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  1. #26
    �You Question Logic Child� TheTailedSage's Avatar
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    Re: Kid Kakashi vs Kid Sasuke

    Quote Originally Posted by Icelerate View Post
    I know but the moves that Sasuke used against part 1 Kakashi and Orochimaru would certainly work against kid Kakashi.

    So the clones that kid Kakashi killed were even weaker than the ones Sasuke killed since the guy kid Kakashi killed was far weaker than Zabuza unless you think kid Kakashi and part 1 Kakashi are on the same level as each other because both are jounin.

    True but graduating earlier doesn't make you smarter. Shikamaru and Sakura graduated on the same age as Kiba, Choji and Naruto. Are they of the same equality when it comes to intellect?

    He has plenty. He was able to watch out for basic traps from Kakashi which Naruto fell for easily. Sasuke managed to figure out the whole purpose of the written portion of the exam right after getting to write it. During the second round of the chunin exams, he was able to make a password too complicated for Naruto to understand so that if an imposter came disguised as Naruto, Sasuke would be able to know whether it is Naruto or not. He knew Naruto was dumb so he figured out it was an imposter even though Sakura, another bright genin, didn't.

    Okay I found the scan for you. This is a flash back one year before the story started and Gai claimed that he was just like Lee was one year before the chunin exams. That Lee was significantly weaker than the Lee that fought Sasuke.

    Sasuke is smarter than Lee, roughly equal in speed, ninjutsu and sharingan precog. Lee has slightly better speed, stamina and taijutsu. Unless Lee uses gates on Sasuke, Lee loses.

    I know it doesn't make it stronger but something like this would happen if Sasuke and Kakashi clashed their chidoris and if Kakashi did not have sharingan precog but Sasuke did.

    No he didn't. While Karin tried to tell Sasuke because she was intelligent enough to figure out Danzo's izanagi, Sasuke had already done so by than and didn't give Karin enough time to finish what she was saying.

    How is it baseless when kid Gai has no feats to judge and when he told Lee that he was weak as a kid?

    I know but saying that Kakashi beats Sasuke because one is a jounin and the other is a genin is baseless but I do see your point. If the OP gave Kakashi the sharingan, Kakashi should beat Sasuke IMO but that isn't the case here especially if Sasuke has 3 tomoe and Kakashi has no sharingan. I say Sasuke wins mid-high difficulty but if Kakashi had 3 tomoe too, he would win with mid-high difficulty.

    Illgive you that BUT when have we seen the level 2 sharingan be of any help to sasuke back in the day, the omnly time i remember is when they were doing the written exam, its been proven he cant keep up with taijutsu back then with the rock lee fight and based on current knowledge we only know kakashi back then didnt use much ninjutsu apart from chidori which he never really used, when we first saw him use it he must of never used it before that or maybe a couple times, Level three sharingan for sasuke back then would have kakashi on the wall but it all depends really on what level sharingan he has because he can get caught in the simpliest of traps although kakashi has had his simplton moments
     
         

  2. #27
    Disciple of Unorthodox Icelerate's Avatar
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    Re: Kid Kakashi vs Kid Sasuke

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTailedSage View Post
    Illgive you that BUT when have we seen the level 2 sharingan be of any help to sasuke back in the day, the omnly time i remember is when they were doing the written exam, its been proven he cant keep up with taijutsu back then with the rock lee fight and based on current knowledge we only know kakashi back then didnt use much ninjutsu apart from chidori which he never really used, when we first saw him use it he must of never used it before that or maybe a couple times, Level three sharingan for sasuke back then would have kakashi on the wall but it all depends really on what level sharingan he has because he can get caught in the simpliest of traps although kakashi has had his simplton moments
    You keep on saying that Rock Lee>2 tomoe Sasuke but that is false since that was early part 1 Sasuke compared to late part 1 Sasuke. 3 tomoe Sasuke managed to keep up with KN1 Naruto's speed, the same guy who blitzed Haku and Haku managed to intercept part 1 Kakashi's attack to save Zabuza.
     
         

  3. #28
    Mr.BlackUchiha BlackDude's Avatar
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    Re: Kid Kakashi vs Kid Sasuke

    Quote Originally Posted by Icelerate View Post
    True but I think Kakashi's body was more built compared to Sasuke's so Kakashi can maintain speed longer. I do agree with your post but some people were saying Kakashi stomps low-mid difficulty so I was trying to compromise. Kakashi doesn't need to rely on the sharingan more than Sasuke because Kakashi was made jounin even without the sharingan so in reality, Sasuke will be wasting more chakra since he'll have it on for longer while Kakashi can use it in reserve.
    I agree and I understand
     
         

  4. #29
    Argumentative Bastard Piratefish's Avatar
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    Re: Kid Kakashi vs Kid Sasuke

    Quote Originally Posted by Icelerate View Post
    I know but the moves that Sasuke used against part 1 Kakashi and Orochimaru would certainly work against kid Kakashi.
    He'd certainly have the opportunity to use some of them, yes. My point was that how well the two did against their opponents had little to do with how they measured up to them in terms of skill. Sasuke got to do whatever he thought would work, Kakashi didn't. And as it's one of the only kid Kakashi fight available, it gives a less accurate impression of what he CAN do than for example thoe Oro fight for Sasuke.

