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  1. #676
    Academy Student sisirnaruto's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Manga 591 Discussion and 592 Predictions

    dude about ur #1 question, its answerable... you see, *IF* Tobirama DID fight Madara, then Madara could've used like really strong Genjutsu...Eternal Mangekyo..remember? but anyway, i know Tobirama was REALLY strong, but its possible that he got sloppy and maybe fell for Madara's Genjutsu, making him reveal the hand signs? or he could have read his mind or something?
     
         

  2. #677
    Academy Student sisirnaruto's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Manga 591 Discussion and 592 Predictions

    But just HOW is it that Madara should have known the hand seals for release JUST BECAUSE the jutsu belonged to his rival's brother's? doesn't make much sense to me..
     
         

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    Re: Naruto Manga 591 Discussion and 592 Predictions

    i dont think it has to be that tobirama revealed sth out of sloppiness or whatever.
    madara knows the seals to undo the edo-contract.
    only means that he understands edo-tensei to a certain extent,
    but he must not have had tobiramas help to gain that knowledge...remember madara got sharingan to analyse a jutsu?

    in my world its enough if madara was near that active jutsu at least once, not more and not less. the rest has to be revealed...
     
         

  4. #679
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    Re: Naruto Manga 591 Discussion and 592 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Flame Alchemist View Post
    so as I understand that if the one who was summoned knows how to release the technique, along with the seals necessary, he can break out of the command.

    this is what I understood from the speech. I wish we had better translation.

    madara:
    there is a risk to ET. if you know the seals you can release ET's contract. this is really dangerous (for the user, in other words kabuto in this situation). (because the user, in other words kabuto, will have to face) an undying enemy with unlimited chakra.
    tell kabuto that he shouldn't use forbidden techniques carelessly.


    if what I understood is true, and that's the deal why didn't tobirama break the seal off when he was summoned by orochimaru? because he was completely turned into a mindless-puppet?
    Quote Originally Posted by tristan View Post
    nice question, plot hole once again...
    Madara in the edo tensei was not allowed to go against the user of Jutsu and so did all the ninja in the Edo tensei. That is because they had talisman placed in them by kabuto. When kabuto released the edo tensei, their will was returned. that was when Madara gained the advantage. the revived tsuchikage mention his will being returned when he mentioned that his consciousness is returning
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/589/12
    I don't see a plot hole in this. There is something that Naruto Manga Fans and Naruto Anime fans need to know. Kishi does not work alone when developing this story. He has advisors that look through his work
    Quote Originally Posted by jdilla View Post
    Naruto or Sasuke or the both of them will defeat Madara with some help from Gaara maybe for the sealing. He's not unbeatable like everyone says but he's the closest thing possible to it.
    I think kishi is trying to show us how strong Madara is and i think he is going to prove it by making him wiping all the 5 kages. You may disagree but thats just my thinking
    Quote Originally Posted by KnowledgeGod View Post
    No that's not what I was implying about the immortality technique. The caster of this technique only transfers his spirit/mind into the new host. The soul is not allowed to leave its original body. So when Orochimaru tried to take over Sasuke. Sasuke place Orochimaru into a Genjustu. So pretty much Orochimaru was trapped inside Sasuke mind until Sasuke was weaken enough for him to break free, during the fight with Itachi. Again the Immortality Technique is not a soul transferring tech, it's a spirit/mind transferring technique. Again the Soul and Spirit is not the samething. Itachi did trapped Orochimaru spirit/mind inside the totsuka sword but again that was Orochimaru spirit/mind that was trapped. Meaning his soul is still in the afterlife meaning if Kabuto wanted he could bring Orochimaru back by Edo Tensi...logic!
    It was explained by orochimaru that the soul/ spirit of the person disappears once he has taken over the body. If the soul is left then that must mean that orochimaru's old body is still alive. Which doesn't make sense. Also the use of word logic at every post you post is annoying
    Quote Originally Posted by Eisenpelz View Post
    i agree completely. mostly.
    ant the last thing with tsunade, fascinatin thought...
    i think of two plausible reasons there.
    could be a simple translation-error and she originally meant the one searching kabuto.
    or ur right, and that wuold even be more funny, coz the two individuals, who made the biggest and most silent sacrifices for their konoha outsmart each other in the end (itachi vs kabuto would even be more unnecessary than some people think it is now) awesome :-D
    a truly fitting last act in both of their lifes ;-)
    I thought just the same thing

    Quote Originally Posted by 9th Raikage View Post
    Why in the heck haven't the Kages used their summons. Katsuya would be useful to heal each kage while the larger version of herself helps to fight or at least hold off or distract Madara from focusing all of his attention on the Kages.

