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  1. #26
    Member peteriscoo's Avatar
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    Re: Evolution. Were we really envolve from monkeys?

    This tread is one big facepalm. go read a book guys
     
         

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    Senior Member Yusuke Urameshi's Avatar
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    Re: Evolution. Were we really envolve from monkeys?

    Quote Originally Posted by Germanicus View Post
    On this, I have to ask if you even tried to take anything from what I wrote in the first place? And second, Mark Twain was not a scientist, and did not ever touch anywhere near being so. He had little to no interaction with any kind of scientific theory. His claim to fame was cutting wit on society; science he couldn't begin to touch. He has no credibility there and therefore your argument is invalid.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but you pretty much asked, "why didn't God have human experiments to find what works where and how?" If that's your question, then applying Mark Twain's quote isn't wrong, regardless of being a scientist or not. I did that for some humor. What kind of a God, or the God from the Bible, would hold human experiments to find the best-working organism? That's not just. That's on the level of evil scientist. And if he's all-knowing, as he is in the Bible, why would he even have to hold those experiments in the first place? He could've just made a perfect being, which in fact, he did. The Fall of Man is a totally different story in correlation to this topic.
     
         

  3. #28
    Senior Member narutokage99's Avatar
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    Re: Evolution. Were we really envolve from monkeys?

    Quote Originally Posted by Germanicus View Post
    http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html

    Read please. All of this is from a verified data base with words and excerpts from people who are much more qualified than you, and admittedly to me, on what is and is not true. Hopefully this will give you some to perspective to how much proof evolution really has behind it.

    I'm sure any bit of information on the Internet can become an iceberg nowadays. I can point out lots of websites to you, too. That proves absolutely nothing but that your side has its (pathetic, if I may say so) arguments, and my side has our arguments too. What you need to do is not let others do your thinking for you. I believe in researching BOTH sides so that I know what each says, and then weighing which makes more sense, which is more logical, and which has more scientific merit. There is no scientific merit in saying that particles came into existence with no former cause, and then made themselves into everything we know of, including the brains we have to investigate them. Neither is there logic in it. Neither is there sense. It did not happen, no matter what those pathetic websites try to come up with to "prove" it did, which they can never do, because it can't be repeated. Meantime, I'm very familiar with talkorigins and their pathetic arguments.
     
         

  4. #29
    Senior Member Germanicus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yusuke Urameshi View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but you pretty much asked, "why didn't God have human experiments to find what works where and how?" If that's your question, then applying Mark Twain's quote isn't wrong, regardless of being a scientist or not. I did that for some humor. What kind of a God, or the God from the Bible, would hold human experiments to find the best-working organism? That's not just. That's on the level of evil scientist. And if he's all-knowing, as he is in the Bible, why would he even have to hold those experiments in the first place? He could've just made a perfect being, which in fact, he did. The Fall of Man is a totally different story in correlation to this topic.
    1. You completely misinterpret when I said god could have potentially allowed humans to evolve. God wouldn't have been doing "experiments", he would have created the initial form of life, the cell, and allowed it to mature from there under a basic set of natural laws, which recur endlessly. And I did not question; I was suggesting and asserting.
    2. You yourself are going off topic. I never mentioned "the fall of man", why did you even bring that up?
    3. You aren't really doing anything to scientifically disprove evolution. You're just spouting religious doctrine, which, last I recall, had a terrible history when dealing with scientific fact. They also encouraged people to believe the earth was the center of the universe, do you believe that too?

    Quote Originally Posted by narutokage99 View Post
    I'm sure any bit of information on the Internet can become an iceberg nowadays. I can point out lots of websites to you, too. That proves absolutely nothing but that your side has its (pathetic, if I may say so) arguments, and my side has our arguments too. What you need to do is not let others do your thinking for you. I believe in researching BOTH sides so that I know what each says, and then weighing which makes more sense, which is more logical, and which has more scientific merit. There is no scientific merit in saying that particles came into existence with no former cause, and then made themselves into everything we know of, including the brains we have to investigate them. Neither is there logic in it. Neither is there sense. It did not happen, no matter what those pathetic websites try to come up with to "prove" it did, which they can never do, because it can't be repeated. Meantime, I'm very familiar with talkorigins and their pathetic arguments.
    Pathetic?! Did you even read? It held a substantial amount of information, with quotes from educators, scientific researchers, and scientific journals alike. And particles came into existence from a little something called the Big Bang...also substantially proven. If you really believe you know more than these people who have doctorates and experience in their fields of research, I really want to know who dropped you on your head as a child and punch them for creating a ignoramus who can't even acknowledge one the existence of one of the most well founded biological concepts of all time.
     
