(Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

[Negative Knight]

Arguing for Kisame…

Contingencies:
Kakuzu is a dangerous opponent for anyone to fair against. It is undeniable. He has, at his disposal, the necessary tools to conjure up a win and an intellect that provides him with practical approaches. Kakuzu’s abilities are heavily situated on ninjutsu, and taijutsu. He speed is fairly great as well as his stamina, both are vital and continuingly exercised in his battles from what has been seen. Kakuzu is undoubtedly a shinobi of lethality, whose defeats require someone with either more power to them or utilizing tools perspicaciously. Kisame is the former. He possesses the raw strength that augments his abilities to bijū levels, which compared to others, is seemingly titanic.
_____________________________

Doton Domu:
As much praise as this receives, Kakuzu’s Doton armor is not impervious. It is based off the material properties of diamond, which is earth. As opposed to what people think, diamond can be smashed rather easily. It is just some believed that it is the hardest substance on Earth, which cannot be broken. That is a misconception.

Diamond cannot be scratched, but since it is brittle, it is susceptible to being broken by items that have enough force between them (i.e. a hammer, water, stone, etc.). This is because of the structure weakness of a diamond. While it is a hard material, its structural imperfections allow something with a greater force to break it like glass; ultimately leaving it useless. Moreover; it is chakra founded, so it is definitely absorbable by Samehada.

Suirō Sameodori:
Potentially decisive, this jutsu can be used to effectively damage and remove Kakuzu’s Doton from him, for reasons listed above. By pressuring Kakuzu, Kisame can forcefully restrict Kakuzu’s Doton armor. The range of this jutsu is massive and devastating to its recipient, for the fusion between Samehada and Kisame provide a seemingly endless amount of opportunities to slay Kakuzu. Additionally; this fusion amplifies Kisame’s killing potential, for the jutsu allows him to further control his movements making him much harder to kill. Some may claim that a raiton technique would ultimately render this jutsu useless, but the fusion of Samehada enables Kisame to utilize its absorbent principals, which makes seemingly all ninjutsu fruitless in the scope of this technique. Basically; if Kisame uses the water dome then he is most likely fused with Samehada and If Kakuzu orders his raiton mask to shoot raiton into the dome Kakuzu will be the only one getting hurt by his own technique while Kisame’s body simply feeds on the raiton.

Suiton Daikōdan:

Daikōdan by itself can entirely neutralize the effects of Kakuzu’s Doton. This is jutsu varies from the original in that it is able to absorb the chakra from an opponent's technique and in turn, use that chakra to grow larger and more powerful. Thus; the stronger the opponents technique is, the stronger this technique will become.

_____________________________

Samehada:

Due to its absorbent abilities this alone can negate any and all of Kakuzu’s jutsu. In the event that some argue that it would not absorb Katon based techniques, Kisame has been shown to make it to following his commands compellingly regardless of Samehada desires.

Jiongu:
Kakuzu has to control his threads with chakra. And these threads are used for attacking and stealing his opponent’s hearts. Samehada can rip though these threads, and absorb the chakra, potentially leaving Kakuzu weaken. Kisame can then easily proceed to attack the weaken Kakuzu who may or may not have attempted to steal Kisame's heart, but was weaken by Kisame's chakra absorbing ability.

_____________________________

Conclusion:
The amplifications that sheathe Kisame are sufficient to allow him to overcome Kakuzu the majority of the time. Ninjutsu wielders do awful against Kisame, for he possesses the necessary tools to suppress them without much prevalence from the enemy. Kakuzu's style seemingly consists of overwhelming with his Ninjutsu. Unfortunately, against a foe that possesses the ability to absorb chakra - and in rather large amounts as well. This handy ability of his should render Kakuzu's Ninjutsu ineffective, but since Kakuzu already knows that, I doubt he'd release his masks and make his extra four lives walking targets like that. Instead, he'd probably opt to engage in close combat in Kisame and hope to capture him with his jiongu and finish him off quickly. Kisame has the advantage in range, stamina and the ability to steal his opponent's chakra and use it to replenish his own and whatnot, as well as have Samehada get in the way of an attack. Furthermore; Kisame is also surprisingly strong, so it's very possible that Kisame can simply just break the threads.

Kakuzu's options are limited. What makes him so dangerous is his ability to use three powerful attacks using three different elements, making him almost impossible to counter. With the presence of Samehada, firing attacks from the masks will only give Kisame an advantage since he can use the stolen chakra for regeneration. It's possible that Kakuzu can simply counter this by having them attack from different directions, but Kisame can counter this by fusing with his sword. Furthermore, the masks aren't particularly fast or strong, and they can be very easily picked off. Kisame has even a effective counter against Kakuzu's Doton armor. Kakuzu is simply a bad match up for Kisame.

Doton Domu is hardly the perfect defense, but it has shown to make Kakuzu highly resistant to attacks. Direct explosions do nothing against it, Chouji's own effort to harm Kakuzu was easily countered by this jutsu. Whilst Diamond is not completely impervious, Kisame lacks the tools to harm this defense. His raw strength is outclassed by the jutsu and the force of waves is easily dissipated by the Earth Technique (elemental advantage).

I was wondering why a single person didn't raise the point about Doton domu possessing the theoretical risk to be absorbed by Sameahda. Kakuzu has shown himself to be a keen analyst in battle, once he realizes Samehada is absorbing his Doton Domu, he could reserve it for defensive purposes against Kisame's Water Ninjutsu. His age and experience is also another key thing, being 91 years of age he has possibly come across the sword before, heard about it or at least seen chakra draining abilities similar to it.

Samehada Fusion mode is a devastating thing indeed, but as with any jutsu it has exploitable flaws. If used without a Water Dome, then Kisame gains the weakness to fire from Samehada and possibly losing his regenerative abilities due to him and Samehada now sharing one chakra supply. When used in conjunction with his Water Dome, then Kakuzu's separate masks act as a sufficient counter.

How Kakuzu counters Kisame's Water Dome Prison: His Kisame's dome has proven itself to be a troublesome and almost impossible jutsu for most shinobi to counter effectively. However it has shown one slight but exploitable weakness which Kakuzu's arsenal meets the criteria for. His ability to split into 5 seperate bodies, with each of his hearts manifesting their own body which are capable of flight. Through the use of this ability alone, they would be out of the range of the prison. Even then, if they were caught they could travel in separate directions, with Kisame undoubtedly going after Kakuzu. Once the other hearts escape the prison and Kakuzu "dies" due to a deprivation of oxygen, the hearts have shown the ability to reintegrate back into his body and revive him after he's dead.

Killer Bee's tactic to exploit a key weakness in Kisame's Water Prison + Samehada Fusion Mode

How Kakuzu counters Kisame's Great Shark Water Bullet: Kisame's attack is a guided projectile which he maintains through manually controlling it towards the target. Kakuzu could momentarily defend with a high scale elemental blast and then proceed to hit Kisame with one of his other masks without the fear of Samehada absorbing it.

Even then, Kakuzu could defend against it with a stall tactic with one of his hearts, and proceed to either kill Samehada who is unattended or attack Kisame while he is immobile.

