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  1. #76
    Simple Logic TheCloudsBlackLightning's Avatar
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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    Quote Originally Posted by Negative Knight View Post
    This was the debate i was looking for, single handedly Ice, you've made my thread worth my effort.

    As to respond to your points, I've pointed out earlier that Samehada isn't comparable to the Preta Path in terms of its Ninjutsu absorption, as it takes in raw chakra and can be overwhelmed. The sheer magnitude of Kakuzu's Wind Release Pressure Damage might be enough to overwhelm Samehada in size alone, due to it having to be processed by the sentient sword and not being a "blink of an eye" occurrence.

    Raiton isn't stronger than Suiton, but the user doesn't necessarily gain immunity to the element, if Kisame were completely covered into water from a previous technique e.g. Water Dome Prison, he would conduct electricity much more efficiently and it would become a potentially lethal offensive on Kakuzu's part.

    Whilst i agree Kisame could potentially cut the threads with Samehada but the sheer amount of attacks Kakuzu could make in the same time interval would undoubtedly overwhelm Kisame. Hardening himself with Doton Domu is another method that could be used once Kakuzu realizes that he intends to cuts his threads. Kisame's super strength is probably on a level equal to Kakuzu's own physical prowess, he was able to stop a punch from Chouji with relative ease and break a iron gate with a single punch.

    You raise a good point on Kakuzu's Doton Domu, but Kakuzu has shown slight and efficient use of this technique without even slight signs of exhaustion, as you mentioned earlier.

    If Kakuzu was indeed outmatched in a close combat confrontation, then his Earth Grudge Fear Transformation v1 would definitely tip the balance in his favour. In this mode his dark threads are far less exposed and so can't be cut as easily as Kisame would hope, he can use Elemental Blasts from his merged masks remotely, has a considerable level speed when transformed and his own limbs become much more retractable.

    Great Shark Water Bullet leaves Kisame open to attacks, Kakuzu's masks which can both be separated from him and are capable of flight, could attack Kisame from behind to either dispel the attack altogether or deal considerable damage to Kisame.

    Being logical, i don't see a definitive method of Kisame winning this match, the lack of lethality about the water element and Kisame's kenjutsu being chakra absorption based means it becomes increasingly difficult for him to win this match.
    At close combat they are equal. Kisame initially would have the advantage because of samehada giving him a longer reach and chakra absorption.
    However, Kakuzu can make his body as hard as diamond and detach his limbs giving him a greater reach than samehada. If Kakuzu detaches his limbs, he risks getting them cut off for a few moments because of samehada. So at close combat, Kisame and Kakuzu stalemates.

    Kakuzu has the 5 main chakra elements and they all can be countered by Kisame. Suiton=Katon. Large Scale Suiton=Katon+Futon combo. Kisame would use Exploding Water Shockwave to temporarly give him the geographical advantage. He could fuse this with 1000 hungry sharks and Kakuzu would be in trouble. However, Earth Grudge Fear would protect Kakuzu from the sharks and he destroy them with one punch each.
    In a elemental battle, they also stalement.

    It all comes down to Kisame using samehade fusion mode. In that state, Kisame can sense where Kakuzu and his hearts are at all times and easily destroy them one by one as they'll be seperated inside the water dome.
     
         

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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    Quote Originally Posted by slaton02 View Post
    Knight you are a good debater but here you are back tracking I already counter your GSM leave kisame open comment. For some reason you think samehada can't absorb ninjutsu but I shouldn't be surprised because on a different thread you also thought Kisame fused can't absorb ninjutsu. We are not gonna see eye to eye because you have not countered my post with facts. Oh and btw that was a c rank fire tech if it matters
    You're being too close minded here. Looking at what we've seen so far in the Manga, Samehada can absorb ninjutsu, but not nearly as well as the Preta Path. She can absorb chakra but that doesn't mean she has the power to negate all attacks...you might as well say that Yoroi can counter all ninjutsu just because he was able to absorb chakra via touch...
     
         

  3. #78
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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    Quote Originally Posted by slaton02 View Post
    see why are you back tracking? I already said these thing I never compared samehada to preta path it slit the fireball because it was wide and the edges wasn't in range to be absorbed.