         
    Last edited by Ira; 10-03-2012 at 10:11 AM.

  5. #30
    The Devil's Advocate Shinobi Train's Avatar
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    Re: Evolution. Were we really envolve from monkeys?



    As a religious person, I can say with complete confidence that no one has ever evolved from anything, be that monkey or anything else.

    ...and people think religion is crazy. -_-
     
         

  6. #31
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    Re: Evolution. Were we really envolve from monkeys?

    Its hard to believe we actually evolved ..

    First of all, intelligence didnt evolve. If we evolved from some common ancestor like ape, then we should still be living in primitive way and we might not be genius until now. Why did the monkey who has the common ancestor like us still live in the way they are right now? Why dont be intelligent like us too.

    And im sure we are not the only being who get evolved. Why other species who get evolved too didnt became an intellectual being like us? Why only us?

    Don't forget about emotions and other features like conscience. The animal only have their instict. Which is rather interesting too.

    Evolution theory is not legit.
     
         

  7. #32
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    Re: Evolution. Were we really envolve from monkeys?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xentinel View Post
    Its hard to believe we actually evolved ..

    First of all, intelligence didnt evolve. If we evolved from some common ancestor like ape, then we should still be living in primitive way and we might not be genius until now. Why did the monkey who has the common ancestor like us still live in the way they are right now? Why dont be intelligent like us too.

    And im sure we are not the only being who get evolved. Why other species who get evolved too didnt became an intellectual being like us? Why only us?

    Don't forget about emotions and other features like conscience. The animal only have their instict. Which is rather interesting too.

    Evolution theory is not legit.
    Well, with any fantasy story, those telling it have already come up with theories to explain most of the plot holes away. So believe me, they've expanded their story to accomodate for all that. The one thing they can't seem to answer is where it actually all began. They just answer the question with more questions so as to push it back and make it all seem more plausible.
     
         

  8. #33
    Senior Member Yusuke Urameshi's Avatar
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    Re: Evolution. Were we really envolve from monkeys?

    Quote Originally Posted by Germanicus View Post
    1. You completely misinterpret when I said god could have potentially allowed humans to evolve. God wouldn't have been doing "experiments", he would have created the initial form of life, the cell, and allowed it to mature from there under a basic set of natural laws, which recur endlessly. And I did not question; I was suggesting and asserting.
    2. You yourself are going off topic. I never mentioned "the fall of man", why did you even bring that up?
    3. You aren't really doing anything to scientifically disprove evolution. You're just spouting religious doctrine, which, last I recall, had a terrible history when dealing with scientific fact. They also encouraged people to believe the earth was the center of the universe, do you believe that too?
    1. God, when he created the universe, created things with age. He created the earth with age. He created both Adam and Eve with age. It wouldn't be necessary for him to create a cell, let that mature, blah, blah, blah, when he could just make the finished product. Also, God created the world in 7 days. In , it takes way longer than 7 days for a cell to become tissue, let alone into a human being. And also, what type of cell would he have created? An almighty 'Master' cell, that would later split off and create adipocytes, melanicytes, RB cells, WB cells, etc.? Also, when God created the earth, there were no 'natural laws'. It was by His laws that the earth flowed, not by natural ones. That argument in itself is absurd.
    2. I know it was off topic, that's why I didn't divulge into it, saying it didn't correlate with the topic at hand.
    3. I don't know if you read my previous statements. I included many natural things in creation that disprove evolution, and support creation. If you did read them and want more, there is a ex-Evolutionist turned Creationist that made videos disproving evolution. I forget his name, but the videos are quite interesting and he obviously knows both evolution and creation. I suggest you look him up.
    4. Finally, and most importantly, IT'S WHAT YOU BELIEVE! I'm most likely not going to change my thinking based on what you say, and you most likely aren't going to change based on what I say. It all comes down to personal judgement and beliefs. With that, I'm going to bed. I've got to go to school in the morning.
     
         

  9. #34
    Senior Member Germanicus's Avatar
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    Re: Evolution. Were we really envolve from monkeys?

    Bah, Creationism. Good for the inquisition, a few genocides, and little else. I'm out. Y'all have fun with whatever else from here on out.
     
