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  1. #51
    Member AngryRock's Avatar
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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    While I do not think Kakuzu is better than Kisame, he does have the advantage in this battle. Few people realize this but Kakuzu battled many opponents in one day.(same with Hidan) It took multiple skilled ninjas to beat him so saying he lost to Naruto is incorrect. Especially since that rasengan can pretty much 1 hit KO any ninja.

    Kisame while powerful is only limited to one nature type and while he has shown to make the biggest environmental change in battle, it still would not be enough against Kakuzu. Kisame might have a chance if he gets him in the giant water ball cage tech but all Kakuzu would need to do is stretch his threads out of the water ball and release himself.

    I give the battle to Kakuzu even though I like Kisame so much.
     
         

  2. #52
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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    Quote Originally Posted by Vinnie View Post
    AGREE!!! 100% ... this would have made the best Akatsuki treachery fights ever, if Kakuzu didn't get taken down.

    Kisame is one powerful dude and he really knows the difference between fighting Taijutsu and Ninjutsu, and his chakra is off the charts. He's an incredible swordsman and has more water powers than every freaking character in the Aquaman Series, his elemental powers are the top of any single element user except maybe the third Raikage, and he's a monster.

    But what most people seem to forget is how much it took to take down Kakuzu and you can't just pummel someone like him to finish him off, each one of his hearts required a precise strike to kill him plus it took 5 Chounin, 2 Jounin, Naruto, a reversal of Hidan's Jashin Judgement Jutsu, and a direct hit with Rasenshuriken and even after that he didn't die Kakashi saw he was alive had to walk over and while Kakuzu was immobilized from the injuries of Rasenshuriken stabbed his last 2 hearts.

    Not only is Kakuzu tough but he has the widest variety in elemental abilities he can cast many different elemental jutsu simultaneously. Not only does he have his 4 black heart creatures but he's incredibly dangerous in close range; super hardened body, bursts of speed and strength, medium range melee attacks, and snaring techniques that can come from his hands or chest. Plus when he isn't remotely using his black heart creatures he can use their heads for multiple individual elemental attacks or more powerful combined elemental attacks and can switch from a standing gunner style to a wide range aerial attacker.

    Really in this fight Kakuzu wins Mid/Mid-High Difficulty. The real difference is the versatility of their powers not only in elements but styles of attack and strategy.
    Now this is what i wanted to see, i'll invite some people to debate for Kisame, now that i'm free and am ready for an all out debate
     
         

  3. #53
    God of Wood O_O HashiramaDescendant's Avatar
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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    I agree.
    There are many factors in which Kakuzu could best Kisame, but it would be a close battle.
    + rep if I can give it to you again.
     
         

  4. #54
    Senior Member raju22's Avatar
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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    Quote Originally Posted by slaton02 View Post
    You think Kakuzu's heart would intimidate Kisame? 30% chakra clone took on team Guy. a 360 swing of samehada will absorb the ninjutsu why are you not getting this? It absorbed 3 tails worth of pure bijuu chakra and you think it can't absorb Kakuzu's ninjutsu? plz. do you think Kisame is slow/ he has a 4 in speed as well. Since when could Kakuzu breathe under water?
    1. how does kauzu deal with fusion Kisame?
    2. how does he deal with GSM
    3. if knocked under water how does he survive 1000 sharks?
    4. if Kisamehada gets close how can he last with chakra being drain?Kakuzu doesn't have tailed beast lvl chakra
    plz answer these
    First of all i suggest you do some digging on Samehadhas chakra absorbing quality's, it never tanked a high lvl ninjutsu and absorbed it, Itachi's fireball was an D rank jutsu and even then Samehadha could not fully absorb it, and Kakuzu's Raiton gian is a B lvl jutsu which took Kakashi who is also a Raiton user, 2 raikiri to nullify and burned his gloves and bandages i would certainly love to see Samehadha tanking that jutsu.

    1-0 Samehadha and Kisame was shown to absorb chakra by direct physical contact and in this case Kakuzu is better fighter then kisame.

    2-GSM?
    well if it is the shark bullet then you must know it travels in a streight line and leaves Kiisame vulnerable for a behind Attack.

    3-Kisame can trap only one person in his water dome because water moves with him, what he is gonna do if Kakuzu and all of his hearts start running in opposite directions, he can only follow one, if he goes after Kakuzu, then there are 4 hearts with different elements to blast him and Kakuzu inside the water, if he goes after a heart then there are 3 hearts and Kakuzu himself is out side of water and they will blast him to death, either way Kakuzu would get a shark fin soup at the cost of one heart.

    4-getting close to Kakuzu is the tricky part here Kakashi with his Sharingan could not see his threads how does Kisame gonna see them? and do not forget we have 4 different hearts moving from four directions.
     
         
    Last edited by raju22; 10-26-2012 at 08:22 PM.

  5. #55
    Hyōton KGB Kakuzu's Avatar
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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sazzi View Post
    one small correction... at the begining u say kakuzu can use four of five of the elements... when actually he can use all five...
    Well the problem is if I remember correctly, he only shows the use of a water technique in the anime.

