[Theory] Susano'o = Tsukuyomi + Amaterasu. Separate sharingan eyes gain the same ability.

[Chatte]

Ok, guys, I keep seeing this confusion over the Base for quite some time now about if for sure Susano'o requires Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu or not, it doesn't because Sasuke doesn't have Tsukuyomi etc.
You know all these kinds of speculations that circulate around the base.
So here I come with my theory.

1. Susano'o = Tsukuyomi + Amaterasu = Sasuke has Tsukuyomi!

Yes, he does. Why? Because as Kishi mentioned in the Databook, in order to obtain Susano'o, you need to have those two. But he didn't gave any indications about how strong it has to be or how weak. Just that you have to own it.

Now you'll say that Sasuke said that he got the Susano'o by obtaining the double Mangekyo.
Well, let me remind you once again, Tsukuyomi is a Magenkyo Sharingan genjutsu as stated by Itachi himself.

Now the fact that Itachi's Tsukuyomi was stronger, that's a different thing, but it doesn't have to mean that Sasuke doesn't have it and that it's just a mere genjutsu.

a) Sasuke's Tsukuyomi is weaker + it's not his style. Because it was Itachi's style to use Tsukuyomi, it doesn't mean it has to be his own.
b) Sasuke has Tsukuyomi otherwise he wouldn't be able to obtain Susano'o. But why is his Tsukuyomi different and looks like a genjutsu? Because he still hasn't mastered it the way Itachi did, he still can't control the time and space in his Tsukuyomi as Itachi, but, once again, this doesn't mean he doesn't have it.

Now probably you'll ask about Madara Tsukuyomi with one eye, I guess. Well, as Madara said, the answer to this is Hashi's DNA, again...
However, in my point of view it could've been a simple genjutsu, in order to explain better the Tsukuyomi genjutsu.
But Madara is a special case here.

Last but not least, let us not forget from where the Susano'o came. In the japaneese mythology, Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi were Susano'o's brothers. So by common logic, Susano'o wouldn't exist without "his brothers."

2. Sharingans in different hosts get the same power.

As we can see, we have pretty evident proof.

1. Shisui Uchiha -> One eye on Danzo => Kotoamatsukami
-> One eye on Itachi => Kotoamatsukami.
2. Obito Uchiha -> One eye on his own => Kamui
-> One eye on Kakashi => Kamui.

So, from here it's pretty safe to assume the fact that if the eyes aren't together, they don't develop different powers, they develop the same power on both of the hosts.

Hope I made myself clear and that all the questions have been answered.
However, if you're not clear on something, just let me know and I'll explain again.

[History]

is sasuke had tsukuyomi why did he say sharingan genjutsu instead of tsukuyomi? also madara hasnt shown amaterasu

[★Draconic]

nice theory

[Sexy Steel]

is sasuke had tsukuyomi why did he say sharingan genjutsu instead of tsukuyomi? also madara hasnt shown amaterasu

This pretty much my question also just because an uchiha uses genjutsu with their ms doesn't mean it is automatically tsukyomi.

[Mischeif Maker]

well this is a fail thread if i ever seen one haha

[Uchiha Legacy]

is sasuke had tsukuyomi why did he say sharingan genjutsu instead of tsukuyomi? also madara hasnt shown amaterasu

Why waste chakra?

Also Madara has not shown a lot of things.(ex. Rinnegan Techs)

[kam]

It's plausible

[Mischeif Maker]

Jutsu

Amaterasu

Binding Snake Glare Spell

Blaze Release Magatama (Manga only)

Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi

Body Flame Technique

Body Shedding

Chidori

Chidori Current

Chidori Senbon

Chidori Sharp Spear

Cursed Seal of Heaven

Demonic Illusion: Shackling Stakes Technique

Evil Releasing Method (Manga only)

Fire Release: Dragon Fire Technique

Fire Release: Great Dragon Fire Technique

Fire Release: Great Fireball Technique

Fire Release: Phoenix Sage Fire Technique

Genjutsu: Sharingan

Hidden Shadow Snake Hands

Iaidō

Kirin

Lion Combo

Manipulated Shuriken Technique

Manipulating Windmill Triple Blades

Pachinko Technique (Anime only)

Peregrine Falcon Drop (Anime only)

Sexy Technique

Shadow Shuriken Technique

Shadow of the Dancing Leaf

Shield of Black Flames

Strong Fist

Summoning Technique (Hawks, Snakes)

Summoning: Lightning Flash Blade Creation

Susanoo

Sword of Kusanagi: Chidori Katana

Tsukuyomi

[History]

Why waste chakra?