I highly doubt Kisame whilst fused with Samehada can absorb Ninjutsu through his skin, i agree probably on a minuscule scale but nothing exceeding Itachi's Great Fire Ball Technique in magnitude.

Furthermore, Kisame forcing Samehada to absorb Kakuzu's Fire and Wind infusion may prove to be physically impossible due to not being able to eat and process an attack of that magnitude.

On a final note, while i agree Kisame could cut through Kakuzu's threads, he could easily be overwhelmed by the amount of offensives provided by each individual/bunch of thread(s). Kakuzu's v1 Transformation mode was shown to have extremely fast threads (able to catch Kakashi, Chouji and Ino all simultaneously), which could be used to hold down Kisame long enough to achieve a direct hit with his merged masks.

Kakuzu restraining Team 10 and Kakashi following up with a lethal Katon Technique

*DevilishChakra, this is also a counter towards your question

[EjBlack]

@DeViliShChild Side Note: Sorry for that. (My quoting seem to be not working right now so imma do a quick reply.)

1. http://www.narutobase.net/forums/sho...d.php?t=261109

- I made a thread about this on how we can't ultimately say that this mask was Earth just because he didn't use it again. So from here WE are still speculating but trying to make a logical conclusion of which is which.

Also scans of him switching his stragtagey and possible that he doesn't want to/ no need for it anymore:


"Kakashi Penetrated his TRUE ability"

So...

He wanted to demonstrate his other power.


Ok, but how about when he was on the verge or death, why didn't he use it agaisnt Naruto to block his Rasengan?

Answer:
-HE had no knowledge on what it can do. So his strategy was:

- And remember Kakshi is here ready to Raikri him too, if it is possible that he opens it up again. Any to simplify it, he wanted to fight Long-Range.

2.
Kakashi explains that each have their own stash of chakra on their own.

[EjBlack]

(Oops, I took the first pic out of context... But still doesn't mess up my point. ._.

[DeViliShChild]

Doton Domu is hardly the perfect defense, but it has shown to make Kakuzu highly resistant to attacks. Direct explosions do nothing against it, Chouji's own effort to harm Kakuzu was easily countered by this jutsu. Whilst Diamond is not completely impervious, Kisame lacks the tools to harm this defense. His raw strength is outclassed by the jutsu and the force of waves is easily dissipated by the Earth Technique (elemental advantage).

I was wondering why a single person didn't raise the point about Doton domu possessing the theoretical risk to be absorbed by Sameahda due to it being chakra based. Kakuzu has shown himself to be a keen analyst in battle, once he realizes Samehada is absorbing his Doton Domu, he could reserve it for defensive purposes against Kisame's Water Ninjutsu. His age and experience is also another key thing, being 91 years of age he has possibly come across the sword before, heard about it or at least seen chakra draining abilities similar to it.

Samehada Fusion mode is a devastating thing indeed, but as with any jutsu it has exploitable flaws. If used without a Water Dome, then Kisame gains the weakness to fire from Samehada and possibly losing his regenerative abilities due to him and Samehada now sharing one chakra supply. When used in conjunction with his Water Dome, then Kakuzu's separate masks act as a sufficient counter.

How Kakuzu counters Kisame's Water Dome Prison: His Kisame's dome has proven itself to be a troublesome and almost impossible jutsu for most shinobi to counter effectively. However it has shown one slight but exploitable weakness which Kakuzu's arsenal meets the criteria for. His ability to split into 5 seperate bodies, with each of his hearts manifesting their own body which are capable of flight. Through the use of this ability alone, they would be out of the range of the prison. Even then, if they were caught they could travel in separate directions, with Kisame undoubtedly going after Kakuzu. Once the other hearts escape the prison and Kakuzu "dies" due to a deprivation of oxygen, the hearts have shown the ability to reintegrate back into his body and revive him after he's dead.

Killer Bee's tactic to exploit a key weakness in Kisame's Water Prison + Samehada Fusion Mode

How Kakuzu counters Kisame's Great Shark Water Bullet: Kisame's attack is a guided projectile which he maintains through manually controlling it towards the target. Kakuzu could momentarily defend with a high scale elemental blast and then proceed to hit Kisame with one of his other masks without the fear of Samehada absorbing it.

Even then, Kakuzu could defend against it with a stall tactic with one of his hearts, and proceed to either kill Samehada who is unattended or attack Kisame while he is immobile.

I highly doubt Kisame whilst fused with Samehada can absorb Ninjutsu through his skin, i agree probably on a minuscule scale but nothing exceeding Itachi's Great Fire Ball Technique in magnitude.

Furthermore, Kisame forcing Samehada to absorb Kakuzu's Fire and Wind infusion may prove to be physically impossible due to not being able to eat and process an attack of that magnitude.

On a final note, while i agree Kisame could cut through Kakuzu's threads, he could easily be overwhelmed by the amount of offensives provided by each individual/bunch of thread(s). Kakuzu's v1 Transformation mode was shown to have extremely fast threads (able to catch Kakashi, Chouji and Ino all simultaneously), which could be used to hold down Kisame long enough to achieve a direct hit with his merged masks.

Kakuzu restraining Team 10 and Kakashi following up with a lethal Katon Technique

*DevilishChakra, this is also a counter towards your question

Im still a little hazy on how this answers my question.

Water dome +fused with Samahada means nothing Kakuzu does can hit Kisame.

If Kakuzu's main body is trapped in water and hearts are outside, then nothing they do can cut through THAT much water. Lightening would be absorbed by the time it hit the middle.

All things inside his water dome are drained of chakara. (http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/472/9)

If the hearts are inside it then they will just be drained till death anyway just like kakuzu's main body

[Joki]

Doton Domu is hardly the perfect defense, but it has shown to make Kakuzu highly resistant to attacks. Direct explosions do nothing against it, Chouji's own effort to harm Kakuzu was easily countered by this jutsu. Whilst Diamond is not completely impervious, Kisame lacks the tools to harm this defense. His raw strength is outclassed by the jutsu and the force of waves is easily dissipated by the Earth Technique (elemental advantage).

I was wondering why a single person didn't raise the point about Doton domu possessing the theoretical risk to be absorbed by Sameahda due to it being chakra based. Kakuzu has shown himself to be a keen analyst in battle, once he realizes Samehada is absorbing his Doton Domu, he could reserve it for defensive purposes against Kisame's Water Ninjutsu. His age and experience is also another key thing, being 91 years of age he has possibly come across the sword before, heard about it or at least seen chakra draining abilities similar to it.

Samehada Fusion mode is a devastating thing indeed, but as with any jutsu it has exploitable flaws. If used without a Water Dome, then Kisame gains the weakness to fire from Samehada and possibly losing his regenerative abilities due to him and Samehada now sharing one chakra supply. When used in conjunction with his Water Dome, then Kakuzu's separate masks act as a sufficient counter.