    OT: I agree...sure it doesn't sound very convincing considering my name has Kakuzu in it...
    Kisame's has only been seen using water techs. Kakuzu has the earth element which is the counter to water. His earth spear prevents all damage from any of his water techs.

    With his jutsus ineffective he must rely on Kenjutu. The problem is that Kakuzu's limbs are all reattachable. He can use the earth spear tech to stop Sameheda's force, and even if the sword absorbs his technique, Kakuzu's limbs are all capable of being reattsched and csn even take a heart and move on their own! At the same time Kakuzu is skilled at Kakashi's level in taijutsu. At this same time he must dodge all of Kakuzu's masks.

    Kisame's biggest advantages are regeneration, huge chakra, and fusion mode. Regeneration makes normally fatal attacks like a crushed chest survivable, insane chakra means he has endurance on the maximum scale, and fusion mode makes it so he csn use both of those advantsges without the risk of losing his sword.

    Some people would say that Kisame's water prision is an advantage, but is in fact a desth sentence. If Kisame uses that technique the masks csn escape while the lightning mask uses electricity on the water unfilled both Kakuzu and Kisame are dead and then give up the heart. Collecting another heart isn't hard. Also he could bring both himself and Kisame to best desth and then simply take Kisame's heart!

    Kisame's big three advantages makes it an incredibly hard fight that goes either way, but Kakuzu's elemental advantages and unique body style gives him the advantage.

    Also to those saying that Sameheda takes all of Kakuzu's techs, It was shown the sword is weak against fire and has a limit with head v2 mode. Kakuzu has wind enhanced fire on a large scale which with time is greater forms of both of those
     
         

  6. #56
    *Fear The Sharingan* itachifan7's Avatar
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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    i consider them as equals
     
         

  7. #57
    The Unbiased one slaton02's Avatar
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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    Quote Originally Posted by raju22 View Post
    First of all i suggest you do some digging on Samehadhas chakra absorbing quality's, it never tanked a high lvl ninjutsu and absorbed it, Itachi's fireball was an D rank jutsu and even then Samehadha could not fully absorb it, and Kakuzu's Raiton gian is a B lvl jutsu which took Kakashi who is also a Raiton user, 2 raikiri to nullify and burned his gloves and bandages i would certainly love to see Samehadha tanking that jutsu.

    1-0 Samehadha and Kisame was shown to absorb chakra by direct physical contact and in this case Kakuzu is better fighter then kisame.

    2-GSM?
    well if it is the shark bullet then you must know it travels in a streight line and leaves Kiisame vulnerable for a behind Attack.

    3-Kisame can trap only one person in his water dome because water moves with him, what he is gonna do if Kakuzu and all of his hearts start running in opposite directions, he can only follow one, if he goes after Kakuzu, then there are 4 hearts with different elements to blast him and Kakuzu inside the water, if he goes after a heart then there are 3 hearts and Kakuzu himself is out side of water and they will blast him to death, either way Kakuzu would get a shark fin soup at the cost of one heart.

    4-getting close to Kakuzu is the tricky part here Kakashi with his Sharingan could not see his threads how does Kisame gonna see them? and do not forget we have 4 different hearts moving from four directions.
    1-Why wouldn't samehada absorb other ninjutsu? It wouldn't make sense chakra is chakra simple as that and it can absorb fireballs and 3tails worth of chakra at a time that's all we need to know, so what would change here? Kakuzu's ninjutsu will get absorbed.

    2-Ha GSM is HUGE simple as that if his heart are the same distance they were in his fight with Kakashi they was getting caught in it and well as him.

    3- I guess you forgot Kisame can make clones and summon 1000 sharks huh?

    4- if Kakuzu is underwater kisame will have no trouble closing the distance just ask Killer Bee.
     
         
    Last edited by slaton02; 10-26-2012 at 08:35 PM.

  8. #58
    Negative Knight's Avatar
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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    Quote Originally Posted by slaton02 View Post
    1-Why wouldn't samehada absorb other ninjutsu? It wouldn't make sense chakra is chakra simple as that and it can absorb 3tails worth at a time that's all we need to know. Kakuzu's ninjutsu will get absorbed

    2-Ha GSM is HUGE simple as that if his heart are the same distance they were in his fight with Kakashi they was getting caught in it and well as him.

    3- I guess you forgot Kisame can make clones and summon 1000 sharks huh?

    4- if Kakuzu is underwater kisame will have no trouble closing the distance just ask Killer Bee.
    1) When Samehada attempted to absorb Itachi's D Rank Katon the most it could do was cut it in half and make the attack slightly smaller. As many have mentioned its not like a bottomless abyss of absorption, but rather a chakra processing machine that has to eat the chakra itself.

    2) I've already explained this in my thread, Check the 3rd Section of "Why Kakuzu could Overcome Kisame in a 1 vs 1"

    3) Kisame would need a water source to summon 1000 sharks, that is how he used the technique in the fight against Guy Sensei

    4) Again, check my 3rd Section, it has a Counter to the Water Dome as well.
     
