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  1. #61
    Senior Comedian Member -The Agent-'s Avatar
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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    Quote Originally Posted by NarutoKage2 View Post
    Fail thread.

    Sasuke does'nt have tsukuyomi, and no it is'nt a must for you to awaken Susanoo. That reasoning is beyond dumb.

    The OP's ridiculous and baseless claim that both tsukuyomi and ametarau are needed to awaken Susanoo can easily be disproved. Edo Madara has susanoo, yet he has'nt once used either Ametarasu or Tsukuyomi, even though there have been many situations shown in which Ametarasu would have helped him, like burning the Mizukage's lava, Gaara's sand etc. So this point about Susanoo requiring Tsukuyomi as an ability is invalid, you need MS in both eyes, it does'nt matter what the specific ability of that Mangekyuo is.

    Most of the other arguments are just assumptions and opinions, not fact, and frankly not worth my time to respond to all of them. But i will say this. A black and white background has'nt always been shown to be present at all times during a Tsukuyomi. Seeing as how the OP gave the manga pages for this himself, we can easily see that Sasuke was caught in Tsukuyomi when he fought Itachi, yet the black and white background only appeared just before Sasuke broke out of it. Yet before that, tsukuyomi was still active(obviously) and the background was normal. Thus disproving the notion that there absolutely has to be a black and white background in a tsukuyomi.

    Almost all the arguments for Sasuke having tsukuyomi that the OP gave are like this, biased and one sided opinions that at best can be called speculations, and this guy parades them around as facts. What a tool lol.

    Oh, and Danzo never said or implied that Sasuke had a weaker version of tsukuyomi, he said Sasuke's genjutsu was nothing compared to Itachi's tsukuyomi. If you lack the basic reading and comprehension skills required to understand this, then you really should'nt be calling out others who's opinions on this topic are far more likely to be correct than yours. Not once has anyone in the manga said or implied that the genjutsu Sasuke uses is Tsukuyomi, you writing walls of text speculating on an unlikely possibility won't change the facts.

    Tsukuyomi is so far an ability only Itachi has been shown to be able to use. And there is no pre condition stated anywhere in the manga that all MS eyes must have the same 2 abilities, i.e Tsukuyomi and Ametarasu. Every MS pair, while being similar, is also unique. For example, Kakashi's MS has Kamuui, nothing to do with either tsukuyomi or Ametarasu. You might say that he is'nt an Uchiha, but then Shisui's Mangekyuo eye had Koto Amatsukami, which is again neither tsukuyomi nor Ametarasu, and he obviously was an Uchiha. So kindly refrain from stating fail things like a Mangekyuo must have both tsukuyomi and Ametarasu.

    Apart from you being a douche, the biggest flaw in your reasoning is that you 'make up' facts on your own. Something that is shown but never stated to be a pre requisite for a tech to be active cannot be stated to be one. You may assume that, or consider it likely but its not a fact until its been stated to be so. Thus, when you say the black and white background means tsukuyomi, that is just your assumption. And a false one as i earlier pointed out that such a background was not shown for the majority of the duration of the tsukuyomi in which Sasuke was caught by Itachi.

    Most of the kids here are easily impressed by a wall of text, i'm afraid even if what it's saying is false. And nobody with half a brain gives a fck about your rep, idiot and nor do they care about the opinion of some fool who can't even think for himself.

    Thread is not really a fail, and I don't know how many times this has to be said.

    Sasuke does have Tsukuyomi. Just because his version is not as strong as Itachi's doesn't mean he can't use the tech...

    Sasuke can also perform Tsukuyomi with his right eye, though his illusion is considered inferior to Itachi's Tsukuyomi since it does not alter the opponent's perception of time indicating he has yet to master it.
    Sasuke uses Tsukuyomi to control Amaterasu creating blaze release. He uses his Tsukuyomi for creating shape to amaterasu, while Itachi used it to control time and space. But Sasuke's inferiority to Itachi in genjutsu is understandable, because that was his specialty.

    As for needed both for Susano'o I agree. Madara hasn't shown either technique but he still has Susano'o. Look at Shisui he has Kotoamatsukami so that must mean you don't need Tsukuyomi for Susano'o. So I agree with you on that aspect. But since Sasuke and Itachi are brothers they are inverses in terms of MS eye techniques. It would make sense they have the same techniques.

    Even though he has shown to have use of the technique and you make the argument that he doesn't. It's all irrelevant now since he has EMS. If he has Itachi's eyes, he has Tsukuyomi. (that's just another argument)
     
         

  2. #62
    Senior Member NarutoKage2's Avatar
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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    Quote Originally Posted by -The Agent- View Post
    Thread is not really a fail, and I don't know how many times this has to be said.

