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  1. #1
    ANBU BLACK OPS Cash's Avatar
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    The Shinigami Seal ... explained in its entirety

    I wrote out my theory here a while back.
    http://www.narutobase.net/forums/nar...-2-minato.html

    I wanted to clarify my thought process, because looking back at that post, it didn't come out very clean.


    The following explains everything involving Naruto and the Kyuubi. This includes how the shinigami jutsu works, and allows Naruto to use the Kyuubi's chakra.

    1. "The soul of the ninja that uses the shinigami jutsu... will battle the soul of his opponent for all eternity inside of the Shinigami's stomach."

    -- Given #1 --
    2. Minato devised a means to split the Kyuubi's chakra into 2 parts by manipulating the shinigami jutsu, enabling Naruto to use only 1 of the Kyuubi's chakras. Sarutobi also manipulated the shinigami jutsu to seal 2.25 souls, along with his own.

    3. It is IMPOSSIBLE for the Kyuubi (even with its chakra split) to be sealed somewhere other than the Shinigami's stomach. This eliminates the thought of the Sealing Scroll having part of the Kyuubi inside of it.

    -- Given #1,2,3" --
    4. Minato separated the Kyuubi into 2 halves. The, he sealed the Kyuubi inside of Naruto using 2 seals. Sarutobi created 2 shadow clones of himself to seal the souls of the First and Second Hokages. He used his real body to seal Orochimaru's arms. Sarutobi's shadow clones each has the Shinigami's seal of their stomachs before disappearing. When Sarutobi sealed Orochimaru's arms, his soul was sucked into the Shinigami's stomach, and is destined to battle the souls of the First and Second Hokages, along with the arms of Orochimaru ( lol).. for all eternity. What you have to remember, is that the shadow clones are only chakra. In theory, Sarutobi could have taken the souls of as many people, as the amount of shadow clones he could make with his own chakra, as long as his soul is that last to be consumed by the Shinigami.

    -- Given #4 --
    5. Minato must have used the method to separate the Kyuubi into 2 parts. Sarutobi mimicked Minato's technique, so we can assume a shadow clone would have been involved. In fact, this is the only logical way for 1 person, to use the shinigami jutsu to split the Kyuubi in half.

    -- Given #5 --
    6. We can now examine the Kyuubi inside of Naruto. The Kyuubi maintains its form, very similar in nature to the rasengan. It takes spiritual chakra, and physical chakra. This must apply to the Kyyubi as well. We can see half of the Kyuubi behind a gate within Naruto, this is the Kyuubi's "soul". The other half, "physical" chakra, makes up the Kyuubi's cloak. We are able to witness this relationship and understand through the progression of the Kyuubi cloak's tails. It also gives insight of how the shinigami seal works, when it separated the Kyuubi's 2 chakras. The Kyuubi "Spirit" behind the gate, obtains more more control and dominance over Naruto, as the number of tails increases. This manifested when the Kyuubi came close to successfully forcing Naruto to take the seal off the gate. Naruto almost appeared to be in a trance in that manga scene, and just obeyed the Kyuubi. That is until Minato saved him.

    -- Given #4,5 --
    7. Minato appeared in front of Naruto, and stopped him from fully releasing the Kyuubi. Then, Minato used the last of the chakra he had (in that form) to close the opened seal. Minato disappearing, after using his chakra, is unmistakeably similar to that of a shadow clone running out of chakra and simply vanishing. This in essence how I justify my theory on Minato using a shadow clone to seal part of the Kyuubi.

    -- Given #1,7 --
    8. If Minato and the Kyuubi are destined to battle for all eternity, why is it that Naruto can physically see the Kyuubi behind the giant gate, but NOT Minato? It is IMPOSSIBLE for Minato to just disappear due to "running out of chakra". Taking this a step further... it means that Naruto is "Seeing Inside the stomach of the Shinigami". We have seen the shadow clone of Minato, but where is the real Minato? Where does the battle for all eternity take place?

    -- Give #8 --
    9. I theorize that we have seen Minato all along. Without a physical body, Minato's soul can take the form/shape of anything he wants. If Minato is battling the Kyuubi for all eternity, we have to assume this is a figurative battle, if we are not witnessing it taking place behind that gate. In fact... I theorize that Minato... IS the gate. The Kyuubi is in a figurative battle with the gate holding him back. I know you are thinking "Minato said the he hoped he never had to see the Kyuubi again, so Minato can't be the gate otherwise he wouldn't have said this". Sorry, but you'd be forgetting how shadow clones work. The shadow clone of Minato was made during the sealing of the Kyuubi, and had been lying dormant until the 8-Tailed cloak appeared. Not until after it used all of its chakra to re-seal the "gateway"/seal, would the shadow clone disappear and reconnect with the real Minato.

    -- Given #9 --
    10. Last thing I want to reference is when Orochimaru attempted to summon the soul of Minato to battle Sarutobi. Sarutobi freaked out, and said that he had to stop Orochimaru from summoning Minato NO matter what! Why this urgency and concern? It is due to the fact that IF Orochimaru had succeeded... the Kyuubi would have also been released from Naruto. Minato must be what is holding back the Kyuubi from breaking loose. Vice versa ...if Naruto had pulled the seal off of the giant gate, the Kyuubi would have been released from the Shinigami's stomach. However, so would have Minato's soul, but without a body to return to. I will theorize that his soul would use his son as a vessel, and imbue Naruto with his abilities if that happened.... not predicting it will of course...