    Does anyone know if the other Kages have summons?
    I almost forgot about the summons. thank you for reminding me. I think they do all do have a summon

    Quote Originally Posted by suzano View Post
    it was yamato
    I forgot about yamato. Maybe they should use him to fight Madara cause after all he has full First Hokage DNA. This is just my thinking. it might not work but its worth a try.


    Quote Originally Posted by squigles View Post
    Actually, Tobirama invented Edo Tensei. Not sure why anyone would confuse Edo Tensei with the Death Reaper seal.
    The Maxwills guy mentioned that Tobirama invented the reaper death seal. and i was correcting him thats why i said what i had to say. Here is the evidence that shows what he said
    Quote Originally Posted by maxwills View Post
    Don't know if someone has said this but Tobirama never used Endo, he was the inventor of Death Seal that Minato used on 9 tails and Hiruzen used on 1st and 2nd and Orichimaru's arms.
    Quote Originally Posted by squigles View Post
    It has nothing to do with consciousness, and everything to do with the subjects will being bound to a contract seal. Many of those who summoned by Kabuto with Edo Tensei were fully conscious.
    Nahh if they were then they all should have gone against kabuto's will which they could not.And if they had full consciousness then the Edo Tensei would be useless
    Quote Originally Posted by squigles View Post
    Their souls were bound to the bodies Kabuto picked by a contract seal, and then their personalities and wills were controlled by those talismans. Again, none of this had anything to do with consciousness.
    Yes it did Kishi included the part where the tuschikage mentions his consciousness coming back. What ever kishi says in his story one will not change it. it is because in the, the story he is God. We can't make up what he says. Take a good look at this page and if you don't get it i ask if you can read it again or check other translations
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/589/12


    Quote Originally Posted by squigles View Post
    The reason why Tobirama couldn't do what Madara did, is because Orochimaru used a talisman that inhibited everything except for basic responses to orders by Oro. Kabuto even explains the way the control talismans work.
    and so did Kabuto to Madara Uchiha except he gave a little bit conscious but not all. His will to rebel was taken away until the release. Again i will explain When edo was performed by kabuto, kabuto took all the consciousness away from the raised bodies he gave out some but the consciousness to rebel was not given to them and thats why he had control of them. When he released the Edo tensei their full consciousness returned and thats how madara got the chance to break free from the edo tensei
    It was to my knowing that if you don't have full consciousness or no consciousness you have no way of controlling your body fully. Zombies don't have consciousness
    Quote Originally Posted by itzobi View Post
    to be honest i only really cared about the last page:shrug:, i know people were happy to see that dan got to tlk to tsunade but i dont really care about those two lol but, what i would really like to see is more naruto vs tobi more about tobi and who he really is and what sasuke is going to do now that his brother is gone.
    Me too. What a coincidence.

    PS; this is to anyone. I have seen people insulting others. If you are going to insult anybody(e.g calling people retarded), and be a troll on this thread regardless of what the other person's opinion is even if they wrong i suggest you don't do it. We need to have a hate free discussion
     
         

  5. #680
    Member YoungShinobi's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Manga 591 Discussion and 592 Predictions

    If madara stay's fighting the kages they will die... its simple
     
         

  6. #681
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    Re: Naruto Manga 591 Discussion and 592 Predictions

    he must have battled tobirama before to know the handseals
     
         

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    Re: Naruto Manga 591 Discussion and 592 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by YoungShinobi View Post
    he must have battled tobirama before to know the handseals
    not really, he just had to see tobirama using that jutsu and then observe it with sharingan.
    doesn't necessarily mean they fought each other...
    since they were at least some time kinda allys (remember senju&uchiha est. konoha?)

    and furthermore, that doesn't even mean, tobirama knew the seals to undo edo-tensei-contract as one of its puppets.
    my opinion:
    madara has only analyzed the jutsu in his ways, and thanks to sharingan he found a (probably unknown) weak spot and invented the seals to undo the contract by himself.
    just because u invented sth (tobirama), doesn't mean it can't be evolved further...
    best example is how orochimaru/kabuto messed around with edo-tensei.
     
         

  8. #683
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    Re: Naruto Manga 591 Discussion and 592 Predictions

    Family Tree Theory:

    Uzumaki Clan =Sage Of 6 Paths/Father

    Hyuuga Clan = Wife/Mother

    Uchiha and Senju Clan = Kids

    I posted this a while back just wanted to repost!
     