    Sasuke does have Tsukuyomi. Just because his version is not as strong as Itachi's doesn't mean he can't use the tech...



    Sasuke uses Tsukuyomi to control Amaterasu creating blaze release. He uses his Tsukuyomi for creating shape to amaterasu, while Itachi used it to control time and space. But Sasuke's inferiority to Itachi in genjutsu is understandable, because that was his specialty.

    As for needed both for Susano'o I agree. Madara hasn't shown either technique but he still has Susano'o. Look at Shisui he has Kotoamatsukami so that must mean you don't need Tsukuyomi for Susano'o. So I agree with you on that aspect. But since Sasuke and Itachi are brothers they are inverses in terms of MS eye techniques. It would make sense they have the same techniques.

    Even though he has shown to have use of the technique and you make the argument that he doesn't. It's all irrelevant now since he has EMS. If he has Itachi's eyes, he has Tsukuyomi. (that's just another argument)
    Well thanks for agreeing about the Susanoo argument, and about the difference in MS abilities. These were both arguments put up by the OP to support his claim, and look at how he has decided to ignore them, truth hurts maybe? . That's why i called his thread a fail, because he is stating his own speculations as fact.

    There is a difference in Sasuke and Itachi's abilities, even with the MS(or EMS in Sasuke's case). I think you might be on to something, when you say that instead of a powerful genjutsu, Sasuke uses Blaze release by manipulating Ametarasu. He probably traded off that power for this. But you see, when i say tsukuyomi, i am referring to the specific genjutsu that Itachi used, which made an instant feel like 72 hours for the victim. Its possible that the space manipulation used in that tech is being used for Ametarasu manipulation by Sasuke, but then it no longer is tsukuyomi, as that was the name given to that specific illusion technique.

    Thus i disagree, but you have a good point that is rational. I think you should make a thread on this, this is a solid theory material: the space and time manipulation of Tsukuyomi, and the possibility to separately use each of them. In my opinion, this separation would mean that you now have a new technique, i.e it cannot be called the same illusion tech Itachi used.
     
         

  3. #63
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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    Quote Originally Posted by NarutoKage2 View Post
    Fail thread.

    Sasuke does'nt have tsukuyomi, and no it is'nt a must for you to awaken Susanoo. That reasoning is beyond dumb.

    The OP's ridiculous and baseless claim that both tsukuyomi and ametarau are needed to awaken Susanoo can easily be disproved. Edo Madara has susanoo, yet he has'nt once used either Ametarasu or Tsukuyomi, even though there have been many situations shown in which Ametarasu would have helped him, like burning the Mizukage's lava, Gaara's sand etc. So this point about Susanoo requiring Tsukuyomi as an ability is invalid, you need MS in both eyes, it does'nt matter what the specific ability of that Mangekyuo is.

    Most of the other arguments are just assumptions and opinions, not fact, and frankly not worth my time to respond to all of them. But i will say this. A black and white background has'nt always been shown to be present at all times during a Tsukuyomi. Seeing as how the OP gave the manga pages for this himself, we can easily see that Sasuke was caught in Tsukuyomi when he fought Itachi, yet the black and white background only appeared just before Sasuke broke out of it. Yet before that, tsukuyomi was still active(obviously) and the background was normal. Thus disproving the notion that there absolutely has to be a black and white background in a tsukuyomi.

    Almost all the arguments for Sasuke having tsukuyomi that the OP gave are like this, biased and one sided opinions that at best can be called speculations, and this guy parades them around as facts. What a tool lol.

    Oh, and Danzo never said or implied that Sasuke had a weaker version of tsukuyomi, he said Sasuke's genjutsu was nothing compared to Itachi's tsukuyomi. If you lack the basic reading and comprehension skills required to understand this, then you really should'nt be calling out others who's opinions on this topic are far more likely to be correct than yours. Not once has anyone in the manga said or implied that the genjutsu Sasuke uses is Tsukuyomi, you writing walls of text speculating on an unlikely possibility won't change the facts.

    Tsukuyomi is so far an ability only Itachi has been shown to be able to use. And there is no pre condition stated anywhere in the manga that all MS eyes must have the same 2 abilities, i.e Tsukuyomi and Ametarasu. Every MS pair, while being similar, is also unique. For example, Kakashi's MS has Kamuui, nothing to do with either tsukuyomi or Ametarasu. You might say that he is'nt an Uchiha, but then Shisui's Mangekyuo eye had Koto Amatsukami, which is again neither tsukuyomi nor Ametarasu, and he obviously was an Uchiha. So kindly refrain from stating fail things like a Mangekyuo must have both tsukuyomi and Ametarasu.

