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  1. #1
    Member shk1020's Avatar
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    Madara, Hashirama, & Kyuubi

    IM SORRY IN ADVANCE IF THIS TURNS INTO A TOBI THREAD BUT I FELT THIS IS IMPORTANT TO DISCUSS. If you hate it for not being in the tobi sticky, you may want to skip this thread or even neg rep me.

    Also, im sorry if the information is clustered. I had this thing in my mind for a couple days and I tried to type a lot of it quickly while finding manga pages before I lose it. If it becomes confusing, please read the last paragraph, which might make more sense (with less words).


    So, everything started (a little over) 80 years ago, but its unclear if Madara and Hashirama fought 80 yrs ago exactly.
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/398/15

    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/398/17
    But maybe Madara (the real one) was born around 80 years ago. There is nothing to discuss here, just felt like bringing it up.

    Lets continue...



    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/399/10
    First, can we agree that in the page above, Madara is controlling the kyuubi? The REAL MADARA uses the Kyuubi against the first hokage (Hashirama) - close to the beginning of Konoha. It doesnt show how the kyuubi was controlled, but we can assume it was Madara's sharingan. From this, the kyuubi has a sense of Madara's chakra, which also leads to the kyuubi not liking Madara.


    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/500/5
    From the above page, I can conclude that Madara "brought" the Kyuubi to fight against Konoha/Hashirama and Hashirama "gained" control of it from Madara.



    Next, we know from Kushina's story that TOBI ("the masked guy") controlled the Kyuubi and attacked Konoha 16 years ago from present. Naruto tells Kakashi and others here:
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/455/14


    What I dont get is that this shows the Kyuubi being controlled 2 TIMES by a sharingan user. First was Madara in the fight against Hashirama, the second was from Tobi - 16 yrs ago. However, what really concerns me here is that the Kyuubi never distinguishes between these two incidents. The Kyuubi states he was controlled by Madara, but was the Kyuubi referring to the first incident of Madara or the second of Tobi? And if it doesnt matter, does that mean that both times the Kyuubi was controlled by the SAME chakra (that is madara's chakra)?


    REMEMBER THIS...even the Kyuubi thinks that Madara is the one who controlled him "back then". The Kyuubi refers to being controlled by Madara, but never distinguishes between the two incidents.


    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/501/8
    We see the Tobi (from 16 yrs ago) controlling the Kyuubi. The Kyuubi recognizes Tobi (says "YOU") because of the either the sharingan or the chakra of Madara. Either way, it points to Madara and Tobi having a close relationship. Could it mean Tobi and Madara are the same person (with the same chakra or sharingan as the previous two times)? Obviously the sharingan isnt the same because Madara had that EMS vs Tobi just having MS (well its obito's we know that).


    http://www.mangapark.com/manga/Naruto/c561/11
    http://www.mangapark.com/manga/Naruto/c561/13
    Kyuubi recognizes Madara's chakra and then helps Naruto.


    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/568/6
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/568/7
    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/570/10
    Again, why doesnt the Kyuubi distinguish between Madara and Tobi? The Eight-tails and Naruto even mention the other battlefield where Kyuubi helped Naruto, but still nothing. I know at that instant they were fighting the beasts, but still...



    I dont want to speculate on Tobi's identity all that much. However, I think the key for us is looking through the Kyuubi's eyes and figuring out something (or just wait as many of you might say for 2 more days).


    What am I saying? The kyuubi is the only one (from the good side) who was actually alive when Madara and Hashirama fought as well as the attack from 16 years ago. When Naruto starts fighting the Edo-Madara, the Kyuubi senses Madara's chakra and helps Naruto with chakra to battle him due to his obvious dislike. Also the Kyuubi recognizes Tobi's eye (or chakra) from 16 years ago as Madara's by saying "YOU" when Tobi was releasing him from Kushina. So, is the Kyuubi not saying anything about Madara or Tobi to Naruto because the Kyuubi believes they both have the same chakra (or are even the same person)?
     
         
    Last edited by shk1020; 08-27-2012 at 05:32 AM. Reason: grammar mistakes

  2. #2
    Tobirama/Madara/Hashi fan Hipster Madara's Avatar
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    Re: Madara, Hashirama, & Kyuubi

    The first 2 paragraphs make no sense.
    They fought as newborn babies? lolz
     
         

  3. #3
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    Re: Madara, Hashirama, & Kyuubi

    I don't see where going with these ..
     
         

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    Re: Madara, Hashirama, & Kyuubi

    Tl;dr
     
         

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    I Rep Good Humor leeko's Avatar
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    Re: Madara, Hashirama, & Kyuubi

    simple when madara was controlling him he hated it more than when tobi controlled him it was for a small period of time ... imo your over thinking it .... he compares madara to sasuke to compliment sasukes power as for the "you" it will probably be revealed that madara brought kurama around tobi when they formed this big scheme of theres
     
         

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    Re: Madara, Hashirama, & Kyuubi

    i get you and never thought about it really. i guess, like you say, wait 2 more days. lol +rep though.
     
         

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    Re: Madara, Hashirama, & Kyuubi

    + Rep for your effort. Don't even bother listening to these logical wannabes...
     
         

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    Re: Madara, Hashirama, & Kyuubi

    Quote Originally Posted by Father of Life View Post
    Tl;dr
    read the last paragraph...thats probably not too long for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by leeko View Post
    simple when madara was controlling him he hated it more than when tobi controlled him it was for a small period of time ... imo your over thinking it .... he compares madara to sasuke to compliment sasukes power as for the "you" it will probably be revealed that madara brought kurama around tobi when they formed this big scheme of theres
    thats possibly true. I didnt think of that. I thought that "you" wouldve been madara for sure.
     