         

  9. #59
    Senior Member raju22's Avatar
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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    Quote Originally Posted by slaton02 View Post
    1-Why wouldn't samehada absorb other ninjutsu? It wouldn't make sense chakra is chakra simple as that and it can absorb fireballs and 3tails worth of chakra at a time that's all we need to know, so what would change here? Kakuzu's ninjutsu will get absorbed.

    2-Ha GSM is HUGE simple as that if his heart are the same distance they were in his fight with Kakashi they was getting caught in it and well as him.

    3- I guess you forgot Kisame can make clones and summon 1000 sharks huh?

    4- if Kakuzu is underwater kisame will have no trouble closing the distance just ask Killer Bee.

    1-Samehadha and Kisame absorbed chakra from a person but when it comes to absorbing Ninjutsu it is weak.

    2-i said if they start running in opposite direction then what is Kisame gonna do and they run very fast in Naruto.

    3- Kakuzu can detach his body parts at will so what are those sharks gonaa eat?, if he makes clones he will weaken himself.

    4- Kakuzu would not mind getting killed with Kisame since he can be killed 4 times, and by the time kisame kills him the other hearts would be blasting him from outside the dome.
     
         

  10. #60
    Hyōton KGB Kakuzu's Avatar
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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    Quote Originally Posted by itachifan7 View Post
    i consider them as equals
    I would agree. They are both equal in terms of strength against an opponent, but it just happens that Kakuzu has more advantages against Kisame, and that is mostly because of Kisame's use of the water element!!! I have always wanted to see what would happen if they fought together! Kisame and Kakuzu together have all of the elements together. Also Kisame's calm and agreeable demeanor would have meant he would work well with Kakuzu
     
         

  11. #61
    The Unbiased one slaton02's Avatar
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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    Quote Originally Posted by Negative Knight View Post
    1) When Samehada attempted to absorb Itachi's D Rank Katon the most it could do was cut it in half and make the attack slightly smaller. As many have mentioned its not like a bottomless abyss of absorption, but rather a chakra processing machine that has to eat the chakra itself.

    2) I've already explained this in my thread, Check the 3rd Section of "Why Kakuzu could Overcome Kisame in a 1 vs 1"

    3) Kisame would need a water source to summon 1000 sharks, that is how he used the technique in the fight against Guy Sensei

    4) Again, check my 3rd Section, it has a Counter to the Water Dome as well.
    :sy: Kisame can create his own water do you even know Kisame? lol that something everyone knows this.
    I'll reread your thread. and it split the fireball because that is the part that connected with samehade
    Quote Originally Posted by raju22 View Post
    1-Samehadha and Kisame absorbed chakra from a person but when it comes to absorbing Ninjutsu it is weak.

    2-i said if they start running in opposite direction then what is Kisame gonna do and they run very fast in Naruto.

    3- Kakuzu can detach his body parts at will so what are those sharks gonaa eat?, if he makes clones he will weaken himself.

    4- Kakuzu would not mind getting killed with Kisame since he can be killed 4 times, and by the time kisame kills him the other hearts would be blasting him from outside the dome.
    How is it weak at absorbing ninjutsu? You have 0 proof of this.
    Not sure what you mean but if your talking about the hearts, like I said Kisame makes clones. He has a ton of chakra making clones will not weaken him. if you think 100+ sharks can't eat Kakuzu then your foolish, Kisame can target the hearts. Did you know that?

    I mean cmon people you guys are say idiotic things now. I gtg I'll check back when I'm done
     
         

  12. #62
    Senior Member raju22's Avatar
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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    Quote Originally Posted by slaton02 View Post
    :sy: Kisame can create his own water do you even know Kisame? lol that something everyone knows this.
    I'll reread your thread. and it split the fireball because that is the part that connected with samehade
    How is it weak at absorbing ninjutsu? You have 0 proof of this.
    Not sure what you mean but if your talking about the hearts, like I said Kisame makes clones. He has a ton of chakra making clones will not weaken him. if you think 100+ sharks can't eat Kakuzu then your foolish, Kisame can target the hearts. Did you know that?

    I mean cmon people you guys are say idiotic things now. I gtg I'll check back when I'm done

    Samehadha could not absorb a D rank jutsu how it is gonna absorb the higher lvl.

    Educate yourself a little before calling people idiots.
     
         

  13. #63
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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    Okay Negative I promised you I would post in this thread supporting Kisame. Now that I read your entire thread, it does seem like it would be a very close fight that could go either way high difficulty. Nevertheless, I still think Kisame would win.

    Well let's start correcting the fallacy that raiton>suiton. Remember when Mei used her water dragon jutsu which the Raikage electrified? It did not electrocute Mei in anyway so I doubt Kisame would be fried. Also samehada should have no trouble absorbing gian as I don't think it is an attack with too much chakra nor is it a fire release attack.