    Apart from you being a douche, the biggest flaw in your reasoning is that you 'make up' facts on your own. Something that is shown but never stated to be a pre requisite for a tech to be active cannot be stated to be one. You may assume that, or consider it likely but its not a fact until its been stated to be so. Thus, when you say the black and white background means tsukuyomi, that is just your assumption. And a false one as i earlier pointed out that such a background was not shown for the majority of the duration of the tsukuyomi in which Sasuke was caught by Itachi.

    Most of the kids here are easily impressed by a wall of text, i'm afraid even if what it's saying is false. And nobody with half a brain gives a fck about your rep, idiot and nor do they care about the opinion of some fool who can't even think for himself.
    Quote Originally Posted by NarutoKage2 View Post
    Well thanks for agreeing about the Susanoo argument, and about the difference in MS abilities. These were both arguments put up by the OP to support his claim, and look at how he has decided to ignore them, truth hurts maybe? . That's why i called his thread a fail, because he is stating his own speculations as fact.

    There is a difference in Sasuke and Itachi's abilities, even with the MS(or EMS in Sasuke's case). I think you might be on to something, when you say that instead of a powerful genjutsu, Sasuke uses Blaze release by manipulating Ametarasu. He probably traded off that power for this. But you see, when i say tsukuyomi, i am referring to the specific genjutsu that Itachi used, which made an instant feel like 72 hours for the victim. Its possible that the space manipulation used in that tech is being used for Ametarasu manipulation by Sasuke, but then it no longer is tsukuyomi, as that was the name given to that specific illusion technique.

    Thus i disagree, but you have a good point that is rational. I think you should make a thread on this, this is a solid theory material: the space and time manipulation of Tsukuyomi, and the possibility to separately use each of them. In my opinion, this separation would mean that you now have a new technique, i.e it cannot be called the same illusion tech Itachi used.
    Well Danzo did say Sasuke used Tsukuyomi...basically:



    He didn't just say genjutsu, he said Tsukuyomi. To me that means he is obviously referring to Sasuke's Tsukuyomi being weaker than Itachi's. Also I don't know where it is said that Sasuke uses Tsukuyomi to manipulate Amaterasu. Yes Sasuke uses his right eye to manipulate the black flames, which is also his Tsukuyomi eye, but I don't see how he is using Tsukuyomi to do that.

    Either way, just because his Tsukuyomi is weaker than Itachi's, does NOT mean that he isn't using Tsukuyomi. It still is Tsukuyomi, he just cannot control the amount of time that the person it is cast on feels like has passed. It still would be Tsukuyomi though.

    Also, I don't see how that the panel not being in black and white during the beginning of the time Itachi used Tsu on Sasuke, discredits the entire theory. It still turned black and white did it not? So therefore the colors turning black and white, more specifically the skin turns black and clothes white with black background, is still a unique occurrence to Tsukuyomi is it not? Just because it didn't happen right away, it still HAPPENED. It doesn't mean anything that the entire thing wasn't in the color scheme, the color scheme still was there. The only time this happens is during Tsukuyomi, so if it occurs at any time in the Genjutsu, it is Tsukuyomi. If the color scheme during that STAYED normal colors, it would be a normal Genjutsu, but it didn't, it turned black and white. Meaning it is Tsukuyomi.
     
         

  4. #64
    Senior Member psukkar's Avatar
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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    any one that says sasuke cant use Tsukiyomi is a moron.

    (Note: Tsukiyomi is a gay name, I like it when some1 esle spells it right so i can copy and paste)


    Sasuke tried using it on killer bee, the most obvious case of it. Sasuke even used it again just before to get infomation of killerbess whereabouts.

    Sasuke used the left eye inboth cases and held his eye with his arm in both cases.

    OP i think u wasted ur time on explaining this to the guys on NB who think sasuke cant use it.

    And i did read it all because it you put alot effort in this to just explain clearly to these noobs that 1+1 infact equals 2.
     
         
    Last edited by psukkar; 05-13-2012 at 08:39 AM.

  5. #65
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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    Before the last chapter, I was like 90% sure Sasuke did have Tsukuyomi. I still believe he does, but seeing what people have said im not as sure as before.
    For Danzo comment, we would need to know whether the emphesis was on "Itachi's" or "Tsukuyomi". I guess the only way we could find out is when the dubbed version comes out.
    But if Sasuke's other MS technique isn't Tsukuyomi, then are people saying he has a weak genjutsu which doesn't last long as an MS technique? That seems weird.
     