Also Madara has not shown a lot of things.(ex. Rinnegan Techs)

what chakra could be wasted hes edo

Sasuke have itachi eyes so he have tsukuyomi and he have amatarasu And if he dont have tsukuyomi what is his other power in his eye beside from amaterasu

well he gots sharingan genjutsu other eye power is blaze release

[kibaclaw]

I agree and ill add that the reason sasuke isn't as good at tsuko is because he is significantly better with amaterasu.

[Scryed]

In the Data Book it also says that Susanoo has Totsuka Blade and Yata Mirror. Does that mean all Susanoo's have it?

I'm not necessarily taking any side since i'm pretty much confused with the whole thing.

Though I did notice that Koto Amatsukami and Kamui actually work differently in each eye though they do seem to fall under the same technique.


Koto Amatsukami/Danzo-The way Danzo manipulated Mifune seemed to be different than a simple command. More like he manually manipulated him without Mifune noticing. Thinking it was on his own will.

Koto Amatsukami/Itachi's crow-The way this one seemed to work was by establishing a command on the target rather than manually controlling them.


Kamui/Kakashi-This one seems to be somewhat like Amaterasu in which whatever Kakashi looks at gets warped to Obito's dimension. Though it could serve as a defence during some occasions, it's more like an offensive technique. Technically the longranged part of Kamui.

Kamui/Obito-This one serves more as a defence rather than an offense but it still has some offensive purposes. Where the user could use Kamui on himself to send certain parts of the body, if not all of it, to Obito's dimension. Along with being able to absorb others if they're within range. The shortranged part of Kamui.

If both eyes are present though, then that'll practically allow you to unlock the technique's full potential which could also be what Madara meant.

[Desmodus]

Nope. Shisui was known for having a Komoakatsukami even before one of his eyes was taken by Danzo, so no, sorry.

And also, it has never been said that Sasuke has Tsukuyomi - when he was fighting against Kabuto, he used ordinary sharingan genjutsu where Itachi used used Tsukuyomi.

[Uchiha Legacy]

what chakra could be wasted hes edo

well he gots sharingan genjutsu other eye power is blaze release

I was speaking of Sasuke in the first line :sy:

Sharingan Genjutsu is not a MS technique, the MS genjutsu is called Tsukuyomi.

And if you believe one of his MS have Sharingan Genjutsu and the other has Blaze Release, which eye would have Amaterasu? :flaw:

[xXBlazinNinXx]

Is that really the combination you need to awaken the Susano'o? Cause I think Sasuke can't even use Tsukuyomi or he doesn't know how? Idk but I doubt he has it

[narutonish]

Ah I made an entirely opposite thread from this one :P

http://www.narutobase.net/forums/showthread.php?t=261163

[yondaime4]

Honestly, if people dont get it by now, they wont get it until it is spelled out in the manga.

nice theory though I agree 100%

[Klue]

The 3rd Databook was speaking from the perspective of Itachi. He awakened Tsukyomi and Amaterasu specifically, in his left and right eye, respectively.

A few months after the Databook's release, Sasuke used Susanoo and this is what he said: "Susanoo is the third power only those that awaken the Mangekyou in both eyes can use."

[Xaviour]

Amaterasu was implanted into Sasuke, everyone has different MS abilities except for the Sussano

[Draxus]

You 2nd theory is dumb. Shusui had KA in BOTH eyes before they were taken.

[thegame]

So here is my thoughts

I see you try to make this thread some sort of "proof" or "statement", well you cannot make such assumption with the evidence from the manga saying otherwise. I can only disagree with a lot of what you are saying. First I wanna say a bit about the databook:

Firstly using the databooks as evidence is just poor. Yes they are "said" to be made by Kishi, but how much work do people honestly believe he put into them? He got a tough job already, it is more likely that you would make another person write it. Besides the newest book is 3 years old, thus it can still be changed in the manga, which after all is the main factor.

So I cannot use evidence from Databooks as valid, and this case wont be the first that is possible to disprove. In the end, we the fans, probably knows more about what is in the manga than even Kishi himself. Think about how many chapters he made. He doesn't have time to look through them a lot, and he has to use a lot of work on planning the future. He can't possibly remember every little detail about a jutsu.

