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  1. #1
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    Plot Holes and Contradiction in "at 9..."

    For me, Itachi's explanation of Izanami and Izanagi seem to raise more questions then it answers.

    Apparently, the purpose of Izanami was to "punish and save the users of Izanagi". (587, 3) <---(MLA because I'm used to it haha; although techinically it's not in proper MLA format)

    Itachi claimed that those who used it would become arrogant and use it too much. He also said that one person using it wasn't a problem. It was only a problem when multiple people were using it and bickering over which reality to use...

    Hold on though, didn't Tobi himself say that Izanagi granted complete control over one's own "personal reality", the "ultimate jutsu meant only to be used on oneself" (479, 4)

    First of all, how can using Izanagi "multiple times" be a problem if the consequence is that you lose your eyesight. I'm guessing for an uchiha, losing one eye might be worth it, but both eyes? My guess is that unless something of grave importance threatened you, most Uchiha's were probably only willing to use it once in their lifetime, provided that they even could use it (Itachi doesn't explain how many were able to do so).

    Second of all, how can Izanagi users argue which "reality" to choose from if it only affects the individual using it? Is it just me, or, When reading the manga, did you got the sense that the Uchiha's were using Izanagi to change other people's destiny or to determine "destiny" in the bigger picture instead just your own?

    Third reason is an extension of my first point, but if you look at the diagram in this chapter on page 5, it implies that Izanagi users were using Izanagi as many as 3 TIMES, THREE TIMES!!! When did Uchiha's start having 3 eyes?

    Fourth, this is more of a complaint, but how exactly did Izanagi make its users arrogant? How does changing your destiny for a minimal of one or two times (which doesn't even guarantee that you'll win or live anyway, look at Danzo) and on top of that losing your eyesight make you arrogant?! It baffles me.

    I know this thread is starting to get long, but I want to discuss what for me is Itachi blatantly contradicting himself.

    In page 9, Itachi says to Sasuke "don't say I'm perfect, first of all..."

    This is interrupted by Kabuto's story, but is then picked up at page 14, where Itachi says to Sasuke:

    "You should've acknowledged your real self. That way you wouldn't have had to tell lies like I did...and lies also make you unable to look at your own self"

    That was a really heartwarming speech Itachi, but why in the world are you lecturing Sasuke about not lying to himself when you're the one telling him all the lies? You are the source of all of Sasuke's problems and internal conflicts. It's like telling a child who doesn't know any better that Santa exists, and then scolding him for lying to himself about the existence of Santa. Are you serious Itachi?

    At first I though he was talking to Kabuto, but there's no doubt he's talking to Sasuke.

    Last, I want to go over this contradiction in page 6:

    "This techinique is used to teach people not to rely on jutsu..."

    Wait, did you really just say (I'm putting it in other words, but retaining the essence) that this jutsu is used to teach people not to rely on jutsu??? What?!

    That's like trying to teach someone a lesson about how bullying is bad by being a bully to them. It's hypocrisy. And what, are ninjas no longer expected to use jutsu anymore, or just jutsu that "change's destiny".

    Actually, I won't go into this arena of philosophy as much as I'd like to. I've already spent enough time writing as it is, but I will say that it clear that Kishimoto doesn't understand the difference between fate and destiny, because there is a logical violation in the philosophical claims that Itachi is making.

    I'll just say that either everything is determined and is fate, or nothing is and Itachi is full of bull when he says that "people ought to accept their own destiny". It's ironic that Kabuto's destiny is created and manipulated by Itachi; What he should've said was "Kabuto ought to accept my destiny, the one I determined for him. How is this different from Izanagi, philosophically speaking? It's not, both are used to control and determine desired results. Itachi's ramble is complete and utter hypocrisy.

    Anyway, these are my initial thoughts. I'm willing to change my thoughts if you present some good evidence or arguments. It's possible I overlooked something or that I'm wrong, so let's have a calm and intellectual discussion about this chapter. What are your thoughts? Do you agree or disagree and why?
     
         

  2. #2
    ☆NR#1 Stalker on NB☆ Aze's Avatar
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    Re: Plot Holes and Contradiction in "at 9..."

    Madara Uchiha will explain it all , dont worry , but + rep for the effort for making this in great Detail.

    Ill rank this thread 8/10 and leave room for improvement aswell.

    Thank you.

    :scorps:
     
         

  3. #3
    Konohas Flasher Narutohokage7's Avatar
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    Re: Plot Holes and Contradiction in "at 9..."

    Poor chapter IMO too much explaining for just on jutsu I want to get away from the current fight to Naruto vs Tobi or kages vs Madera
     
         

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    Re: Plot Holes and Contradiction in "at 9..."