    Quote Originally Posted by Icelerate View Post
    So the clones that kid Kakashi killed were even weaker than the ones Sasuke killed since the guy kid Kakashi killed was far weaker than Zabuza unless you think kid Kakashi and part 1 Kakashi are on the same level as each other because both are jounin.
    Shadow clones are, with enough chakra in them, virtually identical in ability to their makers. Given that the Rock nin apparently specialized in them, Kakashi shows a FAR higher degree of skill in destroying them than Sasuke does with Zabuza's water clones.

    Quote Originally Posted by Icelerate View Post
    True but graduating earlier doesn't make you smarter. Shikamaru and Sakura graduated on the same age as Kiba, Choji and Naruto. Are they of the same equality when it comes to intellect?
    Graduating earlier doesn't make you smarter, but it certainly HEAVILY implies that you are. You have variations in intelligence within each grade (ex: Sasuke and Naruto) and then you have those so far ahead of the curve that they gain little or nothing from learning at the same pace as the others (ex: Kakashi, Itachi, Shikamaru). And in the ninja world, placing someone out of their depth is tantamount to killing them, so teachers ought to be VERY sure that students are capable before bumping them up a grade.

    Did I really make it sound like I though the Konoha 9 were exactly equal in intelligence?

    Quote Originally Posted by Icelerate View Post
    He has plenty. He was able to watch out for basic traps from Kakashi which Naruto fell for easily. Sasuke managed to figure out the whole purpose of the written portion of the exam right after getting to write it. During the second round of the chunin exams, he was able to make a password too complicated for Naruto to understand so that if an imposter came disguised as Naruto, Sasuke would be able to know whether it is Naruto or not. He knew Naruto was dumb so he figured out it was an imposter even though Sakura, another bright genin, didn't.
    Sasuke was able to avoid basic traps. Sasuke was able to use his bloodline limit on someone who looked like they knew what they were doing. Sasuke took a gamble on Naruto being unable to remember a poem. These aren't really shining examples of intellect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Icelerate View Post
    Okay I found the scan for you. This is a flash back one year before the story started and Gai claimed that he was just like Lee was one year before the chunin exams. That Lee was significantly weaker than the Lee that fought Sasuke.
    Notice how Gai says "you are like me" and not "you are identical in combat ability to what I was at your exact age"? He's making a statement on Lee's personality and drive, not so much his abilities as a shinobi.

    Quote Originally Posted by Icelerate View Post
    Sasuke is smarter than Lee, roughly equal in speed, ninjutsu and sharingan precog. Lee has slightly better speed, stamina and taijutsu. Unless Lee uses gates on Sasuke, Lee loses.
    If Lee stays close and doesn't allow him to use ninjutsu, he probably could win with superior endurance and strength.

    Quote Originally Posted by Icelerate View Post
    I know it doesn't make it stronger but something like this would happen if Sasuke and Kakashi clashed their chidoris and if Kakashi did not have sharingan precog but Sasuke did.
    Sasuke sees a rasengan and his natural instinct is to mash his chidori into it. Seems to me he'd want to do that in a chidori duel as well, especially if he's fighting a younger version of his teacher.

    Quote Originally Posted by Icelerate View Post
    No he didn't. While Karin tried to tell Sasuke because she was intelligent enough to figure out Danzo's izanagi, Sasuke had already done so by than and didn't give Karin enough time to finish what she was saying.
    True, good point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Icelerate View Post
    How is it baseless when kid Gai has no feats to judge and when he told Lee that he was weak as a kid?
    Answered this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Icelerate View Post
    I know but saying that Kakashi beats Sasuke because one is a jounin and the other is a genin is baseless but I do see your point. If the OP gave Kakashi the sharingan, Kakashi should beat Sasuke IMO but that isn't the case here especially if Sasuke has 3 tomoe and Kakashi has no sharingan. I say Sasuke wins mid-high difficulty but if Kakashi had 3 tomoe too, he would win with mid-high difficulty.
    I believe Sasuke could win against sharinganless Kakashi, but that Kakashi has the edge. If Kakashi has it, Sasuke would be doomed.
     
         
    Last edited by Piratefish; 11-11-2012 at 01:41 AM.

  5. #30
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    Re: Kid Kakashi vs Kid Sasuke

    the facted that curse seal is retricted should tell who stronger 3 tomoe > 2 tomoe kid kakashi is raped
     
         

  6. #31
    Senior Member GiantShuriken's Avatar
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    Re: Kid Kakashi vs Kid Sasuke

    Sasuke, mid diff. Sasuke was simply at a higher level as a genius.
     
         

  7. #32
    Only another monkey. Boskarta's Avatar
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    Re: Kid Kakashi vs Kid Sasuke

    Curse seal is restricted because it's not Sasuke's power it's an unfair advantage.

    We now know that the curse seal was developed as a way to gather Nature energy which means it's basically Sage Mode.
    Part 1 Sasuke with SM is a bit of an unfair match up.

    Kakashi's raw power is far greater than Sasuke's, Sasuke had to use the first gate to get Lee's speed it wasn't his raw strength it was a technique, a technique Kakashi didn't need to be fast or strong.


    Kakashi Chidori >>>> Sasuke Chidori


    He keeps it up long enough to take out 18 clones, Sasuke can barely keep it going for one thrust. And without the outside help of the Curse Seal he activates it 3 times, Sasuke can only manage 2.


    He also has far better senses than Sasuke he can track enemies by scent and sound even as a kid, Sasuke wasn't trained to that level.
     
         

  8. #33
    Sasuke > Your Favourite shelke's Avatar
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    Re: Kid Kakashi vs Kid Sasuke

    ^ Seems more like your opinion than facts. Kakashi was barely able to use chidori more than 3 times - 4 times - as as adult and Sasuke was able to use it 2 times when he was less than half his age, and also was able to break through Gaara's perfect defense. You think a bunch of clones even compare to that? Or his fight with a legendary sanin at the mere age of 12? Kakashi is no where near that level.
     
         

  9. #34
    Argumentative Bastard Piratefish's Avatar
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    Re: Kid Kakashi vs Kid Sasuke

    Quote Originally Posted by shelke View Post
    ^ Seems more like your opinion than facts. Kakashi was barely able to use chidori more than 3 times - 4 times - as as adult and Sasuke was able to use it 2 times when he was less than half his age, and also was able to break through Gaara's perfect defense. You think a bunch of clones even compare to that? Or his fight with a legendary sanin at the mere age of 12? Kakashi is no where near that level.
    This post is pretty opinionated as well. To use tha Raikiri effectively, Kakashi has to use the sharingan as well, which is a significant additional drain on his chakra. One Sasuke doesn't feel nearly as strongly.

    Sasuke broke through Gaara's defense with the Chidori, what's your point? Is it stated anywhere that taking out 18 clones is a testament to Chidori strength rather than duration (and skills as a shinobi)? Given that Kakashi can maintain Chidori for far longer, even having just created the technique, suggests that his is more stable and thus probably stronger than his student's.

    If you think Sasuke's fight would have lasted even half a minute with Orochimaru at all serious you should probably think again.
     
         

  10. #35
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    Re: Kid Kakashi vs Kid Sasuke

    lord sasuke would win
     
         

  11. #36
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    Re: Kid Kakashi vs Kid Sasuke

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTailedSage;9041302[B
    Sasuke was struggling to take out guys like rock lee[/B] WITH sharingan and in the end he could of got finished with the lots, kakashi at that age was way more inteligent and if sasuke was really as strong as u say he was they would of relized his power from that age, naruto is technically a sage and sasuke is a rouge ninja so civil ranks like chunin jounin and anbu dont apply for him

    when did he trap kakashi?? (show me the manga page) and as a kid his chidori limit was 2 so thats not really beifiting him a great deal if he cant hit kakashi, plus kakashi was the one who made chidori he can do it without sharingan hes just slower using it
    You aint messin with Team Gai in part 1.....

    Anyways, If Sasuke has the chidori, than you have to give Kakashi the Sharingan, but Kakashi wins this. However I disagree with Kakashi being so intelligent, he was just as impatient as Naruto was Minato had to save him?
     
         

  12. #37
    �You Question Logic Child� TheTailedSage's Avatar
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    Re: Kid Kakashi vs Kid Sasuke

    Quote Originally Posted by RockLee the Green Beast View Post
    You aint messin with Team Gai in part 1.....

    Anyways, If Sasuke has the chidori, than you have to give Kakashi the Sharingan, but Kakashi wins this. However I disagree with Kakashi being so intelligent, he was just as impatient as Naruto was Minato had to save him?
    i agreeon the first bit but kakashi wasinteligent to be ranked anu at such a young age plus he was reckless at times and too cocky for his own good but in saying that he's iq to sasukes is only a bit higher than sasuke
     
         

  13. #38
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    Re: Kid Kakashi vs Kid Sasuke

    We've seen that Kakashi was already able to use 2chidoris in Kakashi gaiden along with Sharingan, so the same amount as Sasuke in part1. He could probably even use more since we don't know his real limits in contrary of Sasuke. Kakashi has displayed greater speed and faster handseals while fighting even a skilled jounin in close combat. Both may have the sharingan, but in terms of self abilities, Kakashi is greater. He was even able to own a master in taijutsu like Gai without Sharingan when Sasuke even with 2tomoes sharingan was defeated by Lee even wearing weights
     
         

  14. #39
    ★ Fan Artist ★ Zack Blade's Avatar
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    Re: Kid Kakashi vs Kid Sasuke

    Kid Kakashi will surely win. . Remember that sasuke wouldn't be that strong without the chidori which is taught by Kakashi. .
     
