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  1. #21
    ANBU BLACK OPS Cash's Avatar
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    Re: The Shinigami Seal ... explained in its entirety

    Quote Originally Posted by Holy Cowboy View Post
    First off, thread title is false until the end of the manga. Some things were shown as to what the 4th did as far as shinigami jutsu went. It did not show all.

    " soul of the ninja part"

    Can you point to where this is? Could be something that was missed.

    "minato devised a means..."

    Use 1 of them for the time being. Toad scroll heavily suggest that the 'other half' can be made use of, but we see that 'it really ain't advised' right now. Also, Sarutobi did not seal 2.25 souls. He sealed 2 souls and had to alter part of his wish due to the circumstances going on. Oro was also able to make use of hands after reincarnation jutsu.
    Wrong... Orochimaru is the white snake. Orochimaru's essence is tied to the white snake. He transported his essence from body to body. Kabuto is realizing that only a few cells of Orochimaru is able to carry his essence.

    The sealing of Orochimaru's arms sped up the timetable he was working on in order to get Sasuke. That is why he had to choose a different body. The sealing technique by Sarutobi took away the arms of the body Orochimaru was in... along with part of his essence...

    Quote Originally Posted by Holy Cowboy View Post
    "it is impossible for the kyuubi to be sealed..."

    Someone forgot about the bijuu statue and how the kyuubi CAN infact be sealed inside of it. While there is specific criteria that must be met for it, kyuubi CAN be sealed in a place other than the shinigami's stomach. And sorry, but toad scroll has part of kyuubi in there. It could be the part that has the 'kitsune lored powers' part, but part of kyuubi is in there.
    Yes, Bijuu can be sealed in other places than the shinigami's stomach.

    No... you got the rest wrong. The shinigami jutsu makes a deal with the person using it, to seal away their own soul... and the soul of another person.

    Look at how Orochimaru and the previous Hokages were sealed by Saruto... Then imagine the Sarutobi is Minato... and Orochimaru and the Hokages are the Kyuubi...

    NOWHERE! Does it state that Sarutobi had the option to seal away the souls of the Hokages into a scroll!?!

    The Key Scroll according to Jiraiya... "is the key to the shinigami sealing jutsu"... IF what you said is true... It would have been stated flat out "the other half of the kyuubi is inside of the keyscroll."

    Quote Originally Posted by Holy Cowboy View Post
    "Minato separated kyuubi into 2 halves."

    Unless you wanna count toad scroll as a different seal, there is only one seal. An extremely elaborate seal with fine-print and neiner-neiner all over the place. But one. Also, shadow clones are not 'only chakra'. They are real copies of the person. Granted, they can go poof 'easy', but they are not 'only chakra.' Given what Sarutobi wanted to accomplish and circumstances and requirements of what needed to be done / wanted to be done, he needed to make shadow clones. Chakra goes down dramatically with increased number of clones and he still needs a ton of chakra to even summon the shinigami. Even then, what is needed / wanted to be done, may not work out 100% for the summoner.
    In order for Naruto to be able to use half of the Kyuubi... it means it was split into 2 parts. The shinigami jutsu is the only thing that could have sealed the Kyuubi. Given this, the Kyuubi and Minato are in the shinigami's stomach. End of discussion.

    Please provide me with your theory of HOW this scroll would have been used in the manner you are suggesting. And I will disprove every single part of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Holy Cowboy View Post
    "Minato must have used"

    Until we see the actual battle and learn more about the shinigami jutsu and the seal itself ( aka more toward end of manga ), none of this can be assumed. Speculate, yes. Assume and treat it as true? No. Remember the crap of the legend of the bijuu.
    Wrong. We can look at the battle between Orochimaru and Sarutobi. We saw the jutsu work then. Yes it was a variation... but that variation is limited within the parameters that the jutsu allows. There is a lot more proof for my theory... than there is for your frog scroll theory. 100 times more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Holy Cowboy View Post
    " if minato and the kyuubi "

    Quite the assuming there. First off, Minato didn't seal the kyuubi inside of the shinigami. Toad scroll and naruto, yes. Inside the shinigami, no. Minato can infact see the kyuubi behind the cage. Looking and even pointing at it. Minato 'disappearance' is in keeping with however the shinigami-soul-deal was done. Once you are in the shinigami, you are 'supposed' to stay there. No ifs ands coulds, etc. unless some kind of deal or something is struck or counter measure. For seeing inside the stomach of the shinigami, he sure ain't seeing the 3rd, 1st, 2nd, or the 'arms of Oro', or possibly pein. We saw minato. Not a shadow clone or anything like that.
    NO NO NO NO NO.

    The shinigami jutsu was spelled out! How did you not understand the actual text in the manga!?!?
    The cost of using the jutsu... "is that the both the user, and the person he used it on, gets sealed inside of the shinigami's stomach for all eternity" !!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!
    End of discussion on that point!