How Kakuzu counters Kisame's Water Dome Prison: His Kisame's dome has proven itself to be a troublesome and almost impossible jutsu for most shinobi to counter effectively. However it has shown one slight but exploitable weakness which Kakuzu's arsenal meets the criteria for. His ability to split into 5 seperate bodies, with each of his hearts manifesting their own body which are capable of flight. Through the use of this ability alone, they would be out of the range of the prison. Even then, if they were caught they could travel in separate directions, with Kisame undoubtedly going after Kakuzu. Once the other hearts escape the prison and Kakuzu "dies" due to a deprivation of oxygen, the hearts have shown the ability to reintegrate back into his body and revive him after he's dead.

Killer Bee's tactic to exploit a key weakness in Kisame's Water Prison + Samehada Fusion Mode

How Kakuzu counters Kisame's Great Shark Water Bullet: Kisame's attack is a guided projectile which he maintains through manually controlling it towards the target. Kakuzu could momentarily defend with a high scale elemental blast and then proceed to hit Kisame with one of his other masks without the fear of Samehada absorbing it.

Even then, Kakuzu could defend against it with a stall tactic with one of his hearts, and proceed to either kill Samehada who is unattended or attack Kisame while he is immobile.

I highly doubt Kisame whilst fused with Samehada can absorb Ninjutsu through his skin, i agree probably on a minuscule scale but nothing exceeding Itachi's Great Fire Ball Technique in magnitude.

Furthermore, Kisame forcing Samehada to absorb Kakuzu's Fire and Wind infusion may prove to be physically impossible due to not being able to eat and process an attack of that magnitude.

On a final note, while i agree Kisame could cut through Kakuzu's threads, he could easily be overwhelmed by the amount of offensives provided by each individual/bunch of thread(s). Kakuzu's v1 Transformation mode was shown to have extremely fast threads (able to catch Kakashi, Chouji and Ino all simultaneously), which could be used to hold down Kisame long enough to achieve a direct hit with his merged masks.

Kakuzu restraining Team 10 and Kakashi following up with a lethal Katon Technique

*DevilishChakra, this is also a counter towards your question

Ok, I'll argue with you. I didn't read many of your other posts though so maybe there's stuff you already expanded on that I don't know about yet. I want to talk about water dome and shark missile mainly, but imo shark missile is completely overkill and Kisame doesn't need it because if he used it it would destroy Kakuzu, a guy who's based around multiple massive ninjutsu blasts is horrible against shark missile for obvious reasons.

First is your counters to water dome:

Why is Killer Bee's plan valid here? When Kakuzu's masks all go in different directions with the idea that Kisame can only chase one of them, they will have no way to hurt Kisame, more so in the water their techniques won't be usable in the first place. Not to mention, their chakra is being constantly drained and Kisame's stamina will neveer ever run out due to that, and if they stay in the dome they're finished, even if Kisame simply continues chasing them and doesn't attack.

So with that said what stops Kisame from just ignoring the masks and going straight for Kakuzu? It's not like they can hurt him anyway, and if they're running far away to get out of the dome, they would have no way of actually hurting Kisame...and you know what happens when the real Kakuzu actually dies.

You neglected to mention the next page:

Where Kisame actually did pick apart that plan quite easily and can do the same here. Plus, what if Kisame did go for one of the masks and let Kakuzu and the others escape from the dome momentarily? Their objective is still "kill Kisame", they can't just run away from the battle and get a win. Meanwhile fighting vs the dome and Kisame will be certain death.

Now your counter to shark missile:

I'll need more elaboration from you since you didn't explain too much to how Kakuzu counters it. What you did say was that Kakuzu can "use a high level elemental blast to defend" and then "another mask will attack Kisame without fear of Samehada", there's a few problems there. The first is that he should fear samehada, considering he would actually have it to heal him this time around(which brings up another topic) and they should most likely be surrounded in a lake, color me shocked if Kisame doesn't use his most in character technique here.

The 2nd problem is, well, like I said, they're surrounded by a lake. Daikodan dwarfs Kisame completely and makes him look like a dot in size, the shark missile and his water dome surrounds him in every direction for quite some time, any elemental blasts that attempt to hurt Kisame would just be absorbed.

Now the real problem with your counter is simply the mechanics of daikodan which I find pretty obvious. How will Kakuzu use a high scale elemental blast to survive? Not only does he most likely have no idea how Daikodan works, but I'll just link the page:

Its mechanic is that it eats all ninjutsu to become stronger. Kakuzu's jutsu will just become fuel for the giant shark missile, there's a reason Gai's taijutsu technique didn't do anything. The stronger the ninjutsu the more fuel for Daikodan and it'd destroy Kakuzu, his level of Doton defense won't protect him against that blast especially when he'll likely use fire/wind combo to try and counter it.

Like I said when I mentioned Kisame actually has samehada here, it brings up the other topic of Kisame's durability/stamina.

He didn't have samehada with him and still tanked the Hirudora and could still move and talk as normal. And with KB he had his entire chest blown off. For the 1st case, he never actually had Samehada with him, if he did he would have regenerated to full health in moments just like with Killer Bee when he actually did have samehada.

No technique Kakuzu has is anywhere near that scale, not to mention Kisame broke out of the mokuton prison with ease, and Yamato's mokuton restrained KN4's physical strength before. This Kisame was just hit with hirudora and would have survived despite not having samehada. Not only will samehada regenerate him or potentially absorb all of Kakuzu's attacks but Kisame could outright tank some or dodge them. His reaction speed was enough to dodge a raiton infused pencil at point blank range 2 times, and considering the battle will be fought in Kisame's personal ocean he's far faster underwater anyway and Kakuzu's attacks will be pretty useless here.

If it comes to a battle of endurance, it's pretty obvious anyway, but all Kisame has to do is follow Kakuzu in his water dome for an easy win. There's literally no way for Kakuzu to kill Kisame in that case and Kisame will just continue to drain all of Kakuzu's chakra until he dies. There's lots of stuff I didn't mention like Kisame's water clones, water prisons, 1000 sharks, etc. but I didn't want to discuss those here, plus like I said originally I doubt any of those are actually needed since it makes them overkill judging by water dome and daikodan's hax vs this particular opponent.

And yeah I spoiler tagged my post to make it seem smaller than it is lololol, and maybe I'll actually read the rest of the thread later since I basically just checked the last page and hit quote on NKs latest post.

tl;dr what the guy above me said.

[Megan Terumi]

didn't read the debate because giant shark missile

[Frikid]

i am surprised.

but really, i can't see kakuzu winning when he got fooled by a mere shadow clone of naruto.
he fought hashirama, the person with the ability to make perfect wood clones , he survived against that guy and yet got fooled by a shadow clone. :shrug:

but it is the truth and i have to get over it.

i believe kisame would win because he showed much more maturity and intelligence than kakuzu.

[DeViliShChild]

@DeViliShChild Side Note: Sorry for that. (My quoting seem to be not working right now so imma do a quick reply.)

1. http://www.narutobase.net/forums/sho...d.php?t=261109

- I made a thread about this on how we can't ultimately say that this mask was Earth just because he didn't use it again. So from here WE are still speculating but trying to make a logical conclusion of which is which.

Also scans of him switching his stragtagey and possible that he doesn't want to/ no need for it anymore:


"Kakashi Penetrated his TRUE ability"

So...

He wanted to demonstrate his other power.