         

  10. #35
    Senior Member Yusuke Urameshi's Avatar
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    Re: Evolution. Were we really envolve from monkeys?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shinobi Train View Post
    Well, with any fantasy story, those telling it have already come up with theories to explain most of the plot holes away. So believe me, they've expanded their story to accomodate for all that. The one thing they can't seem to answer is where it actually all began. They just answer the question with more questions so as to push it back and make it all seem more plausible.
    Exactly. Evolutionists try to argue the fact that dust particles or whatever it may be collided and created a big bang, blah, blah, blah. Something dead can't evolve. My deceased grandma can't evolve into a living person. Dust, or whatever scientists claim the substance is, can't evolve into cells.
     
         

  11. #36
    Heathen. ImmaculateShadow's Avatar
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    Re: Evolution. Were we really envolve from monkeys?

    Quote Originally Posted by theRPGdude View Post
    Well this topic has been on my mind for quite a while. And I found no cuclusive evidence to the matter. Turns out there's no evidence supporting that we really envolve. We basically who made from a high being. Evolution denotes that life's were made by chance. That's everything just suddenly happen. It's false. If you look around you and see the marvelous thugs in the world it makes me wonder. Were we really created by nothing? Or were we designed? This is not a rant this is a debate on what YOU think. I honestly don't know. And I was wondering if you guys have studied this or believe in God. Cause me I honestly don't believe it. Just seems a bit to far fetched if you ask me. So what you guys think?
    Actually the Theory of Evolution doesn't have a bias on whether the chances of organized life growing out of the universe are high or low statistically. In other words, the Theory of Evolution should be expected in a universe that is geared to grow life. In this way the universe is then a novelty producing engine.

    Take it from some one who went from being a Fundamentalist Christian to taking up the position of Atheism and then finally learning, discussing, contemplating & reading my way to Pantheism.


    Quote Originally Posted by Yusuke Urameshi View Post
    C.S. Lewis quotes, roughly, "evolutionists believe thoughts are chemicals. If that's true, how can we trust our own thoughts if they're made by chance. Evolution is a thought, so how can we trust that thought?" Roughly, that makes evolution collapse on itself. I believe in adapting or 'evolving' in that sense. Humans that live closer to the equator are going to be darker-skinned because they adapted, or evolved. Also, if we evolved from monkeys, why aren't they still evolving? Why are we not evolving? Charles Darwin on his deathbed even said he realizes evolution can't be true.
    First and for most C.S. Lewis didn't understand what the Theory of Evolution was given the quote above. One simple error of his that I can point out is that Humans did not evolve from monkey's within any historical model of the Theory of Evolution. We share a common ancestor.

    Now if you don't understand what that means, I'll be more than happy to explain. 'Common ancestry' means that at one time 3.9 Billion years ago all forms of life on Earth had the same ancestor — where as some where between 8 to 4 Million years ago Humanity and Primates shared a common ancestor.

    To put this on an even smaller scale your cousins and you have a common ancestor — this could ether be a set of Grandparents or Great-Grandparents.

    On that last line of Lewis', he's simply miss-quoting some one else. That's been well known for a while now. Even the Christian Fundamentalist group Answers in Genesis thinks it is simply a rumor. [link]

    Also, if the earth was millions of years old, the oceans would be salt. The moon would be out of our gravitational orbit. There are many more natural things that disprove evolution, but I've written enough.
    Actually the Young Earth Creationist claim — believe me I used to be one — is this: "Known processes to remove sodium from the oceans account for only 27 percent of the sodium that is added. Given the accumulation of sodium this implies, the oceans could not be more than 62 million years old." [sorce]

    What you and others don't realize is that Austin and Humphreys greatly underestimate the amount of sodium lost in the alteration of basalt. They omit sodium lost in the formation of diatomaceous earth, and they omit numerous others mechanisms which are minor individually but collectively account for a significant fraction of salt.

    A detailed analysis of sodium shows that 35.6 x 1010 kg/yr come into the ocean, and 38.1 x 1010 kg/yr are removed (Morton 1996). Within measurement error, the amount of sodium added matches the amount removed. [source]

    Finally, your claim about the moon disregards physics, mathematics & paleontology. You can find the thorough de-bunking of the YEC claim about the moon's orbit here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Germanicus View Post
    It's proven scientific fact, it's not even a theory anymore. All life forms originated from the duplication of a single cell, and all life, from one thing or another, descends from common ancestors. The man from monkey debate is just one part of a much larger, vital study in the progress of life on earth. But yes, it is one hundred percent true.
    Oh Germanicus, what am I going to do with you — kudos to you for understanding the science behind biology enough to know the validity of Evolution!

