Kid Kakashi vs Kid Sasuke

[shelke]

^ Again with the jounin comment. It proves what at this battle scenario? He lost poorly to another jounin. He was obviously a very very low tier Jounin then, since he was still stuck at the same level 13-14 years forward and lost to Itachi who wasn't a jounin. Also, I stopped reading at your 'Sasuke was called a genius because he was the last of his line' comment. It doesn't hold any value at what the manga has shown.

The rest of your points? Let's say, I don't even remotely agree with them.

[T Bogard]

^ Again with the jounin comment. It proves what at this battle scenario? He lost poorly to another jounin. He was obviously a very very low tier Jounin then, since he was still stuck at the same level 13-14 years forward and lost to Itachi who wasn't a jounin.

What does the loss to Itachi have to do with his level? Orochimaru lost to Itachi when he was a kid. Is he genin level? Kakashi on the other hand defeated a skilled jounin level on his own with relativ ease in kakashi gaiden. Never know why you like to deny facts like that

[shelke]

What does the loss to Itachi have to do with his level? Orochimaru lost to Itachi when he was a kid. Is he genin level? Kakashi on the other hand defeated a skilled jounin level on his own with relativ ease in kakashi gaiden. Never know why you like to deny facts like that

Exactly. Why does his loss to Kakashi mean anything purely on battle scenario. See the silliness of this jounin logic? You obviously failed to grasp my point. This level means nothing in Naruto verse on basis of prowess. Given by this logic, Naruto shouldn't win against anyone at all, as he's still stuck where, low tier ninja labels?

[Piratefish]

^

1: What's your point? He's puking, yes. Still a bazillion times better than losing one freaking eye against a jounin.

You've repeatedly stated that Sasuke lasting as long as he did is a testament to his strength. It isn't. It is a testament to how far Orochimaru is willing to humor him. And I wouldn't say being immobilized and helpless against a Sannin is a bazillion times better than anything at all. Sakura wasn't as badly off that she puked (though she didn't exactly DO anything either) and Naruto was hardly fazed. It is likely that Oro had toned down the KI by the time Naruto arrived, but when your performance (and hardiness of stomach) is worse than pre-Timeskip Sakura in ANYTHING I wouldn't bloody BOAST about it.

2: Orochimaru was serious enough to test him. That's all what matters here. We're talking about a Sanin level ninja here. No matter what you post, won't alter the fact that he was testing him to be his vessel. Do you think he would have gone completely lax on him on this factor alone? Please. He's calling him his prey. Summoned serpents to fight a bunch of genins, and you're saying he was not going at him with some intent to kill? Then he sent in his sound students to fight him again?

Sasuke is a second-rate vessel at best. Orochimaru's progression of vessel choices is thus: Itachi (too capable even at thirteen for him to nab), Kimimaro (Despite being locked in a cage most of his childhood, in stead of having EVERY resource in the Hidden Leaf ready for him to use, being capable of taking down Lee AND Gaara at the same time AFTER dominating Naruto WHILE LITERALLY DYING) and then he chose Sasuke. It had more to do with the Sharingan than with Sasuke's own capabilities at the time of their encounter, though Oro obviously had to get him up to speed (for TWO YEARS) for him to be an acceptable vessel.

You're saying Oro WAS going at Sasuke with intent to kill? One of the snakes is taken down with a volley of shruiken. Can you name (or point out) any shinobi (even genin level) who was taken out by shruiken? I'd be honestly impressed.

3: Can you prove any of this that Kakashi was unable to progress due to some emotional trauma? At the beginning of the series, Kakashi was no where near the level he is now. He couldn't even use Kamui. He only grew more after the two year time skip, so it doesn't prove any of your point. The point where he is now, and the point where he was at the start of Naruto, prove that he grew a lot during his years as a jounin. Kid Kakashi was not a strong Jounin at all, not some uber powerful kid you are making him out to be.

Kakashi has improved VASTLY between the original series ending and Shippuden's beginning, and even during the course of Shippuden. I'd say current Kakashi could take out at least two Part 1 versions, maybe three or more. Does the fact that he's TRIPLED his combat potential in two years give a hint towards the fact that he might not have been at his peak ability during part 1? Why could that be? Crippling depression? If he'd been progressing at even half that rate during the years after Minato's and Rin's deaths and Obito's "death", he'd be easily beyond Obito in skill, maybe beyond Madara.

Answer me this: What reason DID Kakashi have to get stronger after the Kyuubi attack?