    Well thats about it. Hopefully this version is a little more refined and clear to understand.
     
         
    Last edited by Cash; 08-01-2009 at 01:57 AM.

  2. #2
    Elite Uchiha Officer Shisui Uchiha's Avatar
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    Re: The Shinigami Seal ... explained in its entirety

    Quote Originally Posted by Cash View Post
    I wrote out my theory here a while back.
    http://www.narutobase.net/forums/nar...-2-minato.html

    I wanted to clarify my thought process, because looking back at that post, it didn't come out very clean.


    The following explains everything involving Naruto and the Kyuubi. This includes how the shinigami jutsu works, and allows Naruto to use the Kyuubi's chakra.

    1. "The soul of the ninja that uses the shinigami jutsu... will battle the soul of his opponent for all eternity inside of the Shinigami's stomach."

    -- Given #1 --
    2. Minato devised a means to split the Kyuubi's chakra into 2 parts by manipulating the shinigami jutsu, enabling Naruto to use only 1 of the Kyuubi's chakras. Sarutobi also manipulated the shinigami jutsu to seal 2.25 souls, along with his own.

    3. It is IMPOSSIBLE for the Kyuubi (even with its chakra split) to be sealed somewhere other than the Shinigami's stomach. This eliminates the thought of the Sealing Scroll having part of the Kyuubi inside of it.

    -- Given #1,2,3" --
    4. Minato separated the Kyuubi into 2 halves. The, he sealed the Kyuubi inside of Naruto using 2 seals. Sarutobi created 2 shadow clones of himself to seal the souls of the First and Second Hokages. He used his real body to seal Orochimaru's arms. Sarutobi's shadow clones each has the Shinigami's seal of their stomachs before disappearing. When Sarutobi sealed Orochimaru's arms, his soul was sucked into the Shinigami's stomach, and is destined to battle the souls of the First and Second Hokages, along with the arms of Orochimaru ( lol).. for all eternity. What you have to remember, is that the shadow clones are only chakra. In theory, Sarutobi could have taken the souls of as many people, as the amount of shadow clones he could make with his own chakra, as long as his soul is that last to be consumed by the Shinigami.

    -- Given #4 --
    5. We can now examine the Kyuubi inside of Naruto. The Kyuubi maintains its form, very similar in nature to the rasengan. It takes spiritual chakra, and physical chakra. This must apply to the Kyyubi as well. We can see half of the Kyuubi behind a gate within Naruto, this is the Kyuubi's "soul". The other half, "physical" chakra, makes up the Kyuubi's cloak. We are able to witness this relationship and understand through the progression of the Kyuubi cloak's tails. It also gives insight of how the shinigami seal works, when it separated the Kyuubi's 2 chakras. The Kyuubi "Spirit" behind the gate, obtains more more control and dominance over Naruto, as the number of tails increases. This manifested when the Kyuubi came close to successfully forcing Naruto to take the seal off the gate. Naruto almost appeared to be in a trance in that manga scene, and just obeyed the Kyuubi. That is until Minato saved him.

    -- Given #5 --
    6. Minato must have used the method to separate the Kyuubi into 2 parts. Sarutobi mimicked Minato's technique, so we can assume a shadow clone would have been involved. In fact, this is the only logical way for 1 person, to use the shinigami jutsu to split the Kyuubi in half.

    -- Given #4,5 --
    7. Minato appeared in front of Naruto, and stopped him from fully releasing the Kyuubi. Then, Minato used the last of the chakra he had (in that form) to close the opened seal. Minato disappearing, after using his chakra, is unmistakeably similar to that of a shadow clone running out of chakra and simply vanishing. This in essence how I justify my theory on Minato using a shadow clone to seal part of the Kyuubi.

    -- Given #1,7 --
    8. If Minato and the Kyuubi are destined to battle for all eternity, why is it that Naruto can physically see the Kyuubi behind the giant gate, but NOT Minato? It is IMPOSSIBLE for Minato to just disappear due to "running out of chakra". Taking this a step further... it means that Naruto is "Seeing Inside the stomach of the Shinigami". We have seen the shadow clone of Minato, but where is the real Minato? Where does the battle for all eternity take place?

    -- Give #8 --
    9. I theorize that we have seen Minato all along. Without a physical body, Minato's soul can take the form/shape of anything he wants. If Minato is battling the Kyuubi for all eternity, we have to assume this is a figurative battle, if we are not witnessing it taking place behind that gate. In fact... I theorize that Minato... IS the gate. The Kyuubi is in a figurative battle with the gate holding him back. I know you are thinking "Minato said the he hoped he never had to see the Kyuubi again, so Minato can't be the gate otherwise he wouldn't have said this". Sorry, but you'd be forgetting how shadow clones work. The shadow clone of Minato was made during the sealing of the Kyuubi, and had been lying dormant until the 8-Tailed cloak appeared. Not until after it used all of its chakra to re-seal the "gateway"/seal, would the shadow clone disappear and reconnect with the real Minato.