         

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    Re: Madara, Hashirama, & Kyuubi

    Quote Originally Posted by shk1020 View Post
    read the last paragraph...thats probably not too long for you.



    thats possibly true. I didnt think of that. I thought that "you" wouldve been madara for sure.
    This is for you btw...

    Naruto >>>>>> One Piece.
     
         

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    Re: Madara, Hashirama, & Kyuubi

    Quote Originally Posted by SAGA View Post
    This is for you btw...

    Naruto >>>>>> One Piece.
    we should make that a poll on a NEUTRAL website and see who likes which manga/show more.
     
         

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    Re: Madara, Hashirama, & Kyuubi

    anyone else have thoughts on this?
     
         

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    Re: Madara, Hashirama, & Kyuubi

    tobi is izuna madara and izuna would have similar charkra as they are brothers..

    and how do we no the nine tails knows tobi is madara he probly just asumed that coz madaras the only 1 ever to controll him!!!
     
         

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    Re: Madara, Hashirama, & Kyuubi

    I'd have to agree with Jahmin... Although we've never seen a situation where someone is assumed to be the same person just because of similar chakra, other than Kakashi mistaking Naruto for Minato.
     
         

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    Re: Madara, Hashirama, & Kyuubi

    ur misinformed,


    madara during the tobi leaf invasion didnt say who it was. the fox only said "it you".

    So we dont know what the fox meant by it yet.
     
         

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    Re: Madara, Hashirama, & Kyuubi

    Quote Originally Posted by psukkar View Post
    ur misinformed,


    madara during the tobi leaf invasion didnt say who it was. the fox only said "it you".

    So we dont know what the fox meant by it yet.
    that is kind of what i am getting at. if the kyuubi knows that tobi is not madara, then why not state it from the start? obviously its for the plot, but its something to look into.

    as the other leeko said earlier, that "you" doesnt necessarily mean its madara, but the kyuubi recognizes it.


    as i also said before, the kyuubi never mentions being controlled by 2 people, just madara to everyone.
     
         

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    Re: Madara, Hashirama, & Kyuubi

    good theory + rep
     
         

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    Re: Madara, Hashirama, & Kyuubi

    Quote Originally Posted by shk1020 View Post
    What am I saying? The kyuubi is the only one (from the good side) who was actually alive when Madara and Hashirama fought as well as the attack from 16 years ago. When Naruto starts fighting the Edo-Madara, the Kyuubi senses Madara's chakra and helps Naruto with chakra to battle him due to his obvious dislike. Also the Kyuubi recognizes Tobi's eye (or chakra) from 16 years ago as Madara's by saying "YOU" when Tobi was releasing him from Kushina. So, is the Kyuubi not saying anything about Madara or Tobi to Naruto because the Kyuubi believes they both have the same chakra (or are even the same person)?
    It's a good point, but I think you're making a lot of assumptions about the mechanisms involved in an MS sharingan user controlling the kyuubi. You're also making a lot of assumptions about what the fox meant by what he said, and what he meant by what he did not say. That is, the fox didn't say they were different, therefore you assume that means he doesn't think they were different.

    BUT, let's run with it anyway. If the fox thinks that Madara (from 80 years ago) is the same as Tobi (from 16 years ago), what are the implications of that? Well, Tobi and Madara are clearly NOT the same person. We know this because they are in two different places, fighting two different groups of enemies, with two very different sets of eyes and sets of eye-based jutsu. The real Madara doesn't seem to have Kamui, and Tobi doesn't have any of the other MS techniques (Amaterasu, Susanoo, etc). Madara, likewise, seems to have better control over the Rinnegan techniques than Tobi does (because Tobi isn't really using them).

    So, let's say that they have the same chakra, but aren't the same person. What does that mean? Well, it suggests that they are related, or that they are clones.

    Theory 1: Tobi is an elaborate (Zetsu-based?) clone of Madara

    In this case, it sort of IS Madara, but a clone who appears to be a "shell of his former self". Why he has different eyes and hasn't kept the uber-powerful original Madara Rinnegan is anybody's guess.

    This also raises the possibility that Madara did indeed die during the fight with Hashirama, and only "lived on" in the form of the Tobi clone.

    Theory 2: Tobi is a relative or descendant of Madara

    The obvious candidate here is Izuna, who was mentioned to have the same strong chakra as Madara. The fox might have seen them as indistinguishable. Plus, it does answer the question why Tobi doesn't have Madara's eyes (Izuna had to steal replacements). If age is a problem, and Izuna doesn't look like he's 100 years old or older, then it might have to be a descendant. Who could be the descendants of Madara or Izuna? Well, we don't know. We haven't heard that either Madara or Izuna had gotten married and had kids, but it is a distinct possibility. This is one more assumption we need to make.

    Plus, it's kind of weird that Sasuke and Itachi both have Susanoo, a technique that Madara also has, and that Izuna looks like an almost exact copy of Sasuke. Also, the Fox DID explicitly say that Sasuke has the same dark chakra as Madara had, more or less. this suggests that Sasuke (and Itachi) are grandchildren or great-grandchildren of either Madara or Izuna. Since we know that Tobi isn't Sasuke or Itachi, we have to guess that it's their father (Fugaku) or a grand-father (Kagame, maybe?).

    In either case, it is a very interesting theory but you're relying on a lot of assumptions that are impossible to verify. I suspect we'll get all the answers soon.
     
         

  18. #18
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    Re: Madara, Hashirama, & Kyuubi

    nice reply whiteknight. i know i could not have put it in any better words.


    :worshippy:
     
         

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    Re: Madara, Hashirama, & Kyuubi

    i thought this would be an interesting topic, but not nearly as many replies as i hoped.
     
         

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