    Though evolution is still a theory in the same way gravity is a theory. Evolution is a convergence of many differing fields where as gravity is physics. Hence Gravity is a Theory of Physics where as Evolution is a multi-disciplinary Theory.

    If you still don't know what I mean then here is the definition of a scientific theory:

    "a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment."

    - cheers
     
         

  12. #37
    Member SandVillageShinobi's Avatar
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    Re: Evolution. Were we really envolve from monkeys?

    For those who question evolution:

    Whales have hipbones which causes scientists to believe they once had legs and walked on land. Scientist believe the appendix once had a purpose in the human body but we evolved to the point of no longer needing it. Butterflies are the fastest form of evolution today. I happen to believe all of these things may be true and I definitely believe in evolution because it is the mostly logical thing to me. I happen to find this more logical than a supreme being or deity.
     
         

  13. #38
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    Re: Evolution. Were we really envolve from monkeys?

    I know that it's hard to believe if someone just told you that an all-powerful being created us, but it would seem more unbelievable to me that a gigantic explosion created our universes and galaxies.
     
         

  14. #39
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    It may be hard to believe but maybe nothing created the universe. Maybe it just is. Maybe the universe is just there because it is. We will never know how, or if it even was, it was created. I doubt that we're even meant to know these things. I don't even believe that we were even meant to step foot on the moon. If we were meant to step foot off the earth and on the moon, or anywhere else, it would be able to sustain life. My point is if we were meant to know/ do these things we would know/do them, and I know we DID step on the moon but we couldn't be there for long because the moon cannot and never will sustain life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shinobi Train View Post
    Well, with any fantasy story, those telling it have already come up with theories to explain most of the plot holes away. So believe me, they've expanded their story to accomodate for all that. The one thing they can't seem to answer is where it actually all began. They just answer the question with more questions so as to push it back and make it all seem more plausible.
    I happen to find you calling my beliefs a fantasy story offensive. You don't hear me calling christianity(or any religion for that matter) a fantasy story. I may not believe in those things but I try not shut other people down for them. You can say you don't believe in it and your reasons behind it, but please do not say anything against it.
     
         
    Last edited by Ira; 10-03-2012 at 10:12 AM.

  15. #40
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    Re: Evolution. Were we really envolve from monkeys?

    This thread is one big ad hominem fallacy.
    Theists say; 'nothing evolved, we were all created', yet still believes in a Divine Creator who was 'just there' and has always been there. @ Your lack of evidence and complete reliance on conspiracy theories and undermining scientists.
    I find your argument that 'it's still a theory' amusing as hell.
    'd hard. Thanks, theists.
     
         

  16. #41
    Member SandVillageShinobi's Avatar
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    Re: Evolution. Were we really envolve from monkeys?

    Quote Originally Posted by IAmWumbo View Post
    No we evolved from Decepticons, just ask your parents.
    My mother said God made me. I have yet to believe her though.
     
         

  17. #42
    is carbon based. Ira's Avatar
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    Re: Evolution. Were we really envolve from monkeys?

    Do not double/multi post people. Please learn to use multi quote and edit buttons instead. Thank you.
     
         

  18. #43
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    Re: Evolution. Were we really envolve from monkeys?

    Did u guys know gravity is also a THEORY... and im pretty sure most people accept it as a fact.
    This thread is sad.
     
         

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    Senior Member Yusuke Urameshi's Avatar
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    Re: Evolution. Were we really envolve from monkeys?

    Quote Originally Posted by SandVillageShinobi View Post
    It may be hard to believe but maybe nothing created the universe. Maybe it just is. Maybe the universe is just there because it is. We will never know how, or if it even was, it was created. I doubt that we're even meant to know these things. I don't even believe that we were even meant to step foot on the moon. If we were meant to step foot off the earth and on the moon, or anywhere else, it would be able to sustain life. My point is if we were meant to know/ do these things we would know/do them, and I know we DID step on the moon but we couldn't be there for long because the moon cannot and never will sustain life.



    I happen to find you calling my beliefs a fantasy story offensive. You don't hear me calling christianity(or any religion for that matter) a fantasy story. I may not believe in those things but I try not shut other people down for them. You can say you don't believe in it and your reasons behind it, but please do not say anything against it.
    You do realize Christianity's been persecuted for a couple thousand years, while evolution less than 200. If anyone's known or knows persecution, it'd be the Christians. However, I do see where you're coming from saying we shouldn't judge. I also agree that if I don't believe the same thing as someone else, I'm not going to bash them or hate them for their beliefs.
     