    Are you saying Kakuzu ninjutsu has 3tail worth of chakra? That what it sound like your saying....are you saying this????
    Alright now that we have Samehada's capabilities sorted, anything else you want to raise ? I'll have to go for now, but when i get back i'll counter

    No way Kakuzu's ninjutsu has that much chakra, but the magnitude of the attack like you said is far too large for Samehada to logically absorb completely, from this factor alone Kisame's chakra absorption limit would be overwhelmed.
     
         

  4. #79
    Simple Logic TheCloudsBlackLightning's Avatar
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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    Also, if Kisame covers the terrain in water, Kakuzu potientally loses the abilities of his lightning heart. If Kakuzu uses False Darkness, he will end up shocking himself as he did when he fell for Shikamaru's trap. He also loses suiton(obviously).
     
         

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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCloudsBlackLightning View Post
    Also, if Kisame covers the terrain in water, Kakuzu potientally loses the abilities of his lightning heart. If Kakuzu uses False Darkness, he will end up shocking himself as he did when he fell for Shikamaru's trap. He also loses suiton(obviously).
    Kakuzu could release his hearts, have them all escape in different directions, at least one of them would get out of the dome, he'll have the electric one use an attack inside the dome, fry everything inside, and then the one who went outside reenters Kakuzu's body...just an idea, I'm aware of the fact that Kisame might use Clones, but you also can't forget the fact that Kakuzu was 91 years old, and had immense experience, he should ba able to find a way to beat Kisame, the guy survived a battle with Hashi ffs
     
         

  6. #81
    Simple Logic TheCloudsBlackLightning's Avatar
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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    Quote Originally Posted by Negative Knight View Post
    Alright now that we have Samehada's capabilities sorted, anything else you want to raise ? I'll have to go for now, but when i get back i'll counter

    No way Kakuzu's ninjutsu has that much chakra, but the magnitude of the attack like you said is far too large for Samehada to logically absorb completely, from this factor alone Kisame's chakra absorption limit would be overwhelmed.
    Well samehada can only absorb six tails worth of 8 tails chakra at a time while Bee was in Biju cloak v1. If Kakuzu uses more chakra than that in one attack then maybe he can do some damage.
    Bee used samehada to cut Itachi's fireball in half and it flipped out. It seems to have a weakness to fire.
     
         

  7. #82
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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    Quote Originally Posted by Icelerate View Post
    Raiton gian is not a katon technique. Samehada absorbed Bee's lightning techniques just fine. Kisame won't have a problem against lightning especially if he is inside his water dome which also has the ability to absorb chakra. Since when does raiton gian have more chakra than a tailed beast cloak?

    When did I say Kisame can not use wind jutsu or raiton? Kakuzu can't maintain doton domu forever.

    The good thing is Kisame has wide AoE attacks capable of fighting multiple opponents. It isn't like Kisame can get blind sided so easily if he fuses with samehada because of sensory abilities or he can go underground and let his clones do all the work.

    I agree.

    Good thing Kisame, with his tailed beast level of chakra can use plenty of suiton bunshins to watch his back.

    Kakuzu got a 4.5 in stamina unlike Kisame who got a perfect 5. Kisame has the hype of having tailed beast levels of chakra and Kakuzu hasn't got any hype that parallels this. Not only that, samehada will be constantly replenishing Kisame's chakra while Kakuzu's is being drained from not only the powerful jutsus he's using but also from samehada's natural chakra absorption abilities.

    Samehadha absorbed chakra from a pencil, same as Bee's chakra cloak, but when it comes to absorb a direct ninjutsu it flinched, thus could not absorb Itachi's fireball which is less powerful then Raiton gian, i know it is not fire but what is more powerful and painful a little fire or a concentrated light beam?.

    No i was saying that Kakuzu can use Doton whenever he wants since he is in no danger of being hit.

    He can create clones but they are not very powerful without using a real body as seen when Lee killed one with simple kicks and Neji killed 2 with his 64 palms attack, and also it would make Kisame weak.