    It would make sense if it was Inanami that was being used first and then Izanagi was made to counter it, maybe it was a translation error.
     
         

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    Re: Plot Holes and Contradiction in "at 9..."

    Three words : PLOT NO JUTSU !
     
         

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    Re: Plot Holes and Contradiction in "at 9..."

    Quote Originally Posted by Chi No Kage View Post
    Madara Uchiha will explain it all , dont worry , but + rep for the effort for making this in great Detail.

    Ill rank this thread 8/10 and leave room for improvement aswell.

    Thank you.

    :scorps:
    Thank you, I wish I could've taken more time to polish my arguments, but I have a final exam in less than two hours, so I had to write this hastily.
     
         

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    The Byakugan user of NB! Draegod's Avatar
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    Re: Plot Holes and Contradiction in "at 9..."

    I think the arrogant part came from them taking each other eyes onece they knew they could keep doing it that way. Look at Kakashi and obito, he was able to take his eye and transplant it. Oru, danzou, and tobi collected them. Im guessing in the battles that many uchihas that didnt use the izanagi died the ones that did took there eyes and kept using them down the road. That is what mad ethem arrogant because they knew how to use and keep using the tech.

    Like a "i want die, and when you do ill take your eyes" type of situation. That is why Uchihas made izanami to make them not use izanagi and finally die!
     
         

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    Re: Plot Holes and Contradiction in "at 9..."

    the izanami user doesnt decide anything. Izanagi user does for himself and thats why izanami is counter towards izanagi.

    Kabuto has to be the one that gets out the jutsu. Itachi just starts the jutsu.

    Izanami doent tell the user what the persons destiny is. Its like asking an answer to a question that doesnt exist.
     
         

  9. #9
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    Re: Plot Holes and Contradiction in "at 9..."

    I agree, didnt make much sense
     
         

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    Re: Plot Holes and Contradiction in "at 9..."

    Its to early to say anything about izanami and how it works, because the translation are really bad, well just have to wait for the MangaStream translations.
     
         

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    Re: Plot Holes and Contradiction in "at 9..."

    Izanagi and izanami are uchihas own jutsu a true blood uchiha is able to use it if skilled enough. Itachi also wasnt scolding sasuke but telling him about the mistake he made himself in order to manipulate his brother, he did this because he is saying i dont want u to be like me. This is the talk sasuke wanted.
     
         

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    Member Guilty as Sin's Avatar
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    Re: Plot Holes and Contradiction in "at 9..."

    Quote Originally Posted by Draegod View Post
    I think the arrogant part came from them taking each other eyes onece they knew they could keep doing it that way. Look at Kakashi and obito, he was able to take his eye and transplant it. Oru, danzou, and tobi collected them. Im guessing in the battles that many uchihas that didnt use the izanagi died the ones that did took there eyes and kept using them down the road. That is what mad ethem arrogant because they knew how to use and keep using the tech.

    Like a "i want die, and when you do ill take your eyes" type of situation. That is why Uchihas made izanami to make them not use izanagi and finally die!
    I wondered about that. Itachi doesn't have the eternal mangekyou, so it makes sense that he went blind. Does that mean that people like Sasuke can spam Izanagi and Izanami? Has that been suggested in the manga? Is that even fair?

    But now that I think about it, that is the only way that this could make sense. In other words, if Izanagi wasn't spammable and you could only use it a couple of times, then it makes you wonder how Izanami users could teach them a lesson before they used it. You can only really abuse Izanagi if you can use it indefinitely , so it possibly means, as you suggested, that the people abusing Izanagi were using it multiple times without consequence because they had the eternal mangekyou.

    But that raises some questions: That would have to mean that, given Itachi's statement that many people were using it, many people had the eternal mangekyou. That might not be a problem for some to accept, although I was under the impression that only a few could achieve that enormous feat.

    Another problem would be the fact that this just another reason to criticize Kishimoto for making the Uchiha too powerful. Infinite Izanagi and Izanami? This is getting out of hand.

    Anyway, that's a really good catch, + rep for it.
     
         

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    Re: Plot Holes and Contradiction in "at 9..."

    Quote Originally Posted by Guilty as Sin View Post
    I wondered about that. Itachi doesn't have the eternal mangekyou, so it makes sense that he went blind. Does that mean that people like Sasuke can spam Izanagi and Izanami? Has that been suggested in the manga? Is that even fair?