We know for a fact that Sasuke has Amaterasu and so does Itachi, the tsukuyomi seems to differ, and no direct proof exists that Sasuke has tsukuyomi, though it appears he has something which is weaker - according to Danzo, but that doesn't matter, lets just say he has it. He also used something on Bee, but clearly not at the level of tsukuyomi, but it appears to be more like the one he used on Shi. A simply paralyzing genjutsu, though I can't remember if he used MS when he used it on Bee, but it was not MS on Shi though. Never mind.

Amaterasu was given to Sasuke by Itachi. That is why it is placed in his left eye as he awoke MS. He gives it to him here:

And as Itachis is clearly from his right eye:

This proves the relation between them isn't completely the same.. Some MS happens to awake the same ability, yes, as you said:

1. Shisui Uchiha -> One eye on Danzo => Kotoamatsukami
-> One eye on Itachi => Kotoamatsukami.
2. Obito Uchiha -> One eye on his own => Kamui
-> One eye on Kakashi => Kamui.

But that only goes for Shisuis - also as you said. Kakashis and Obitos are very different from Shisuis eyes. But as I see it Obitos eyes are more like Itachis eyes, so to me this evidence is kind of invalid for the purpose, though I cannot disprove it completely. Itachi got amaterasu and tsukuyomi which means the sun and the moon:

Which means they are opposite of eachother. You could say they bring forth a great amount of physical damange and mental damage, which is 2 very different usabilities, though in the end it has the same cause. This goes for Obitos eyes as well.

I believe you need this in order to awaken Susano, thus even Obito should be able to use it, if he had both his eyes. However, this might not even be true. Susano can even remain active or be activated without having your sharingan activated, so it might not even be related to the eyes, though I doubt this due to statements in the manga. So never mind it.

Now lets go to where my main case lies. Uchiha Madara clearly has not shown to be capable of using either Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi. If he had I'm of the believe Kishi would have shown us. Madara had countless of options to use either, but he didn't and this alone should be enough to say that you don't need amaterasu and tsukuyomi to awaken susanoo.

As I would go even further to say that the best proof would be that their Susanos are different!!! The way they look, as well as their usabilities and strength. Thus I can't really see that they must be related to certain jutsu as well. It seems more likely to be as I said that the jutsu has to be connected, but yet opposite of eachother. Like the moon and the sun.

A short note to that evidence, it is only the meaning I used, not the connection in which Itachi said it, since that would be a completely different debate, thus it could have 2 meanings. Either Kisame knew that Itachi had Susano, and he wondered why he didn't use it to take out Jiraya, but Itachi said he should spare it.

Or

He was implying that they still had plenty of time to capture Naruto (which is the most likely), but yet weird that he is referring to the moon and the sun, since (I suppose?) they didn't know about the moons eye plan. Though it is not impossible since they both knew about Madara (Obito).

[neudarkness]

hay
sasuke used tsukuyomi vs bee.
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/413/8
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/413/9
he hold his right eye to concentrate his left eye for tsukuyomi.

(itachi closed his right eye to do tsukuyomi on the left i think this is the same)
And i think sasuke needs his hands becuase he cant controll this power because it was new for him

sorry for bad english ^^.

[thegame]

hay
sasuke used tsukuyomi vs bee.
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/413/8
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/413/9
he hold his right eye to concentrate his left eye for tsukuyomi.

(itachi closed his right eye to do tsukuyomi on the left i think this is the same)
And i think sasuke needs his hands becuase he cant controll this power because it was new for him

sorry for bad english ^^.

Perhaps, but it doesn't really prove anything. It's also possible to use a standard paralyzing genjutsu with MS, and it says Tsukuyomi nowhere xD but then again he holds his hand as to control it, as you say so perhaps it's just very weak.

[neudarkness]

Perhaps, but it doesn't really prove anything. It's also possible to use a standard paralyzing genjutsu with MS, and it says Tsukuyomi nowhere xD but then again he holds his hand as to control it, as you say so perhaps it's just very weak.

look at the colours this are the same colours as itachis tsukuyomi.
And how i said he uses his left eye to perform it.

[thegame]

look at the colours this are the same colours as itachis tsukuyomi.
And how i said he uses his left eye to perform it.

No his Tsukuyomi is clearly used by his right eye

But yeah colors etc, yet it can't be called tsukuyomi when it is at the level of a standard paralyzing genjutsu, which we see him perform later on Shi at kage meeting, and here he has 3 tomoe to use it..

[BONTUL]

Please tell us something new..:shrug: