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  1. #201
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    Re: Proof that Second Mizukage > Second Hokage (Actual Explanation Inside)

    Quote Originally Posted by Great Sage of Uchiha View Post
    Dude this was a genius but together fight cause the Second hokage was known as one of the top strongest ninja and to put him up against the Second Mizukage, would mean that he would need to change up his attack plan and plan out his jutsus very carefully lol. So + rep for that.
    I Just think most people just see Hokage and assume that he would automatically win or something, Just cause he was hokage doesn't make him the strongest ninja around.
    Yeah i agree i think he was the smartest Kage of all time, he was able to defy life and death, he could warp the two major sovereigns of the universe - space and time around his very presence.

    However Muu was a genius in his own respect, making the first Kekkei Tota not to mention very analytical and very good at working things out with very little prior knowledge. So the Second Mizukage being able to beat a genius like that must of been pretty smart himself.
     
         

  2. #202
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    Re: Proof that Second Mizukage > Second Hokage (Actual Explanation Inside)

    Very nice thread, imo its just a bad match up for 2nd Hokage, him being a water Ninjutsu user certainly is his main strength, however its his main disadvantage and is rendered useless in this specific fight so 2nd Mizukage takes this easily,
    Anyhooo, tides might change IF we take Edo Tensei into acount.
     
         

  3. #203
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    Re: Proof that Second Mizukage > Second Hokage (Actual Explanation Inside)

    like its been said we now practically nothing about them, even the extent of their skil and power we have heard that the senju clan are the masters of all types of jutsu how do we know that the 2nd hokage did not have a jutsu he never used or how good he in when it comes down to battle strategy we can ot rule out anything at this point anythig can happen the hokage can win or lose... lets take into consederation:the enviroment, the amout of chakra they have, their skill level, their knowladge of jutsu.. the are many thing that can make you win agains an opponent with a greate defence against your signature moves.. but il have to go with the hokage becouse of hin being a senju
     
         
    Last edited by oonoki; 07-11-2012 at 12:26 AM.

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    Re: Proof that Second Mizukage > Second Hokage (Actual Explanation Inside)

    For now, Mizukage only on the grounds that we know very little about Tobirama.
     
         

  5. #205
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    Re: Proof that Second Mizukage > Second Hokage (Actual Explanation Inside)

    Ok, you bring up some good points... the fact that the Mizukage can use his ability to absorb water ninjutsu is a major factor. So that was a good observation. Then great counter with Tobirama having a chance with the whole enviornment disadvantage for the mizukage. So yeah, I somewhat agree with you, but as of the moment, I'd like to see Tobirama in action, ACTION, just so I can be sure of the peak of his power... so great discussion man...+rep.

    On a more important note: Neither one can take me on. By hype and feats, I am clearly far superior.
     
         

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    Re: Proof that Second Mizukage > Second Hokage (Actual Explanation Inside)

    Quote Originally Posted by DeViliShChild View Post
    Bringer of Darkness and thunder sword were both in the anime. Not in the manga, (which is all that counts in discussions)
    In the manga the 1st hokage used the darkness technique not the 2nd.
    As for sword, it was just a filler in anime. And as stated b4 anime doesnt count.
    And i doubt the Second would use a technique he himself made forbidden
    No that is a false statement saying that ONLY manga counts in discussions.. why?? because in manga the writer cannot add extra stuff why? because its damn pages..

    Anime allows the writer to go beyond the pages..

    Anything he has in the anime is also included.. When you say anime doesn't count that is basically killing off the Naruto Franchise. Unless the Kishimoto himself says Anime doesn't count , the anime will always count.

    And just because its forbidden does not mean you can't use it in a pinch.. Hes already used it enough that other Kages knew about it.
     
         

  7. #207
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    Re: Proof that Second Mizukage > Second Hokage (Actual Explanation Inside)

    meh i still reckon tobiramara could beat him
     
         

  8. #208
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    Re: Proof that Second Mizukage > Second Hokage (Actual Explanation Inside)

    Really awesome thread with good points. As it stands now 2nd Mizukage would fair nicely against Tobirama, but the thing is we don't know too much about him. Only that he's a very powerful water style user, reanimation jutsu, and space-time ninjutsu. And like a lot of people said the terrain accounts to the outcome at all. If its near a large body of water then I could agree that the 2nd Mizukage could take it or atleast come close, but if its in like a desserty area then Tobirama would stand a better chance because he has other things he can use besides Suiton. But like I (and others) have said, we don't know much about Tobirama's abilities in depth enough to actually have a definite answer. Awesome thread though
     
         

  9. #209
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    Re: Proof that Second Mizukage > Second Hokage (Actual Explanation Inside)

    Quote Originally Posted by Negative Knight View Post
    Second Mizukage vs Second Hokage
    As with my last Thread this is a thread exploring a largely underrated/not talked about Kage of History and pitting him against a very well known Kage to show how strong this unknown Kage really is.