         

  15. #40
    Only another monkey. Boskarta's Avatar
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    Re: Kid Kakashi vs Kid Sasuke

    Quote Originally Posted by shelke View Post
    ^ Seems more like your opinion than facts. Kakashi was barely able to use chidori more than 3 times - 4 times - as as adult and Sasuke was able to use it 2 times when he was less than half his age, and also was able to break through Gaara's perfect defense. You think a bunch of clones even compare to that? Or his fight with a legendary sanin at the mere age of 12? Kakashi is no where near that level.
    No Kakashi could use Raikiri 4 times, not Chidori.

    Kid Kakashi can use Chidori at least 2 times like Sasuke and what's more he can use it way longer. As my photo proves since he defeats 17/18 clones with one Chidori meaning he keeps it going long enough to punch them all.
    Sasuke manages one punch per Chidori...

    Sasuke fought a Sannin who a) wasn't trying to kill him and b) who's entire weakness is based around the Sharingan.
    Chidori breaks through Gaara's defense not Sasuke...I don't get why you think Kakashi's Chidori wouldn't do the same thing...

    I wasn't saying clones compare to Gaara's defense just Kakashi keeps Chidori going way longer than Sasuke that Chidori that kills 17/18 clones is probably worth 2 activations at least.
     
         

  16. #41
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    Re: Kid Kakashi vs Kid Sasuke

    kid kakashi win
     
         

  17. #42
    Sasuke > Your Favourite shelke's Avatar
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    Re: Kid Kakashi vs Kid Sasuke

    This post is pretty opinionated as well. To use tha Raikiri effectively, Kakashi has to use the sharingan as well, which is a significant additional drain on his chakra. One Sasuke doesn't feel nearly as strongly.

    Sasuke broke through Gaara's defense with the Chidori, what's your point? Is it stated anywhere that taking out 18 clones is a testament to Chidori strength rather than duration (and skills as a shinobi)? Given that Kakashi can maintain Chidori for far longer, even having just created the technique, suggests that his is more stable and thus probably stronger than his student's.

    If you think Sasuke's fight would have lasted even half a minute with Orochimaru at all serious you should probably think again.
    Are you suggesting that Orochimaru was just playing with Sasuke, then that's a misinterpretation of the entire manga. He was testing his abilities - measuring his suitability for being the next vessel - and had Sasuke died, I am sure, Orochimaru was not going to shed a few tears on it.

    So in your opinion, holding it out longer means he would've countered Sasuke's Chidori that was strong enough to last from the tip of the stadium to Gaara's absolute dome, and breach it holds no value, just because Kakashi took out a bunch of no-body clones? Right.
     
         

  18. #43
    Sasuke > Your Favourite shelke's Avatar
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    Re: Kid Kakashi vs Kid Sasuke

    No Kakashi could use Raikiri 4 times, not Chidori.

    Kid Kakashi can use Chidori at least 2 times like Sasuke and what's more he can use it way longer. As my photo proves since he defeats 17/18 clones with one Chidori meaning he keeps it going long enough to punch them all.
    Sasuke manages one punch per Chidori...

    Sasuke fought a Sannin who a) wasn't trying to kill him and b) who's entire weakness is based around the Sharingan.
    Chidori breaks through Gaara's defense not Sasuke...I don't get why you think Kakashi's Chidori wouldn't do the same thing...

    I wasn't saying clones compare to Gaara's defense just Kakashi keeps Chidori going way longer than Sasuke that Chidori that kills 17/18 clones is probably worth 2 activations at least.
    Keeping a weak chidori means nothing compared to the one that lasted for several seconds and breached Gaara's absolute defense. Also, Kindly read the parts where Kakashi taught Sasuke Chidori; he could use it only 4 times. As for Orochimaru, then sorry for burst your logic, but he was testing Sasuke. Refer to my above post.
     
         

  19. #44
    Senior Member Izuna Kakashi Senju's Avatar
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    Re: Kid Kakashi vs Kid Sasuke

    Quote Originally Posted by shelke View Post
    Keeping a weak chidori means nothing compared to the one that lasted for several seconds and breached Gaara's absolute defense. Also, Kindly read the parts where Kakashi taught Sasuke Chidori; he could use it only 4 times. As for Orochimaru, then sorry for burst your logic, but he was testing Sasuke. Refer to my above post.
    Its true he was testing Sasuke but remember he always wanted to posess the sharingan.
     
         

  20. #45
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    Re: Kid Kakashi vs Kid Sasuke

    Quote Originally Posted by shelke View Post
    Are you suggesting that Orochimaru was just playing with Sasuke, then that's a misinterpretation of the entire manga. He was testing his abilities - measuring his suitability for being the next vessel - and had Sasuke died, I am sure, Orochimaru was not going to shed a few tears on it.

