I kept silent. Not anymore. Itachi is greater than Jiraya.

[Muscleman]

While good points are being made, let's look at what we know.

Defeating a sharingan user often had been mentioned at various part of the series:
--Hamper their vision (this seem to mostly work on lower level of Sharingan or people who got an implant) refer to Kakashi vs Zabuza.
--Gai had clearly shown at multiple times that Taijutsu was in general a good way to deal with most doujutsu users. Gai did even mention that he could close his eyes to fight him or just look at his feet when he encountered Itachi but then again Kakashi replied that only Gai had the specialization to do that.
-- Chiyo apparently had encounter with Sharingan user before and talked about a clear way of fighting them.
--Tsunade mentions to Kakashi that she was disappointed that he didn't manage to break out of MS on his own, which seems to be not as hard as people think but then again she was a sannin (Jiraiya is one too).


What Itachi have that we know about:
--MS
--Apparently able to make Illusion with his finger (see vs Naruto)
--Tremendous amount of speed (unless told otherwise he and Sasuke were pretty even)
--Amaretsu
--Tsukiyomi
-- Most likely has some Kaiton (Uchiha tradition to master fire)
-- SusanoO

What Jiraiya got:
--Sage Mode
--Bunch of frog Summon Jutsus (including Gamabunta)
--Various Taijutsus defenses (spiky hair refer to fight with orochimaru)
-- Bunch of Jutsus Kaiton most of them.
-- Adaptability (if his fight vs Pein wasn't proof enough that he could adapt to most fighting condition dunno what is)
--the cheap frog genjutsu

----------------------------------------
SusanOo and Frog genjutsu are both I WIN button. the frog genjutsu works against doujutsu user as proven by paralyzing Pein bodies without any difficulty. SusanOo is said to deflect every attacks but so far, the limit of this ability haven't been tested either. Their I WIN buttons are powerful but sadly having been manifested only once during the whole series, we can't really put a point to those. Does Itachi need to concentrate when he performs Susano'O, meaning constantly keeping a flow of chakra going because the frog genjutsu can simply make him stop. How long does Susano"O assuming Jiraiya managed to land his frog genjutsu and Itachi had his armor up...will Jiraiya have to wait it out for the armor to wear off?

I don't exactly put a winner on this as an obvious lack of data from both side.

[ssanimo]

itachi wins......he whips out the sword of totsuka,yata's mirror and susano
and pwns to no end......

i have said this before and even made my own thread but as far as facts are concerned......i have still not seen anyone (naruto,pain,madara,j-man,sasuke)
that you could say would hands down beat itachi

itachi and j-man are tied for my 2 fav characters so my opinion is not bias......but it doesn't matter cuz everyone has their own opinions and only kishi could say who would win as he knows the true limits of their powers

for instance it is unclear as to whether the sword and yata's mirror are part of susano or seperate spirit items.......if they are seperate you could say itachi could win w/o the sharingan all together.....

[ssanimo]

While good points are being made, let's look at what we know.

Defeating a sharingan user often had been mentioned at various part of the series:
--Hamper their vision (this seem to mostly work on lower level of Sharingan or people who got an implant) refer to Kakashi vs Zabuza.
--Gai had clearly shown at multiple times that Taijutsu was in general a good way to deal with most doujutsu users. Gai did even mention that he could close his eyes to fight him or just look at his feet when he encountered Itachi but then again Kakashi replied that only Gai had the specialization to do that.
-- Chiyo apparently had encounter with Sharingan user before and talked about a clear way of fighting them.
--Tsunade mentions to Kakashi that she was disappointed that he didn't manage to break out of MS on his own, which seems to be not as hard as people think but then again she was a sannin (Jiraiya is one too).