Ok, but how about when he was on the verge or death, why didn't he use it agaisnt Naruto to block his Rasengan?

Answer:
-HE had no knowledge on what it can do. So his strategy was:

- And remember Kakshi is here ready to Raikri him too, if it is possible that he opens it up again. Any to simplify it, he wanted to fight Long-Range.

2.
Kakashi explains that each have their own stash of chakra on their own.

5 elements. 5 hearts. There is a direct correlation. -1 heart = -1 element. So yes we can conclude that with certainty.

[EjBlack]

i am surprised.

but really, i can't see kakuzu winning when he got fooled by a mere shadow clone of naruto.
he fought hashirama, the person with the ability to make perfect wood clones , he survived against that guy and yet got fooled by a shadow clone. :shrug:

but it is the truth and i have to get over it.

i believe kisame would win because he showed much more maturity and intelligence than kakuzu.

Idk why people bring this up and discredit Naruto and Kakuzu.





That fact that Kakuzu already analyze his moves and was ready to counter it. It was HIS fault for OVER-ANALYZING.

For Naruto: Who would of though that he would sacrifice his own body to mix-in with the Shadow Clone and get fodderize with them.



The fact that he took a chance is why I give props to Naruto.

Stop making it look like he was weak because of it. Kakuzu simply ignored the shadow clones because he can easily owned them if he wanted to.

[Negative Knight]

Im still a little hazy on how this answers my question.

Water dome +fused with Samahada means nothing Kakuzu does can hit Kisame.

If Kakuzu's main body is trapped in water and hearts are outside, then nothing they do can cut through THAT much water. Lightening would be absorbed by the time it hit the middle.

All things inside his water dome are drained of chakara. (http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/472/9)

If the hearts are inside it then they will just be drained till death anyway just like kakuzu's main body

That is exactly why Kakuzu escaping the Prison would be essential, in my previous post i've already explained how that can be achieved. Kisame going for Kakuzu while the masks escape will inevitable result in Kakuzu's death, that i agree with.

However once the Water Dome is dispelled and the other hearts escape the prison and Kakuzu "dies" due to a deprivation of oxygen, the hearts have shown the ability to reintegrate back into his body and revive him after he's dead.

Either way, Kakuzu will survive with a few hearts intact so he can continue with the fight.

Ok, I'll argue with you. I didn't read many of your other posts though so maybe there's stuff you already expanded on that I don't know about yet. I want to talk about water dome and shark missile mainly, but imo shark missile is completely overkill and Kisame doesn't need it because if he used it it would destroy Kakuzu, a guy who's based around multiple massive ninjutsu blasts is horrible against shark missile for obvious reasons.

First is your counters to water dome:

Why is Killer Bee's plan valid here? When Kakuzu's masks all go in different directions with the idea that Kisame can only chase one of them, they will have no way to hurt Kisame, more so in the water their techniques won't be usable in the first place. Not to mention, their chakra is being constantly drained and Kisame's stamina will neveer ever run out due to that, and if they stay in the dome they're finished, even if Kisame simply continues chasing them and doesn't attack.

So with that said what stops Kisame from just ignoring the masks and going straight for Kakuzu? It's not like they can hurt him anyway, and if they're running far away to get out of the dome, they would have no way of actually hurting Kisame...and you know what happens when the real Kakuzu actually dies.

You neglected to mention the next page:

Where Kisame actually did pick apart that plan quite easily and can do the same here. Plus, what if Kisame did go for one of the masks and let Kakuzu and the others escape from the dome momentarily? Their objective is still "kill Kisame", they can't just run away from the battle and get a win. Meanwhile fighting vs the dome and Kisame will be certain death.

Now your counter to shark missile:

I'll need more elaboration from you since you didn't explain too much to how Kakuzu counters it. What you did say was that Kakuzu can "use a high level elemental blast to defend" and then "another mask will attack Kisame without fear of Samehada", there's a few problems there. The first is that he should fear samehada, considering he would actually have it to heal him this time around(which brings up another topic) and they should most likely be surrounded in a lake, color me shocked if Kisame doesn't use his most in character technique here.

The 2nd problem is, well, like I said, they're surrounded by a lake. Daikodan dwarfs Kisame completely and makes him look like a dot in size, the shark missile and his water dome surrounds him in every direction for quite some time, any elemental blasts that attempt to hurt Kisame would just be absorbed.

Now the real problem with your counter is simply the mechanics of daikodan which I find pretty obvious. How will Kakuzu use a high scale elemental blast to survive? Not only does he most likely have no idea how Daikodan works, but I'll just link the page:

Its mechanic is that it eats all ninjutsu to become stronger. Kakuzu's jutsu will just become fuel for the giant shark missile, there's a reason Gai's taijutsu technique didn't do anything. The stronger the ninjutsu the more fuel for Daikodan and it'd destroy Kakuzu, his level of Doton defense won't protect him against that blast especially when he'll likely use fire/wind combo to try and counter it.

Like I said when I mentioned Kisame actually has samehada here, it brings up the other topic of Kisame's durability/stamina.

He didn't have samehada with him and still tanked the Hirudora and could still move and talk as normal. And with KB he had his entire chest blown off. For the 1st case, he never actually had Samehada with him, if he did he would have regenerated to full health in moments just like with Killer Bee when he actually did have samehada.

No technique Kakuzu has is anywhere near that scale, not to mention Kisame broke out of the mokuton prison with ease, and Yamato's mokuton restrained KN4's physical strength before. This Kisame was just hit with hirudora and would have survived despite not having samehada. Not only will samehada regenerate him or potentially absorb all of Kakuzu's attacks but Kisame could outright tank some or dodge them. His reaction speed was enough to dodge a raiton infused pencil at point blank range 2 times, and considering the battle will be fought in Kisame's personal ocean he's far faster underwater anyway and Kakuzu's attacks will be pretty useless here.

If it comes to a battle of endurance, it's pretty obvious anyway, but all Kisame has to do is follow Kakuzu in his water dome for an easy win. There's literally no way for Kakuzu to kill Kisame in that case and Kisame will just continue to drain all of Kakuzu's chakra until he dies. There's lots of stuff I didn't mention like Kisame's water clones, water prisons, 1000 sharks, etc. but I didn't want to discuss those here, plus like I said originally I doubt any of those are actually needed since it makes them overkill judging by water dome and daikodan's hax vs this particular opponent.

And yeah I spoiler tagged my post to make it seem smaller than it is lololol, and maybe I'll actually read the rest of the thread later since I basically just checked the last page and hit quote on NKs latest post.

Killer Bee's plan isn't a replica of this scenario, Kisame wanted him alive and knew Killer Bee wanted to save the other two. Kisame's own killing intent, spiteful nature and wanting to capture Killer Bee meant he could achieve his objective and have "fun". In this scenario, Kisame will have to pursue one of the hearts or Kakuzu, where he would undoubtedly follow Kakuzu due to the lack of knowledge that he can revive himself at a later point.

The Masks flight ability lead me to believe they themselves might not even be caught in the dome to begin with.

Alright i'll lead onto my own trump cards now. These have already been stated in the thread but i'll eloborate into them further.

