(Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

[New knight48]

kakuzu would be able to beat kisame if kisame didnt have the water shark bullet jutsu... that jutsu absorbs chakra from ninjutsu and makes the water shark bullet stronger... kakuzu has no defence to water shark bullet jutsu and it will probably destroy all his hearts in an instant.I believe kisame will win just because of this jutsu. you make good points though but the counter to the water shark jutsu i dont think works

[-6 Paths-]

I agree with all of this except 4! If he stands on water than yes, however if the wall has no direct contact with him then he doesn't face electrocution

Well, alright, I will give you that one, he won't get electrocuted if he isn't touching the water it self, good point

[LssJBroly]

I admit you have changed my perspective
I think Kisame wins by hype O.o
But you state good points

[DeViliShChild]

Ive seen this debate before and the real answer is Kisame rapes Kakuzu. Only thing Kakuzu has that is worth anything is lightening attacks which are made out of chakara which Kisame/Samahada absorbs.
P.S. http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/470/16 for reference

[EjBlack]

Ive seen this debate before and the real answer is Kisame rapes Kakuzu. Only thing Kakuzu has that is worth anything is lightening attacks which are made out of chakara which Kisame/Samahada absorbs.
P.S. http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/470/16 for reference

Can you back up how Kisame would stomp Kakuzu?

[DeViliShChild]

Can you back up how Kisame would stomp Kakuzu?

Kisame fuses and completely drains Kakuzu of all chakara. Kakuzu now immobilized due to no chakara and is consequently stomped by Kisames foot

[EjBlack]

Kisame fuses and completely drains Kakuzu of all chakara. Kakuzu now immobilized due to no chakara and is consequently stomped by Kisames foot

EVEN IF that were to happen, Kakuzu still has 4 more seperate chakra sources. That statement is self-defeating.

2. Look carefully at the Swords characteristics in the manga It eats alot of chakra for people who have huge amount already.

Example: Kisame vs Guy compare to Kisame vs Killer Bee.

[DeViliShChild]

EVEN IF that were to happen, Kakuzu still has 4 more seperate chakra sources. That statement is self-defeating.

2. Look carefully at the Swords characteristics in the manga It eats alot of chakra for people who have huge amount already.

Example: Kisame vs Guy compare to Kisame vs Killer Bee.

1. They are not separate sources of chakara, they allow him to use the heart's chakra nature. If you believe otherwise, please link me to something in the manga that says otherwise.

2. The sword is said to eat chakara, and with Bee's fight we can tell that it is about 6 tails worth of chakra. After absorbing it goes to Kisame or can be stored in Samahada until needed.

U

[T Bogard]

Ah, so you finally come up with it? Cool. I always saw Kakuzu as the superior combattant here for these reasons:

- He has 5elements, while Kisame only has one element. While his suiton is greatly overwhelming, since it's a suiton base it can't kill Kakuzu especially when he is protected by the doton domu(doton>suiton)
- Kisame is alone and he will be facing 5opponents(Kakuzu and his masks) and Kisame doesn't have enough of speed feats. In the contrary, he usually takes damages(whether he wants it or not), so facing 5opponents, i really doubt he can handle all that. Even Kakashi with the sharingan had difficulties to keep up, and we all know how fast he is, we all know the advantage of precognition that Sharingan gives, so there is no way that Kisame could keep up

- You may say that Samehada could absorb attacks which is true, but until when? And could Samehada really absorbs attacks coming from 5directions? To absorb chakra, kisame usually puts Samehada infront of him to protect himself and absorb it, so if Kakuzu attacks from 5different directions, how does he protect himself with Samehada, and avoid damage? And that is when i forget the fact that manga has already shown that Samehada doesn't like fire, so the overwhelming katon jutsu Kakuzu has shown would cause great troubles to Samehada

- So if they fight outside water, Kisame has absolute no chance and i didn't even mentioned the fact that Kakuzu has 5hearts, so Kisame has to kill him 5times. Now Kisame will most likely use his water dome, but could he really use it in same extent than against Killer-Bee? I doubt simply because remember that he absorbed Hachibis chakra before that moment and it's the reason why it was that big. But still, even if he manages to do that, Kakuzu only has to do his best to get out of it, because inside it, Kisame will be at his advantage.