    I will agree and say that the shadow clone of Minato may have not been dispelled, but it is nonsense to get caught up on that small non-influencial tidbit.
     
         

  2. #22
    Elite Uchiha Officer Shisui Uchiha's Avatar
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    Re: The Shinigami Seal ... explained in its entirety

    Quote Originally Posted by Cash View Post
    Wrong... Orochimaru is the white snake. Orochimaru's essence is tied to the white snake. He transported his essence from body to body. Kabuto is realizing that only a few cells of Orochimaru is able to carry his essence.

    The sealing of Orochimaru's arms sped up the timetable he was working on in order to get Sasuke. That is why he had to choose a different body. The sealing technique by Sarutobi took away the arms of the body Orochimaru was in... along with part of his essence...



    Yes, Bijuu can be sealed in other places than the shinigami's stomach.

    No... you got the rest wrong. The shinigami jutsu makes a deal with the person using it, to seal away their own soul... and the soul of another person.

    Look at how Orochimaru and the previous Hokages were sealed by Saruto... Then imagine the Sarutobi is Minato... and Orochimaru and the Hokages are the Kyuubi...

    NOWHERE! Does it state that Sarutobi had the option to seal away the souls of the Hokages into a scroll!?!

    The Key Scroll according to Jiraiya... "is the key to the shinigami sealing jutsu"... IF what you said is true... It would have been stated flat out "the other half of the kyuubi is inside of the keyscroll."



    In order for Naruto to be able to use half of the Kyuubi... it means it was split into 2 parts. The shinigami jutsu is the only thing that could have sealed the Kyuubi. Given this, the Kyuubi and Minato are in the shinigami's stomach. End of discussion.

    Please provide me with your theory of HOW this scroll would have been used in the manner you are suggesting. And I will disprove every single part of it.



    Wrong. We can look at the battle between Orochimaru and Sarutobi. We saw the jutsu work then. Yes it was a variation... but that variation is limited within the parameters that the jutsu allows. There is a lot more proof for my theory... than there is for your frog scroll theory. 100 times more.



    NO NO NO NO NO.

    The shinigami jutsu was spelled out! How did you not understand the actual text in the manga!?!?
    The cost of using the jutsu... "is that the both the user, and the person he used it on, gets sealed inside of the shinigami's stomach for all eternity" !!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!
    End of discussion on that point!

    I will agree and say that the shadow clone of Minato may have not been dispelled, but it is nonsense to get caught up on that small non-influencial tidbit.
    The problem with that idea of shadow clones is that they split the chakra of the user. For the shinigami to work, Minato would need all the chakra he had, and likely couldn't afford to divide it up.
     
         

  3. #23
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    Re: The Shinigami Seal ... explained in its entirety

    Lovely, we see the death god summoning 'twice' 'actively' and a bit passively, and Cash thinks he is kishi on the matter. So far the shinigami summoning seems to be presented as you summon the death god and you get a 'wish' that can be granted. Details involved and ability for wish to be carried out are a different story and seem to depend upon the summoner. Aka We don't know everything there is to know about it until atleast near the very end of the manga. Granted we were both a bit wrong so far on the some subject ( after me reading back a bit ).

    " Oro white snake section "

    I won't deny the white snake is involved in the whole reincarnation jutsu thing. Oro being a snake is different jutsu. Oro is a human. Granted a human that can do things that normal humans can't do due to forbidden jutsu and such, but still a human.

    "Timetable"

    Won't deny the speeding up the timetable. If it was the part of Oro essence, then apparently it got repaired/replaced with the new body. Shouldn't happen if shinigami can 'only seal away souls'. Even then, sealing away part of essence is admition that shinigami jutsu is more than just 'soul of another person' sealage like the kyuubi.


    "Deal section"

    So now you are saying that the kyuubi is a person? You need glasses?

    "Look at how Oro"

    So now are you saying that Minato got into ( his ) melee range to 'hold' onto the kyuubi, despite tail slammage, paw slammage, other abilities of the kyuubi, and lord know what else and was able to hold out for the 'entire duration' with the kitsune 'unable / very restricted ability to resist' throughout the entire thing? Especially, when he had a second party to have to deal with.

    Also, you misreading my post. I never said that part about sarutobi and scroll part. Though was the option open? Apparently it could have been given all that Minato has going on so far with his version of the method, meaning Sarutobi would need proper scroll ready and what not. Oh wait, wouldn't that be going into details involved, circumstances, ability to carry it out, and what not that you don't seem to want to acknowledge?

    " key scroll "

    Kishi doesn't always flat out say everything about everything. Yes, it is the 'key' to the 'safe.' So in a matter of speaking, the other half of kyuubi chakra is 'within the scroll' / key. Admitting of this is admitting that shinigami jutsu is more than just 'stealing souls.' Even then, Jiraiya said he sealed the yin chakra using the shiki jutsu. Did he say that he sealed it within the shinigami? No. It is still possible that he did, but most of what we have for Kyuubi's yin chakra is the key scroll.