-Versatility of Earth Grudge Fear Transformations v1 and v2

These insanely powerful dark thread transformations are often overlooked when considering Kakuzu’s moveset. To different degrees of effectiveness respectively, they grant him superiority in close combat which Kakuzu could use to his own advantage by:

-Overwhelming Kisame with a sheer amount of assaults from his threads
-A restraint mechanism which could be combed with powerful ninjutsu projectiles from his masks
-A pseudo form of flight by swinging from one part of the terrain to another
-Use them as prosthetic flexible limbs to hold off Kisame's own attacks whilst simultaneously attacking himself

Kakuzu's Earth Grudge Transformation v2

Kakuzu was shown to use his v2 (Long range) transformation to perch himself on higher parts of the terrain, which could be used as a escape mechanism from Kisame’s Water Dome technique or even as shielding himself from large waves of water.

Kakashi also commented on the threads being far too fast to escape from when he was initially caught which could potentially mean it could act in a similar way to Mifune’s laido technique, granted to a much lesser extent, to prevent Kisame from forming handseals and using his larger scale ninjutsu attacks.

When merged with his masks, Kakuzu has shown that they retain the ability to act on his command, suggesting that he could engage Kisame in Taijutsu whilst using high scale ninjutsu which would be impossible for Samehada to absorb completely. I’ll return to this specific point later on.

Kakuzu's Dark Threads Acting like extra Limbs for combat

Kisame’s reliance on Samehada could be exploited as a severe weakness by Kakuzu, his transformation would enable him to restrain the sword and succeed in either landing a direct hit on Kisame or separating him from his sword which he could seize as a opportunity to land a fatal katon/fuuton infused blast which Kisame wouldn’t be able to regenerate from due to his separation from his sword.

On a final note, Kakuzu has shown time and time again the lethal purposes his dark threads could be used for, primarily through choking his opponents to death on repeated occasions, and ripping through their bodies with this threads, deep enough so he could integrate their heart into his own system instantaneously. This could possibly suggest an alternative use of Kakuzu's threads to make lethal hits on Kisame, amputate whole limbs or even kill Samehada.

With these transformations Kakuzu undoubtedly far exceeds Kisame's ability in raw combat, with literally 100s of offensives that can be created in mere moments due to the sheer amount of threads. Earlier i mentioned the lethality of the threads, but didn't explore it much. They've already shown enough strength to rip through bodies with relative ease in order to extract hearts when combined with Kakuzu's V2 Transformation he could use this to an even higher degree.

Kakuzu attempting to ensnare Naruto with his V2 Transformation

Against a method like the one shown in the 2nd panel above would render Kisame powerless, all of the individual threads holding him in place long enough to tear through his body and puncture/rip out a vital organ, probably in order to replace a heart he lost through the course of the battle (an assumption). Kisame's regeneration capabilities do go far i admit that, but they're not on a scale high enough to regenerate missing organs. Even then i'm assuming Samehada would regenerate him as this method is not a chakra intensive one where Samehada is provided with fuel chakra to heal him.

Also i feel we're digressing from the opening stages of the fight, Kisame would undoubtedly have the advantage with Suiton Daikdon. But i feel its a weak counter to someone like Kakuzu, he has a presence in five locations at once, if the missile is directed at Kakuzu, he leaves himself entirely open to be hit by all the other hearts. Whilst Kakuzu would sustain some damage, it shouldn't prove to be lethal due to the nature of the technique. Whether i'm wrong in that assumption or not is covered by his remaining hearts just reintegrating back into his body.

In the opening stages of the fight, Kakuzu is at a much higher advantage than Kisame. Attempting to block all attacks from different angles form Kakuzu's masks would be far too unsatisfactory, Samehada is often used at a shield but with four different offensives at once, it can only absorb one at most, with the others becoming free hits. I've already explained earlier how this could possibly turn out, the best scenario in Kisame's favour would be to stop the lightning offensive and let the others deal damage, otherwise he wouldn't be able to absorb the other attacks completely anyway.

The reason this is effective is mainly down to the reliance his regeneration has on Samehada's chakra absorption, it heals him in direct proportion to the amount of chakra he absorbed from the attack. Killer Bee was a special case as he had chakra levels of a Bijuu, Nagato's Preta path even restored his youth after draining Killer Bee. Absorbing one of Kakuzu's attacks in exchange for the other three landing would hardly balance out, with Kisame remaining with serious damage as a result. All of this is assuming that Samehada isn't killed in the process of being struck multiple times.

i am surprised.

but really, i can't see kakuzu winning when he got fooled by a mere shadow clone of naruto.
he fought hashirama, the person with the ability to make perfect wood clones , he survived against that guy and yet got fooled by a shadow clone. :shrug:

but it is the truth and i have to get over it.

i believe kisame would win because he showed much more maturity and intelligence than kakuzu.

EjBlack already explained why Kakuzu was hit by Naruto.

Honestly, with Kisame being my favourite character (Kakuzu is a close 2nd) i have to admit that Kakuzu is far more mature, serious and intelligent than him.

[Joki]

That is exactly why Kakuzu escaping the Prison would be essential, in my previous post i've already explained how that can be achieved. Kisame going for Kakuzu while the masks escape will inevitable result in Kakuzu's death, that i agree with.

However once the Water Dome is dispelled and the other hearts escape the prison and Kakuzu "dies" due to a deprivation of oxygen, the hearts have shown the ability to reintegrate back into his body and revive him after he's dead.

Either way, Kakuzu will survive with a few hearts intact so he can continue with the fight.



Killer Bee's plan isn't a replica of this scenario, Kisame wanted him alive and knew Killer Bee wanted to save the other two. Kisame's own killing intent, spiteful nature and not wanting to Killer Bee meant he could achieve his objective and have "fun". In this scenario, Kisame will have to pursue one of the hearts or Kakuzu, where he would undoubtedly follow Kakuzu due to the lack of knowledge that he can revive himself at a later point.

The Masks flight ability lead me to believe they themselves might not even be caught in the dome to begin with.

Alright i'll lead onto my own trump cards now. These have already been stated in the thread but i'll eloborate into them further.

-Versatility of Earth Grudge Fear Transformations v1 and v2

These insanely powerful dark thread transformations are often overlooked when considering Kakuzu’s moveset. To different degrees of effectiveness respectively, they grant him superiority in close combat which Kakuzu could use to his own advantage by:

-Overwhelming Kisame with a sheer amount of assaults from his threads
-A restraint mechanism which could be combed with powerful ninjutsu projectiles from his masks
-A pseudo form of flight by swinging from one part of the terrain to another
-Use them as prosthetic flexible limbs to hold off Kisame's own attacks whilst simultaneously attacking himself

Kakuzu's Earth Grudge Transformation v2

Kakuzu was shown to use his v2 (Long range) transformation to perch himself on higher parts of the terrain, which could be used as a escape mechanism from Kisame’s Water Dome technique or even as shielding himself from large waves of water.

Kakashi also commented on the threads being far too fast to escape from when he was initially caught which could potentially mean it could act in a similar way to Mifune’s laido technique, granted to a much lesser extent, to prevent Kisame from forming handseals and using his larger scale ninjutsu attacks.