Kakuzu having 5bodies is greatly advantaging him here in this situation. With some of his bodies, he can create diversions to feint Kisame, and find his way through. With his fuuton attack for example, it has enough power to blow away a great part of Kisames waterdome. At that moment, he has opportunities to go outside of it

Fighting outside the dome and Kisame is screwed like i've said. Even if we imagine a scenario where he loses one of his heart, he can play death and catch Kisame by surprise. I'm not sure if Kisame knows Kakuzus secret, so he could be surprised

So overall yes i agree, Kakuzu is stronger than Kisame

[DeViliShChild]

Ah, so you finally come up with it? Cool. I always saw Kakuzu as the superior combattant here for these reasons:

- He has 5elements, while Kisame only has one element. While his suiton is greatly overwhelming, since it's a suiton base it can't kill Kakuzu especially when he is protected by the doton domu(doton>suiton)
- Kisame is alone and he will be facing 5opponents(Kakuzu and his masks) and Kisame doesn't have enough of speed feats. In the contrary, he usually takes damages(whether he wants it or not), so facing 5opponents, i really doubt he can handle all that. Even Kakashi with the sharingan had difficulties to keep up, and we all know how fast he is, we all know the advantage of precognition that Sharingan gives, so there is no way that Kisame could keep up

- You may say that Samehada could absorb attacks which is true, but until when? And could Samehada really absorbs attacks coming from 5directions? To absorb chakra, kisame usually puts Samehada infront of him to protect himself and absorb it, so if Kakuzu attacks from 5different directions, how does he protect himself with Samehada, and avoid damage? And that is when i forget the fact that manga has already shown that Samehada doesn't like fire, so the overwhelming katon jutsu Kakuzu has shown would cause great troubles to Samehada

- So if they fight outside water, Kisame has absolute no chance and i didn't even mentioned the fact that Kakuzu has 5hearts, so Kisame has to kill him 5times. Now Kisame will most likely use his water dome, but could he really use it in same extent than against Killer-Bee? I doubt simply because remember that he absorbed Hachibis chakra before that moment and it's the reason why it was that big. But still, even if he manages to do that, Kakuzu only has to do his best to get out of it, because inside it, Kisame will be at his advantage.

Kakuzu having 5bodies is greatly advantaging him here in this situation. With some of his bodies, he can create diversions to feint Kisame, and find his way through. With his fuuton attack for example, it has enough power to blow away a great part of Kisames waterdome. At that moment, he has opportunities to go outside of it

Fighting outside the dome and Kisame is screwed like i've said. Even if we imagine a scenario where he loses one of his heart, he can play death and catch Kisame by surprise. I'm not sure if Kisame knows Kakuzus secret, so he could be surprised

So overall yes i agree, Kakuzu is stronger than Kisame

How does Kakuzu defeat Kisame when he fuses with Samahada and creates a giant water dome?

[Sovereign]

Good thread, but I wouldn't say Kakuzu > Kisame hands down, or even vice versa for that matter. Based on their showings in the manga, it's clear to me that Kisame and Kakuzu are roughly on the same level. And when two combatants are so close in power, a fight between them could really go either way depending on the match stipulations. So, this isn't going to be a "stomp" for either one. Both will have to work for a victory.

[soulless uchiha]

Indeed, I agree, but it wouldn't be a stomp. They're extremely close in terms of raw power...

[EjBlack]

1. They are not separate sources of chakara, they allow him to use the heart's chakra nature. If you believe otherwise, please link me to something in the manga that says otherwise.

2. The sword is said to eat chakara, and with Bee's fight we can tell that it is about 6 tails worth of chakra. After absorbing it goes to Kisame or can be stored in Samahada until needed.

U

1.

They are seperate, notice that Kakuzu is DEAD in that scene and they were still active. How is a dead body going use chakra to bring them back to him?

Also in the anime (Which I don't have a problem using this as an example): they fought back using their element style to fight through/ back to the owner.

2. I say Again notice him taking chakra from Bee then look at Guy's fights . That swords specfically eats alot of chakra when it comes to jinjuriki's then of someone normal/balance chakra.

[DeViliShChild]

1.

They are seperate, notice that Kakuzu is DEAD in that scene and they were still active. How is a dead body going use chakra to bring them back to him?

Also in the anime (Which I don't have a problem using this as an example): they fought back using their element style to fight through/ back to the owner.

2. I say Again notice him taking chakra from Bee then look at Guy's fights . That swords specfically eats alot of chakra when it comes to jinjuriki's then of someone normal/balance chakra.

1. He killed Kakuzu's Earth heart. He can no longer use earth elemental. Im so confused what that has to do with them all having their own chakara. It's all Kakuzu's strung together.

2. I have no idea what you mean with this. The sword eats chakara. period. Gai doesn't use Chakra to fight. Kakuzu does. So what does gai have to do with this

[ANONYMOUS 182]

BRILLIANT as always

[al3xsmith13]

I think kisame would take this there was a body of water near by. anddddd great thread!