         

  20. #45
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    Re: Evolution. Were we really envolve from monkeys?

    It is a Fact that we have a Common Ancestor with Monkeys.
     
         

  21. #46
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    Re: Evolution. Were we really envolve from monkeys?

    I find incredibly strange that a lot of theists decide that science is invalid only when it crosses over their beliefs. Somehow you think they managed to get gravity, electromagnetism, electronics and so many other innovations right, but when it comes to the things your bible tells you, it must be wrong. There is pretty much no evidence that you would accept as good enough.

    If evolution had as many holes as you make it out to have, it would have been rejected by the scientific community ages ago. Unlike religion, science constantly modifies itself, adding new theories and updating old ones. This all relies on a system of proof. There seems to be this growing trend (most likely not a recent thing) with the fundamentalists that feel that science is encroaching upon religious grounds, so they feel they must defend their beliefs and try to counter attack science. The thing with science and scientists, is they don't care about religion in the sense they are trying to disprove it. All they are doing is searching for facts and trying to explain them with logical arguments and substantiated proof. If it happens to disprove something religion says, so be it. Evolution is practically proven at this stage and the only real option you have (at least if you have a logical, open mind) is to incorporate this into your beliefs. The problem with it however, is that it happens over such a long time, it is hard to be noticed by us.

    I pose this idea to you. What if god's plan was initially to make humans, but he used the process of evolution to do it. Surely such an omnipotent being would find such a task simple. What if his "design" was for a further more complete human down the line that we are just a stepping stone to. What if god just likes to see life change instead of just remaining stagnant. What makes us so much better than animals? Our intelligence? We're just lucky we managed to develop it first, otherwise we would have been wiped out. In my mind we are no different than animals.

    I don't believe in a god, but it just seems disappointing to me when religious people clash with science. The two are fundamentally separate, it is possible to practice both. However, unlike religion, science must be accepted as a whole as it is all based on physical evidence.
     
         

  22. #47
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    Re: Evolution. Were we really envolve from monkeys?

    Evolution's explanation for how life arose and increased in complexity is totally bankrupt and devoid of real science. It is a religious, faith belief, and nothing more.
     
         

  23. #48
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    Re: Evolution. Were we really envolve from monkeys?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pein67 View Post
    Evolution's explanation for how life arose and increased in complexity is totally bankrupt and devoid of real science. It is a religious, faith belief, and nothing more.
    How, exactly, are you religious if you believe in Evolution?
     
         

  24. #49
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    Re: Evolution. Were we really envolve from monkeys?

    Quote Originally Posted by Germanicus View Post
    If I may; the adaptation you're addressing is known as descent with modification, which supports the theory of natural selection that was a main staple of Darwin's theory. Adaptations such as that are a response to environmental stimuli, which made those traits best suited to the conditions around them.

    And whether or not you're Christian makes almost no difference whatsoever. If God did indeed create life, why is it so important that he specifically made man as man? Why not make man through a prolonged, practiced experiment in which he acquires the best traits for his individual sector by living through the conditions that surround them...say, through evolution.
    A very interesting question and good points are raised. It's people like this we need more, whether an individual is christian, muslim, jewish, atheist, or anything else for that matter.

    Anyway, getting to the point, I wouldn't be able to say why God created Adam as a man and not through millions of years through evolution. I don't know why God in the bible created life as we know it without the use of evolution. Maybe because death didn't exist before Adam and Eve's sin and fall from perfection. Logically, it raises the point by, most commonly, atheists who say why the descendants of Adam and Eve also require forgiveness and are just as guilty as Adam and Eve. It's a good and fair question to ask. Now, I don't claim to know everything, but here's what I do think. Since Adam and Eve sinned, their perfect bodies "fell" from perfection and became imperfect. As we know from the study of genetics, Adam and Eve's children inhereited that "imperfection" and that, if correct, explains why everyone needs forgiveness for that original sin. It's not something we did, but rather what we inherited because of Adam and Eve's imperfection and fall because we all have Adam and Eve's DNA, albeit just rearranged into a different order.
     
         

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    Re: Evolution. Were we really envolve from monkeys?

    It seems to me that the ongoing theme in this thread is that when people misunderstand Evolution, they tend to disagree with it.

    If you want to have an actual discussion on the merits of Evolution you need to actually know what it is first. Until then threads like this are a waste of everyone's time.
     
         

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