    As i said they have not much difference in chakra lvl, and Kisame has more only because he can absorb chakra with or without Samehadha, Kakuzu used multiple high lvl elemental jutsu and was not even a little bit exhausted, and Kisame or Samehadha need to make contact with his body in order to replenish Kisames chakra which is very unlikely since Kakuzu was beating Kakashi like a child in a CQC match.

    One more thing which makes him immensely dangerous is his ability to die 4 times, it was shown very lightly in manga but upon careful thinking you will see that how useful it is , he can take certain risks in order to win, but Kisame on the other hand would be at a disadvantage if Kakuzu decides to charge right into him with the intent to keep him busy so other hearts can kill both of them.
     
         

  8. #83
    The Unbiased one slaton02's Avatar
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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    Quote Originally Posted by 6 paths View Post
    You're being too close minded here. Looking at what we've seen so far in the Manga, Samehada can absorb ninjutsu, but not nearly as well as the Preta Path. She can absorb chakra but that doesn't mean she has the power to negate all attacks...you might as well say that Yoroi can counter all ninjutsu just because he was able to absorb chakra via touch...
    you need to get caught up I already said samehada is no preta path soo your post is not needed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Negative Knight View Post
    Alright now that we have Samehada's capabilities sorted, anything else you want to raise ? I'll have to go for now, but when i get back i'll counter

    No way Kakuzu's ninjutsu has that much chakra, but the magnitude of the attack like you said is far too large for Samehada to logically absorb completely, from this factor alone Kisame's chakra absorption limit would be overwhelmed.
    now we are getting somewhere. I agree I never said it would absorb 100% but it will absorb it and spilt the technique like it did with the fireball leaving Kisame untouched. (also I think samehada was wrapped so it was skinny if it was unwrapped it could have possibly had the range to absorb the entire fireball)......I think this is checkmate lol.....come at me. Like the guy said somewhere above and I think I said this in my early post Kisame wins after a hard fought battle and in fusion mode
     
         
    Last edited by slaton02; 10-26-2012 at 10:59 PM.

  9. #84
    Disciple of Unorthodox Icelerate's Avatar
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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    Quote Originally Posted by Negative Knight View Post
    This was the debate i was looking for, single handedly Ice, you've made my thread worth my effort.