[shanee]

this really doesnt even seem like a fair fight for kisame. even with everything you said. he just wont win because kakazu has 2 ways to counter his water. both fire/wind and lightning. if he guys stuck in Kisame's Water Prison, kakazu would just use his lightning to hurt both him and kisame. its not really a fair battle.

kisames only option is to face kakazu without his water style trying to steal as much chakra from kakazu as he can before he releases his masks. that way, kakazus hardening body technique will be useless sinse he steals charka instead or trying to cut his opponent.

but thats all i got. i would say kakazu wins mid-low dif.

[EjBlack]

[QUOTEeViliShChild;8892090]1. He killed Kakuzu's Earth heart.(Prove it--In Fact this statement is irreverent to this discussion, I don't know why you brought that out.). He can no longer use earth elemental (Again No idea why you are bringing this up and yet that doesn't prove that the mask was Earth.) . Im so confused what that has to do with them all having their own chakara. It's all Kakuzu's strung together (The way you are putting it is like Kakuzu chakra link is the same as Kankuro: Absorb the main body and he can't link chakra anymore which is incorrect. These monsters are stored with someone elses heart and chakra nature, thus having 4 extra.)

[Braveknight]

Cool thread ***** for hard work

to make it short unless kakazu destroys samehade kisame would win hands down , since all of the 5 hearts containers are moving using chakara, absorb that chakara and they are mobilized. xD my opinion

[-Danzo-]

Great Thread Bro. But I'm going to side with Kisame on this one.

One thing that I think most people have forgotten is that Kakuzu can't choose which one of his masks gets killed. If even one of his masks dies than it could be one of Kakuzu's vital masks like Fire or Earth. If either Fire or Wind is taken than he would not be able to combine them for his powerful elemental attacks. If Earth is the one that dies then he would not be able to defend against physical and Kenjutsu attacks leaving him at the mercy of Kisame.

Kakuzu's threads would be a problem but the threads themselves can't be hardened just the limbs they are attached to. Multiple attacks from the threads won't be a too much of a problem since Samehada has shown to have a mind of its own and to be able to dodge and attack independently. Samehada has also shown the ability to extend its hilt and utilizing Samehada as a flail will allow him to cut the threads without being too close. Multiple attacks from If I remember correctly only one of the masks has shown to be able to fly (Wind Mask) in the manga.

[natzzz]

very hard to decide but i'm going to go with kakauzu due to his eath and lightning release and kakashi stated that water techniques are not strong enough to hold against air fire combo's.

[Sunagura]

very good thread as always, really like these vs thread, full of detail...i must say they both have 50/50, but i give it to kakuzu with his five element attack, but if kisame make waterdom and water shark bullet in start than kisame win....

make more of these thread often..:D

[DeViliShChild]

[QUOTE=EjBlack;8892868]

1. He killed Kakuzu's Earth heart.(Prove it--In Fact this statement is irreverent to this discussion, I don't know why you brought that out.). He can no longer use earth elemental (Again No idea why you are bringing this up and yet that doesn't prove that the mask was Earth.) . Im so confused what that has to do with them all having their own chakara. It's all Kakuzu's strung together (The way you are putting it is like Kakuzu chakra link is the same as Kankuro: Absorb the main body and he can't link chakra anymore which is incorrect. These monsters are stored with someone elses heart and chakra nature, thus having 4 extra.)

First and foremost, try not to quote someone and then write inside of that quote. It is very confusing to discern what you are trying to say.

1. Well lets see, anytime Kakuzu was attacked he turned to Stone with earth element. After Kakashi hit him, he never used Earth element. - Proven.
2. Yes it does, all of Kakuzu's abilities are from other people now (except his stitching)

3. Yes they all have their own Chakra nature but not their own chakra!
For example Sasori's puppet of the Third Kazakage has all his abilities and his chakara stored in it from the time he died.
Kakuzu just gets the ability to use the nature of the chakara.

[Negative Knight]

I agree that samehada is no preta path but it did absorb most of Killer Bee's chakra which is far higher than anything Kakuzu has. Wind release pressure damage is a pressure based attacks which is why it lacks lethality and can be tanked by someone as durable as Kisame. Remember that Ino-Shika-Cho weren't damaged and neither was Kakashi? Kisame has shown time and time again that he can tank those types of attacks that deal blunt/pressure damage. Even Gai's Hirudora wasn't strong enough to kill him and Kisame still had the strength to over power Yamato's mokuton and survive.