         

  9. #684
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    Re: Naruto Manga 591 Discussion and 592 Predictions

    Interesting to see immortality Madara and no longer Edo-madara.i now see that Kishi is really a good writer. No one ever predicted something like this. And that was another way to replenish Tsunade's chakra. I believe Tsunade has more secret and more forbiben jutsu that she will use against Immortality-madara.
     
         

  10. #685
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    Re: Naruto Manga 591 Discussion and 592 Predictions

    I think it is about time that Kurama explains a few things to Naruto.
    I'm sure he has some valuable information about the Sage of the six Paths, the Rinnegan and even Madara.
    The tailed beasts must be around for more than 100 years (Madara fought Hashirama 80 years ago from the mangas present day), if the myth is true since the advent of the ninja world. Why shouldn't he have accumulated massive knowledge about it?
    I wouldn't even be bothered with a bit of talk no jutsu from Kurama.
     
         

  11. #686
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    Re: Naruto Manga 591 Discussion and 592 Predictions

    it's good chapter but next chapter is better
     
         

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    Re: Naruto Manga 591 Discussion and 592 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by YoungShinobi View Post
    he must have battled tobirama before to know the handseals
    I really doubt that. 2nd hokage was popular during his time from those who are mentioning his name, we didnt see any 1st kage mention or anybody while he was with the first. kabuto lied to tobi or gave half a truth, there was a seal shown at the end of there conversation like I mentioned b4 that is probably what madara is talking about and also dont forget at one point after there agreement both sidee (senju & uchiha)came together after they settled there beef so it could have been something the uchiha helped developed. Even though hashirama was the first hokage but from what we have seen there always a penel leaders he could have been on there till he went rouge.
     
         
    Last edited by lion fang master; 07-03-2012 at 12:02 AM.

  13. #688
    Sage of NarutoBase a thousand years of death's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Manga 591 Discussion and 592 Predictions

    the kages are really in trouble now. someone is going to have to pull off some massive trump card in order to get madara to panic let alone finish him off.

    how are they going to deal with him?
     
         

  14. #689
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    Re: Naruto Manga 591 Discussion and 592 Predictions

    The Maxwills guy mentioned that Tobirama invented the reaper death seal. and i was correcting him thats why i said what i had to say. Here is the evidence that shows what he said
    Yeah I understand that, but I wanted to post the correct information anyway.

    Nahh if they were then they all should have gone against kabuto's will which they could not.And if they had full consciousness then the Edo Tensei would be useless
    The reason why they can't go against Kabuto is because their will is taken away. So even though a few of them wanted to do something other than fight for Kabuto (it even talks about this as the war plays out), they could not do so because Kabuto bound his will to the talismans which overrode theirs, forcing them to do what he wanted them to do.

    Yes it did Kishi included the part where the tuschikage mentions his consciousness coming back. What ever kishi says in his story one will not change it. it is because in the, the story he is God. We can't make up what he says. Take a good look at this page and if you don't get it i ask if you can read it again or check other translations
    Yeah, which could be a translation error, they've been known to happen. Even if it really did say 'consciousness' it could still be an error on Kishi's part, those have happened too. The point I'm trying to make is that there is a fundamental difference between 'consciousness' and 'will.' All of the people Kabuto summoned with Edo Tensei were fully aware of their actions and what was going on around them.

    Yet you even said yourself that their wills were bound by Kabuto.

    1. Will/wil - Verb: Intend, desire, or wish (something) to happen: "he was doing what the saint willed".

    2. con·scious·ness - Noun: The state of being awake and aware of one's surroundings.
    The awareness or perception of something by a person.

    So can you see how some of the people summoned by Edo Tensei were conscious, but still bound by Kabuto's will? It's either a mistranslation or a grammatical error.

    It was explained by orochimaru that the soul/ spirit of the person disappears once he has taken over the body. If the soul is left then that must mean that orochimaru's old body is still alive. Which doesn't make sense. Also the use of word logic at every post you post is annoying
    Just to drive this point home one final time, let's assume that Knowledge God is correct, that the soul, spirit, and mind were all separate things. Now, let's say that Orochimaru went to switch bodies with someone. What happens if he takes his spirit to the new body, but leaves his mind and his soul behind?

    There would literally be zero point to that technique because if the old body was dying (which is why he would switch to begin with) then his soul and mind would die too. Having his spirit in a new body would do nothing without the mind and soul (if they were separate things).

    Instead, the jutsu works by switching EVERYTHING to the new body, overriding all existing things. This way the new body becomes the same for the user as the old body was. This is why the technical points are irrelevant, even if you could explain the difference between a mind, a soul, and a spirit.