    As to respond to your points, I've pointed out earlier that Samehada isn't comparable to the Preta Path in terms of its Ninjutsu absorption, as it takes in raw chakra and can be overwhelmed. The sheer magnitude of Kakuzu's Wind Release Pressure Damage might be enough to overwhelm Samehada in size alone, due to it having to be processed by the sentient sword and not being a "blink of an eye" occurrence.
    I agree that samehada is no preta path but it did absorb most of Killer Bee's chakra which is far higher than anything Kakuzu has. Wind release pressure damage is a pressure based attacks which is why it lacks lethality and can be tanked by someone as durable as Kisame. Remember that Ino-Shika-Cho weren't damaged and neither was Kakashi? Kisame has shown time and time again that he can tank those types of attacks that deal blunt/pressure damage. Even Gai's Hirudora wasn't strong enough to kill him and Kisame still had the strength to over power Yamato's mokuton and survive.
    Quote Originally Posted by Negative Knight View Post
    Raiton isn't stronger than Suiton, but the user doesn't necessarily gain immunity to the element, if Kisame were completely covered into water from a previous technique e.g. Water Dome Prison, he would conduct electricity much more efficiently and it would become a potentially lethal offensive on Kakuzu's part.
    True but Killer Bee's lightning didn't do much against Kisame. I'm not sure to what extent samehada can absorb incoming attacks but it did suck Killer Bee and the Hachibi dry in a small amount of time so I don't think a technique that Kakashi was able to counter has enough chakra to overwhelm samehada. Also in the war when Kakuzu was revived, Tenten was dodging gian pretty easily or this might just be a filler scene since I only remember it from the Anime.
    Quote Originally Posted by Negative Knight View Post
    Whilst i agree Kisame could potentially cut the threads with Samehada but the sheer amount of attacks Kakuzu could make in the same time interval would undoubtedly overwhelm Kisame. Hardening himself with Doton Domu is another method that could be used once Kakuzu realizes that he intends to cuts his threads. Kisame's super strength is probably on a level equal to Kakuzu's own physical prowess, he was able to stop a punch from Chouji with relative ease and break a iron gate with a single punch.
    Does doton domu also harden the black threads or only Kakuzu's body? Also I just checked the data book scores and Kakuzu only has a 4 compared to Kisame's 5 in physical strength. I have no doubt Kisame is stronger than Kakuzu but you may still think the data book is wrong. If you do, I might need to find scans of Kisame praising his superlative strength and other strength feats and see how they stack up against Kakuzu. Choji never even used his pills or BM when Kakuzu blocked that so it isn't the greatest strength feat. Kisame was able to pull samehada out of the toad mouth trap so this proves he is very strong.
    Quote Originally Posted by Negative Knight View Post
    You raise a good point on Kakuzu's Doton Domu, but Kakuzu has shown slight and efficient use of this technique without even slight signs of exhaustion, as you mentioned earlier.
    This is true but I think if Kisame can absorb Kakuzu's chakra for long enough, he won't be able to maintain it. This manga panel explains how in a battle lasting just 3 chapters, samehada had successfully absorbed pretty much all of the Hachibi's chakra!!!
    Quote Originally Posted by Negative Knight View Post
    If Kakuzu was indeed outmatched in a close combat confrontation, then his Earth Grudge Fear Transformation v1 would definitely tip the balance in his favour. In this mode his dark threads are far less exposed and so can't be cut as easily as Kisame would hope, he can use Elemental Blasts from his merged masks remotely, has a considerable level speed when transformed and his own limbs become much more retractable.
    Can Kisame fuse with samehada while fighting on the ground?
    Quote Originally Posted by Negative Knight View Post
    Great Shark Water Bullet leaves Kisame open to attacks, Kakuzu's masks which can both be separated from him and are capable of flight, could attack Kisame from behind to either dispel the attack altogether or deal considerable damage to Kisame.
    Kisame can use water clones to guard his back.
    Quote Originally Posted by Negative Knight View Post
    Being logical, i don't see a definitive method of Kisame winning this match, the lack of lethality about the water element and Kisame's kenjutsu being chakra absorption based means it becomes increasingly difficult for him to win this match.
    I don't want to sound like someone who repeats the same thing over and over again so I will refuse to comment but it has everything to do with Kisame outlasting Kakuzu. Although if Kisame is forced to use too many clones, he may run out of chakra faster than Kakuzu.

    Depends on the location, starting distance and knowledge. It really can go either way.
     
         

  10. #85
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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    Epic Fight.

    Its difficult for both sides.
    Kakuzu with his hearts can constantly attack Kisame from all directions.
    Even if Kisame kills Kakuzu, a heart will just fly in and revive unless he takes out the hearts before they can revive Kakuzu. His 1000 shark tech could cause the hearts some trouble as they aren't that good on the defense, but the hearts could keep up with Kakashi.

    I don't know if Samehada by itself would be able to cut Kakuzu's threads since Kakuzu will spam it at Kisame
    Kisame does have stamina of a tail beast so he could steal a lot of Kakuzu chakra from close range with Samehada, but Kakuzu wouldn't let that happen.

    Kisame's best bet is to pull a fusion with Samehada and blitz Kakuzu in his water dome, then take out the original body, and try and take out the other hearts before they revive Kakuzu with his speed in the water and 1000 shark tech in the water, but the Hearts would just elemental barrage the water dome leaving Kisame a huge open target.
    Kakuzu takes SUPER HIGH DIFFICULTY
     
         

  11. #86
    Senior Member Akatsuki wise guy's Avatar
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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    Even though it was a great thread ***** I have to say kisame.
     
         

  12. #87
    Simple Logic TheCloudsBlackLightning's Avatar
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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    Quote Originally Posted by 6 paths View Post
    Kakuzu could release his hearts, have them all escape in different directions, at least one of them would get out of the dome, he'll have the electric one use an attack inside the dome, fry everything inside, and then the one who went outside reenters Kakuzu's body...just an idea, I'm aware of the fact that Kisame might use Clones, but you also can't forget the fact that Kakuzu was 91 years old, and had immense experience, he should ba able to find a way to beat Kisame, the guy survived a battle with Hashi ffs
    Dont think so. The dome moves along with Kisame so he can potientially keep them all inside. Kakuzu has his earth heart inside him to live while the other 4 attack. Kisame would go after the hearts one at a time and can deatroy the lightning heart.
     
