[Discussion] So Madara died 16 years ago?

[Noddy]

Maybe.

But it doesn't change the inconsistency.

Had Madara had lived till the last Shinobi War, he'd have seen Nagato grow up completely. Nagato would have been older than Minato at that point.

When he was revived, Madara referred to Nagato as a brat. Can you imagine referring to someone Minato's age or above as a brat? That makes no sense.
"That brat has finally grown up", "finally grown up, "grown up"

According to that Madara certainly died long before the last Shinobi war (before Nagato matured) but Kishi may retcon that.

Though I do know that Madara wasn't surprised by his appearance or state. He expected to look like that (he thought he was revived using Rinnegan), which leads me to believe that Madara resembled the way he looked right now at the time of his death.

But that goes against what Kishimoto already stated :/ If we go by what you're saying, it is logically impossible for Tobi to be Obito in mind and soul, since he must be a person that Madara was able to contact before his death; by your logic, this event occuring possibly before Obito was even born. I'm not too bothered about the 'brat' comment since it just highlights Madara's arrogance and lack of respect for anyone who isn't Shodai. I maintain that completed beyond his prime meant that he had full access to the Rinnegan whilst possessing a youthful body.

The way I see it, this is what the plot could be:

- Madara fights Shodai
- Gets DNA
- Awakens Rinnegan
- *Gives Nagato the Rinnegan
- *Lives on (for many years with some low class sharingan and meets Obito)
- Meets Itachi et al

or

- Madara fights Shodai
- Gets DNA
- Awakens Rinnegan
- *Has a partner or assistant in the form of Tobi
- Dies
- *Tobi gives Nagato the Rinnegan
- *Tobi inhabits and takes over Obito's body

* = unconfirmed.

[Defendaga]

So that can't work right? Because Nagato had grown up completely by Kakashi Gaiden time, that's a significant amount of time which would make Madara's own statement false - "I died shortly after awakening these eyes"

Unless Madara's using some different form of "shortly after", good point.
I think we'll have to wait for the next few chapters to be able to really make sense of this.

[captainEO]

But that goes against what Kishimoto already stated :/ If we go by what you're saying, it is logically impossible for Tobi to be Obito in mind and soul, since he must be a person that Madara was able to contact before his death; by your logic, this event occuring possibly before Obito was even born. I'm not too bothered about the 'brat' comment since it just highlights Madara's arrogance and lack of respect for anyone who isn't Shodai. I maintain that completed beyond his prime meant that he had full access to the Rinnegan whilst possessing a youthful body.

The way I see it, this is what the plot could be:

- Madara fights Shodai
- Gets DNA
...

- Awakens Rinnegan
- *Gives Nagato the Rinnegan
- *Lives on (for many years with some low class sharingan and meets Obito)
- Meets Itachi et al

or

- Madara fights Shodai
- Gets DNA
- Awakens Rinnegan
- *Has a partner or assistant in the form of Tobi
- Dies
- *Tobi gives Nagato the Rinnegan
- *Tobi inhabits and takes over Obito's body

* = unconfirmed.

My argument remains valid regardless.

Even if Kishi said it (recently even), Obito and Madara can't know each other according to known events. It creates a plothole, a clear one at that if they do.

At the end of the day, there's no way to continue the plot in a way that will completely satisfy every kink (or gap in logic), it's too late for that. Either way, something will be omitted or altered along the way.

I don't know how Kishi will make up for this one.

[Noddy]

My argument remains valid regardless.

Even if Kishi said it (recently even), Obito and Madara can't know each other according to known events. It creates a plothole, a clear one at that if they do.

At the end of the day, there's no way to continue the plot in a way that will completely satisfy every kink (or gap in logic), it's too late for that. Either way, something will be omitted or altered along the way.

I don't know how Kishi will make up for this one.

It's been pretty much confirmed in the manga also that Madara and Tobi know eachother, since they share the same plan and Madara speaks of 'him':

http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/561/9
http://i39.tinypic.com/1zgtgfr.jpg
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/560/2
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/564/15

So Kishimoto won't just be going against his own word, but what has been shown in the manga aswell.

[B00m]

I just want to say this thread is how every thread should be, structured arguments.

Also, I want to say how do we know who Madara is referring to just by simply say "he" and Kabuto saying "his?" Could they not be referring to Zetsu?

560, pg. 2

[supino]

Maybe.

But it doesn't change the inconsistency.

Had Madara lived till the last Shinobi War, he'd have seen Nagato grow up completely. Nagato would have been older than Minato at that point.

When he was revived, Madara referred to Nagato as a brat. Can you imagine referring to someone Minato's age or above as a brat? That makes no sense.
"That brat has finally grown up", "finally grown up", "grown up"

According to that Madara certainly died long before the last Shinobi war (before Nagato matured) but Kishi may retcon that.

Though I do know that Madara wasn't surprised by his appearance or state. He expected to look like that (he thought he was revived using Rinnegan), which leads me to believe that Madara resembled the way he looked right now at the time of his death.

doesn't he also refer to Onoki the same way? and i am pretty sure that Kishi could alter the meaning of the statement from a literal one (that is referring to Nagato's age) to a metaphorical one (speaking of Nagato's mentality, abilities, etc); this way he could actually avoid a retcon.

[GdaTyler]

in order for him to actually know Obito, let alone train him or be his mentor, then he must have died more recently than previously thought. besides it also explains how Kabuto located his grave, it would had been harder to find the place if it was 35-40 years old.

it could also explain in a way that line Obito used when confronting Minato and the latter asked him if he was Madara and that he couldn't be as Madara was dead.

I agree totally.

[GdaTyler]

Perhaps Madara didn't see Nagato since he gave him the Rinnegan, and when he was reincarnated it was the first time he saw him since the event.