    -- Given #9 --
    10. Last thing I want to reference is when Orochimaru attempted to summon the soul of Minato to battle Sarutobi. Sarutobi freaked out, and said that he had to stop Orochimaru from summoning Minato NO matter what! Why this urgency and concern? It is due to the fact that IF Orochimaru had succeeded... the Kyuubi would have also been released from Naruto. Minato must be what is holding back the Kyuubi from breaking loose. Vice versa ...if Naruto had pulled the seal off of the giant gate, the Kyuubi would have been released from the Shinigami's stomach. However, so would have Minato's soul, but without a body to return to. I will theorize that his soul would use his son as a vessel, and imbue Naruto with his abilities if that happened.... not predicting it will of course...


    Well thats about it. Hopefully this version is a little more refined and clear to understand.
    I don't agree with that last bit. There is no evidence to suggest that the third coffin was Minato, only speculation. Sarutobi easily could have been saying he had to stop the third, because 4 v 1 is a lot different than 3 v 1, and with the caliber of ninja Orochimaru would not settle for, it was going to be someone very strong, which means Sarutobi would have had no chance. I also think that the nine tails only needs half of his chakra to survive, because in theory, infinite/2=infinite. The Kyuubi is composed of chakra and I guess that Yondaime only sealed part of the chakra inside Naruto, because he wouldn't be able to handle the whole fox.
     
         

  3. #3
    ANBU BLACK OPS Cash's Avatar
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    Re: The Shinigami Seal ... explained in its entirety

    Quote Originally Posted by Shisui Uchiha View Post
    I don't agree with that last bit. There is no evidence to suggest that the third coffin was Minato, only speculation. Sarutobi easily could have been saying he had to stop the third, because 4 v 1 is a lot different than 3 v 1, and with the caliber of ninja Orochimaru would not settle for, it was going to be someone very strong, which means Sarutobi would have had no chance. I also think that the nine tails only needs half of his chakra to survive, because in theory, infinite/2=infinite. The Kyuubi is composed of chakra and I guess that Yondaime only sealed part of the chakra inside Naruto, because he wouldn't be able to handle the whole fox.
    1. The 3rd coffin WAS most definitely Minato. The coffin had the number 4 on the top of it. The other 2 coffins had the numbers 1 & 2... and the First and Second Hokages came out of them. What makes you say that the coffin with the number 4 wasn't Minato? If you can't figure that out... how could you have insight into what I wrote? lol

    2. Please refer to #6 in my theory.
    LOL. The Kyuubi can only take its PHYSICAL form when the two chakras are mixed together.
    Sora had all the leaking "physical" chakra that spilled out... When Minato was tearing the Kyuubi's entire make-up in half!
    Therefore... contrary to what you said... The Kyuubi cannot exist with only half of its chakra.
     
         
    Last edited by Cash; 08-01-2009 at 02:09 AM.

  4. #4
    Your bro. Scorpio0Pharaoh0Titan's Avatar
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    June 2009...nuff said!
     

    Re: The Shinigami Seal ... explained in its entirety

    good post... i read something similar in onemanga... it wasn't the same post but similar topic.

    good read.
     
         

  5. #5
    ANBU BLACK OPS Cash's Avatar
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    Re: The Shinigami Seal ... explained in its entirety

    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpio0Pharaoh0Titan View Post
    good post... i read something similar in onemanga... it wasn't the same post but similar topic.

    good read.
    THanks! Do you have the link?
     
         

  6. #6
    Elite Uchiha Officer Shisui Uchiha's Avatar
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    Re: The Shinigami Seal ... explained in its entirety

    Quote Originally Posted by Cash View Post
    1. The 3rd coffin WAS most definitely Minato. The coffin had the number 4 on the top of it. The other 2 coffins had the numbers 1 & 2... and the First and Second Hokages came out of them. What makes you say that the coffin with the number 4 wasn't Minato? If you can't figure that out... how could you have insight into what I wrote? lol

    2. Please refer to #6 in my theory.
    LOL. The Kyuubi can only take its PHYSICAL form when the two chakras are mixed together.
    Sora had all the leaking "physical" chakra that spilled out... When Minato was tearing the Kyuubi's entire make-up in half!
    Therefore... contrary to what you said... The Kyuubi cannot exist with only half of its chakra.
    Don't bring fillers into an argument over manga...that is blasphemy. What makes you think the Kyuubi can't take physical form? The eight tails was shown to be released and had all the muscle tissue and skeletal structure of the eight tails, so if one more were released, it isn't like the Kyuubi would dissipate, which you claims it would. I haven't read the Konoha Battle in a while but will check it out and report back. Until then, I still don't agree with your theory of Minato being the cage, though I will give you credit for thinking outside the box.
     
         

  7. #7
    Your bro. Scorpio0Pharaoh0Titan's Avatar
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    June 2009...nuff said!
     

    Re: The Shinigami Seal ... explained in its entirety

    Quote Originally Posted by Cash View Post
    THanks! Do you have the link?
    unfortunately i can't find it.


    it was focused about naruto's mom and dad and that when one sees a shinigami, they look scared and stuff... it was a long read.
     