    Also I highly disagree when you said that Kakuzu is immune to wind techniques. He is immune to earth based and physical attacks but he is only somewhat resistant to wind techniques. Wind has a high power of slicing and top tier wind users will be able to get through doton domu IMO just like Naruto did with FRS.

    Anyway I'm quite sure that Kisame water attacks will douse any and all of Kakuzu's flames. Kisame won't get overwhelmed by Kakuzu's fire attack because Yamato and Naruto were able to dispel the flames and I think Kisame, being the most powerful suiton user in the manga won't get overwhelmed. This will mean that Kakuzu won't be able to overwhelm Kisame because Kakuzu's raiton is absorbed and the katon/fuuton combo is countered by a more powerful suiton.

    As for the earth grudge threads, well I think that would be problematic but Kisame could use samehada to cut them up as he is a top tier swordsman. Kisame also has super human strength so he should be able to break them before Kakuzu manages to steal a heart.

    I must admit that Kisame has absolutely nothing on doton domu but it isn't like Kakuzu can maintain the jutsu forever. It requires Kakuzu to use a constant amount of chakra so eventually, Kakuzu's chakra supplies will diminish allowing Kisame to finish him off. Although this will be a long fought battle since Kakuzu is a stamina beast and didn't show any signs of exhaustion unlike Kakashi and Shikamaru who became exhausted quite easily despite the fact that Kakuzu's ninjutsu seems more chakra taxing to me.

    I think Kisame has better taijutsu compared to Kakuzu but neither will be able to do a significant amount of damage against the other because of doton domu and samehada regeneration. However, a CQC bout will only favour Kisame because he will be able to absorb Kakuzu's chakra.

    Kisame's wide AoE attacks should allow him to attack multiple hearts at once as well as counter the massive elemental blasts from Kakuzu especially if samehada weakens Kakuzu's techniques. http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Water_R...Feeding_Sharks
    Kisame's great shark bullet technique will allow his attack to become stronger and stronger as it absorbs the opponents ninjutsu thereby allowing his own attack to use the power of Kakuzu's attack and divert the full force against his own opponent.

    You make a good point that is was especially hard for Kakashi to take down Kakuzu's hearts on his own but this is because Kakashi is a lot weaker than Kisame, especially during that arc.

    Still if Kakuzu manages to steal Kisame's heart, Kisame won't be able to regenerate thus the win would go to Kakuzu. Although I think that Kisame can avoid the black threads by ripping them apart via samehada and super strength. Kisame's sensory abilities and reflexes while fused in samehada should not be underrated either and I think he should be able to avoid those threads entirely if he fuses.
     
         

  14. #64
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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    Quote Originally Posted by slaton02 View Post
    :sy: Kisame can create his own water do you even know Kisame? lol that something everyone knows this.
    I'll reread your thread. and it split the fireball because that is the part that connected with samehade
    How is it weak at absorbing ninjutsu? You have 0 proof of this.
    Not sure what you mean but if your talking about the hearts, like I said Kisame makes clones. He has a ton of chakra making clones will not weaken him. if you think 100+ sharks can't eat Kakuzu then your foolish, Kisame can target the hearts. Did you know that?

    I mean cmon people you guys are say idiotic things now. I gtg I'll check back when I'm done
    The 1000 sharks need a stable water source, summoning water from his mouth would last for a little while and then absorb into the ground. Not a viable source at all.
     
         

  15. #65
    Simple Logic TheCloudsBlackLightning's Avatar
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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    I say Kisame.
    -Kisame has way more stamina
    -Every jutsu Kakuzu uses potientially makes Kisame stronger.
    -Close Combat theyre pretty even but Kisame has samehada which absorbs chakra.
    -Kakuzu has no real counter to Super Water Shark Bomb.
     
         

  16. #66
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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    Quote Originally Posted by Icelerate View Post
    Okay Negative I promised you I would post in this thread supporting Kisame. Now that I read your entire thread, it does seem like it would be a very close fight that could go either way high difficulty. Nevertheless, I still think Kisame would win.

    Well let's start correcting the fallacy that raiton>suiton. Remember when Mei used her water dragon jutsu which the Raikage electrified? It did not electrocute Mei in anyway so I doubt Kisame would be fried. Also samehada should have no trouble absorbing gian as I don't think it is an attack with too much chakra nor is it a fire release attack.

    Also I highly disagree when you said that Kakuzu is immune to wind techniques. He is immune to earth based and physical attacks but he is only somewhat resistant to wind techniques. Wind has a high power of slicing and top tier wind users will be able to get through doton domu IMO just like Naruto did with FRS.

    Anyway I'm quite sure that Kisame water attacks will douse any and all of Kakuzu's flames. Kisame won't get overwhelmed by Kakuzu's fire attack because Yamato and Naruto were able to dispel the flames and I think Kisame, being the most powerful suiton user in the manga won't get overwhelmed. This will mean that Kakuzu won't be able to overwhelm Kisame because Kakuzu's raiton is absorbed and the katon/fuuton combo is countered by a more powerful suiton.