    This is a thread showing why the Second Mizukage can arguably stronger than the Second Hokage. However this thread doesn't account for Edo Tensei

    The Second Mizukage has shown a great feat of beating Muu (The 2nd Tschuikage) at the cost of his own life, so read the thread before claiming Tobirama is the best ever.




    Why the Second Mizukage is stronger than the Second Hokage?
    The main way the Second Mizukage can combine all of these things into an overall advantage is through these things:

    1) Absorbing all of the Second Hokage's Very High Magnitude Water Techniques
    The Second Mizukage can absorb all of the Second Hokage's water ninjutsu to become progressively stronger and larger in direct proportion into the amount of water he absorbs. Also because of the high magntiude nature of the Second Hokage's techniques he'll be at a very big disadvantage the larger the Jutsu he uses on the Second Mizukage. This is much like a Kisame and chakra relationship only its specific to a type of element.

    2) Immune to the Second Hokage's High Prowess Taijutsu

    This is a obvious point which basically means the Second Hokage's very high taijutsu skills become useless in the face of the Second Mizukage because of the intangible nature of water meaning he can not be hit by the Second Hokage with either his ninjutsu or taijutsu.

    3) Pseudo combination of Minato and Tobi's Space Time Ninjutsu

    The Second Mizukage can be like i said earlier anywhere and everywhere all at once if he leads or makes the battle go in the direction of a nearby water source, combined with his intangibility when in liquid state it becomes a form of S/T Ninjutsu which encompasses both Minato's Speed (much faster as it is instanteous, less than 0 seconds in length) and Tobi's intangibility (inability to be harmed in liquid state apart from certain ninjutsu).

    4) Oil Based Techniques and the Thunder sword was a filler
    The thunder sword wasn't in the manga and was just a filler episode to make a story whch wasn't really there. Also the main point is highlighted by Gyatasuku that the 2nd Mizukage's oil based techniques is a natural insulator so this would allow the Mizukage to counter act the Second Hokage's filler Thunder sword even if it is used as a argument on why Tobirama would win.

    The Second Mizukage's Elemental Advantage with Hozuki Nature Transformation


    Strengthened by Water techniques as they increase the overall volume of the user of the technique.

    Immunity to Wind Techniques as they only work if of a massive magnitude against a increased volume Hozuki user.

    Immunity to Earth Techniques as they are solid and usually require the user to hit the opponent directly. Earth traps will also fail as the user can simply seep out of the technique.

    Immunity to most fire techniques as the Water > Fire nature of things, but there are exceptions for certain fire techniques and fire release users.

    Weakness against very strong fire techniques as the intensity means the user evaporates the user or simply overwhelms the water based technique.

    Severe Weakness against lightning as the whole user becomes a liquid (impure water) means that the Di-Charged nature of water (containing both positive and negative minerals) means that it conducts electricity so dangerous and efficiently means the user is electrocuted over and over as they are a complete circuit.


    If you check the above spoiler tag you will see the Tobirama's main and only chakra nature (the one he specializes in) will backfire in direct proportion to how strong his water technique is, in the relationship the higher the magnitude of the water technique, the greater the disadvantage Tobirama puts himself in.

    The Second Mizukage's oil-based clone technique can act as a constant distraction and disadvanatage to Tobirama as not only will he have to fight the Second Mizukage but constantly avoid the clone to prevent himself being caught in the destructive blast. Also the infinite nature of the the technique (reversible reaction which acts independently) means that it would act as a constant obstacle to the Second Hokage through the fight. Theoretically it could be seen as a 2 vs 1 advantage.

    Alternative Argument on why the Second Hokage could win



    Other Points to consider:

    This thread hasn't even considered the dangerous effects of the Second Mizukage's ultimate Mirage Genjutsu which he could use in conjunction with the clone technique to attack and defend without lifting a finger (once the preparations are set). Also the explosion won't harm the clam because the genjutsu casts a fake version of both the Second Mizukage and the Clam which are hard to tell from the original.

    The Second Hokage cannot use Taijutsu in the battle because of how useless it becomes in the face of the Second Mizukage in liquid form and he cannot use water ninjutsu (his main offensive) which strengthens the mizukage. Also his S/T ninjutsu is countered by the ability of attaining a combination of Minato's and Tobi's S/T Jutsus combined in a water filled area.