         

  6. #66
    NB's Number 1 Cam's Avatar
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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    Thank You!!! I've been trying to tell those guys from the other thread, Sasuke CAN use it. I'm glad you made this thread!
     
         

  7. #67
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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    Quote Originally Posted by iSpeak View Post
    Before the last chapter, I was like 90% sure Sasuke did have Tsukuyomi. I still believe he does, but seeing what people have said im not as sure as before.
    For Danzo comment, we would need to know whether the emphesis was on "Itachi's" or "Tsukuyomi". I guess the only way we could find out is when the dubbed version comes out.
    But if Sasuke's other MS technique isn't Tsukuyomi, then are people saying he has a weak genjutsu which doesn't last long as an MS technique? That seems weird.
    dont be influenced by noobs. did you read the first post or anything in this thread?
     
         

  8. #68
    Senior Member Inception's Avatar
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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    Sasuke does have the Tsukiyomi but he's really really bad at using it. Danzo compared Sasuke's Tsukiyomi to Itachi's and said the difference is that of sky and earth.
     
         

  9. #69
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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    I'm glad that I read all of it. This should clear up the confusion that people are having with Sasuke having Tsukuyomi. I can't believe people get worked up over two crappy translated lines when it has already been long established that Sasuke has Tsukuyomi, albeit a weaker version
     
         

  10. #70
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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    Well said and very well done on the effort here.

    I already thought this though.

    My only critisism was at the start, you said you will +rep those who read this, but would -rep those people you don't like....that's kinda a **** move. What if you don't like them, but they took the time to read your work?

    You should give everyone who reads this amount of your text some form of props.

    Anyway, great post.
     
         

  11. #71
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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinnister View Post
    No offense but it will be hard for others to read the WHOLE thing.
    i agree ,read some of it found out a few things i screwed up on my thread about sasuke and tsukoyomi
     
         

  12. #72
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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    I read it i think sasuke has tsukiyomi has used it once or twice but i think he doesnt use it as much cuz it might have a bad side effect not like izanagi(+ agree that itachi was far more advanced in genjutsu so he could use it more often ect(like imagine if it drained your life more and more you use it would explain one of the reasons itachi was dying)

    I could be wrong so meh
     
         

  13. #73
    ☆NR#1 Stalker on NB☆ Aze's Avatar
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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    Sasuke has Tsukiyomi , but just weaker than Itachis , Most likely Itachi used and developed Tsukiyomi too its maximum potential = Reason = Itachi was not a violent man , he was a pure pacifist = He needed a Jutsu , that can be usefull = make enemies surrender and give out information = that's why He has so good controll over it.

    Sasuke on the other hand is a more violent fighter = leans on the power of Susanoo and Amaterasu more often.

    It's just a matter of Jutsu developing = each Jutsu gets better if you use it alot and try to surpass the previous limits.


    Thank you :scorps:
     
         

  14. #74
    OH LONG JOHNSON edo tensai wilmaso's Avatar
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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    the main reason why people get confused is because of this...


    from the data book..... powers of sharingan
    "The Sharingan's final commonly-used ability is capable of inducing a unique brand of hypnosis that involves suggesting actions and thoughts to the opponent through genjutsu cast by simple eye contact between both parties"
    ^^^ this is not tyoskiyomi or however its spelled.
    the only issue i have is that he said or thought "sharingan genjutsu" in which every sharingan user can do.... i think that sasuke does have it but since it's not at the level of itachi i guess its just a genjutsu and not tyoskyomi level
     
         

  15. #75
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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    Quote Originally Posted by edo tensai wilmaso View Post
    the main reason why people get confused is because of this...


    from the data book..... powers of sharingan
    "The Sharingan's final commonly-used ability is capable of inducing a unique brand of hypnosis that involves suggesting actions and thoughts to the opponent through genjutsu cast by simple eye contact between both parties"
    ^^^ this is not tyoskiyomi or however its spelled.
    the only issue i have is that he said or thought "sharingan genjutsu" in which every sharingan user can do.... i think that sasuke does have it but since it's not at the level of itachi i guess its just a genjutsu and not tyoskyomi level
    first off give me a link to the data books.

    second off from that lil post all it is talking about is the sharingan. its speaks about the sharingans ability to use genjutsu. there are different types of genjutsus. some paralyze the opponent, some make them go to sleep, some allows the opponent to be controlled, brainwashed, manipulated, make people see things that arent really there (mirage), some forces the opponent to give valuable info and some will break the will of an opponent and could even kill.

    so when it says sharingan can use genjutsu, that is such a vauge and general statement that it means nothing. we all know the sharingan can use genjutsu, specificly genjutsus like Tsukiyomi. we know this.

    idk how anybody could be confused from this. maybe i missed something in your comment
     
         

  16. #76
    F**k You! GodaimeRaikage's Avatar
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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    Quote Originally Posted by -The Agent- View Post
    Thread is not really a fail, and I don't know how many times this has to be said.