         

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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    Quote Originally Posted by slaton02 View Post
    now we are get somewhere. I agree I never said it would absorb 100% but it will absorb it and spilt the technique like it did with the fireball leaving Kisame untouched......I think this is checkmate lol.....come at me. Like the guy said somewhere above and I think I said this in my early post Kisame wins after a hard fought battle and in fusion mode
    Kakuzu could still attack from 5 directions at once, when he's released the hearts, Kisame won't be able to negate all of them. Kisame would put up a hard fight, but Kakuzu takes this one...
     
         

  14. #89
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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    Quote Originally Posted by 6 paths View Post
    Kakuzu could still attack from 5 directions at once, when he's released the hearts, Kisame won't be able to negate all of them. Kisame would put up a hard fight, but Kakuzu takes this one...
    1. he needs 1 heart to live and we never seen him do a off water attack so it 4
    2. unwrap samehada could possibly absorbs the attack if kisame spin with it
    3. Kisame can dodge some of them
    4. Kisame can counter with exploding water shock wave
     
         
    Last edited by slaton02; 10-26-2012 at 11:06 PM.

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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    Quote Originally Posted by Icelerate View Post
    Okay Negative I promised you I would post in this thread supporting Kisame. Now that I read your entire thread, it does seem like it would be a very close fight that could go either way high difficulty. Nevertheless, I still think Kisame would win.

    Well let's start correcting the fallacy that raiton>suiton. Remember when Mei used her water dragon jutsu which the Raikage electrified? It did not electrocute Mei in anyway so I doubt Kisame would be fried. Also samehada should have no trouble absorbing gian as I don't think it is an attack with too much chakra nor is it a fire release attack.

    Also I highly disagree when you said that Kakuzu is immune to wind techniques. He is immune to earth based and physical attacks but he is only somewhat resistant to wind techniques. Wind has a high power of slicing and top tier wind users will be able to get through doton domu IMO just like Naruto did with FRS.

    Anyway I'm quite sure that Kisame water attacks will douse any and all of Kakuzu's flames. Kisame won't get overwhelmed by Kakuzu's fire attack because Yamato and Naruto were able to dispel the flames and I think Kisame, being the most powerful suiton user in the manga won't get overwhelmed. This will mean that Kakuzu won't be able to overwhelm Kisame because Kakuzu's raiton is absorbed and the katon/fuuton combo is countered by a more powerful suiton.

    As for the earth grudge threads, well I think that would be problematic but Kisame could use samehada to cut them up as he is a top tier swordsman. Kisame also has super human strength so he should be able to break them before Kakuzu manages to steal a heart.

    I must admit that Kisame has absolutely nothing on doton domu but it isn't like Kakuzu can maintain the jutsu forever. It requires Kakuzu to use a constant amount of chakra so eventually, Kakuzu's chakra supplies will diminish allowing Kisame to finish him off. Although this will be a long fought battle since Kakuzu is a stamina beast and didn't show any signs of exhaustion unlike Kakashi and Shikamaru who became exhausted quite easily despite the fact that Kakuzu's ninjutsu seems more chakra taxing to me.

    I think Kisame has better taijutsu compared to Kakuzu but neither will be able to do a significant amount of damage against the other because of doton domu and samehada regeneration. However, a CQC bout will only favour Kisame because he will be able to absorb Kakuzu's chakra.

    Kisame's wide AoE attacks should allow him to attack multiple hearts at once as well as counter the massive elemental blasts from Kakuzu especially if samehada weakens Kakuzu's techniques. http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Water_R...Feeding_Sharks
    Kisame's great shark bullet technique will allow his attack to become stronger and stronger as it absorbs the opponents ninjutsu thereby allowing his own attack to use the power of Kakuzu's attack and divert the full force against his own opponent.

    You make a good point that is was especially hard for Kakashi to take down Kakuzu's hearts on his own but this is because Kakashi is a lot weaker than Kisame, especially during that arc.