    As for the earth grudge threads, well I think that would be problematic but Kisame could use samehada to cut them up as he is a top tier swordsman. Kisame also has super human strength so he should be able to break them before Kakuzu manages to steal a heart.

    I must admit that Kisame has absolutely nothing on doton domu but it isn't like Kakuzu can maintain the jutsu forever. It requires Kakuzu to use a constant amount of chakra so eventually, Kakuzu's chakra supplies will diminish allowing Kisame to finish him off. Although this will be a long fought battle since Kakuzu is a stamina beast and didn't show any signs of exhaustion unlike Kakashi and Shikamaru who became exhausted quite easily despite the fact that Kakuzu's ninjutsu seems more chakra taxing to me.

    I think Kisame has better taijutsu compared to Kakuzu but neither will be able to do a significant amount of damage against the other because of doton domu and samehada regeneration. However, a CQC bout will only favour Kisame because he will be able to absorb Kakuzu's chakra.

    Kisame's wide AoE attacks should allow him to attack multiple hearts at once as well as counter the massive elemental blasts from Kakuzu especially if samehada weakens Kakuzu's techniques. http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Water_R...Feeding_Sharks
    Kisame's great shark bullet technique will allow his attack to become stronger and stronger as it absorbs the opponents ninjutsu thereby allowing his own attack to use the power of Kakuzu's attack and divert the full force against his own opponent.

    You make a good point that is was especially hard for Kakashi to take down Kakuzu's hearts on his own but this is because Kakashi is a lot weaker than Kisame, especially during that arc.

    Still if Kakuzu manages to steal Kisame's heart, Kisame won't be able to regenerate thus the win would go to Kakuzu. Although I think that Kisame can avoid the black threads by ripping them apart via samehada and super strength. Kisame's sensory abilities and reflexes while fused in samehada should not be underrated either and I think he should be able to avoid those threads entirely if he fuses.
    This was the debate i was looking for, single handedly Ice, you've made my thread worth my effort.

    As to respond to your points, I've pointed out earlier that Samehada isn't comparable to the Preta Path in terms of its Ninjutsu absorption, as it takes in raw chakra and can be overwhelmed. The sheer magnitude of Kakuzu's Wind Release Pressure Damage might be enough to overwhelm Samehada in size alone, due to it having to be processed by the sentient sword and not being a "blink of an eye" occurrence.

    Raiton isn't stronger than Suiton, but the user doesn't necessarily gain immunity to the element, if Kisame were completely covered into water from a previous technique e.g. Water Dome Prison, he would conduct electricity much more efficiently and it would become a potentially lethal offensive on Kakuzu's part.

    Whilst i agree Kisame could potentially cut the threads with Samehada but the sheer amount of attacks Kakuzu could make in the same time interval would undoubtedly overwhelm Kisame. Hardening himself with Doton Domu is another method that could be used once Kakuzu realizes that he intends to cuts his threads. Kisame's super strength is probably on a level equal to Kakuzu's own physical prowess, he was able to stop a punch from Chouji with relative ease and break a iron gate with a single punch.

    You raise a good point on Kakuzu's Doton Domu, but Kakuzu has shown slight and efficient use of this technique without even slight signs of exhaustion, as you mentioned earlier.

    If Kakuzu was indeed outmatched in a close combat confrontation, then his Earth Grudge Fear Transformation v1 would definitely tip the balance in his favour. In this mode his dark threads are far less exposed and so can't be cut as easily as Kisame would hope, he can use Elemental Blasts from his merged masks remotely, has a considerable level speed when transformed and his own limbs become much more retractable.

    Great Shark Water Bullet leaves Kisame open to attacks, Kakuzu's masks which can both be separated from him and are capable of flight, could attack Kisame from behind to either dispel the attack altogether or deal considerable damage to Kisame.

    Being logical, i don't see a definitive method of Kisame winning this match, the lack of lethality about the water element and Kisame's kenjutsu being chakra absorption based means it becomes increasingly difficult for him to win this match.
     
         

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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    Quote Originally Posted by Icelerate View Post
    Okay Negative I promised you I would post in this thread supporting Kisame. Now that I read your entire thread, it does seem like it would be a very close fight that could go either way high difficulty. Nevertheless, I still think Kisame would win.

    Well let's start correcting the fallacy that raiton>suiton. Remember when Mei used her water dragon jutsu which the Raikage electrified? It did not electrocute Mei in anyway so I doubt Kisame would be fried. Also samehada should have no trouble absorbing gian as I don't think it is an attack with too much chakra nor is it a fire release attack.

    Also I highly disagree when you said that Kakuzu is immune to wind techniques. He is immune to earth based and physical attacks but he is only somewhat resistant to wind techniques. Wind has a high power of slicing and top tier wind users will be able to get through doton domu IMO just like Naruto did with FRS.

    Anyway I'm quite sure that Kisame water attacks will douse any and all of Kakuzu's flames. Kisame won't get overwhelmed by Kakuzu's fire attack because Yamato and Naruto were able to dispel the flames and I think Kisame, being the most powerful suiton user in the manga won't get overwhelmed. This will mean that Kakuzu won't be able to overwhelm Kisame because Kakuzu's raiton is absorbed and the katon/fuuton combo is countered by a more powerful suiton.