    So in your opinion, holding it out longer means he would've countered Sasuke's Chidori that was strong enough to last from the tip of the stadium to Gaara's absolute dome, and breach it holds no value, just because Kakashi took out a bunch of no-body clones? Right.
    Orochimaru's Killing Intent ALONE (I honestly can't understand how you're still not getting this) caused Sasuke to fall over and puke his guts out. A single thrown kunai would have ended the match RIGHT. THEN. Instead, he gave Sasuke time to gather himself before initiating the fight.

    Orochimaru's attacks against Sasuke in that battle were:
    1 wave of projectiles
    1 fairly small snake
    1 Curse Seal bite

    The last of those took Sasuke out of commision. If anything Orochimaru was harder on Naruto than on Sasuke in that battle, as Naruto had to face:
    1 fairly small snake
    1 fairly large snake
    and 1 application of the Gogyou Fuuin.

    Notice how both of those fights ended: Orochimaru uses a single technique (one he could EASILY have used at the start of the match) and it is GAME OVER. Orochimaru was indeed satisfied with Sasuke as a potential vessel (or he didn't have a choice, as there were not that many Sharingan left in the world) but to suggest that Sasuke lasted as far as he did based on ANYTHING other than Orochimaru's lenience is ludicrous.


    On to the Chidori debate:
    Fact: Kakashi can hold it for longer than Sasuke.
    Fact: This means he has more control over it.
    Fact: Control = Strength in many aspects of both ninjutsu and taijutsu in the Narutoverse. Examples: Instant improvement shown by Team 7 after tree climbing (even Sasuke's Fireball tech was stated to be stronger), Tsunade's (and Sakura's) direct method of using control for brute strength.
    Fact: Kakashi has not shown an upper limit to what he can pierce with the Chidori. (Not even as an adult, as far as I can recall.) Given that his improved Chidori is most often translated into Lightning Cutter, I wonder if the Raikage might have fared a lot worse in a clash between his armor and Kakashi's version of the Pointy Lightning Hand.
    Fact: Earth is weak to Lightning. Sand is close to Earth. Piercing Gaara's defense with a Chidori isn't such a huge feat, as the Chidori (or another potent Raiton Tech) is the worst possible matchup for Gaara's defense.
     
         

  21. #46
    Sasuke > Your Favourite shelke's Avatar
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    Re: Kid Kakashi vs Kid Sasuke

    Orochimaru's Killing Intent ALONE (I honestly can't understand how you're still not getting this) caused Sasuke to fall over and puke his guts out. A single thrown kunai would have ended the match RIGHT. THEN. Instead, he gave Sasuke time to gather himself before initiating the fight.

    Orochimaru's attacks against Sasuke in that battle were:
    1 wave of projectiles
    1 fairly small snake
    1 Curse Seal bite

    The last of those took Sasuke out of commision. If anything Orochimaru was harder on Naruto than on Sasuke in that battle, as Naruto had to face:
    1 fairly small snake
    1 fairly large snake
    and 1 application of the Gogyou Fuuin.

    Notice how both of those fights ended: Orochimaru uses a single technique (one he could EASILY have used at the start of the match) and it is GAME OVER. Orochimaru was indeed satisfied with Sasuke as a potential vessel (or he didn't have a choice, as there were not that many Sharingan left in the world) but to suggest that Sasuke lasted as far as he did based on ANYTHING other than Orochimaru's lenience is ludicrous.


    On to the Chidori debate:
    Fact: Kakashi can hold it for longer than Sasuke.
    Fact: This means he has more control over it.
    Fact: Control = Strength in many aspects of both ninjutsu and taijutsu in the Narutoverse. Examples: Instant improvement shown by Team 7 after tree climbing (even Sasuke's Fireball tech was stated to be stronger), Tsunade's (and Sakura's) direct method of using control for brute strength.
    Fact: Kakashi has not shown an upper limit to what he can pierce with the Chidori. (Not even as an adult, as far as I can recall.) Given that his improved Chidori is most often translated into Lightning Cutter, I wonder if the Raikage might have fared a lot worse in a clash between his armor and Kakashi's version of the Pointy Lightning Hand.
    Fact: Earth is weak to Lightning. Sand is close to Earth. Piercing Gaara's defense with a Chidori isn't such a huge feat, as the Chidori (or another potent Raiton Tech) is the worst possible matchup for Gaara's defense.
    1- Doesn't look this way to me here: http://www.mangapanda.com/93-52-12/n...hapter-47.html. He's calling him a prey. Where are you getting this from?

    2 - A ninja at Sasuke's level lasting that long against a guy who made Kakashi shit his pants with his presence alone, kicked Hizuren's butt, took on two sanins with his hands completely sealed and he's near the end of his jutsu cycle. Yeah, I'll say that was a huge feat on Sasuke's part, a huge one. Keep ignoring it all you want. Doesn't help the fact that Kid Kakashi never faced any opponent any where near this level. All he faced was a jounin who took his eye out. See the difference?

    3: Most of your facts are quite ludicrous to begin with. Please show me the page that says that Kakashi holding it longer means that his chodori was much better than Sasuke's? Your assumptions about 'since we have not seen an upper limit means we can put kid kakashi at any level we want' is a more biased and funny if anything else. The fact that Kakashi is still stuck at jounin level from the start of the manga even after 16 years past that event disproves your logic by a mile.