    Still if Kakuzu manages to steal Kisame's heart, Kisame won't be able to regenerate thus the win would go to Kakuzu. Although I think that Kisame can avoid the black threads by ripping them apart via samehada and super strength. Kisame's sensory abilities and reflexes while fused in samehada should not be underrated either and I think he should be able to avoid those threads entirely if he fuses.
    I would agree that Lightning doesn't beat water in a jutsus on jutsu collision, but water does in fact conduct electricity. An example would be Darui's black lightning being used on the Zetsus on the coast! The ones who didn't jump were electocuted. Based on that I would reasonably say that Kakuzu's lighting is dangerous ONLY if Kisame isn't cautious. Spewing an ocean from the mouth could backfire as if the water is still connected to his mouth or he stands on the water he risks electrocution. Of course the same applies to Kakuzu so it is always possible it is turned on him.

    I agree Kakuzu isn't immune to wind techniques...rasenshuriken is enough proof ! He is highly resistant though. He is immune to earth and physical attacks. Depending on the class level of earth spear it is possible that water techs won't work as Earth beards Water.

    It was stated by Yamato (could have been Kakashi...it was when he was learning rasenshuriken) that a technique infused with the strength of another element can beat an element it was normal weak against. So a wind and fire tech is stronger than a water element tech. Kakuzu's fire techs have been shown to be of a hifh level and that enhanced with Wind of a high level according to Yamato/ Kakashi could beat a water element from Kisame.

    Earth Grudge's only advantage for Kakuzu is it is a save if his limbs are hacked by Sameheda! I don't see Kisame being caught up by them

    I would say the above advantage makes The only advantage Kisame gains from CQC the taking of bonus chakra. Otherwise Kisame would be at the disadvantage.

    Kisame has AoE attacks, but so does Kakuzu. His fire/wind techs cancel out the water techs if not best them as it is two high level fire/wind vs high level water. Sameheda has a limit to how much it csn absorb based on the Killer Bee vs Kisame battle. Great Shark Bullet does have its greatest advantage, but its damaging is limited due to his Earth element advantage.

    I agree with the Samehade fusion mode. I didn't think the threads a kill against Kisame, but it is out of the question with a fusion. Plus his chakra absorption becomes his body meaning attacks will always be weaker than the normally would be! Doesn't gurentee invulnerability though ^.^

    Good work on your counter argument! The best counter to a thread I've seen in a long time
     
         

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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    Quote Originally Posted by slaton02 View Post
    1. he needs 1 heart to live lol so it 4
    2. unwrap samehada could possibly absorbs the attack if kisame spin with it
    3. Kisame can dodge some of them
    4. Kisame can counter with exploding water shock wave
    1. I assume he knows some jutsus himself so it's 5...
    2. Valid point, but if all 5 just keep on attacking and change the direction of from where they attack and keep their distance it should work. Kisame isn't going to spin on forever.
    3. The same answer as above^ They keep on attacking while keeping their distance, Kisame couldn't risk using water type jutsu because of Lightning mask. He won't be able to keep this up forever
    4. He'd likely get zapped himself by the Lightning masks attack
    I'm leaving anyways, won't reply for the next few hours, ciao
     
         

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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    Quote Originally Posted by slaton02 View Post
    1. he needs 1 heart to live and we never seen him do a off water attack so it 4
    2. unwrap samehada could possibly absorbs the attack if kisame spin with it
    3. Kisame can dodge some of them
    4. Kisame can counter with exploding water shock wave
    He meant the 4 hearts and Kakuzu himself using the threads to attack. So its 5.
     
         

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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    Welp, You've done it again N.Knight!

    Mock Lightning in the water dome would be killer against kisame
    That and also Bleeding Force....(his wind element pressure blast)

    those two jutsu would render his water prison OR dome jutsu ineffective because:
    1.Lightning>water. He would fry kisame and his sword and/or his sharks he may have cast
    2.Wind cancels out/ is equal to water in this instance. He could use that to push away all that water he's trapped in to get free from his water dome or prison jutsu while his other hearts attack kisame with high ranked elemental jutsu..