         

  8. #8
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    Re: The Shinigami Seal ... explained in its entirety

    Quote Originally Posted by Shisui Uchiha View Post
    Don't bring fillers into an argument over manga...that is blasphemy. What makes you think the Kyuubi can't take physical form? The eight tails was shown to be released and had all the muscle tissue and skeletal structure of the eight tails, so if one more were released, it isn't like the Kyuubi would dissipate, which you claims it would. I haven't read the Konoha Battle in a while but will check it out and report back. Until then, I still don't agree with your theory of Minato being the cage, though I will give you credit for thinking outside the box.
    which one is the filler part
     
         

  9. #9
    Elite Uchiha Officer Shisui Uchiha's Avatar
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    Re: The Shinigami Seal ... explained in its entirety

    Manga Fox: Naruto Vol.13 Ch.117: The Assigned Mission Online Manga Scans

    I see no mention of "Fourth" anywhere, so yea....
     
         

  10. #10
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    Re: The Shinigami Seal ... explained in its entirety

    Quote Originally Posted by Cash View Post
    1. The 3rd coffin WAS most definitely Minato. The coffin had the number 4 on the top of it. The other 2 coffins had the numbers 1 & 2... and the First and Second Hokages came out of them. What makes you say that the coffin with the number 4 wasn't Minato? If you can't figure that out... how could you have insight into what I wrote? lol

    2. Please refer to #6 in my theory.
    LOL. The Kyuubi can only take its PHYSICAL form when the two chakras are mixed together.
    Sora had all the leaking "physical" chakra that spilled out... When Minato was tearing the Kyuubi's entire make-up in half!
    Therefore... contrary to what you said... The Kyuubi cannot exist with only half of its chakra.
    Filler.
     
         

  11. #11
    ANBU BLACK OPS Cash's Avatar
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    Re: The Shinigami Seal ... explained in its entirety

    Quote Originally Posted by Shisui Uchiha View Post
    Filler.
    You'll argues that because it wasn't in the manga, it didn't happen? So many people do that... anime is a supplement to the manga. The story's entirety comes out through the anime. All gaps are filled in the anime. NOW the movies... thats filler, and pointless.
     
         

  12. #12
    Feeling little Dizzy. Orion's Avatar
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    Re: The Shinigami Seal ... explained in its entirety

    Seems logical for most of the part. But for last part though it seems logical, that event you have used to support your theory can be interpreted in many ways...It can also be said Third was scared to fight 4th because of his insane speed, Battle would have been over if 4th used FTG against 3rd.

    I always thought of Shinigami seal working as a gateway for Shinigamis stomach. Beyond which Battle for Shinigamis victims is going on...
    Though I can not prove it, I think gate is not minato but Kushina is a gate. That can explain why there is water when Naruto sees kyuubi. And as we saw Minato teleported naruto to some place far from kyuubi. So we can say in shinigamis stomach somewhere battle is going on. What we see in Narutos innards is just a that part of seal where Kyuubi is sealed with Kushina as a gate and minato as a gatekeeper...
    Well I know I didnt manage to explain my point properly, but this is what I think...
     
         

  13. #13
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    Re: The Shinigami Seal ... explained in its entirety

    Infinite divided by 2 = chuck norris
     
         

  14. #14
    Elite Uchiha Officer Shisui Uchiha's Avatar
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    Re: The Shinigami Seal ... explained in its entirety

    Quote Originally Posted by Cash View Post
    You'll argues that because it wasn't in the manga, it didn't happen? So many people do that... anime is a supplement to the manga. The story's entirety comes out through the anime. All gaps are filled in the anime. NOW the movies... thats filler, and pointless.
    Kishi didn't make the fillers, they don't further the plot, they don't count. It isn't that the anime is designed to "fill all the holes in the plot", it's that they have to extend scenes and add in flashbacks because otherwise the anime would catch up too fast.
     
         

  15. #15
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    Re: The Shinigami Seal ... explained in its entirety

    Quote Originally Posted by Shisui Uchiha View Post
    Kishi didn't make the fillers, they don't further the plot, they don't count. It isn't that the anime is designed to "fill all the holes in the plot", it's that they have to extend scenes and add in flashbacks because otherwise the anime would catch up too fast.
    agreed.
     
         

  16. #16
    Member Minato the Sage's Avatar
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    Re: The Shinigami Seal ... explained in its entirety

    Quote Originally Posted by Shisui Uchiha View Post
    Kishi didn't make the fillers, they don't further the plot, they don't count. It isn't that the anime is designed to "fill all the holes in the plot", it's that they have to extend scenes and add in flashbacks because otherwise the anime would catch up too fast.
    Its a bitter truth!
    there werent any fillers
     
         

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    Re: The Shinigami Seal ... explained in its entirety

    First off, thread title is false until the end of the manga. Some things were shown as to what the 4th did as far as shinigami jutsu went. It did not show all.

    " soul of the ninja part"

    Can you point to where this is? Could be something that was missed.

    "minato devised a means..."

    Use 1 of them for the time being. Toad scroll heavily suggest that the 'other half' can be made use of, but we see that 'it really ain't advised' right now. Also, Sarutobi did not seal 2.25 souls. He sealed 2 souls and had to alter part of his wish due to the circumstances going on. Oro was also able to make use of hands after reincarnation jutsu.

    "it is impossible for the kyuubi to be sealed..."

    Someone forgot about the bijuu statue and how the kyuubi CAN infact be sealed inside of it. While there is specific criteria that must be met for it, kyuubi CAN be sealed in a place other than the shinigami's stomach. And sorry, but toad scroll has part of kyuubi in there. It could be the part that has the 'kitsune lored powers' part, but part of kyuubi is in there.