    It was only later that he was even considered for the post. It means that he improved on everything exponentially from that level where we saw him in those chapters when he was a kid, otherwise, going by your logic - since he was such a freaking hot shot at that level, knowing some ultra improved form of chidori and what not - he would've been considered for the hokage post well before the saga started.

    Chakra control results in its better consumption and distribution for techniques, not strength. You cannot compare Sakura's chakra controlled attacks to chidori, what are you even thinking?



    Sasuke's Chidori lasted this long:



    http://www.mangapanda.com/93-118-8/n...apter-113.html - Initiation.
    http://www.mangapanda.com/93-118-9/n...apter-113.html - Greatly increased speed and Taijutsu.
    http://www.mangapanda.com/93-118-10/...apter-113.html - Still going - http://www.mangapanda.com/93-118-11/...apter-113.html - Now he is running down the stadium wall. http://www.mangapanda.com/93-118-14/...apter-113.html - Running through the stadium. http://www.mangapanda.com/93-118-16/...apter-113.html - The final hit.

    As for Sasuke's attack piercing Gaara's absolute defense not being impressive. I guess everyone disagrees in the manga, even Orocumaru:



    Sasuke's speed back then was on par with Lee without Weights:



    Chidori is dependent on speed: http://www.mangapanda.com/93-119-3/n...apter-114.html and accuracy to counter attacks: http://www.mangapanda.com/93-119-4/n...apter-114.html. And kakashi lacked the latter severely and Minato even banned it: http://www.mangapanda.com/93-245-14/...apter-240.html. But Sasuke has the Sharingen: http://www.mangapanda.com/93-119-5/n...apter-114.html . And who is to say that Kid Kakashi was at Lee's level without the weights?

    Also, Kakashi was barely able to keep his sharingen up for a few minutes - 3 or 5 minutes - when he was 26-27 as it used a massive amount of his chakra. You think he would use it for Chidori that takes up a large amount of chakra of all the things?



    In short; stop making assumptions. Kid Kakashi has nothing on Sasuke at that level. This guy loses on all fronts.
     
         

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    Re: Kid Kakashi vs Kid Sasuke

    Quote Originally Posted by shelke View Post
    1- Doesn't look this way to me here: http://www.mangapanda.com/93-52-12/n...hapter-47.html. He's calling him a prey. Where are you getting this from?

    2 - A ninja at Sasuke's level lasting that long against a guy who made Kakashi shit his pants with his presence alone, kicked Hizuren's butt, took on two sanins with his hands completely sealed and he's near the end of his jutsu cycle. Yeah, I'll say that was a huge feat on Sasuke's part, a huge one. Keep ignoring it all you want. Doesn't help the fact that Kid Kakashi never faced any opponent any where near this level. All he faced was a jounin who took his eye out. See the difference?

    3: Most of your facts are quite ludicrous to begin with. Please show me the page that says that Kakashi holding it longer means that his chodori was much better than Sasuke's? Your assumptions about 'since we have not seen an upper limit means we can put kid kakashi at any level we want' is a more biased and funny if anything else. The fact that Kakashi is still stuck at jounin level from the start of the manga even after 16 years past that event disproves your logic by a mile.

    It was only later that he was even considered for the post. It means that he improved on everything exponentially from that level where we saw him in those chapters when he was a kid, otherwise, going by your logic - since he was such a freaking hot shot at that level, knowing some ultra improved form of chidori and what not - he would've been considered for the hokage post well before the saga started.

    Chakra control results in its better consumption and distribution for techniques, not strength. You cannot compare Sakura's chakra controlled attacks to chidori, what are you even thinking?



    Sasuke's Chidori lasted this long:



    http://www.mangapanda.com/93-118-8/n...apter-113.html - Initiation.
    http://www.mangapanda.com/93-118-9/n...apter-113.html - Greatly increased speed and Taijutsu.
    http://www.mangapanda.com/93-118-10/...apter-113.html - Still going - http://www.mangapanda.com/93-118-11/...apter-113.html - Now he is running down the stadium wall. http://www.mangapanda.com/93-118-14/...apter-113.html - Running through the stadium. http://www.mangapanda.com/93-118-16/...apter-113.html - The final hit.

    As for Sasuke's attack piercing Gaara's absolute defense not being impressive. I guess everyone disagrees in the manga, even Orocumaru:



    Sasuke's speed back then was on par with Lee without Weights:



    Chidori is dependent on speed: http://www.mangapanda.com/93-119-3/n...apter-114.html and accuracy to counter attacks: http://www.mangapanda.com/93-119-4/n...apter-114.html. And kakashi lacked the latter severely and Minato even banned it: http://www.mangapanda.com/93-245-14/...apter-240.html. But Sasuke has the Sharingen: http://www.mangapanda.com/93-119-5/n...apter-114.html . And who is to say that Kid Kakashi was at Lee's level without the weights?