    As for the earth grudge threads, well I think that would be problematic but Kisame could use samehada to cut them up as he is a top tier swordsman. Kisame also has super human strength so he should be able to break them before Kakuzu manages to steal a heart.

    I must admit that Kisame has absolutely nothing on doton domu but it isn't like Kakuzu can maintain the jutsu forever. It requires Kakuzu to use a constant amount of chakra so eventually, Kakuzu's chakra supplies will diminish allowing Kisame to finish him off. Although this will be a long fought battle since Kakuzu is a stamina beast and didn't show any signs of exhaustion unlike Kakashi and Shikamaru who became exhausted quite easily despite the fact that Kakuzu's ninjutsu seems more chakra taxing to me.

    I think Kisame has better taijutsu compared to Kakuzu but neither will be able to do a significant amount of damage against the other because of doton domu and samehada regeneration. However, a CQC bout will only favour Kisame because he will be able to absorb Kakuzu's chakra.

    Kisame's wide AoE attacks should allow him to attack multiple hearts at once as well as counter the massive elemental blasts from Kakuzu especially if samehada weakens Kakuzu's techniques. http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Water_R...Feeding_Sharks
    Kisame's great shark bullet technique will allow his attack to become stronger and stronger as it absorbs the opponents ninjutsu thereby allowing his own attack to use the power of Kakuzu's attack and divert the full force against his own opponent.

    You make a good point that is was especially hard for Kakashi to take down Kakuzu's hearts on his own but this is because Kakashi is a lot weaker than Kisame, especially during that arc.

    Still if Kakuzu manages to steal Kisame's heart, Kisame won't be able to regenerate thus the win would go to Kakuzu. Although I think that Kisame can avoid the black threads by ripping them apart via samehada and super strength. Kisame's sensory abilities and reflexes while fused in samehada should not be underrated either and I think he should be able to avoid those threads entirely if he fuses.
    1-Raiton Gian is a very high lvl attack for Samehadha to absorb as shown in the Manga it can not absorb a painful burning of a d rank Katon jutsu and Raiton gian is a concentrated beam of electricity which generates enough power to even burn Kakashis hand gloves and Kakashi uses Raiton in his hand without any damage so Kisame would get fried by it and if he is in water and the attack is directed towards him then he is dead.

    2-Kisame can not do any wind jutsu nor can he use Raiton so Kakuzu is safe from those attacks while using his Doton jutsu.

    3- You are correct in saying that Kisame is capable of countering Kakuzu's Katon based jutsu,but the problem is that he is fighting 5 people at the same time and each of them have a different elemental advantage.

    5- Kisame is far less experienced in combat when compared to Kakuzu so it will be a + point, and Kakuzu is smarter in the 2, Kakashi was only able avoid getting hit because of his Sharingan and Kisame dose not has that luxury.

    His shark bullet jutsu is good for countering a frontal attack but it makes his back wide open for attack, and one good hit is all Kakuzu is gonna need, also Kakuzu can detach his arms so he can maintain his distance.

    Kakuzu is also a chakra monster they have very little difference in this area, and he can make kisame use up his chakra by letting his hearts attack him and wait for the right opportunity to attack.
     
         

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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    Quote Originally Posted by raju22 View Post
    Samehadha could not absorb a D rank jutsu how it is gonna absorb the higher lvl.

    Educate yourself a little before calling people idiots.
    @bold convo over
     
         

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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    Very good job, you have some valid points but I will have to disagree.

    Overall if we were to put the 8 tails against Kakuzu who would win?

    I think that we could both agree that a tailed beast bomb would take him out (considering a rasenshuriken did the trick)

    If we want to compare the characters, we should look at their ultimate abilities.

    Kakuzu is more skilled in singling out a target and using his multiple "hearts" to use their elements in combination from impropertu angles in order to get an edge. His main ability is the fact that he cannot die from an ordinary attack and you must be able to destroy every heart in order to defeat him.

    Kisame on the other hand is a straight up fighter. He probably isn't as fast as Kakuzu (he is lugging around a gigantic sword after all) and even if Kakuzu isn't that fast then his separate hearts certainly are. So kakuzu gets a point there, however the main issue would be what Kakuzu would do if he used a combined/single elemental tech vs Kisame's Super Water Shark bomb. All of his own chakara/nature would be deflected right back at him and he would be blasted away.

    Additionally, Kisame may have the ability to block any type of elemental attack (eg katon no jitsu) not sure if it would work on that level though as we've only seen him suck the chakara out of a pen.
     
         

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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    Quote Originally Posted by slaton02 View Post
    @bold convo over

    Good for you.
     
         

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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    Quote Originally Posted by Negative Knight View Post
    This was the debate i was looking for, single handedly Ice, you've made my thread worth my effort.