When merged with his masks, Kakuzu has shown that they retain the ability to act on his command, suggesting that he could engage Kisame in Taijutsu whilst using high scale ninjutsu which would be impossible for Samehada to absorb completely. I’ll return to this specific point later on.

Kakuzu's Dark Threads Acting like extra Limbs for combat

Kisame’s reliance on Samehada could be exploited as a severe weakness by Kakuzu, his transformation would enable him to restrain the sword and succeed in either landing a direct hit on Kisame or separating him from his sword which he could seize as a opportunity to land a fatal katon/fuuton infused blast which Kisame wouldn’t be able to regenerate from due to his separation from his sword.

On a final note, Kakuzu has shown time and time again the lethal purposes his dark threads could be used for, primarily through choking his opponents to death on repeated occasions, and ripping through their bodies with this threads, deep enough so he could integrate their heart into his own system instantaneously. This could possibly suggest an alternative use of Kakuzu's threads to make lethal hits on Kisame, amputate whole limbs or even kill Samehada.

With these transformations Kakuzu undoubtedly far exceeds Kisame's ability in raw combat, with literally 100s of offensives that can be created in mere moments due to the sheer amount of threads. Earlier i mentioned the lethality of the threads, but didn't explore it much. They've already shown enough strength to rip through bodies with relative ease in order to extract hearts when combined with Kakuzu's V2 Transformation he could use this to an even higher degree.

Kakuzu attempting to ensnare Naruto with his V2 Transformation

Against a method like the one shown in the 2nd panel above would render Kisame powerless, all of the individual threads holding him in place long enough to tear through his body and puncture/rip out a vital organ, probably in order to replace a heart he lost through the course of the battle (an assumption). Kisame's regeneration capabilities do go far i admit that, but they're not on a scale high enough to regenerate missing organs. Even then i'm assuming Samehada would regenerate him as this method is not a chakra intensive one where Samehada is provided with fuel chakra to heal him.

Also i feel we're digressing from the opening stages of the fight, Kisame would undoubtedly have the advantage with Suiton Daikdon. But i feel its a weak counter to someone like Kakuzu, he has a presence in five locations at once, if the missile is directed at Kakuzu, he leaves himself entirely open to be hit by all the other hearts. Whilst Kakuzu would sustain some damage, it shouldn't prove to be lethal due to the nature of the technique. Whether i'm wrong in that assumption or not is covered by his remaining hearts just reintegrating back into his body.

In the opening stages of the fight, Kakuzu is at a much higher advantage than Kisame. Attempting to block all attacks from different angles form Kakuzu's masks would be far too unsatisfactory, Samehada is often used at a shield but with four different offensives at once, it can only absorb one at most, with the others becoming free hits. I've already explained earlier how this could possibly turn out, the best scenario in Kisame's favour would be to stop the lightning offensive and let the others deal damage, otherwise he wouldn't be able to absorb the other attacks completely anyway.

The reason this is effective is mainly down to the reliance his regeneration has on Samehada's chakra absorption, it heals him in direct proportion to the amount of chakra he absorbed from the attack. Killer Bee was a special case as he had chakra levels of a Bijuu, Nagato's Preta path even restored his youth after draining Killer Bee. Absorbing one of Kakuzu's attacks in exchange for the other three landing would hardly balance out, with Kisame remaining with serious damage as a result. All of this is assuming that Samehada isn't killed in the process of being struck multiple times.




EjBlack already explained why Kakuzu was hit by Naruto.

Honestly, with Kisame being my favourite character (Kakuzu is a close 2nd) i have to admit that Kakuzu is far more mature, serious and intelligent than him.

Exactly what I'm trying to say., If he goes after Kakuzu, what does he plan to do when Kisame drains all of his chakra and kills him? The masks still have to traverse through the dome and revive Kakuzu. He has no way to hurt Kakuzu within the dome still, and Daikodan is far too massive for "Kakuzu has 5 different lives within his masks so being hit with a chakra absorbing monster blast that would one shot Kakuzu" to be a valid counter.

None of his "V2" transformation actually is an effective counter to daikodan or water dome, while they're nice and all, it won't stop Kisame from continuously absorbing his chakra within the dome or rendering every ninjutsu tech useless with Daikodan or his multiple other jutsus like 1000 sharks. More so you keep emphasizing how his threads are useful to grab Kisame, which is great because Kisame was hit by threads and used his ability to absorb the opponent's chakra through them instead of the intended opposite effect.

Plus, what happened to samehada and Kisame's enhanced speed here? It only took a few seconds to take a full health 100% chakra perfect jin Killer Bee for Samehada to suck all of its chakra and give it to Kisame, making Killer Bee lightheaded and almost faint due to chakra loss. I think it's fairly obvious who has more chakra between KB and Kakuzu. That's also the reason Kisame is the bijuu without tails and the greatest bijuu hunter in Akatsuki.

His masks aren't all that strong as well, one hit from Choji or any basic jutsu would destroy the mask and heart, they aren't 5 copies of an elite Kakuzu level shinobi, they're just masks with 1 jutsu each. 1000 sharks is far too vast an attack, it required Gai to resort to Hirudora, as cool as Kakuzu's attacks are, Daikodan and Kisame's arsenal are far too much for them especially given the above.

Which like I said before, as useful as Kakuzu's released thread form is, it still doesn't change the fact it's not all that useful vs water dome and it can't do anything against Daikodan. So I still don't see any effective counters to Kisame's arsenal or any at all. Water domes also huge, far larger than Kakuzu's threads could reach to "pull him out" like you think...plus if his objective is to beat Kisame here, he can't just keep running away. How does Kakuzu hope to win exactly?

[EjBlack]

Exactly what I'm trying to say., If he goes after Kakuzu, what does he plan to do when Kisame drains all of his chakra and kills him? The masks still have to traverse through the dome and revive Kakuzu. He has no way to hurt Kakuzu within the dome still, and Daikodan is far too massive for "Kakuzu has 5 different lives within his masks so being hit with a chakra absorbing monster blast that would one shot Kakuzu" to be a valid counter.

None of his "V2" transformation actually is an effective counter to daikodan or water dome, while they're nice and all, it won't stop Kisame from continuously absorbing his chakra within the dome or rendering every ninjutsu tech useless with Daikodan or his multiple other jutsus like 1000 sharks. More so you keep emphasizing how his threads are useful to grab Kisame, which is great because Kisame was hit by threads and used his ability to absorb the opponent's chakra through them instead of the intended opposite effect.

Plus, what happened to samehada and Kisame's enhanced speed here? It only took a few seconds to take a full health 100% chakra perfect jin Killer Bee for Samehada to suck all of its chakra and give it to Kisame, making Killer Bee lightheaded and almost faint due to chakra loss. I think it's fairly obvious who has more chakra between KB and Kakuzu. That's also the reason Kisame is the bijuu without tails and the greatest bijuu hunter in Akatsuki.