    "split into 2 parts"

    I am not denying that it was split into 2 parts. 1 part in Naruto, other part 'somewhere else'. But, mentioning of 1 seal, not more than one.

    "Shinigami jutsu"

    I'm sorry, is the manga over? No. Then this part is as to it being the only thing is speculation. Granted, it MAY have been the only thing in Minato's arsenal that could do the job. However, he had other things on his mind besides 'sealing it away' like future use of the kyuubi. Perhaps, the shinigami jutsu was the only thing that could accomplish what Minato wanted ( not just sealing the kyuubi as a stand-alone. )

    " kyuubi and minato part "

    Minato I won't deny due to the nature of the jutsu. Though apparently, he was granted a few 'perks' such as 'saying high' to Naruto. Whether kyuubi ( despite part of it in naruto ) is in shinigami, we have yet to see. Hence, the 'future aspect' that I keep ranting on about. Something else could be revealed about the seal in the future ( especially when/if naruto versus sasuke and/or madara happens in the future ). But, then this would disprove your nice little thread title there and you would have to change your theory around to match it ( which would basically prove you don't know all about the shinigami jutsu ).

    "Oro sarutobi version of jutsu"

    We saw what sarutobi wanted to do with it. And what is this? Variation? But, the shinigami jutsu is supposed to be just 'summoner's soul being sealed along with another person's soul' . Remember? Not 'summoner's soul being sealed to 2 people and attempt to seal a third only for it to not work out so the summoner is gonna hafta settle for something else that isn't just 'sealing another person's soul ' ' .

    "There is a lot more proof for my theory"

    Congratulations if there is. There was 'proof' for tengu theory. Legend of the bijuu. Tsukiyomi being 'unbreakable.' Amaterasu being 'unavoidable' / 'unstoppable' . Naruto and Pein being family members ( on another forum that I go to ), not just 'students under same mentor'. And a bunch of other shit. Some have been disproven. Other await being proven or disproven. Till then, we will have to wait and see via the 'future of the manga'. You know that nasty thing that you don't seem to want to admit to.

    "cost of the jutsu"

    Actually, the cost of the use of the jutsu was your soul being sealed away forever, etc. The rest of that stuff is what the summoner wants. Apparently, what Minato wanted involved 'bending' the sealed away rule which, going by how 4th saved the day and naruto's life, was granted.

    "shadow clone"

    Actually, it ain't small non-influential tidbit at all. There are rules governing use of shadow clones. Shadow clone being inside of naruto is admitting that the shinigami jutsu is more than just 'sealing away of people's soul' and says there is details involved, circumstances considered, etc. from the jutsu used. Please stop contradicting yourself.

    @shisui: One doesn't need all of one's chakra to summon the death god ( unless your chakra max = 'mp cost' of the jutsu ), but it seems like you need a shitton of it.
     
         
    Last edited by Holy Cowboy; 08-03-2009 at 07:25 AM.

  4. #24
    ANBU BLACK OPS Cash's Avatar
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    Re: The Shinigami Seal ... explained in its entirety

    I already stated that Sarutobi made 2 Shadow clones to extend the "reach" of the shinigami jutsu, to seal not only Orochimaru, but the souls of the previous Hokages. Therefore, shadow clones can extend the shinigami jutsu to "grab" more than the 1 for 1 deal.

    This "wish" you are talking about... What are you talking about? haha. This is the second time you mentioned it, but I blew it off thinking you were confused. But obviously you still believe that there is a wish? No. No wish. Just a contract. 1 soul sealed for your our soul... unless you manipulate the jutsu like Minato and Sarutobi.

    Yes, alot of what I said is speculation, all of the details have NOT been given. However, if you look at what has been shown about Naruto and the Kyuubi, and the battle with Oro and Sarutobi ... we are given a good idea of how it works.

    I ask that you re-read my two threads. Without thinking of this "wish" idea, and not about the Key Scroll storing the 2nd part of the Kyuubi.

    Minato stopped Naruto from unsealing the 2nd half of the Kyuubi. This is the half Minato didn't intend Naruto to use. I mean, its right there! Not in some scroll....

    Think about what we know of the shinigami jutsu, and how the Kyuubi had to have been sealed.
    1. There is a 1 soul for 1 soul contract.
    2. Sarutobi extended this contract by using shadow clones to seal 2 and 1/5 (Oro's arms) souls for his own 1 soul.
    3. Minato split the Kyuubi into halves, using 2 shinigami seals. Look at the manga of Sarutobi's battle with Orochimaru, and then imagine Minato is Sarutobi and the Kyuubi is the opponents. If you don't want to look for it. Read my linked theory, and see the images I attached to that.

    Now how you take this information, and make a theory from it is up to you... I made my theory based on logical conclusions based on the information we do have. I stress the "logical" and "information we do have".
     
         

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