    Finally, this thread has shown simply with his Nature Transformation the Second Mizukage has created a ultimate defense against the Hokage's Main offensive methods, a greater version of S/T Ninjutsu than both Minato and Tobi when fighting in or near a water source.




    What do you guys think who would win, the Second Hokage or the Second Mizukage?

    Also i need someone to make a Bio for the Second Hokage to add to this thread, please notify me if you will

    Proof that the Third Kazekage > The Third Raikage - http://www.narutobase.net/forums/sho...d.php?t=208118

    Alright so ibseenyou give logical arguments, but we barely know anything about Tobirama. Still, I think Tobirama would win this. I mean he said (said not sure) he was the best user of the water chakra nature in the manga. He has Edo tensei, and has the strength of the Senju body. And if he can manipulate water as well as the sources I've read said, he could manipulate the hozuki clan's firm of hydrofication technique. ( not sure about this but still consider it) and plus, Tobirama weld the Sword of the Thundergod which had electricity running through it. And to counter the genjutsu he could sense the Mizukage by touching the earth with his finger. And he also has an A-rank genjutsu in the bringer of darkness which makes Tobirama even more BA.
    But thank you for taking me into consideration for giving my opinion on your thread. :D
     
         

  10. #210
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    Re: Proof that Second Mizukage > Second Hokage (Actual Explanation Inside)

    Quote Originally Posted by Leoj of the Teinken View Post
    Alright so ibseenyou give logical arguments, but we barely know anything about Tobirama. Still, I think Tobirama would win this. I mean he said (said not sure) he was the best user of the water chakra nature in the manga. He has Edo tensei, and has the strength of the Senju body. And if he can manipulate water as well as the sources I've read said, he could manipulate the hozuki clan's firm of hydrofication technique. ( not sure about this but still consider it) and plus, Tobirama weld the Sword of the Thundergod which had electricity running through it. And to counter the genjutsu he could sense the Mizukage by touching the earth with his finger. And he also has an A-rank genjutsu in the bringer of darkness which makes Tobirama even more BA.
    But thank you for taking me into consideration for giving my opinion on your thread. :D
    controlling the Mizukage in water state? you remind me of myself on the Third Kazekage thread but i agree that's certainly possible as he comes 100% water. However the Mizukage was pretty intelligent (able to beat Muu, the genius) so he would probably realize this and only turn into water above a water source or when Tobirama uses his high scale water ninjutsu.

    The sword of the thundergod was a filler and most likely non cannon meaning it won't actually be in possession of the Second Hokage.

    I agree with him escaping the Second Mizukage's Genjutsu because of his sensory skills

    The Second Mizukage could use a Infinite Exploding Clone + The Hydrification Technique as a final resort. First the Second Mizukage can use his Exploding Clone to distract the Hokage momentarily, then fuse with a immense body of water. This would compensate for his lack of strength while the clone is active as he could get rid of his weakened state but making a giant water body like Suigetsu did in the Killer Bee fight.

    While he is distracting the Second Hokage with the Infinite Exploding clone that follows him around, he could damage him heavily by bombarding him with heavy bodies of water while the Clone keeps on tracking him.

    As a last resort if the Second Hokage starts gaining the advantage because of the Mizukage's weakeaned state, he could merge with a very large water source and stay undercover while the Clone does damage to the overall terrain.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingHashirama View Post
    No that is a false statement saying that ONLY manga counts in discussions.. why?? because in manga the writer cannot add extra stuff why? because its damn pages..

    Anime allows the writer to go beyond the pages..

    Anything he has in the anime is also included.. When you say anime doesn't count that is basically killing off the Naruto Franchise. Unless the Kishimoto himself says Anime doesn't count , the anime will always count.

    And just because its forbidden does not mean you can't use it in a pinch.. Hes already used it enough that other Kages knew about it.
    True King Hashirama but the anime they tend to add the episodes to give a further head start to the anime, to make sure the end of a arc passes without rushing into a new one and etc. I think Kishi allows fillers as long as they don't mess with the story and it gives the anime watches time between major arcs e.g. the Pain Invasion arc. meaning the Thunder Sword is most likely not real but i agree its certainly a possibility.

    Also i agree he's the smartest Kage so he probably would come prepared with Edo Tensei in case of an all out battle but i doubt he would have the DNA of really strong ninja.
     
         

  11. #211
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    Re: Proof that Second Mizukage > Second Hokage (Actual Explanation Inside)

    Tobirama is such a beast
    god forbid he used impureresurection
     
         

  12. #212
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    Re: Proof that Second Mizukage > Second Hokage (Actual Explanation Inside)

    Ok lets be honest Kishi havent shown much from Tobirama. But still due to hype tobirama wins.
     