    I really doubt that. 2nd hokage was popular during his time from those who are mentioning his name, we see any 1st kage mention or while he was with the first. kabuto lied to tobi or gave half a truth, there a seal shown at the end of there conversation like I mentioned b4 that is probably what madara is talking about and also forget at one point after there agreement both allied after they settled there beef so it could have something the uchiha helped developed. Even though hashirama was the first hokage from wha t we have seen there is a penel he could have been on there till he went rouge.
    Edo Madara never met Tobi after he was summoned by Kabuto, so he would have no knowledge of Kabuto showing Tobi how to release Edo Tensei. In addition, you're forgetting that one of the most basic functions of the Sharingan is to analyze and copy how techniques work. Itachi himself trapped Kabuto in a genjutsu and forced him to show Itachi the hand signs to release Edo Tensei.

    Madara, at any time during his life, could have learned everything there is to know about Edo Tensei, either through battle, from intel by a 3rd party, or through the corpse of Tobirama. It's not a plot hole for Madara to have this knowledge, and just because it's not explicitly explained at this point in time, doesn't mean it never will be.
     
         

  15. #690
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    Re: Naruto Manga 591 Discussion and 592 Predictions

    Dan + Tsunade = Itachi + Sasuke äh die 2 szenen hintereinander is dann doch irgendwie langweilig die sehn total gleich aus -.-
     
         

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    Re: Naruto Manga 591 Discussion and 592 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by squigles View Post
    Yeah I understand that, but I wanted to post the correct information anyway.



    The reason why they can't go against Kabuto is because their will is taken away. So even though a few of them wanted to do something other than fight for Kabuto (it even talks about this as the war plays out), they could not do so because Kabuto bound his will to the talismans which overrode theirs, forcing them to do what he wanted them to do.



    Yeah, which could be a translation error, they've been known to happen. Even if it really did say 'consciousness' it could still be an error on Kishi's part, those have happened too. The point I'm trying to make is that there is a fundamental difference between 'consciousness' and 'will.' All of the people Kabuto summoned with Edo Tensei were fully aware of their actions and what was going on around them.

    Yet you even said yourself that their wills were bound by Kabuto.

    1. Will/wil - Verb: Intend, desire, or wish (something) to happen: "he was doing what the saint willed".

    2. con·scious·ness - Noun: The state of being awake and aware of one's surroundings.
    The awareness or perception of something by a person.

    So can you see how some of the people summoned by Edo Tensei were conscious, but still bound by Kabuto's will? It's either a mistranslation or a grammatical error.



    Just to drive this point home one final time, let's assume that Knowledge God is correct, that the soul, spirit, and mind were all separate things. Now, let's say that Orochimaru went to switch bodies with someone. What happens if he takes his spirit to the new body, but leaves his mind and his soul behind?

    There would literally be zero point to that technique because if the old body was dying (which is why he would switch to begin with) then his soul and mind would die too. Having his spirit in a new body would do nothing without the mind and soul (if they were separate things).

    Instead, the jutsu works by switching EVERYTHING to the new body, overriding all existing things. This way the new body becomes the same for the user as the old body was. This is why the technical points are irrelevant, even if you could explain the difference between a mind, a soul, and a spirit.



    Edo Madara never met Tobi after he was summoned by Kabuto, so he would have no knowledge of Kabuto showing Tobi how to release Edo Tensei. In addition, you're forgetting that one of the most basic functions of the Sharingan is to analyze and copy how techniques work. Itachi himself trapped Kabuto in a genjutsu and forced him to show Itachi the hand signs to release Edo Tensei.

    Madara, at any time during his life, could have learned everything there is to know about Edo Tensei, either through battle, from intel by a 3rd party, or through the corpse of Tobirama. It's not a plot hole for Madara to have this knowledge, and just because it's not explicitly explained at this point in time, doesn't mean it never will be.
    Don't miss quote my work! I never said the soul, mind, and spirit is seperated like you stated. I said the soul and spirit/mind are into two parts. Orochimaru original body is not alive unless it's in a lab on life support. Reason being is he transferred his spirit/mind into the new hosts body. What I'm saying is that Orochimaru original body is brain dead, if you don't have the mind to think, that means you can't eat or breathe. Another thing is Orochimaru original body wasn't dying he just was afraid of getting old, he feared death in that fashion because he was eager to learn everything Justus and etc. I think the only reason Orochimaru was sick is because the hosts wasn't compatible with the stress and expirements he was putting them through. I'm not sure if I'm right about my theories it's just my perception and understanding of the story. I'm not a Orochimaru fan but I'm positively confident that he was way smarter than Kabuto. Orochimaru was able to leave Akatsuki and survive that's says alot knowing the talent of shinobi's they had. Logic!
     