    But now that I think about it, that is the only way that this could make sense. In other words, if Izanagi wasn't spammable and you could only use it a couple of times, then it makes you wonder how Izanami users could teach them a lesson before they used it. You can only really abuse Izanagi if you can use it indefinitely , so it possibly means, as you suggested, that the people abusing Izanagi were using it multiple times without consequence because they had the eternal mangekyou.

    But that raises some questions: That would have to mean that, given Itachi's statement that many people were using it, many people had the eternal mangekyou. That might not be a problem for some to accept, although I was under the impression that only a few could achieve that enormous feat.

    Another problem would be the fact that this just another reason to criticize Kishimoto for making the Uchiha too powerful. Infinite Izanagi and Izanami? This is getting out of hand.

    Anyway, that's a really good catch, + rep for it.
    Well the EMS thought is not possible either. Only two people have EVER gotten the EMS, Madara and Sasuke. That HAS been stated in the manga, soo the Uchiha Itachi was talking about using Izanagi did not have EMS.

    I'm going with the stealing eyes theory. Makes more sense than anything else so far lol.
     
         

  14. #14
    Member Guilty as Sin's Avatar
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    Re: Plot Holes and Contradiction in "at 9..."

    Quote Originally Posted by psukkar View Post
    the izanami user doesnt decide anything. Izanagi user does for himself and thats why izanami is counter towards izanagi.

    Kabuto has to be the one that gets out the jutsu. Itachi just starts the jutsu.

    Izanami doent tell the user what the persons destiny is. Its like asking an answer to a question that doesnt exist.
    Hmm, good point. However, I do want to point out that In page 6, Itachi says "I want him to realize this before dying, unlike me". It's clear that Itachi wants to benefit Kabuto and enlighten him because he sympathizes with him.

    Izanagi is supposed to choose an alternative to reality and make that alternative the reality. Izanami says no, I'm not letting you choose an alternate reality, stick with the path that has been destined for you.

    But Kabuto isn't using Izanagi. He isn't trying to change any reality. Izanami is therefore being used in a way that hasn't been explained--an a new way, would you agree?

    So if Itachi's Izanami is not being used to "reset" a destiny, what is it being used for? again, it's clear that Itachi wishes to enlighten Kabuto by forcing him in a neverending loop where the only way he can escape is if he finally accepts who he is.

    I don't fully understand this Jutsu... I don't think any of us does. But for me, it seems that Itachi is deciding something; he's manipulating Kabuto and slowly pushing him to accept who he is through his jutsu. You decide what that means.

    Anyway, I'm going to take my exam now, I'lll be back later.
     
         

  15. #15
    Senior Member Q of the Sharingan's Avatar
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    Re: Plot Holes and Contradiction in "at 9..."

    I will try to give you legitimate answers to your 5 points

    1st point: Lets say that an Uchiha has already lost one eye from the use of Izanagi. He can then attack another Uchiha, kill him, and take his eyes. Even if he gets in trouble, he can use Izanagi again and still get two more fresh eyes. This makes him arrogant in the fact that he thinks he is unbeatable and can just keep killing his clanmates to restore his sight. That is how fights with two Uchiha using Izanagi could have started.

    2nd point: Two Izanagi users are only deciding their own fates with the jutsu. They can affect the other in a way though. If someone is using Izanagi and uses a high chakra consuming technique on his opponent, who is also using Izanagi, then he can erase that moment to save chakra after his opponent erases the moment of himself getting hit. See how this can be confusing and wasteful for both parties?

    3rd point: The three eye thing was just a representation for the introductino of Izanami. The other two eyes close because the two Uchiha each used Izanagi in their fight with each other.

    4th point: Danzo was at a disadvantage because Sasuke has Susanoo and he was an idiot because he had so many eyes. Wouldn't the ability to erase one's mistakes from history give anybody a god complex? Like I said, Uchiha could also fight to take each others eyes, which would explain the instances with two parties using Izanagi.

    5th point: I think that the whole jutsu to stop people from using jutsu thing is a bad translation. He means that it is to stop people from erasing their own mistakes and to be what fate has planned for them to be. Kabuto performed physical experiments upon himself that has basically changed his physiological make up. That is an abomination to nature. His "fate" wasn't to become a snake person with 5 different people stuck in his carcass. If he had gotten to this point naturally, just training for the snake sage mode, then it wouldn't be a problem. This could also be a hint to the EMS concept of stealing another's eyes to regain light. Accept that you are blind and do not unnaturally change your fate. (Dangit Sasuke, you are still my fav character though.) That gives a deeper meaning to why Itachi programmed the KA crow to activate it saw his MS, just in case Sasuke implanted his eyes.
     
         

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    Re: Plot Holes and Contradiction in "at 9..."