         

  13. #213
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    Re: Proof that Second Mizukage > Second Hokage (Actual Explanation Inside)

    Quote Originally Posted by NaruGoku View Post
    I think you're overestimating the value of "absorbing" water... and i also don't think water would make a difference with the genjutsu. the whole point of the Clam is to hide the real clam and real mizukage, but the Hokage would be able to sense the real ones. if anything, water would only help with that. and Joki boy isn't very powerful and plus Mizukage can't fight while it's out--he has to hide because his real body is very weak while its out. and water or not, Mizukage has no counter to Edo Tensei at all, and we don't know the extent of Hokages Space/Time jutsu but Edo Tensei S/T could pretty much beat anyone.
    again, the first thing i said was that i agree Mizukage could win, i just think Hokage would win more often.
    muu was also a sensor ninja as well wasnt he?,and there were multiple sensory ninjas as well who cudnt find him when the clam genjutsu was out, gaara whose sensory skills come second only to current naruto cudnt find him as well but found the clam instead and then found the mizukage immediately after the clam was destroyed,tobirama is fighting him alone so he will have to deal with the clam and the mizukage. muu could use dust release but cud do nothin about joki boy all his life until he died.tobiarama did not perfect edo tensei nor did he fully complete it,oro did that and kabuto truly perfected it. Water jutsus are near useless against the mizukage, and if the mizulage was truly very weak when using his infinite explosion clone tech. then why didnt muu just fly up high and nuke him?.tobirama has from what we know,great suiton,teleportation jutsu and edo tensei which he abandoned. He needs to trap joki boy like gaara did or something like that but from what we know from him he has no jutsu for that. So yea i agree with knight he looses to the mizukage. And btw tanks for the invite
     
         

  14. #214
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    Re: Proof that Second Mizukage > Second Hokage (Actual Explanation Inside)

    i really can't find a good reason to try put the 2nd mizukage at an disadvantage.
    The only thing i can think of is Edo tensei. the hokage could bring back to life a lightning style user but other than that its mizukages...

    in dry land might be hokages if hokage realises that his water style would give mizukage an advantage...

    its really hard to debate when this is an all ready decided in mizukages favour...
     
         

  15. #215
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    Re: Proof that Second Mizukage > Second Hokage (Actual Explanation Inside)

    I agree with you because even though Tobirama is a kage level shinobi, he uses only water to be presumed, and if second mizukage can take away that water........shit will get real and tobirama wont use edo tensei just to beat one person so its ggs
     
         

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    Re: Proof that Second Mizukage > Second Hokage (Actual Explanation Inside)

    I agree +rep Thunder sword is filler and Negative Knight already said he does not account Edo Tensei and we don't how good Tobirama is in S/T ninjutsu so for now the Mizukage beats him.
     
         

  17. #217
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    Re: Proof that Second Mizukage > Second Hokage (Actual Explanation Inside)

    dont the 2nd hokage have a lighting sword or something like that?
     
         

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    Re: Proof that Second Mizukage > Second Hokage (Actual Explanation Inside)

    You have convinced me the the 2nd mizukage can destroy the 2nd hokage with ease. There are just to many advantages the 2nd mizukage has over the hokage.
     
         

  19. #219
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    Re: Proof that Second Mizukage > Second Hokage (Actual Explanation Inside)

    a water master vs a water master whom can turn into water..... im pretty sure its similar principle to jinbei vs someone like kizaru with a liquid/gas/energy form , only instead of light it is water that is used..... tobirama has no way of winning , even with edo
     
         

  20. #220
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    Re: Proof that Second Mizukage > Second Hokage (Actual Explanation Inside)

    Quote Originally Posted by Frikid View Post
    hey i just read on naruto wiki, they don't transform into water in hydrificatio n technique,
    i said earlier also, i didn't knew much about 2nd mizukage, so i read naruto wiki and then i realised , that teleport thingy is not possible, because he don't transform into water, but a different liquid.

    also it is impossible to resolidify for him if his liquid molecules get scattered..




    EDIT :

    And to reply on quote,

    In Tobirama's time, it was all about senju vs uchiha and he had fought many uchiha battle ,with his bro hashi.
    we all know that.
    And we also know uchiha's are well known for their genjutsu , so tobirama must have a counter for the genjutsus, or he wouldn't have survived any uchiha battle.

    And 2nd mizukage haven't shown any sensory abilities (as far as my knowledge)
    so water clones can fool him.
    I haven't received any counter to this yet
     
         

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