    As to respond to your points, I've pointed out earlier that Samehada isn't comparable to the Preta Path in terms of its Ninjutsu absorption, as it takes in raw chakra and can be overwhelmed. The sheer magnitude of Kakuzu's Wind Release Pressure Damage might be enough to overwhelm Samehada in size alone, due to it having to be processed by the sentient sword and not being a "blink of an eye" occurrence.

    Raiton isn't stronger than Suiton, but the user doesn't necessarily gain immunity to the element, if Kisame were completely covered into water from a previous technique e.g. Water Dome Prison, he would conduct electricity much more efficiently and it would become a potentially lethal offensive on Kakuzu's part.

    Whilst i agree Kisame could potentially cut the threads with Samehada but the sheer amount of attacks Kakuzu could make in the same time interval would undoubtedly overwhelm Kisame. Hardening himself with Doton Domu is another method that could be used once Kakuzu realizes that he intends to cuts his threads. Kisame's super strength is probably on a level equal to Kakuzu's own physical prowess, he was able to stop a punch from Chouji with relative ease and break a iron gate with a single punch.

    You raise a good point on Kakuzu's Doton Domu, but Kakuzu has shown slight and efficient use of this technique without even slight signs of exhaustion, as you mentioned earlier.

    If Kakuzu was indeed outmatched in a close combat confrontation, then his Earth Grudge Fear Transformation v1 would definitely tip the balance in his favour. In this mode his dark threads are far less exposed and so can't be cut as easily as Kisame would hope, he can use Elemental Blasts from his merged masks remotely, has a considerable level speed when transformed and his own limbs become much more retractable.

    Great Shark Water Bullet leaves Kisame open to attacks, Kakuzu's masks which can both be separated from him and are capable of flight, could attack Kisame from behind to either dispel the attack altogether or deal considerable damage to Kisame.

    Being logical, i don't see a definitive method of Kisame winning this match, the lack of lethality about the water element and Kisame's kenjutsu being chakra absorption based means it becomes increasingly difficult for him to win this match.
    Knight you are a good debater but here you are back tracking I already counter your GSM leave kisame open comment. For some reason you think samehada can't absorb ninjutsu but I shouldn't be surprised because on a different thread you also thought Kisame fused can't absorb ninjutsu. We are not gonna see eye to eye because you have not countered my post with facts. Oh and btw that was a c rank fire tech if it matters
     
         
    Last edited by slaton02; 10-26-2012 at 09:35 PM.

  22. #72
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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    Only now i can see how much underrated kakuzu really is :D btw awesome thread+rep

    this fight is definitely tough and would be a very close call.a while ago i used to think of samehada`s absorption being godlike and being able to consume chakra and techniques so i instantly proclaimed kisame as a victor,but as you said it`s not like preta path.it cant absorb from afar and it has a limit to its absorption,so the outcome is definitely more complicated .

    IMO it all really depends on how the opponents decide to act from the start...if kisame instantly fuses with samehada therefore preventing samehada from being stolen or destroyed then he has a better chance to fend off kakuzu`s insanely powerful techniques,absorbing them(even if not entirely)...even if a certain kakuzu`s technique(partly absorbed from samehada) makes contact with kisame,kisame can then heal himself with chakra he has absorbed and therefore exhaust and outlasts kakuzu.

    on the other hand if kakuzu overwhelms kisame with his threads,masks and jutsu attacks,before kisame fuses with samehada then kakuzu has a high chance of removing samehada from the game therefore outmach kisame completely.....

    as i have seen you have mostly countered every attack kisame has against kakuzu,so i think kisame defending from all that shit kakuzu has in store for him and simply outlasting that much time while being unable to suck out kakuzu`s chakra because of kakuzu`s thread defense is just impossible,so i`ll have to agree with you and say kakuzu definitely has a higher chance of taking this....

    But i still think kisame would prevail :D solely because of his daikodan which can absorb the chakra and the jutsu kakuzu sends towards him and divert it onto kakuzu.....as to kisame being overwhelmed by those masks and threads while doing daikodan on one particular jutsu i think kisame would be able to create water clones and do his daikodans on all kakuzu`s jutsus at once if necessary so i think this would be kisame`s ultimate defense against kakuzu`s multiple jutsus plus kisame being able to fuse with samehada,drain jutsus that could potentially escape the daikodan,regenerate himself if necessary....making kakuzu a bit immobile with water dome no jutsu on top to escape from kakuzu`s tanking taijutsu....i think all this makes kisame superior so i go with kisame...so here it is...my opinion....peace! :D
     
         