    Also, Kakashi was barely able to keep his sharingen up for a few minutes - 3 or 5 minutes - when he was 26-27 as it used a massive amount of his chakra. You think he would use it for Chidori that takes up a large amount of chakra of all the things?



    In short; stop making assumptions. Kid Kakashi has nothing on Sasuke at that level. This guy loses on all fronts.
    1) Here's a shot of Sasuke on hands and knees, puking: http://www.mangapanda.com/93-52-9/na...hapter-47.html

    2) OROCHIMARU WAS NOT SERIOUS. Kakashi trained under Minato. Minato was stronger than Orochimaru to the point where Hiruzen LOSES HIS SHIT and decides that Minato's coffin MUST be stopped even when the other opponents he'd have to face are Hashirama and Tobirama. Hashirama who owned Madara.

    3) We have only ever seen one case in which a Chidori has been stopped: The Yondaime Raikages armor. We definitely have not seen Kid Kakashi's Chidori fail to pierce Gaara's sand, yet you maintain that due to Sasuke doing so, Sasuke's Chidori MUST BE STRONGER. I will endeavor to disprove that.

    Kakashi is stuck at jounin level (stuck as perhaps the strongest jounin in Konoha, tied with Gai) yet there IS reason to believe he had stagnated a bit from his meteoric childhood potential. Everyone he ever cared about died in front of him. He had no one to blame, no target to reach, no goal or purpose. No reason to exist or to improve except inertia. Despite that, and the supporting evidence that even more than a decade later the man spends all his free time and more, to the point he's chronically late, mourning the dead, he is STILL one of the most powerful humans in the Narutoverse even in Part 1.

    Here's Kakashi explaining that control increases jutsu power (well, that poor control results in a weakened jutsu): http://www.mangapanda.com/93-22-18/n...hapter-17.html




    You can't count Kishi showcasing the awesomeness of Sasuke learning the Chidori as a testament to its duration. He traveled at most seventy metres and at high speed. Chidori was active for what, three seconds? Four?

    You seem to be mistaking peoples awe. People are surprised Sasuke learned a technique capable of cutting through Gaara's defense. People are surprised that Chidori is capable of cutting through Gaara's defense.

    What people are not surprised at is SASUKE'S Chidori cutting through Gaara's defense. You're mistaking awe at Sasuke's proficiency in general with awe at Sasuke's proficiency in a single technique. Most people present have no idea what the Chidori is capable of. Gai is not shocked that Chidori cuts through the sand shield, (he's the only one present apart from Kakashi to have been confirmed to even have heard of the technique before) and I don't see Kakashi drooling at Sasuke's insanely powerful Chidori usage.

    Because it isn't. That right there is an average Chidori. He even has to drag it along the ground to sharpen it, though that is normal for people not experienced with using the technique (Kid Kakashi did it too).

    Here's a shot you linked to of Gai saying that he's about as fast as a weighted Lee. Not exactly as fast, and certainly not faster. Weighted Lee could hold his own in taijutsu against 2T Sasuke, purely on the basis of experience (Sasuke copied HIS moves, and Lee's certainly sparred a bit with Gai and Neji) and far superior strength and endurance.

    I maintain that Kid Kakashi was AT LEAST at Lee's level in speed due to his training under speedfreak Minato, due to his sequentially taking out 18 versions of a jounin before said jounin could formulate another counter, due to being able to match 2T Obito in speed and combat without effort, and due to lambasting Gai.

    I maintain that Kid Kakashi is superior.
     
         

  23. #48
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    Re: Kid Kakashi vs Kid Sasuke

    ^

    1: What's your point? He's puking, yes. Still a bazillion times better than losing one freaking eye against a jounin.

    2: Orochimaru was serious enough to test him. That's all what matters here. We're talking about a Sanin level ninja here. No matter what you post, won't alter the fact that he was testing him to be his vessel. Do you think he would have gone completely lax on him on this factor alone? Please. He's calling him his prey. Summoned serpents to fight a bunch of genins, and you're saying he was not going at him with some intent to kill? Then he sent in his sound students to fight him again?

    3: Can you prove any of this that Kakashi was unable to progress due to some emotional trauma? At the beginning of the series, Kakashi was no where near the level he is now. He couldn't even use Kamui. He only grew more after the two year time skip, so it doesn't prove any of your point. The point where he is now, and the point where he was at the start of Naruto, prove that he grew a lot during his years as a jounin. Kid Kakashi was not a strong Jounin at all, not some uber powerful kid you are making him out to be.

    4: That link doesn't prove your point at all, but it actually proves what I said; effective chakra consumption for effective usage of techniques. No where on that page does it say that by controlling the chakra would raise the bar above the technique's original capability, nor would it make it stronger. It would only make it less effective if it's not controlled properly. So that point about Kakashi having more control makes his techinique stronger is your assumption only.