His masks aren't all that strong as well, one hit from Choji or any basic jutsu would destroy the mask and heart, they aren't 5 copies of an elite Kakuzu level shinobi, they're just masks with 1 jutsu each. 1000 sharks is far too vast an attack, it required Gai to resort to Hirudora, as cool as Kakuzu's attacks are, Daikodan and Kisame's arsenal are far too much for them especially given the above.

Which like I said before, as useful as Kakuzu's released thread form is, it still doesn't change the fact it's not all that useful vs water dome and it can't do anything against Daikodan. So I still don't see any effective counters to Kisame's arsenal or any at all. Water domes also huge, far larger than Kakuzu's threads could reach to "pull him out" like you think...plus if his objective is to beat Kisame here, he can't just keep running away. How does Kakuzu hope to win exactly?

I think you might want to re read his argument again some of the questions are in repeat that are already been answered.

I would like to make a Side note on one of you points.

2nd paragrah. Those are two different threads. Kakuzu's is merely focus through straining and piecing. The other guy is use to POUR chakra INTO the opponent to paralyze him.

[Joki]

I think you might want to re read his argument again some of the questions are in repeat that are already been answered.

I would like to make a Side note on one of you points.

2nd paragrah. Those are two different threads. Kakuzu's is merely focus through straining and piecing. The other guy is use to POUR chakra INTO the opponent to paralyze him.

..no they haven't. Inside his water dome Kakuzu's chakra is constantly being drained, Considering Kisame had the ability to change the entire jutsu's mechanics to support him and suck its chakra, it's far from a stretch.

Since you focused on an extremely miniscule afterthought in my post it's pretty clear you don't have any realistic counters of Kakuzu's to water dome or daikodan or similar either.

some of the questions are in repeat that are already been answered.

Like?

[6 Paths of Pain]

I think Kisame can beat him but nice thread as always.

[Simple Math]

since i think this can go either way, i can argue for both of them.. which one should it be?

[Negative Knight]

..no they haven't. Inside his water dome Kakuzu's chakra is constantly being drained, Considering Kisame had the ability to change the entire jutsu's mechanics to support him and suck its chakra, it's far from a stretch.

Since you focused on an extremely miniscule afterthought in my post it's pretty clear you don't have any realistic counters of Kakuzu's to water dome or daikodan or similar either.


Like?

Daikodan was countered in my previous post, the Water Dome also (he escapes and revives himself with reintergration). After that i shifted the focus onto the beginning stages of the fight.

Disregard those two techniques for now as i've countered them already, counter the new arguments i raised after that.

since i think this can go either way, i can argue for both of them.. which one should it be?

Kakuzu, the underdog is always more fun

[UchihaMadara01]

Good description of what you think.

But personally, i'd say Kisame wins.

[EjBlack]

..no they haven't. Inside his water dome Kakuzu's chakra is constantly being drained, Considering Kisame had the ability to change the entire jutsu's mechanics to support him and suck its chakra, it's far from a stretch.

Since you focused on an extremely miniscule afterthought in my post it's pretty clear you don't have any realistic counters of Kakuzu's to water dome or daikodan or similar either.


Like?

For Paragraph 1:

"That is exactly why Kakuzu escaping the Prison would be essential, in my previous post i've already explained how that can be achieved. Kisame going for Kakuzu while the masks escape will inevitable result in Kakuzu's death, that i agree with.

However once the Water Dome is dispelled and the other hearts escape the prison and Kakuzu "dies" due to a deprivation of oxygen, the hearts have shown the ability to reintegrate back into his body and revive him after he's dead.

Either way, Kakuzu will survive with a few hearts intact so he can continue with the fight."

2. I already explained.

3. Kisimes Swords doesn't absorb as much as he does fighting a jinjuriki then Guy and Suijetsu. Although their chakra was drained it didn't stop them from continuing the fight. Same would be if fighting Kakuzu, who has 4 other sources.

4. No ones said it was strong like kakuzu I believe he only mentions it being distracting and good for pressuring.

5. Dome is bound to be dispelled after his finishes Kakuzu off ONCE (meaning one death) But that is it for that jutsu.

[Joki]

Daikodan was countered in my previous post, the Water Dome also (he escapes and revives himself with reintergration). After that i shifted the focus onto the beginning stages of the fight.

Disregard those two techniques for now as i've countered them already, counter the new arguments i raised after that.



Kakuzu, the underdog is always more fun

And I countered your "counters", so what exactly are your "counters" that should get me to drop the argument? Because whatever they are, obviously I wasn't convinced by them...and you didn't exactly counter my post either.

Kakuzu won't be able to escape when Kisame's following him and his chakra is constantly being drained, nor is Kakuzu exactly a chakra monster who can last in a fight vs Kisame. So how exactly does he plan that?

For Paragraph 1:

"That is exactly why Kakuzu escaping the Prison would be essential, in my previous post i've already explained how that can be achieved. Kisame going for Kakuzu while the masks escape will inevitable result in Kakuzu's death, that i agree with.

However once the Water Dome is dispelled and the other hearts escape the prison and Kakuzu "dies" due to a deprivation of oxygen, the hearts have shown the ability to reintegrate back into his body and revive him after he's dead.

Either way, Kakuzu will survive with a few hearts intact so he can continue with the fight."

2. I already explained.

3. Kisimes Swords doesn't absorb as much as he does fighting a jinjuriki then Guy and Suijetsu. Although their chakra was drained it didn't stop them from continuing the fight. Same would be if fighting Kakuzu, who has 4 other sources.

4. No ones said it was strong like kakuzu I believe he only mentions it being distracting and good for pressuring.

5. Dome is bound to be dispelled after his finishes Kakuzu off ONCE (meaning one death) But that is it for that jutsu.

Why would he ignore the masks that would still be moving around after he kills Kakuzu? The water from water dome doesn't just disappear, a lake is always a lake. The masks aren't overcoming 1000 sharks of Kisame's arsenal if they can even get to Kakuzu's body in the first place. And what happens when Kisame does destroy masks? Kakuzu doesn't get to keep every single one of his elemental jutsu indefinitely as long as he has 1 heart.

Yeah...you guys can say "Oh I already countered that" as much as you want but when you didn't legitimately counter it or I can't recall, it doesn't hold much water. I need specifics

[Negative Knight]

And I countered your "counters", so what exactly are your "counters" that should get me to drop the argument? Because whatever they are, obviously I wasn't convinced by them...and you didn't exactly counter my post either.

Kakuzu won't be able to escape when Kisame's following him and his chakra is constantly being drained, nor is Kakuzu exactly a chakra monster who can last in a fight vs Kisame. So how exactly does he plan that?


Why would he ignore the masks that would still be moving around after he kills Kakuzu? The water from water dome doesn't just disappear, a lake is always a lake. The masks aren't overcoming 1000 sharks of Kisame's arsenal if they can even get to Kakuzu's body in the first place. And what happens when Kisame does destroy masks? Kakuzu doesn't get to keep every single one of his elemental jutsu indefinitely as long as he has 1 heart.

Yeah...you guys can say "Oh I already countered that" as much as you want but when you didn't legitimately counter it or I can't recall, it doesn't hold much water. I need specifics

Alright i understand what you're saying this, but let's be logical. A fight happens in a chronological order of beginning, middle and end. You're too focused on the ending stages whilst completely disregarding what transpires at the beginning, it could very well decide the nature of a fight.