What Itachi have that we know about:
--MS
--Apparently able to make Illusion with his finger (see vs Naruto)
--Tremendous amount of speed (unless told otherwise he and Sasuke were pretty even)
--Amaretsu
--Tsukiyomi
-- Most likely has some Kaiton (Uchiha tradition to master fire)
-- SusanoO

What Jiraiya got:
--Sage Mode
--Bunch of frog Summon Jutsus (including Gamabunta)
--Various Taijutsus defenses (spiky hair refer to fight with orochimaru)
-- Bunch of Jutsus Kaiton most of them.
-- Adaptability (if his fight vs Pein wasn't proof enough that he could adapt to most fighting condition dunno what is)
--the cheap frog genjutsu

----------------------------------------
SusanOo and Frog genjutsu are both I WIN button. the frog genjutsu works against doujutsu user as proven by paralyzing Pein bodies without any difficulty. SusanOo is said to deflect every attacks but so far, the limit of this ability haven't been tested either. Their I WIN buttons are powerful but sadly having been manifested only once during the whole series, we can't really put a point to those. Does Itachi need to concentrate when he performs Susano'O, meaning constantly keeping a flow of chakra going because the frog genjutsu can simply make him stop. How long does Susano"O assuming Jiraiya managed to land his frog genjutsu and Itachi had his armor up...will Jiraiya have to wait it out for the armor to wear off?

I don't exactly put a winner on this as an obvious lack of data from both side.

well itachi brought susano out before a lightning bolt could reach him.......thats pretty danm fast.......and the frogs have to store up sage chakra to preform their genjutsu (see pa frog being pwned by pain)

[Muscleman]

well itachi brought susano out before a lightning bolt could reach him.......thats pretty danm fast.......and the frogs have to store up sage chakra to preform their genjutsu (see pa frog being pwned by pain)

which is mostly my concern about SusanoO, does it reflect Genjutsu? Sadly Sasuke is far from being a genjutsu user so we didn't get to see one try. Reflecting fireballs and physical attacks are at least different for me than using a mental attack.

[★ Rei ★]

Keep discussing this topic without personal attacks please

which part of this didn't you get? everyone?

~Closed until i clear the spam and the flaming and i will re open it ~
and yeah next one isn't a warning is an infraction.

[★ Rei ★]

~Open and i hope you get how lucky you all are~

[Steinbiz]

~Open and i hope you get how lucky you all are~

thnx mom

but yeah, jiraiya can overpower itachi with hermit mode, because it's too fast and powerful.

[Mighty Curtain Messiah]

thnx mom

but yeah, jiraiya can overpower itachi with hermit mode, because it's too fast and powerful.

xDDD

*gets popcorn*

[Steinbiz]

xDDD

*gets popcorn*

that's spam fyi.

jiraiya has too much knowledge and experience to be caught in MS jutsus.

[Mighty Curtain Messiah]

that's spam fyi.

jiraiya has too much knowledge and experience to be caught in MS jutsus.

But Itachi is too smart to let him escape from these jutsu



And it wasnt spam, I just know peraceful is gonna flame you so ;o

[peaceful]

[QUOTE=Muscleman;1254386]

Defeating a sharingan user often had been mentioned at various part of the series:
--Hamper their vision (this seem to mostly work on lower level of Sharingan or people who got an implant) refer to Kakashi vs Zabuza.

I doubt that Itachi is on the level of pre-time skip Kakashi.

--Gai had clearly shown at multiple times that Taijutsu was in general a good way to deal with most doujutsu users. Gai did even mention that he could close his eyes to fight him or just look at his feet when he encountered Itachi but then again Kakashi replied that only Gai had the specialization to do that.

This only works for Genjutsu. If gai applied this to his fight with Itachi he would have gotten Amaterasu in his ass in 2 seconds.

-- Chiyo apparently had encounter with Sharingan user before and talked about a clear way of fighting them.

lol... Only two ninjas together can defeat a sharingan user. Is Jiraya two niinjas?

--Tsunade mentions to Kakashi that she was disappointed that he didn't manage to break out of MS on his own, which seems to be not as hard as people think but then again she was a sannin (Jiraiya is one too).

When did that happen? Page?

What Itachi have that we know about:

--MS
--Apparently able to make Illusion with his finger (see vs Naruto)
--Tremendous amount of speed (unless told otherwise he and Sasuke were pretty even)
--Amaretsu
--Tsukiyomi
-- Most likely has some Kaiton (Uchiha tradition to master fire)
-- SusanoO

He has shown to have kaiton against his fight with Sasuke. He most likely has another element and probably a third too. Also he is extremely intelligent and strategist. He has extreme handseal speed to the point that Kakashi failed to notice his seals.