    If kisame were to try and cut him with his sword....iron skin would render that useless seeing how he can stop an exploding kunai with ease

    another thing, if kakazu wanted to use the threads and merge with his masks...wow thats alot for kisame to handle..he could just fuse with lightning and wind and use those two elements in seperation to counter kisame's water elements accordingly or stick with Fire and wind in combinations to overpower kisames water elements.

    I only see GSM as a threat if kakazu hasnt even split apart his body yet (which chances are wouldnt even happen) and as a worst case scenario...he could use his iron skin defense to try and tank the attack or use it as a diversion to sink his thread and hearts underground to surprise attack kisame after his jutsu is over..
     
         

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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    Quote Originally Posted by 6 paths View Post
    1. I assume he knows some jutsus himself so it's 5...
    2. Valid point, but if all 5 just keep on attacking and change the direction of from where they attack and keep their distance it should work. Kisame isn't going to spin on forever.
    3. The same answer as above^ They keep on attacking while keeping their distance, Kisame couldn't risk using water type jutsu because of Lightning mask. He won't be able to keep this up forever
    4. He'd likely get zapped himself by the Lightning masks attack
    I'm leaving anyways, won't reply for the next few hours, ciao
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCloudsBlackLightning View Post
    He meant the 4 hearts and Kakuzu himself using the threads to attack. So its 5.
    we never never seen him do an offensive water and earth jutsu soo what type of attack would they be? Kisame can make clones to deal with some of the hearts like he did with team Guy.
     
         

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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    Quote Originally Posted by slaton02 View Post
    we never never seen him do an offensive water and earth jutsu soo what type of attack would they be? Kisame can make clones to deal with some of the hearts like he did with team Guy.
    I not saying Kakuzu wins if thats what you think. I say Kisame. Kisame makes Kakuzu's Water heart useless and can counter the wind and fire hearts with large scale water techs. The lightning heart is the only problem but Super Shark Bomb solves that.
     
         

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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    Quote Originally Posted by 6 paths View Post
    1. I assume he knows some jutsus himself so it's 5...
    2. Valid point, but if all 5 just keep on attacking and change the direction of from where they attack and keep their distance it should work. Kisame isn't going to spin on forever.
    3. The same answer as above^ They keep on attacking while keeping their distance, Kisame couldn't risk using water type jutsu because of Lightning mask. He won't be able to keep this up
    forever
    4. He'd likely get zapped himself by the Lightning masks attack
    I'm leaving anyways, won't reply for the next few hours, ciao
    I agree with all of this except 4! If he stands on water than yes, however if the wall has no direct contact with him then he doesn't face electrocution
     
         

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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    Arguing for Kisame…




    Contingencies:
    Kakuzu is a dangerous opponent for anyone to fair against. It is undeniable. He has, at his disposal, the necessary tools to conjure up a win and an intellect that provides him with practical approaches. Kakuzu’s abilities are heavily situated on ninjutsu, and taijutsu. He speed is fairly great as well as his stamina, both are vital and continuingly exercised in his battles from what has been seen. Kakuzu is undoubtedly a shinobi of lethality, whose defeats require someone with either more power to them or utilizing tools perspicaciously. Kisame is the former. He possesses the raw strength that augments his abilities to bijū levels, which compared to others, is seemingly titanic.
    _____________________________

    Doton Domu:
    As much praise as this receives, Kakuzu’s Doton armor is not impervious. It is based off the material properties of diamond, which is earth. As opposed to what people think, diamond can be smashed rather easily. It is just some believed that it is the hardest substance on Earth, which cannot be broken. That is a misconception.

    Diamond cannot be scratched, but since it is brittle, it is susceptible to being broken by items that have enough force between them (i.e. a hammer, water, stone, etc.). This is because of the structure weakness of a diamond. While it is a hard material, its structural imperfections allow something with a greater force to break it like glass; ultimately leaving it useless. Moreover; it is chakra founded, so it is definitely absorbable by Samehada.