    Sasuke does have Tsukuyomi. Just because his version is not as strong as Itachi's doesn't mean he can't use the tech...



    Sasuke uses Tsukuyomi to control Amaterasu creating blaze release. He uses his Tsukuyomi for creating shape to amaterasu, while Itachi used it to control time and space. But Sasuke's inferiority to Itachi in genjutsu is understandable, because that was his specialty.

    As for needed both for Susano'o I agree. Madara hasn't shown either technique but he still has Susano'o. Look at Shisui he has Kotoamatsukami so that must mean you don't need Tsukuyomi for Susano'o. So I agree with you on that aspect. But since Sasuke and Itachi are brothers they are inverses in terms of MS eye techniques. It would make sense they have the same techniques.

    Even though he has shown to have use of the technique and you make the argument that he doesn't. It's all irrelevant now since he has EMS. If he has Itachi's eyes, he has Tsukuyomi. (that's just another argument)
    Well, you can't say Shisui doesn't have Tsukuyomi because he has Kotoamatsukami.Kotoamatsukami was never stated as being an ability given to you by MS.My theory is that Kotoamatsukami is a genjutsu Shisui created with his MS, just like Sasuke created Blaze Release with his MS.Furthermore, we can't say what jutsu Shisui has or doesn't have.We have never seen Shisui in battle and we know all of two jutsu from him.It pretty safe to say Shisui had more than two jutsu.My personal belief is that Shisui had amaterasu, tsukuyomi, and Susanoo base on my belief that anyone who awakens MS in both eyes have those abilities.
     
         

  17. #77
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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    Well researched!
     
         

  18. #78
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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    Quote Originally Posted by GodaimeRaikage View Post
    Well, you can't say Shisui doesn't have Tsukuyomi because he has Kotoamatsukami.Kotoamatsukami was never stated as being an ability given to you by MS.My theory is that Kotoamatsukami is a genjutsu Shisui created with his MS, just like Sasuke created Blaze Release with his MS.Furthermore, we can't say what jutsu Shisui has or doesn't have.We have never seen Shisui in battle and we know all of two jutsu from him.It pretty safe to say Shisui had more than two jutsu.My personal belief is that Shisui had amaterasu, tsukuyomi, and Susanoo base on my belief that anyone who awakens MS in both eyes have those abilities.
    Kotoamatsukami is a technique that is inherent within Shisui's eyes. In other words, its not a technique that just anybody with a MS sharingan has the potential to perform. Its pretty well known that Shisui's eyes were extremely sought after and characters in the manga don't even seem to care which eye(left or right) they could get their hands on. They seem to want either one of Shisui's eyes and they want it for the fact that Kotoamatsukami is inherent within either of them. If Kotoamatsukami was created by Shisui, then it would not be inherent specifically to his eyes and it would not makes sense as to why his eyes specifically are such extremely sought after sharingans.

    Also, the crow with Shisui's eye activated its MS before it used Kotoamatsukami in Itachi, which implies that Kotoamatsukami is a MS technique.

    And, from what we've seen in the manga, MS users tend to have three MS jutsus.:
    1. a right eye jutsu (e.g. amaterasu, tsukuyomi, kotoamatsukami)
    2. a left eye jutsu (e.g. amaterasu, tsukuyomi, kotoamatsukami)
    3. and a jutsu that uses both eyes(e.g. Susanoo)

    I believe that Shisui had Kotoamatsukami individually in each of his eyes. in other words:
    left eye MS jutsu = Kotoamatsukami
    right eye MS jutsu = Kotoamatsukami
    both eye MS jutsu = unknown

    Danzo had the right eye and used Kotoamatsukami on Mifune and planned to use it again in his confrontation with Sasuke and Tobi. Itachi had the left eye and placed it in a crow. The crow used the technique on Itachi.

    All of which boils down to this conclusion... Shisui did not have Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu as an inherent ability in any of his eyes.
     
         
    Last edited by Sarutobi Sasuke; 05-16-2012 at 01:43 PM.

  19. #79
    Uchiha member. ixc's Avatar
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    Re: Lets Get Some Things Straight (Tsukiyomi)

    Notice how Itachi said only an Uchiha member can kill me. Enough said, Itachi above all.
     
         

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