What Jiraiya got:
--Sage Mode
--Bunch of frog Summon Jutsus (including Gamabunta)
--Various Taijutsus defenses (spiky hair refer to fight with orochimaru)
-- Bunch of Jutsus Kaiton most of them.
-- Adaptability (if his fight vs Pein wasn't proof enough that he could adapt to most fighting condition dunno what is)
--the cheap frog genjutsu

I agree.
----------------------------------------

SusanOo and Frog genjutsu are both I WIN button. the frog genjutsu works against doujutsu user as proven by paralyzing Pein bodies without any difficulty. SusanOo is said to deflect every attacks but so far, the limit of this ability haven't been tested either.

Neither has the toad jutsu. We have not seen Jiraya doing this jutsu against a proficient Uchiha user who has specialty in genjutsu.

Their I WIN buttons are powerful but sadly having been manifested only once during the whole series, we can't really put a point to those. Does Itachi need to concentrate when he performs Susano'O, meaning constantly keeping a flow of chakra going because the frog genjutsu can simply make him stop. How long does Susano"O assuming Jiraiya managed to land his frog genjutsu and Itachi had his armor up...will Jiraiya have to wait it out for the armor to wear off?

Susanoo is a summon. Itachi does not have to concentrate imo. Jiraya has to wait to get into sage mode and has to wait for the toad jutsu. If Itachi wants to kill Jiraya with Susanoo he can try in less of 5 seconds.

that's spam fyi.

jiraiya has too much knowledge and experience to be caught in MS jutsus.

And Itachi has Susanoo.

But Itachi is too smart to let him escape from these jutsu



And it wasnt spam, I just know peraceful is gonna flame you so ;o

Who is peraceful?

[SenseY]

itachi got afraid cus jiraiya is much taller than him! duh

[Fastlikesnail]

Again, you make many fine arguments. But I still don't see how they could be afraid of Naruto.

Kisame handled the much more experienced the four tailed Jinchuuriki all by himself.

Orochimaru, who, as you've pointed out, is much weaker than Itatchi seemed to be in some control when battling four tailed Naruto.

Even so, at this point, the seal was very strong. You say they didn't know that, and then claim Itatchi was a genius. A genius doesn't go after enemies without some understanding of them first.

Also, as showed by how Pain's attacking Hinata seemed to trigger 6-tailed Naruto, it'd follow that if they wanted to keep the fox contained, beating up Sasuke was the worst idea. They weren't afraid of Naruto.

Itatchi was either worried about Jiraiya, or pretending to be worried about Jiraiya.

[peaceful]

Again, you make many fine arguments. But I still don't see how they could be afraid of Naruto.

Kisame handled the much more experienced the four tailed Jinchuuriki all by himself.

Orochimaru, who, as you've pointed out, is much weaker than Itatchi seemed to be in some control when battling four tailed Naruto.

Even so, at this point, the seal was very strong. You say they didn't know that, and then claim Itatchi was a genius. A genius doesn't go after enemies without some understanding of them first.

Also, as showed by how Pain's attacking Hinata seemed to trigger 6-tailed Naruto, it'd follow that if they wanted to keep the fox contained, beating up Sasuke was the worst idea. They weren't afraid of Naruto.

Itatchi was either worried about Jiraiya, or pretending to be worried about Jiraiya.

Again they were afraid of a full release. A full release is much much more frightening than Jiraya. That is why they said bringing more mebers would make no diference as Kuybi cannot be defeated. Only sealed. And how could Itachi know how strong or weak the seal was? I already told you that as long as Itachi could use his mangekuy they didnt care about the kuybi. That is why kisame proposed to cut his legs off... But after Itachi became exhausted and had to use amaterasu and tsukuyomi and tsukuyomi to kakashi, admited exhaustion and that he had to rest his sharingan, being unable to control kuybi in a case of a realese.

[griems]

Yaaawn this is just like any other post or whatever from this guy just trying to be right and proving his own opinions, he uses terms as "false assumptions" yet that's all this is.