  23. #73
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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    Quote Originally Posted by raju22 View Post
    1-Raiton Gian is a very high lvl attack for Samehadha to absorb as shown in the Manga it can not absorb a painful burning of a d rank Katon jutsu and Raiton gian is a concentrated beam of electricity which generates enough power to even burn Kakashis hand gloves and Kakashi uses Raiton in his hand without any damage so Kisame would get fried by it and if he is in water and the attack is directed towards him then he is dead.
    Raiton gian is not a katon technique. Samehada absorbed Bee's lightning techniques just fine. Kisame won't have a problem against lightning especially if he is inside his water dome which also has the ability to absorb chakra. Since when does raiton gian have more chakra than a tailed beast cloak?
    Quote Originally Posted by raju22 View Post
    2-Kisame can not do any wind jutsu nor can he use Raiton so Kakuzu is safe from those attacks while using his Doton jutsu.
    When did I say Kisame can not use wind jutsu or raiton? Kakuzu can't maintain doton domu forever.
    Quote Originally Posted by raju22 View Post
    3- You are correct in saying that Kisame is capable of countering Kakuzu's Katon based jutsu,but the problem is that he is fighting 5 people at the same time and each of them have a different elemental advantage.
    The good thing is Kisame has wide AoE attacks capable of fighting multiple opponents. It isn't like Kisame can get blind sided so easily if he fuses with samehada because of sensory abilities or he can go underground and let his clones do all the work.
    Quote Originally Posted by raju22 View Post
    5- Kisame is far less experienced in combat when compared to Kakuzu so it will be a + point, and Kakuzu is smarter in the 2, Kakashi was only able avoid getting hit because of his Sharingan and Kisame dose not has that luxury.
    I agree.
    Quote Originally Posted by raju22 View Post
    His shark bullet jutsu is good for countering a frontal attack but it makes his back wide open for attack, and one good hit is all Kakuzu is gonna need, also Kakuzu can detach his arms so he can maintain his distance.
    Good thing Kisame, with his tailed beast level of chakra can use plenty of suiton bunshins to watch his back.
    Quote Originally Posted by raju22 View Post
    Kakuzu is also a chakra monster they have very little difference in this area, and he can make kisame use up his chakra by letting his hearts attack him and wait for the right opportunity to attack.
    Kakuzu got a 4.5 in stamina unlike Kisame who got a perfect 5. Kisame has the hype of having tailed beast levels of chakra and Kakuzu hasn't got any hype that parallels this. Not only that, samehada will be constantly replenishing Kisame's chakra while Kakuzu's is being drained from not only the powerful jutsus he's using but also from samehada's natural chakra absorption abilities.
     
         

  24. #74
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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    Quote Originally Posted by slaton02 View Post
    Knight you are a good debater but here you are back tracking I already counter your GSM leave kisame open comment. For some reason you think samehada can't absorb ninjutsu but I shouldn't be surprised because on a different thread you also thought Kisame fused can't absorb ninjutsu. We are not gonna see eye to eye because you have not countered my post with facts.
    Thanks for the compliment, and i'm not downplaying Kisame, he's my favourite character.

    Alright, Samehada is shown here confronting Itachi's Fire Ball Jutsu, its natural course of order should be to absorb the ninjutsu immediately as you're claiming. However instead, it splits the flames in half, reduces the size of it but not completely and then shows signs of physical pain with the resulting flames still remaining on either side of Naruto and Killer Bee.

    I do agree that Kisame can absorb Ninjutsu but on a small scale as shown with Killer Bee's pencil. However he can also absorb from them if its directly from the person's body, as shown when his Eight Tails v2 Transformation was downgraded back to the Two-tails cloak.

    To further back up my points, Kisame claims here that "He can't absorb it all" showing that Samehada both has limit to amount it can process at any given time and a natural weakness to fire Ninjutsu. Kakuzu's Large Scale Fire and Wind infused blasts would be far too much for the sword to handle.
     
         
    Last edited by Negative Knight; 10-26-2012 at 09:40 PM.

  25. #75
    The Unbiased one slaton02's Avatar
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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    Quote Originally Posted by Negative Knight View Post
    Thanks for the compliment, and i'm not downplaying Kisame, he's my favourite character.

    Alright, Samehada is shown here confronting Itachi's Fire Ball Jutsu, its natural course of order should be to absorb the ninjutsu immediately as you're claiming. However instead, it splits the flames in half, reduces the size of it but not completely and then shows signs of physical pain with the resulting flames still remaining on either side of Naruto and Killer Bee.

    I do agree that Kisame can absorb Ninjutsu but on a small scale as shown with Killer Bee's pencil. However he can also absorb from them if its directly from the person's body, as shown when his Eight Tails v2 Transformation was downgraded back to the Two-tails cloak.

    To further back up my points, Kisame claims here that "He can't absorb it all" showing that Samehada both has limit to amount it can process at any given time and a natural weakness to fire Ninjutsu. Kakuzu's Large Scale Fire and Wind infused blasts would be far too much for the sword to handle.

    Alright
    see why are you back tracking? I already said these thing I never compared samehada to preta path it slit the fireball because it was wide and the edges wasn't in range to be absorbed. Samehada taste chakra Bee's chakra tasted like octopus as I said this before the flame obvious tasted hot, it didn't take any damage. I don't see what this has to do with anything since Kisame can make samehada absorb sooo.....

    Are you saying Kakuzu ninjutsu has 3tail worth of chakra? That what it sound like your saying....are you saying this????
     
         
    Last edited by slaton02; 10-26-2012 at 09:43 PM.

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