    "Minato separated kyuubi into 2 halves."

    Unless you wanna count toad scroll as a different seal, there is only one seal. An extremely elaborate seal with fine-print and neiner-neiner all over the place. But one. Also, shadow clones are not 'only chakra'. They are real copies of the person. Granted, they can go poof 'easy', but they are not 'only chakra.' Given what Sarutobi wanted to accomplish and circumstances and requirements of what needed to be done / wanted to be done, he needed to make shadow clones. Chakra goes down dramatically with increased number of clones and he still needs a ton of chakra to even summon the shinigami. Even then, what is needed / wanted to be done, may not work out 100% for the summoner.

    "Minato must have used"

    Until we see the actual battle and learn more about the shinigami jutsu and the seal itself ( aka more toward end of manga ), none of this can be assumed. Speculate, yes. Assume and treat it as true? No. Remember the crap of the legend of the bijuu.

    " We can examine"

    This can be taken as speculation, but cannot ( entirely ) be taken as truth, "no matta what." Hence, us leading to the need for learning more about the battle, the seal, the jutsu, etc. Also, Naruto was in a state of 'I want this to stop' and apparently was 'willing' to sell 'the devil' to do it. Kyuubi goded (sp?) it on with a 'deal' of sorts. Afterall, it sees, hears, etc. everything that naruto has to.

    " Minato appeared in "

    Actually, a shadow clone running out of chakra can still stick around provided it is not dispelled or poofed by combat. Minato also was under a bit of a time limit in accordance to fine print of the seal.

    " if minato and the kyuubi "

    Quite the assuming there. First off, Minato didn't seal the kyuubi inside of the shinigami. Toad scroll and naruto, yes. Inside the shinigami, no. Minato can infact see the kyuubi behind the cage. Looking and even pointing at it. Minato 'disappearance' is in keeping with however the shinigami-soul-deal was done. Once you are in the shinigami, you are 'supposed' to stay there. No ifs ands coulds, etc. unless some kind of deal or something is struck or counter measure. For seeing inside the stomach of the shinigami, he sure ain't seeing the 3rd, 1st, 2nd, or the 'arms of Oro', or possibly pein. We saw minato. Not a shadow clone or anything like that.

    " I theorize "

    We haven't seen Minato all along. Though, Minato has been watchingall along through Naruto. We don't know if Minato soul can take the form of whatever it wants or not cause we know next to jack about the afterlife period. If minato is the gate, he ain't in the shinigami's stomach and ( so far ) would be against whatever deal was struck ( from what we seen so far ). And sorry, but minato wasn't a shadow clone.

    " Last thng I want to reference "

    Sorry seems to forget about the flying thundergod technique. This would have made things VERY, VERY complicated for Sarutobi. Minato is not holding thing holding back the kyuubi. He is a part of a seal-deal that is meant to hold back the kyuubi. If the seal woulda been peeled, kyuubi woulda been free'd and Minato would be still be in the shinigami stomach ( unless an edo tensei or something is done ).

    Quite simply, need to re-read a few parts of the manga. Fix the title of the thread and 'wait' till near the end of the manga.

    And you musta edited the sora part. The Naruto anime is based on the manga ( not the other way around ). Fillers are done to mainly keep the anime from catching to the manga. It may 'explain' a few parts of the manga that were 'skipped over', but it is not recognized by manga. Otherwise, inconsistencies can arise. Also, theorizing doesn't equal shinigami explained in it's entirety. Have a headache right now, so not gonna get into the other posts for now.

    -sidenote- the whole gate scene is happened within naruto's subconsious or however you spell it. No teleporting or anything.
     
         
    Last edited by Holy Cowboy; 08-01-2009 at 10:58 PM.

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    Re: The Shinigami Seal ... explained in its entirety

    Quote Originally Posted by SSJ4Naruto View Post
    Seems logical for most of the part. But for last part though it seems logical, that event you have used to support your theory can be interpreted in many ways...It can also be said Third was scared to fight 4th because of his insane speed, Battle would have been over if 4th used FTG against 3rd.

    I always thought of Shinigami seal working as a gateway for Shinigamis stomach. Beyond which Battle for Shinigamis victims is going on...
    Though I can not prove it, I think gate is not minato but Kushina is a gate. That can explain why there is water when Naruto sees kyuubi. And as we saw Minato teleported naruto to some place far from kyuubi. So we can say in shinigamis stomach somewhere battle is going on. What we see in Narutos innards is just a that part of seal where Kyuubi is sealed with Kushina as a gate and minato as a gatekeeper...
    Well I know I didnt manage to explain my point properly, but this is what I think...
    Interesting twist, hadn't thought of that, and I'd be interested if you could think of the mechanism unless it's the variant of the Shinigami seal.

    Cash, great stuff. I agree that fillers aren't used, but I'm not an authority figure here. I don't even think your theory needs it, ironically it's kind of a filler if you get what I mean.

    One question I hope I didn't miss. Minato used a shadow clone for the Kyuubi or to force it into Naruto? I can't imagine him leaving a shadow clone to do it with Madara there who apparently saw through everything.
     