    5: Are you seriously making a point out of that argument? Everyone including Gaara's own Sensai, his siblings, and Orochimaru are beyond surprised that he accomplished it, who actually were using Gaara to start a freaking war with Shakuku. His own siblings and his sensai can't believe that his absolute defense got breached - which uses a massive amount of chakra by the way - which is just that, but you're bringing Kakashi into this, who knows absolutely nothing about Gaara's status as a jinchuriki or the reasons behind his defense and sand controlling prowess? Kakashi not reacting means jack, when the people who know about Gaara are beyond surprised. Show me a page where Kakashi has done anything along these lines other than take out a bunch of clones.

    6: Who is to say he couldn't have maintained it longer? He was not taking out clones, but his target was Gaara's dome of absolute defense. Not a point you can make for your own logic. Kakashi's speed was at Lee's level? Prove it please, when Lee is saying that Sasuke is exactly at his level? Don't pick links for your own counters. Lee knows exactly where he stands, and he's saying that Sasuke is exactly at his level.

    How will he hold his own? When Sasuke was a his level in just a month and it took Lee years to reach that speed level? Sure, he really would. And no. Kid Kakashi is not wining this, I stand correct.
     
         

  24. #49
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    Re: Kid Kakashi vs Kid Sasuke

    Quote Originally Posted by shelke View Post
    ^

    1: What's your point? He's puking, yes. Still a bazillion times better than losing one freaking eye against a jounin.

    2: Orochimaru was serious enough to test him. That's all what matters here. We're talking about a Sanin level ninja here. No matter what you post, won't alter the fact that he was testing him to be his vessel. Do you think he would have gone completely lax on him on this factor alone? Please. He's calling him his prey. Summoned serpents to fight a bunch of genins, and you're saying he was not going at him with some intent to kill? Then he sent in his sound students to fight him again?

    3: Can you prove any of this that Kakashi was unable to progress due to some emotional trauma? At the beginning of the series, Kakashi was no where near the level he is now. He couldn't even use Kamui. He only grew more after the two year time skip, so it doesn't prove any of your point. The point where he is now, and the point where he was at the start of Naruto, prove that he grew a lot during his years as a jounin. Kid Kakashi was not a strong Jounin at all, not some uber powerful kid you are making him out to be.

    4: That link doesn't prove your point at all, but it actually proves what I said; effective chakra consumption for effective usage of techniques. No where on that page does it say that by controlling the chakra would raise the bar above the technique's original capability, nor would it make it stronger. It would only make it less effective if it's not controlled properly. So that point about Kakashi having more control makes his techinique stronger is your assumption only.

    5: Are you seriously making a point out of that argument? Everyone including Gaara's own Sensai, his siblings, and Orochimaru are beyond surprised that he accomplished it, who actually were using Gaara to start a freaking war with Shakuku. His own siblings and his sensai can't believe that his absolute defense got breached - which uses a massive amount of chakra by the way - which is just that, but you're bringing Kakashi into this, who knows absolutely nothing about Gaara's status as a jinchuriki or the reasons behind his defense and sand controlling prowess? Kakashi not reacting means jack, when the people who know about Gaara are beyond surprised. Show me a page where Kakashi has done anything along these lines other than take out a bunch of clones.

    6: Who is to say he couldn't have maintained it longer? He was not taking out clones, but his target was Gaara's dome of absolute defense. Not a point you can make for your own logic. Kakashi's speed was at Lee's level? Prove it please, when Lee is saying that Sasuke is exactly at his level? Don't pick links for your own counters. Lee knows exactly where he stands, and he's saying that Sasuke is exactly at his level.

    How will he hold his own? When Sasuke was a his level in just a month and it took Lee years to reach that speed level? Sure, he really would. And no. Kid Kakashi is not wining this, I stand correct.
    *Sigh* So you're saying Kid Kakashi, Chuunin at 6, Jounin at 13, wartime beast who earned several titles in his early teens would lose to Kid Sasuke? I'm referring to the Sasuke after his month of training, during the Invasion of Konoha.

    Kakashi was a real prodigy; even Itachi had his sharingan since age 8 to help him achieve Chuunin at age 10 and later on ANBU at age 13. Sasuke was only considered a 'prodigy' because he was the last of the Uchiha and the Uchiha were the excelling clan at the time of their demise; it's only natural for him to be ahead of his class. However, I don't see him busting the Sharingan until age 12, and even Obito had a more impressive first use of it.

    The fact that Kakashi was wartime alone should've made this whole topic not debatable. Kid Kakashi wins vs Cursed Seal v.1 Sasuke Mid-Difficulty; remember that he used to kill a lot as a child and this is a fight to the death.
     
         

  25. #50
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    Re: Kid Kakashi vs Kid Sasuke

    ^ Again with the jounin comment. It proves what at this battle scenario? He lost poorly to another jounin. He was obviously a very very low tier Jounin then, since he was still stuck at the same level 13-14 years forward and lost to Itachi who wasn't a jounin. Also, I stopped reading at your 'Sasuke was called a genius because he was the last of his line' comment. It doesn't hold any value at what the manga has shown.

    The rest of your points? Let's say, I don't even remotely agree with them.
     
         

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