    Suirō Sameodori:
    Potentially decisive, this jutsu can be used to effectively damage and remove Kakuzu’s Doton from him, for reasons listed above. By pressuring Kakuzu, Kisame can forcefully restrict Kakuzu’s Doton armor. The range of this jutsu is massive and devastating to its recipient, for the fusion between Samehada and Kisame provide a seemingly endless amount of opportunities to slay Kakuzu. Additionally; this fusion amplifies Kisame’s killing potential, for the jutsu allows him to further control his movements making him much harder to kill. Some may claim that a raiton technique would ultimately render this jutsu useless, but the fusion of Samehada enables Kisame to utilize its absorbent principals, which makes seemingly all ninjutsu fruitless in the scope of this technique. Basically; if Kisame uses the water dome then he is most likely fused with Samehada and If Kakuzu orders his raiton mask to shoot raiton into the dome Kakuzu will be the only one getting hurt by his own technique while Kisame’s body simply feeds on the raiton.

    Suiton Daikōdan:
    Daikōdan by itself can entirely neutralize the effects of Kakuzu’s Doton. This is jutsu varies from the original in that it is able to absorb the chakra from an opponent's technique and in turn, use that chakra to grow larger and more powerful. Thus; the stronger the opponents technique is, the stronger this technique will become.

    _____________________________

    Samehada:
    Due to its absorbent abilities this alone can negate any and all of Kakuzu’s jutsu. In the event that some argue that it would not absorb Katon based techniques, Kisame has been shown to make it to following his commands compellingly regardless of Samehada desires.

    Jiongu:
    Kakuzu has to control his threads with chakra. And these threads are used for attacking and stealing his opponent’s hearts. Samehada can rip though these threads, and absorb the chakra, potentially leaving Kakuzu weaken. Kisame can then easily proceed to attack the weaken Kakuzu who may or may not have attempted to steal Kisame's heart, but was weaken by Kisame's chakra absorbing ability.

    _____________________________

    Conclusion:
    The amplifications that sheathe Kisame are sufficient to allow him to overcome Kakuzu the majority of the time. Ninjutsu wielders do awful against Kisame, for he possesses the necessary tools to suppress them without much prevalence from the enemy. Kakuzu's style seemingly consists of overwhelming with his Ninjutsu. Unfortunately, against a foe that possesses the ability to absorb chakra - and in rather large amounts as well. This handy ability of his should render Kakuzu's Ninjutsu ineffective, but since Kakuzu already knows that, I doubt he'd release his masks and make his extra four lives walking targets like that. Instead, he'd probably opt to engage in close combat in Kisame and hope to capture him with his jiongu and finish him off quickly. Kisame has the advantage in range, stamina and the ability to steal his opponent's chakra and use it to replenish his own and whatnot, as well as have Samehada get in the way of an attack. Furthermore; Kisame is also surprisingly strong, so it's very possible that Kisame can simply just break the threads.

    Kakuzu's options are limited. What makes him so dangerous is his ability to use three powerful attacks using three different elements, making him almost impossible to counter. With the presence of Samehada, firing attacks from the masks will only give Kisame an advantage since he can use the stolen chakra for regeneration. It's possible that Kakuzu can simply counter this by having them attack from different directions, but Kisame can counter this by fusing with his sword. Furthermore, the masks aren't particularly fast or strong, and they can be very easily picked off. Kisame has even a effective counter against Kakuzu's Doton armor. Kakuzu is simply a bad match up for Kisame.
     
         
    Last edited by Lindow; 10-27-2012 at 12:24 AM.

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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    those hearts will be a problem for kisame without knowledge
     
         

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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    Additional things.

    Absorbing:
    Samehada itself can absorb a six tails of the Gyūki’s chakra, which causes it to decrease into its one tail formed. Moreover; Samehada can easily absorb a version two eight tailed Bee, and force him into a version one seven tailed state. When Kisame and Samehada fuse, this absorption increases. Now they are able to absorb a version two eight tailed Bee and force him into a version one six tailed stated and make Bee regress to his base form. Ultimately; Samehada will have no problem instantly absorbing raition based attack, for its capacity is monstrous.
     
         

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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    kakuzu would be able to beat kisame if kisame didnt have the water shark bullet jutsu... that jutsu absorbs chakra from ninjutsu and makes the water shark bullet stronger... kakuzu has no defence to water shark bullet jutsu and it will probably destroy all his hearts in an instant.I believe kisame will win just because of this jutsu. you make good points though but the counter to the water shark jutsu i dont think works
     
         

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