         

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    Re: The Shinigami Seal ... explained in its entirety

    Quote Originally Posted by leafeater View Post
    Interesting twist, hadn't thought of that, and I'd be interested if you could think of the mechanism unless it's the variant of the Shinigami seal.

    Cash, great stuff. I agree that fillers aren't used, but I'm not an authority figure here. I don't even think your theory needs it, ironically it's kind of a filler if you get what I mean.

    One question I hope I didn't miss. Minato used a shadow clone for the Kyuubi or to force it into Naruto? I can't imagine him leaving a shadow clone to do it with Madara there who apparently saw through everything.
    That would be a great twist if I can prove my point...
    I also agree that fillers are not much used. Yes Cash, your theory does not need fillers.

    That line of minato saying, "he saw through all of my moves", leaves many questions to think on...We yet dont know whether minato was fighting with only Kyuubi as well as Tobi/Madara. In any case, if minato manage to seal Kyuubi, that means Madara didnt saw through everything...
     
         

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    Re: The Shinigami Seal ... explained in its entirety

    Quote Originally Posted by SSJ4Naruto View Post
    That would be a great twist if I can prove my point...
    I also agree that fillers are not much used. Yes Cash, your theory does not need fillers.

    That line of minato saying, "he saw through all of my moves", leaves many questions to think on...We yet dont know whether minato was fighting with only Kyuubi as well as Tobi/Madara. In any case, if minato manage to seal Kyuubi, that means Madara didnt saw through everything...
    He was fighting both at the same time.
     
         

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    Re: The Shinigami Seal ... explained in its entirety

    Quote Originally Posted by Holy Cowboy View Post
    First off, thread title is false until the end of the manga. Some things were shown as to what the 4th did as far as shinigami jutsu went. It did not show all.

    " soul of the ninja part"

    Can you point to where this is? Could be something that was missed.

    "minato devised a means..."

    Use 1 of them for the time being. Toad scroll heavily suggest that the 'other half' can be made use of, but we see that 'it really ain't advised' right now. Also, Sarutobi did not seal 2.25 souls. He sealed 2 souls and had to alter part of his wish due to the circumstances going on. Oro was also able to make use of hands after reincarnation jutsu.
    Wrong... Orochimaru is the white snake. Orochimaru's essence is tied to the white snake. He transported his essence from body to body. Kabuto is realizing that only a few cells of Orochimaru is able to carry his essence.

    The sealing of Orochimaru's arms sped up the timetable he was working on in order to get Sasuke. That is why he had to choose a different body. The sealing technique by Sarutobi took away the arms of the body Orochimaru was in... along with part of his essence...

    Quote Originally Posted by Holy Cowboy View Post
    "it is impossible for the kyuubi to be sealed..."

    Someone forgot about the bijuu statue and how the kyuubi CAN infact be sealed inside of it. While there is specific criteria that must be met for it, kyuubi CAN be sealed in a place other than the shinigami's stomach. And sorry, but toad scroll has part of kyuubi in there. It could be the part that has the 'kitsune lored powers' part, but part of kyuubi is in there.
    Yes, Bijuu can be sealed in other places than the shinigami's stomach.

    No... you got the rest wrong. The shinigami jutsu makes a deal with the person using it, to seal away their own soul... and the soul of another person.

    Look at how Orochimaru and the previous Hokages were sealed by Saruto... Then imagine the Sarutobi is Minato... and Orochimaru and the Hokages are the Kyuubi...

    NOWHERE! Does it state that Sarutobi had the option to seal away the souls of the Hokages into a scroll!?!

    The Key Scroll according to Jiraiya... "is the key to the shinigami sealing jutsu"... IF what you said is true... It would have been stated flat out "the other half of the kyuubi is inside of the keyscroll."

    Quote Originally Posted by Holy Cowboy View Post
    "Minato separated kyuubi into 2 halves."

    Unless you wanna count toad scroll as a different seal, there is only one seal. An extremely elaborate seal with fine-print and neiner-neiner all over the place. But one. Also, shadow clones are not 'only chakra'. They are real copies of the person. Granted, they can go poof 'easy', but they are not 'only chakra.' Given what Sarutobi wanted to accomplish and circumstances and requirements of what needed to be done / wanted to be done, he needed to make shadow clones. Chakra goes down dramatically with increased number of clones and he still needs a ton of chakra to even summon the shinigami. Even then, what is needed / wanted to be done, may not work out 100% for the summoner.
    In order for Naruto to be able to use half of the Kyuubi... it means it was split into 2 parts. The shinigami jutsu is the only thing that could have sealed the Kyuubi. Given this, the Kyuubi and Minato are in the shinigami's stomach. End of discussion.

    Please provide me with your theory of HOW this scroll would have been used in the manner you are suggesting. And I will disprove every single part of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Holy Cowboy View Post
    "Minato must have used"

    Until we see the actual battle and learn more about the shinigami jutsu and the seal itself ( aka more toward end of manga ), none of this can be assumed. Speculate, yes. Assume and treat it as true? No. Remember the crap of the legend of the bijuu.
    Wrong. We can look at the battle between Orochimaru and Sarutobi. We saw the jutsu work then. Yes it was a variation... but that variation is limited within the parameters that the jutsu allows. There is a lot more proof for my theory... than there is for your frog scroll theory. 100 times more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Holy Cowboy View Post
    " if minato and the kyuubi "

    Quite the assuming there. First off, Minato didn't seal the kyuubi inside of the shinigami. Toad scroll and naruto, yes. Inside the shinigami, no. Minato can infact see the kyuubi behind the cage. Looking and even pointing at it. Minato 'disappearance' is in keeping with however the shinigami-soul-deal was done. Once you are in the shinigami, you are 'supposed' to stay there. No ifs ands coulds, etc. unless some kind of deal or something is struck or counter measure. For seeing inside the stomach of the shinigami, he sure ain't seeing the 3rd, 1st, 2nd, or the 'arms of Oro', or possibly pein. We saw minato. Not a shadow clone or anything like that.
    NO NO NO NO NO.