So counter my points that i raised and then once we've established the beginning of the fight, we'll lead back onto your ending points of the Water Dome.

[Simple Math]

Kakuzu, the underdog is always more fun

alright

kisame sure have a great advantage if he keep his samehada that can absorb most of kakuzu's attack.. as far as i remember, samehada will be weak against katon zukokuu since fire > samehada

in any case Kakuzu's diamond skin is a doton jutsu , doton > suiton. Add 4 unbrided mask attacking from all side with big scale jutsus , can do the job, Suiton useless agains doton diamond skin.. raiton is also super effective on suiton

if kisame goes in the water drome, it will be hard for kakuzu to keep up with him since his chakra constanly drains, while he is also being slower..Kisame will mainly go after kakuzu's which is why i believe the hearts can somewat take the hits or escape it..

http://i40.mangapanda.com/naruto/337/naruto-6832.jpg

when that being said.. kakuzu himself will be able to fight again.. this is also a too big risk for kakuzu since he loses some of his hearts.. he have to save his katon zukokuu for samehada

[Joki]

Alright i understand what you're saying this, but let's be logical. A fight happens in a chronological order of beginning, middle and end. You're too focused on the ending stages whilst completely disregarding what transpires at the beginning, it could very well decide the nature of a fight.

So counter my points that i raised and then once we've established the beginning of the fight, we'll lead back onto your ending points of the Water Dome.

Seemingly you're avoiding actually countering water dome and daikodan. Fortunately Kisame's very capable and it's highly in character for Kisame to use it in the beginning of the fight like he did vs Bee.

I'm not debating the match chronologically though, I want to know what your counters to those techniques are. Kisame for whatever reason randomly won't use his main arsenal of techniques just because you want Kakuzu to win?

[EjBlack]

And I countered your "counters", so what exactly are your "counters" that should get me to drop the argument? Because whatever they are, obviously I wasn't convinced by them...and you didn't exactly counter my post either.

Kakuzu won't be able to escape when Kisame's following him and his chakra is constantly being drained , nor is Kakuzu exactly a chakra monster who can last in a fight vs Kisame. So how exactly does he plan that?


Why would he ignore the masks that would still be moving around after he kills Kakuzu? The water from water dome doesn't just disappear, a lake is always a lake. The masks aren't overcoming 1000 sharks of Kisame's arsenal if they can even get to Kakuzu's body in the first place. And what happens when Kisame does destroy masks? Kakuzu doesn't get to keep every single one of his elemental jutsu indefinitely as long as he has 1 heart.

Yeah...you guys can say "Oh I already countered that" as much as you want but when you didn't legitimately counter it or I can't recall, it doesn't hold much water. I need specifics

"Kakuzu won't be able to escape when Kisame's following him and his chakra is constantly being drained ": I agree

" , nor is Kakuzu exactly a chakra monster who can last in a fight vs Kisame." Prove it that Kakuzu doesn't have good chakra and won't last

"Why would he ignore the masks that would still be moving around after he kills Kakuzu?"He won't ignore but the monster prove they are strong enough to save and recover Kakuzu.
"The water from water dome doesn't just disappear, a lake is always a lake. ": [b]Underestimating them much? They will react if they are in danger, they do whatever it's necessary to wait for the right chance to save Kakuzu. I would dissagree with my own statement if Kisame has full knowledge on Kakuzu's technique.[b/]


The rest of your statement sounds like Kisame has full knowledge on his techs and is planing ahead. That is not going to work in this thread.

[EjBlack]

And I countered your "counters", so what exactly are your "counters" that should get me to drop the argument? Because whatever they are, obviously I wasn't convinced by them...and you didn't exactly counter my post either.

Kakuzu won't be able to escape when Kisame's following him and his chakra is constantly being drained , nor is Kakuzu exactly a chakra monster who can last in a fight vs Kisame. So how exactly does he plan that?


Why would he ignore the masks that would still be moving around after he kills Kakuzu? The water from water dome doesn't just disappear, a lake is always a lake. The masks aren't overcoming 1000 sharks of Kisame's arsenal if they can even get to Kakuzu's body in the first place. And what happens when Kisame does destroy masks? Kakuzu doesn't get to keep every single one of his elemental jutsu indefinitely as long as he has 1 heart.

Yeah...you guys can say "Oh I already countered that" as much as you want but when you didn't legitimately counter it or I can't recall, it doesn't hold much water. I need specifics

"Kakuzu won't be able to escape when Kisame's following him and his chakra is constantly being drained ": I agree

" , nor is Kakuzu exactly a chakra monster who can last in a fight vs Kisame." Prove it that Kakuzu doesn't have good chakra and won't last

"Why would he ignore the masks that would still be moving around after he kills Kakuzu?"He won't ignore but the monster prove they are strong enough to save and recover Kakuzu.
"The water from water dome doesn't just disappear, a lake is always a lake. ": Underestimating them much? They will react if they are in danger, they do whatever it's necessary to wait for the right chance to save Kakuzu. I would dissagree with my own statement if Kisame has full knowledge on Kakuzu's technique.


The rest of your statement sounds like Kisame has full knowledge on his techs and is planing ahead. That is not going to work in this thread.

[Joki]

Prove it that Kakuzu doesn't have good chakra and won't last

Ok, if he had anywhere near Bee's chakra, even Bee's entire chakra arsenal was drained to the point that he was going to faint in seconds, and he's one of the biggest chakra monsters in the series. Do you have proof that Kakuzu does have that much chakra because that's what you're supposed to prove?

He won't ignore but the monster prove they are strong enough to save and recover Kakuzu.

A single mask that fodder jutsus have destroyed by themselves, with 1 jutsu, will be able to get past a giant water dome and high kage level shinobi who drains chakra and excels at absorbing ninjutsu and has an insane arsenal with high firepower? I don't see any masks getting past him especially when they're only masks so you'll have to try harder

[b]Underestimating them much? They will react if they are in danger, they do whatever it's necessary to wait for the right chance to save Kakuzu. I would dissagree with my own statement if Kisame has full knowledge on Kakuzu's technique.[b/]

I don't think I'm going to take you seriously if we have to argue Kisame vs Kakuzu's masks and his masks alone. How am I underestimating them? They can do whatever they want, they're not getting past Kisame, not by a long shot.

In fact, he can easily make 3 water clones, each who managed to catch Lee, Tenten and Neji in a water prison at 3% power to handle the masks. How will they traverse through a giant water dome, 3 10% Kisame clones and potentially hundreds of sharks, with their 1 single jutsu each that will get absorbed?

The rest of your statement sounds like Kisame has full knowledge on his techs and is planing ahead. That is not going to work in this thread.

Oh? Like what specifically?

While Kisame doesn't have full knowledge by any means they're fellow Akatsuki members and are bound to have some form of knowledge on each other. But Kisame's not a guy who needs knowledge when his attacks are on a completely different scale and perfect for destroying Kakuzu. And the same goes on the reverse, you can't act like Kakuzu has full knowledge.