    I understand the philosophy of what your saying, jutsu's work, and how it might have been possible. Izanami was created not to determine fate, destiny, or defeat someone it was created to force the user to loop again over and over until they realize that no matter what they do or how they do it nothing will work and must accept the fact of Izanagi to have failed and give up the thought of using the forbidden jutsu. Once a person accepts that they shouldn't use Izanagi to live, become perfect, and change there destiny then Izanami will finally end.

    Kabuto is trying to become someone else focusing on gaining peoples powers losing his own reality and not knowing who he is which is changing is reality much like Izanagi it's focused on the brain since his lies, problems were so deep in his reality is that not of his own so Izanami is working against his own mind until he give up all the power he has taken, realizes that no matter what he does he will never be perfect. Again Izanami was designed to counter Izanagi's user who become arrogant and lie to themselves.
     
         
    Last edited by Wukong; 05-23-2012 at 05:44 PM.

  17. #17
    The Byakugan user of NB! Draegod's Avatar
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    Re: Plot Holes and Contradiction in "at 9..."

    Quote Originally Posted by Guilty as Sin View Post
    I wondered about that. Itachi doesn't have the eternal mangekyou, so it makes sense that he went blind. Does that mean that people like Sasuke can spam Izanagi and Izanami? Has that been suggested in the manga? Is that even fair?

    But now that I think about it, that is the only way that this could make sense. In other words, if Izanagi wasn't spammable and you could only use it a couple of times, then it makes you wonder how Izanami users could teach them a lesson before they used it. You can only really abuse Izanagi if you can use it indefinitely , so it possibly means, as you suggested, that the people abusing Izanagi were using it multiple times without consequence because they had the eternal mangekyou.

    But that raises some questions: That would have to mean that, given Itachi's statement that many people were using it, many people had the eternal mangekyou. That might not be a problem for some to accept, although I was under the impression that only a few could achieve that enormous feat.

    Another problem would be the fact that this just another reason to criticize Kishimoto for making the Uchiha too powerful. Infinite Izanagi and Izanami? This is getting out of hand.

    Anyway, that's a really good catch, + rep for it.
    thanx but i got my thoery form itachi.








    They killed and took one anothers eyes through out history. They were power hungry..
     
         

  18. #18
    Senior Member Q of the Sharingan's Avatar
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    Re: Plot Holes and Contradiction in "at 9..."

    Quote Originally Posted by Guilty as Sin View Post
    I wondered about that. Itachi doesn't have the eternal mangekyou, so it makes sense that he went blind. Does that mean that people like Sasuke can spam Izanagi and Izanami? Has that been suggested in the manga? Is that even fair?

    But now that I think about it, that is the only way that this could make sense. In other words, if Izanagi wasn't spammable and you could only use it a couple of times, then it makes you wonder how Izanami users could teach them a lesson before they used it. You can only really abuse Izanagi if you can use it indefinitely , so it possibly means, as you suggested, that the people abusing Izanagi were using it multiple times without consequence because they had the eternal mangekyou.

    But that raises some questions: That would have to mean that, given Itachi's statement that many people were using it, many people had the eternal mangekyou. That might not be a problem for some to accept, although I was under the impression that only a few could achieve that enormous feat.

    Another problem would be the fact that this just another reason to criticize Kishimoto for making the Uchiha too powerful. Infinite Izanagi and Izanami? This is getting out of hand.

    Anyway, that's a really good catch, + rep for it.
    Actually the EMS thing makes sense. Imagine if Madara constantly used Izanagi due to his EMS. That would be a good counter to Hash's instahealing and retain the eternal light concept of EMS. Izanami could be used on him to make him accept his fate, which would probably still be killing any Uchiha in his way. This would explain why not even the Uchiha supported him in his rally to oppose the Senju when the Leaf was formed. I think that Izanami was created before Madara obtained EMS but it would have been a good counter. Now this might be OP but remember that Izanagi uses a lot of chakra, so somebody couldn't actually use it too many times.
     
         

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    Re: Plot Holes and Contradiction in "at 9..."

    I think it's stupid that the tech was invented to teach a lesson yet it takes the light out of the users eye. Does not seem like a worthy trade at all.
     
         

  20. #20
    Senior Member Q of the Sharingan's Avatar
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    Re: Plot Holes and Contradiction in "at 9..."

    Quote Originally Posted by Draegod View Post
    thanx but i got my thoery form itachi.








    They killed and took one anothers eyes through out history. They were power hungry..
    That definitely explains why Uchiha took each other's eyes while supporting that the MS was only obtained by Madara and Izuna in their day.
     
         

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