    The shinigami jutsu was spelled out! How did you not understand the actual text in the manga!?!?
    The cost of using the jutsu... "is that the both the user, and the person he used it on, gets sealed inside of the shinigami's stomach for all eternity" !!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!
    End of discussion on that point!

    I will agree and say that the shadow clone of Minato may have not been dispelled, but it is nonsense to get caught up on that small non-influencial tidbit.
     
         

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    Re: The Shinigami Seal ... explained in its entirety

    Quote Originally Posted by Cash View Post
    Wrong... Orochimaru is the white snake. Orochimaru's essence is tied to the white snake. He transported his essence from body to body. Kabuto is realizing that only a few cells of Orochimaru is able to carry his essence.

    The sealing of Orochimaru's arms sped up the timetable he was working on in order to get Sasuke. That is why he had to choose a different body. The sealing technique by Sarutobi took away the arms of the body Orochimaru was in... along with part of his essence...



    Yes, Bijuu can be sealed in other places than the shinigami's stomach.

    No... you got the rest wrong. The shinigami jutsu makes a deal with the person using it, to seal away their own soul... and the soul of another person.

    Look at how Orochimaru and the previous Hokages were sealed by Saruto... Then imagine the Sarutobi is Minato... and Orochimaru and the Hokages are the Kyuubi...

    NOWHERE! Does it state that Sarutobi had the option to seal away the souls of the Hokages into a scroll!?!

    The Key Scroll according to Jiraiya... "is the key to the shinigami sealing jutsu"... IF what you said is true... It would have been stated flat out "the other half of the kyuubi is inside of the keyscroll."



    In order for Naruto to be able to use half of the Kyuubi... it means it was split into 2 parts. The shinigami jutsu is the only thing that could have sealed the Kyuubi. Given this, the Kyuubi and Minato are in the shinigami's stomach. End of discussion.

    Please provide me with your theory of HOW this scroll would have been used in the manner you are suggesting. And I will disprove every single part of it.



    Wrong. We can look at the battle between Orochimaru and Sarutobi. We saw the jutsu work then. Yes it was a variation... but that variation is limited within the parameters that the jutsu allows. There is a lot more proof for my theory... than there is for your frog scroll theory. 100 times more.



    NO NO NO NO NO.

    The shinigami jutsu was spelled out! How did you not understand the actual text in the manga!?!?
    The cost of using the jutsu... "is that the both the user, and the person he used it on, gets sealed inside of the shinigami's stomach for all eternity" !!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!
    End of discussion on that point!

    I will agree and say that the shadow clone of Minato may have not been dispelled, but it is nonsense to get caught up on that small non-influencial tidbit.
    The problem with that idea of shadow clones is that they split the chakra of the user. For the shinigami to work, Minato would need all the chakra he had, and likely couldn't afford to divide it up.
     
         

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    Re: The Shinigami Seal ... explained in its entirety

    Lovely, we see the death god summoning 'twice' 'actively' and a bit passively, and Cash thinks he is kishi on the matter. So far the shinigami summoning seems to be presented as you summon the death god and you get a 'wish' that can be granted. Details involved and ability for wish to be carried out are a different story and seem to depend upon the summoner. Aka We don't know everything there is to know about it until atleast near the very end of the manga. Granted we were both a bit wrong so far on the some subject ( after me reading back a bit ).

    " Oro white snake section "

    I won't deny the white snake is involved in the whole reincarnation jutsu thing. Oro being a snake is different jutsu. Oro is a human. Granted a human that can do things that normal humans can't do due to forbidden jutsu and such, but still a human.

    "Timetable"

    Won't deny the speeding up the timetable. If it was the part of Oro essence, then apparently it got repaired/replaced with the new body. Shouldn't happen if shinigami can 'only seal away souls'. Even then, sealing away part of essence is admition that shinigami jutsu is more than just 'soul of another person' sealage like the kyuubi.


    "Deal section"

    So now you are saying that the kyuubi is a person? You need glasses?

    "Look at how Oro"

    So now are you saying that Minato got into ( his ) melee range to 'hold' onto the kyuubi, despite tail slammage, paw slammage, other abilities of the kyuubi, and lord know what else and was able to hold out for the 'entire duration' with the kitsune 'unable / very restricted ability to resist' throughout the entire thing? Especially, when he had a second party to have to deal with.

    Also, you misreading my post. I never said that part about sarutobi and scroll part. Though was the option open? Apparently it could have been given all that Minato has going on so far with his version of the method, meaning Sarutobi would need proper scroll ready and what not. Oh wait, wouldn't that be going into details involved, circumstances, ability to carry it out, and what not that you don't seem to want to acknowledge?