True but Killer Bee's lightning didn't do much against Kisame. I'm not sure to what extent samehada can absorb incoming attacks but it did suck Killer Bee and the Hachibi dry in a small amount of time so I don't think a technique that Kakashi was able to counter has enough chakra to overwhelm samehada. Also in the war when Kakuzu was revived, Tenten was dodging gian pretty easily or this might just be a filler scene since I only remember it from the Anime.

Does doton domu also harden the black threads or only Kakuzu's body? Also I just checked the data book scores and Kakuzu only has a 4 compared to Kisame's 5 in physical strength. I have no doubt Kisame is stronger than Kakuzu but you may still think the data book is wrong. If you do, I might need to find scans of Kisame praising his superlative strength and other strength feats and see how they stack up against Kakuzu. Choji never even used his pills or BM when Kakuzu blocked that so it isn't the greatest strength feat. Kisame was able to pull samehada out of the toad mouth trap so this proves he is very strong.

This is true but I think if Kisame can absorb Kakuzu's chakra for long enough, he won't be able to maintain it. This manga panel explains how in a battle lasting just 3 chapters, samehada had successfully absorbed pretty much all of the Hachibi's chakra!!!

Can Kisame fuse with samehada while fighting on the ground?

Kisame can use water clones to guard his back.

I don't want to sound like someone who repeats the same thing over and over again so I will refuse to comment but it has everything to do with Kisame outlasting Kakuzu. Although if Kisame is forced to use too many clones, he may run out of chakra faster than Kakuzu.

Depends on the location, starting distance and knowledge. It really can go either way.

I have to concur on this point, Kakuzu could mainly use this as a means of dissipating massive waves of water sent towards him by Kisame (elemental neutrality between water and wind mean they cancel out). However Wind Release Pressure Damage has been shown to fuse with his Katon Zukko, to reach an even higher magnitude, the lethal nature of fire builds on the weakness of his Wind and to an extent nullifies it. Kisame could only hope to counter these two techniques using his largest scale Water Techniques, where these two techniques would inevitably cancel out eachother.

Samehada has shown a certain degree of profiency in its absorption capabilites but highly lacks in defending against higher scale attacks and particularly Katon Release techniques. Samehada would absorb Gian on a normal basis, but Kakuzu seems to use his masks simulatenosuly rather than sepereately in such a way, all the angles are difficult to cover. Kisame usually defends against Ninjutsu using Samehada as a chakra absorption seal, but from 360 degree offensives i highly doubt he could use this to much effect.

You could argue that absorbing chakra from one of the assaults could compensate for the damage dealt through the others by attempting to utilize Samehada's Cellular regeneration, but there are a few looming flaws with this. First of all, the healing is in direct proportion to the amount of chakra in absorbed, so being hit by the other three elemental attacks would inevitably tip the balance and leave Kisame crippled in one way or another. Samehada has to be alive for Kisame to have this ability, the sword itself has shown to be slightly tender/easy to pierce and damage so being hit by three other large scale attacks, one of which is a high scale Katon techniques would prove to be fatal.

The 3rd flaw with his regeneration is the magnitude of the attacks of Kakuzu's projectiles, all of them except Gian (and possibly the earth offensive) wouldn't be absorbed completely so whatever way Kisame looks at it he's screwed, at best he'll be cut badly from the wind, burnt severely and crushed by the earth offensive.

Kakuzu's Doton Domu would most likely harden his threads as well, his entire body constitutes of dark threads, so they would probably count towards his bodily composition. Kisame might have the slight edge in raw strength but Kakuzu's unique body structure provides him with versatility to counter this with. If Kakuzu did feel outmatched in a CQC, then he could use his superior speed and agility (Samehada weighs down Kisame) to counter act this and make it a battle of range, where only he can land hits while Kisame pursues.

Kakuzu has shown extremely agility and can even latch onto higher ground in the terrain whilst in his V2 Transformation. This could be used to attack Kisame from above with the extension of his threads, unexpected elemental blasts to catch Kisame off guard and even render his close range chakra absorption trait useless.

I believe Kisame can fuse with Samehada whilst on the ground, he still maintains the ability to breath and so it wouldn't be a problem. However, he gains the speed advantage in water so its logical to use his Water Dome in conjunction with his fusion.

I'm surprised you haven't made more use of the Mizu Bunshins, they have 1/10th of the user's original chakra, so they're considerably powerful but then again one high scale blast would eradicate all of them. They would also individually be far outclassed by Kakuzu's masks, with the ability of flight meaning it becomes a one-sided battle between the clones and the masks.

[DeViliShChild]

NegativeKnight How does Kakuzu beat Kisame if he fuses with Samahada?