I really really doubt the people at DatteBayo who were subbing naruto at the time would make an error like that and guess what *drumrolls* that proves Itachi was referring to Jman - and the rest everyone already knows.

[peaceful]

Yaaawn this is just like any other post or whatever from this guy just trying to be right and proving his own opinions, he uses terms as "false assumptions" yet that's all this is.

I really really doubt the people at DatteBayo who were subbing naruto at the time would make an error like that and guess what *drumrolls* that proves Itachi was referring to Jman - and the rest everyone already knows.

-facepalm- You do not really know how to read, do you? Who is Dattebayo? If you are refering to the anime then facepalm...

Yet i have never seen you posting anything of good quality only posts like this. So unless you want to tell something about the topic do not even bother to post...

[SSJ3Gotenks]

Yaaawn this is just like any other post or whatever from this guy just trying to be right and proving his own opinions, he uses terms as "false assumptions" yet that's all this is.

I really really doubt the people at DatteBayo who were subbing naruto at the time would make an error like that and guess what *drumrolls* that proves Itachi was referring to Jman - and the rest everyone already knows.

Thank you someone else sees this for what it it is. there have already been quite a few topics of Itachi vs. Jiraiya. So to me this whole thread is spamming. why start another thread of what has already been talked about and voted on?????

[SSJ3Gotenks]

And on topic since you wanna keep bringing this up. Jiraiya would have totally owned Itachi and he knew it that is why they tried to trick him to get Naruto alone. Itachi took orders from Pain and you never heard of him trying to fight him for whatever reason if he was protecting the village. ( I am not saying he wasn't) Jiraiya went on his own to fight pain without knowing anything about him until he started to fight him and still managed to kill some of his bodies. Yes i know they came back we all do. All Itachi did was destroy Uchiha w/ Madara and i am not sure he even really wanted to do that. Remember most of the "Facts" we are getting about that night are from Madara himself so who knows how much is actually true. We do know that Itachi and Madara destroyed all Uchiha except Sasuke. Then Sasuke beat Itachi sort of. There is no way that at that time that Sasuke or Itachi stood a chance against Jiraiya believe what you want. But most beleive that Jiraiya would have won.

[peaceful]

-facepalm-

ok from the beggining i will prove how wrong you are!

And on topic since you wanna keep bringing this up. Jiraiya would have totally owned Itachi and he knew it that is why they tried to trick him to get Naruto alone.

No. he tricked him because as Itachi said to Kisame he did not want to cause commotion. If he caused commotion by fighting Jiraya allies of Jiraya would have come and soon Itachi and Kisame would have to fight the whole Konoha. Not only that but Itachi did not want to fight Jiraya because they were allies. Also itachi was there only to warn Danzo and the elders. fianlly Itachi did not want to get in uselles fighting that would have no gain and that would endager his life. All these are things you would have known have you read the op.

Itachi took orders from Pain and you never heard of him trying to fight him for whatever reason if he was protecting the village. ( I am not saying he wasn't)

Itachis goal and main priority was Sasuke and not Konoha. In fact Itachi frightened Madara enough to stop him from attcking Konoha.

Jiraiya went on his own to fight pain without knowing anything about him until he started to fight him and still managed to kill some of his bodies. Yes i know they came back we all do. All Itachi did was destroy Uchiha w/ Madara and i am not sure he even really wanted to do that. Remember most of the "Facts" we are getting about that night are from Madara himself so who knows how much is actually true.

Itachi assasinated the most powerful clan in existence with the most powerful doujutsu for such things. Could have Jiraya do the same?No.

We do know that Itachi and Madara destroyed all Uchiha except Sasuke. Then Sasuke beat Itachi sort of. There is no way that at that time that Sasuke or Itachi stood a chance against Jiraiya believe what you want. But most beleive that Jiraiya would have won.

Sasuke beat a half dead and blind Itachi who wanted Sasuke to win. Believe alll you want i just pwnt you...

[Orion]

Here are the Itachi and Jiraiya Stats...