         
    Last edited by KnowledgeGod; 07-02-2012 at 03:22 PM. Reason: Mispelled

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    Re: Naruto Manga 591 Discussion and 592 Predictions

    i'm giving it a one...but only cause MAdara is a D***** bag for canceling out the Edo Tensei on himself...freikin loser...otherwise it was a good chap, but Madara seriously needs to d-i-e DIE!!!
     
         

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    Re: Naruto Manga 591 Discussion and 592 Predictions

    QUICK QUESTION.....don't you find it weird that ONLY half of the 9 tails' fox chakra was sealed in Naruto and the other half was sealed in Minato? I mean Kishi has come up with all sorts of B/S jutsus and theories to keep Madara in the game, so if there's a hole in using the edo tensei jutsu like Madara just showed us, would it be a surprise to find there's also a hole in using the Death Reaper seal jutsu? In which it would allow all 4 hokages that are sealed to come back and protect their HOME one last time?
     
         

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    Re: Naruto Manga 591 Discussion and 592 Predictions

    I hope Naruto enter Sage mode + Kurama to help the KAGES defeat Madara
     
         

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    Re: Naruto Manga 591 Discussion and 592 Predictions

    IM not a madara fanboy so here it goes. Madaera knows ET because he is the lord of Uchiha who founded the hidden leaf WITH the Senju. With such a aresenal the TWO CLANS WORKED TOGETHER BOTH SENJU AND UCHIHA TO SECURE THE BORDERS with would become the LAND IF FIRE. UNITY AT SOME POINT EXISTED 1.THE TRUCE it could have lasted months or years so in time collaboration would occur. EX TOKA SENJU who was world renown as a master practitioner of Genjutsu even by uchiha wouldn't you want your comrades to be as well suited for defending a home village based on stability and peace. Madara could have even agreed with tobirama in labeling a kinjutsu due to him viewing of the meteor saying it was self sacrifice jutsu killing all on the field dead just chimming in first post
     
         

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    Re: Naruto Manga 591 Discussion and 592 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by KnowledgeGod View Post
    Don't miss quote my work! I never said the soul, mind, and spirit is seperated like you stated. I said the soul and spirit/mind are into two parts. Orochimaru original body is not alive unless it's in a lab on life support. Reason being is he transferred his spirit/mind into the new hosts body. What I'm saying is that Orochimaru original body is brain dead, if you don't have the mind to think, that means you can't eat or breathe. Another thing is Orochimaru original body wasn't dying he just was afraid of getting old, he feared death in that fashion because he was eager to learn everything Justus and etc. I think the only reason Orochimaru was sick is because the hosts wasn't compatible with the stress and expirements he was putting them through. I'm not sure if I'm right about my theories it's just my perception and understanding of the story. I'm not a Orochimaru fan but I'm positively confident that he was way smarter than Kabuto. Orochimaru was able to leave Akatsuki and survive that's says alot knowing the talent of shinobi's they had. Logic!
    i think i do not disagree this time ;-)
    but your perception puts up one big question in my mind about orochimarus reincarnation jutsu.
    is it really orochimaru after switching bodies or is it just a copy?

    ok it was not really your perception, its more the jutsu itself that lets me put up this question....anyways...the answer seems more like an opinion, hard to find hard facts for this.
     
         
    Last edited by Eisenpelz; 07-02-2012 at 10:17 PM.

  22. #697
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    Re: Naruto Manga 591 Discussion and 592 Predictions

    Oh my God! We really need Goku now..
     
         

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    Re: Naruto Manga 591 Discussion and 592 Predictions

    Don't miss quote my work! I never said the soul, mind, and spirit is seperated like you stated. I said the soul and spirit/mind are into two parts.
    What's the difference? Two parts = two different things. The fact of the matter is that even if you were right, IT DOESN'T MATTER. Orochimaru would need a mind, soul, or spirit in order to be OROCHIMARU.

    Derp.

    Your original argument was that because they are all separate things, that Orochimaru could still be brought back by Kabuto because not all of those things were sealed....
     
         

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    Re: Naruto Manga 591 Discussion and 592 Predictions

    This as probably as far-fetched as you could get, but I see Sauske having a change of heart and defeating Madara...
     
         

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    Re: Naruto Manga 591 Discussion and 592 Predictions

    Madara still here yes! I kne it wasn't the last of him yes yes yes yes
    to Tsunade fanboys/girls Dan may have saved here once but sorry unfortunately it's time for her to go I don't see her surviving this one especially since Madara survives"...btw I don't hate Tsunade before I get blasted I just don't see her surviving
     
         

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