thus disproving the notion that there absolutely has to be a black and white background in a tsukuyomi.

    Almost all the arguments for Sasuke having tsukuyomi that the OP gave are like this, biased and one sided opinions that at best can be called speculations, and this guy parades them around as facts. What a tool lol.

    Oh, and Danzo never said or implied that Sasuke had a weaker version of tsukuyomi, he said Sasuke's genjutsu was nothing compared to Itachi's tsukuyomi. If you lack the basic reading and comprehension skills required to understand this, then you really should'nt be calling out others who's opinions on this topic are far more likely to be correct than yours. Not once has anyone in the manga said or implied that the genjutsu Sasuke uses is Tsukuyomi, you writing walls of text speculating on an unlikely possibility won't change the facts.

    Tsukuyomi is so far an ability only Itachi has been shown to be able to use. And there is no pre condition stated anywhere in the manga that all MS eyes must have the same 2 abilities, i.e Tsukuyomi and Ametarasu. Every MS pair, while being similar, is also unique. For example, Kakashi's MS has Kamuui, nothing to do with either tsukuyomi or Ametarasu. You might say that he is'nt an Uchiha, but then Shisui's Mangekyuo eye had Koto Amatsukami, which is again neither tsukuyomi nor Ametarasu, and he obviously was an Uchiha. So kindly refrain from stating fail things like a Mangekyuo must have both tsukuyomi and Ametarasu.

    Apart from you being a douche, the biggest flaw in your reasoning is that you 'make up' facts on your own. Something that is shown but never stated to be a pre requisite for a tech to be active cannot be stated to be one. You may assume that, or consider it likely but its not a fact until its been stated to be so. Thus, when you say the black and white background means tsukuyomi, that is just your assumption. And a false one as i earlier pointed out that such a background was not shown for the majority of the duration of the tsukuyomi in which Sasuke was caught by Itachi.

    Most of the kids here are easily impressed by a wall of text, i'm afraid even if what it's saying is false. And nobody with half a brain gives a fck about your rep, idiot and nor do they care about the opinion of some fool who can't even think for himself.


    im not discussing this with lower life forms
     
         

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