    " key scroll "

    Kishi doesn't always flat out say everything about everything. Yes, it is the 'key' to the 'safe.' So in a matter of speaking, the other half of kyuubi chakra is 'within the scroll' / key. Admitting of this is admitting that shinigami jutsu is more than just 'stealing souls.' Even then, Jiraiya said he sealed the yin chakra using the shiki jutsu. Did he say that he sealed it within the shinigami? No. It is still possible that he did, but most of what we have for Kyuubi's yin chakra is the key scroll.

    "split into 2 parts"

    I am not denying that it was split into 2 parts. 1 part in Naruto, other part 'somewhere else'. But, mentioning of 1 seal, not more than one.

    "Shinigami jutsu"

    I'm sorry, is the manga over? No. Then this part is as to it being the only thing is speculation. Granted, it MAY have been the only thing in Minato's arsenal that could do the job. However, he had other things on his mind besides 'sealing it away' like future use of the kyuubi. Perhaps, the shinigami jutsu was the only thing that could accomplish what Minato wanted ( not just sealing the kyuubi as a stand-alone. )

    " kyuubi and minato part "

    Minato I won't deny due to the nature of the jutsu. Though apparently, he was granted a few 'perks' such as 'saying high' to Naruto. Whether kyuubi ( despite part of it in naruto ) is in shinigami, we have yet to see. Hence, the 'future aspect' that I keep ranting on about. Something else could be revealed about the seal in the future ( especially when/if naruto versus sasuke and/or madara happens in the future ). But, then this would disprove your nice little thread title there and you would have to change your theory around to match it ( which would basically prove you don't know all about the shinigami jutsu ).

    "Oro sarutobi version of jutsu"

    We saw what sarutobi wanted to do with it. And what is this? Variation? But, the shinigami jutsu is supposed to be just 'summoner's soul being sealed along with another person's soul' . Remember? Not 'summoner's soul being sealed to 2 people and attempt to seal a third only for it to not work out so the summoner is gonna hafta settle for something else that isn't just 'sealing another person's soul ' ' .

    "There is a lot more proof for my theory"

    Congratulations if there is. There was 'proof' for tengu theory. Legend of the bijuu. Tsukiyomi being 'unbreakable.' Amaterasu being 'unavoidable' / 'unstoppable' . Naruto and Pein being family members ( on another forum that I go to ), not just 'students under same mentor'. And a bunch of other shit. Some have been disproven. Other await being proven or disproven. Till then, we will have to wait and see via the 'future of the manga'. You know that nasty thing that you don't seem to want to admit to.

    "cost of the jutsu"

    Actually, the cost of the use of the jutsu was your soul being sealed away forever, etc. The rest of that stuff is what the summoner wants. Apparently, what Minato wanted involved 'bending' the sealed away rule which, going by how 4th saved the day and naruto's life, was granted.

    "shadow clone"

    Actually, it ain't small non-influential tidbit at all. There are rules governing use of shadow clones. Shadow clone being inside of naruto is admitting that the shinigami jutsu is more than just 'sealing away of people's soul' and says there is details involved, circumstances considered, etc. from the jutsu used. Please stop contradicting yourself.

    @shisui: One doesn't need all of one's chakra to summon the death god ( unless your chakra max = 'mp cost' of the jutsu ), but it seems like you need a shitton of it.
     
         
    Last edited by Holy Cowboy; 08-03-2009 at 06:25 AM.

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    ANBU BLACK OPS Cash's Avatar
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    Re: The Shinigami Seal ... explained in its entirety

    I already stated that Sarutobi made 2 Shadow clones to extend the "reach" of the shinigami jutsu, to seal not only Orochimaru, but the souls of the previous Hokages. Therefore, shadow clones can extend the shinigami jutsu to "grab" more than the 1 for 1 deal.

    This "wish" you are talking about... What are you talking about? haha. This is the second time you mentioned it, but I blew it off thinking you were confused. But obviously you still believe that there is a wish? No. No wish. Just a contract. 1 soul sealed for your our soul... unless you manipulate the jutsu like Minato and Sarutobi.

    Yes, alot of what I said is speculation, all of the details have NOT been given. However, if you look at what has been shown about Naruto and the Kyuubi, and the battle with Oro and Sarutobi ... we are given a good idea of how it works.

    I ask that you re-read my two threads. Without thinking of this "wish" idea, and not about the Key Scroll storing the 2nd part of the Kyuubi.

    Minato stopped Naruto from unsealing the 2nd half of the Kyuubi. This is the half Minato didn't intend Naruto to use. I mean, its right there! Not in some scroll....

    Think about what we know of the shinigami jutsu, and how the Kyuubi had to have been sealed.
    1. There is a 1 soul for 1 soul contract.
    2. Sarutobi extended this contract by using shadow clones to seal 2 and 1/5 (Oro's arms) souls for his own 1 soul.
    3. Minato split the Kyuubi into halves, using 2 shinigami seals. Look at the manga of Sarutobi's battle with Orochimaru, and then imagine Minato is Sarutobi and the Kyuubi is the opponents. If you don't want to look for it. Read my linked theory, and see the images I attached to that.

    Now how you take this information, and make a theory from it is up to you... I made my theory based on logical conclusions based on the information we do have. I stress the "logical" and "information we do have".
     
         

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