Itachi Uchiha:
Ninjutsu: 5
Taijutsu: 4.5
Genjutsu: 5
Intelligence: 5
Power: 3.5
Speed: 5
Stamina: 2.5
Seals: 5

Jiraiya
Ninjutsu:5
Taijutsu:4.5
Genjutsu: 3
Intelligence: 4.5
Power:4.5
Speed:4.5
Stamina:5
Seals:4.5

Pretty much equal...total is same(35.5)

Considering about major diffrences...
Genjutsu:-Itachi with no doubts is greatest genjutsu user in series..But how genjutsu works...By controlling oppositions chakra and showing him some illusions...Example : Sasuke using on Kirabi
How to break it by disrupting your chakra flow...Example:Kirabi by using beats chakra..
Jiraiya said he is weak in genjutsu(Show me a manga page)
If you are considering anime, Jiraiya was talking about using genjutsu he is weak at, not at cancelling...
Consider a scenario Itachi uses some genjutsu on Jiraiya, Jiraiya simply can absorb natural energy to cancel it...So even Tsukuyomi wont work and so is Sword of Totsuka is rendered useless...
Saying that Jiraiya has never shown resilience against genjutsu is nonsense..
Jiraiya has shown resilience against Genjutsu:-

Power:Itachi lacks power to match up with Jiraiya, conisdering their Tai and speeed is pretty good, and considering Jiraiya may use sage mode, Itachi needs strength to be on equal footing...

Stamina:Itachi clearly lacks stamina...Peaceful said he can use Susano'o to counter this weakness, but it seems he forgot, Susano'o drains Itachis chakra even rapidly...
Itachi us greatest gen user but I dont think so he can easily dealt with song genjutsu by frog as it uses sound... It seems Sound can pass through Susano'o so itachi is vulnerable against it...

Consider final MS technique Amaterasu...
It seems Itachi used amaterasu at full power to break from so belly of giant frog can be good counter against it....
If you are thinking about the speed at which it is delivered...We can be sure that Jiraiya will use sage mode against Itachi. So pace/speed should not be a problem....

Let me tell you, I am not big Jiraiya fan but rather prefer itachi...But fact is fact, they were the greatest shinobi till now, and they are pretty much equal, experienced shinobis.

Look this image, it is clear at last Itachi agreed to Kisame saying that they can not defeat Jiraiya

[Deidara...]

Sasuke beat a half dead and blind Itachi who wanted Sasuke to win. Believe alll you want i just pwnt you...

sorry for the spam but this ws just too funny
im still lmao

:D:D

[griems]

-facepalm- You do not really know how to read, do you? Who is Dattebayo? If you are refering to the anime then facepalm...

Yet i have never seen you posting anything of good quality only posts like this. So unless you want to tell something about the topic do not even bother to post...

It doesn't matter if dattebayo is from the anime or not fact remains that what is said in the manga is the same and in BOTH cases it was translated the same.

Also I don't really feel the need to start useless topics like this because unlike you I don't need to prove I'm right and put people down. I just enjoy reading interesting theory's, not that I need to justify why I'm here to you..

And in case you havn't noticed, stop making arguments based on your opinion, facts are not proven with "i think" "imo" and "probably".

[Deidara...]

It doesn't matter if dattebayo is from the anime or not fact remains that what is said in the manga is the same and in BOTH cases it was translated the same.

Also I don't really feel the need to start useless topics like this because unlike you I don't need to prove I'm right and put people down. I just enjoy reading interesting theory's, not that I need to justify why I'm here to you..

And in case you havn't noticed, stop making arguments based on your opinion, facts are not proven with "i think" "imo" and "probably".

the translations are always different because japanese is not a subject oriented language meaning its spoken through inference

you've got a good point about theories :D

[peaceful]

[QUOTE=SSJ4Naruto;1256008]

Pretty much equal...total is same(35.5)

As i said Itachi has excellence in better areas.

Considering about major diffrences...
Genjutsu:-Itachi with no doubts is greatest genjutsu user in series..But how genjutsu works...By controlling oppositions chakra and showing him some illusions...Example : Sasuke using on Kirabi
How to break it by disrupting your chakra flow...Example:Kirabi by using beats chakra..
Jiraiya said he is weak in genjutsu(Show me a manga page)
If you are considering anime, Jiraiya was talking about using genjutsu he is weak at, not at cancelling...

No we dont consider anime. jiraya admiting that he is weak at genjutsu is further justified by his databook stat. Jiaraya wont be able to break off Itachis genjutsu. He has not shown the ability to do so. Anything else is just pure speculation contradicting Jirayas words.

Consider a scenario Itachi uses some genjutsu on Jiraiya, Jiraiya simply can absorb natural energy to cancel it...So even Tsukuyomi wont work and so is Sword of Totsuka is rendered useless...

Jiraya cannot absorb Natural energy when he is genjutsud. Tsukuyomi is only breakable be someone who is uchiha and is a proficient sharingan user. jiraya not only he isnt uchiha and sharingan user but he sucks at genjutsu too. Dont spread nonsense about Totsukas sword. lol How di dyou even think that? It is not genjustsu it is a seling sword.

Power:Itachi lacks power to match up with Jiraiya, conisdering their Tai and speeed is pretty good, and considering Jiraiya may use sage mode, Itachi needs strength to be on equal footing...

No. Itachi never resorts to tai in order to win. He uses nin and gen.
Stamina:Itachi clearly lacks stamina...Peaceful said he can use

Susano'o to counter this weakness, but it seems he forgot, Susano'o drains Itachis chakra even rapidly...

No it doesnt. It feed on the users life. Jiraya would be stabbed in three seconds. So no argument for Itachi dieing by the drain.

Itachi us greatest gen user but I dont think so he can easily dealt with song genjutsu by frog as it uses sound... It seems Sound can pass through Susano'o so itachi is vulnerable against it...

Itachi can avoid it with the jutsu i included in the op.

Consider final MS technique Amaterasu...
It seems Itachi used amaterasu at full power to break from so belly of giant frog can be good counter against it....

LOL... It is not a wall that can block amaterasu. he will be just inside it and amaterasu jiraya inside there.

If you are thinking about the speed at which it is delivered...We can be sure that Jiraiya will use sage mode against Itachi. So pace/speed should not be a problem....

Itachi is a faster seal maker even when Jiraa is in sage mode.

Let me tell you, I am not big Jiraiya fan but rather prefer itachi...But fact is fact, they were the greatest shinobi till now, and they are pretty much equal, experienced shinobis.

Look this image, it is clear at last Itachi agreed to Kisame saying that they can not defeat Jiraiya

And the
parade goes on even when proving wrong the argument...

[Orion]

Jiraya cannot absorb Natural energy when he is genjutsud. Tsukuyomi is only breakable be someone who is uchiha and is a proficient sharingan user. jiraya not only he isnt uchiha and sharingan user but he sucks at genjutsu too. Dont spread nonsense about Totsukas sword. lol How di dyou even think that? It is not genjustsu it is a seling sword.

It is not necessary that he can not absorb natural energy... As I have said in earlier post Jiraiya will obviously use sage mode to fight Itachi, considering the amount of chakra he will have in sage mode, It is impossible for itachi to control it...Sword of Tosuka cast eternal genjutsu....Eternal genjutsu against one who by sheer will power comes back from dead wont be that useful...

No. Itachi never resorts to tai in order to win. He uses nin and gen.
Stamina:Itachi clearly lacks stamina...Peaceful said he can use
No it doesnt. It feed on the users life. Jiraya would be stabbed in three seconds. So no argument for Itachi dieing by the drain.

Itachi can avoid it with the jutsu i included in the op.

Overpowering Susanoo, that thing has never been really tested

LOL... It is not a wall that can block amaterasu. he will be just inside it and amaterasu jiraya inside there.

Possible...

Itachi is a faster seal maker even when Jiraa is in sage mode.

Thats a pretty baseless argument...

And the
parade goes on even when proving wrong the argument...

I read your that comment refering as that they were talking about Kyuubi..In the image provided by you, yes they were talking about Kyuubi, but in the image I posted, it was about Jiraiya, It will be confusing if they changed topic suddenly from Jiraiya to Kyuubi...
It is very obvious that itachi wont consider kyuubi as a hero...