4: That link doesn't prove your point at all, but it actually proves what I said; effective chakra consumption for effective usage of techniques. No where on that page does it say that by controlling the chakra would raise the bar above the technique's original capability, nor would it make it stronger. It would only make it less effective if it's not controlled properly. So that point about Kakashi having more control makes his techinique stronger is your assumption only.

"Unless you control your chakra properly your jutsu will be weakened or not work at all." Corollary: "If you control your chakra properly your jutsu will be stronger and work better." As Kakashi's Chidori is confirmed to work better in at least one area (duration) can it be that it is stronger in other areas as well (gasp!)?

5: Are you seriously making a point out of that argument? Everyone including Gaara's own Sensai, his siblings, and Orochimaru are beyond surprised that he accomplished it, who actually were using Gaara to start a freaking war with Shakuku. His own siblings and his sensai can't believe that his absolute defense got breached - which uses a massive amount of chakra by the way - which is just that, but you're bringing Kakashi into this, who knows absolutely nothing about Gaara's status as a jinchuriki or the reasons behind his defense and sand controlling prowess? Kakashi not reacting means jack, when the people who know about Gaara are beyond surprised. Show me a page where Kakashi has done anything along these lines other than take out a bunch of clones.

Kakashi reputedly cut a lightning bolt in half, I'm surprised people are surprised Gaara's sandball isn't completely impenetrable towards everything in heaven and earth.

Kid Kakashi has used his Chidori on a person exactly twice (Rock nin and Rin) and neither of those were made of sand. However, He did penetrate Rin's heart all the way to the elbow: http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/604/19

While Sasuke used the Curse Seal's power for the same. Sasuke also missed, even while holding Naruto. http://www.mangapanda.com/93-233-11/...apter-228.html

Adult Kakashi has perfected the Chidori to a higher level, and effortlessly penetrated Kakuzu's Doton: Domu, which is stated to be as hard as diamond.

6: Who is to say he couldn't have maintained it longer? He was not taking out clones, but his target was Gaara's dome of absolute defense. Not a point you can make for your own logic. Kakashi's speed was at Lee's level? Prove it please, when Lee is saying that Sasuke is exactly at his level? Don't pick links for your own counters. Lee knows exactly where he stands, and he's saying that Sasuke is exactly at his level.

Here's Gai saying Sasuke is about as fast as Lee: http://www.mangapanda.com/93-117-4/n...apter-112.html
I trust Gai more than Lee in this instance, as Lee has never seen HIMSELF at top weightless speed and in any case is unable to register details well at that point.

Now, is Gai saying Sasuke is exactly as fast as Lee? If anything it would make sense for him to be a little slower, if only to minimize strain from moving at speeds he is wholly unused to and can maintain only for minutes. The closer you are to your limits, the faster you break.

How will he hold his own? When Sasuke was a his level in just a month and it took Lee years to reach that speed level? Sure, he really would. And no. Kid Kakashi is not wining this, I stand correct.

Exactly when Gai and Lee struck up a relationship is unclear, but Lee's speed training began when he entered team Gai. Kakashi at the point when this match is set has been an active Shinobi for 7 years, and has been training his speed for a significant fraction of those. Strength training is a bad idea when a body has yet to even enter its teens, and ninjutsu/genjutsu require significant chakra, more, probably, than can be spared in combat for a 5 year old. Speed and weaponry are the only option, and Kakashi was good enough with those two to graduate to Chuunin at 6 years old. If anything I'd figure Sasuke to be slower.

There is no term called "I stand correct." The closest is "I stand corrected." and now you have been, on multiple levels and occasions.

[JIRAIYA perv]

kid kakashi of course

[shelke]

1: The puke comment is a logic winner. Great job for bringing it up over and over again. It puts a lot of weight on your logic.

2: Your opinions? In all manga progression since the point Orochimaru set his sights on Sasuke, it's never mentioned that he was a second rate Vessel. Second best choice after Itachi? Yes. But after seeing Sasuke's progress, I'm pretty sure he was fully content with his choice, as he was literally delirious for his body alone. Your argument of second-rate vessel holds no weight here at all as the manga doesn't support this argument.

Intent to kill? No offense, but at least interpret the posts right. Orochimaru was going at him at 'a little or some' intent to kill as he desired to measure his worth. Had Sasuke died, do you think Orochimaru would've cared? The man was testing him to be his future body, and yet according to you, that puke point and humour is far more interesting and compelling logic.

3: Your surprise is not a factor in Manga's development. The Manga has made a big deal out of absolute defense and Sasuke breaching it alone puts his chidori's strength above Kaksshi's at that age, and that is made even more so by addition of Sharingen being his KG. Your points about adult Kakashi are of no value in this discussion. Maybe I should bring out 17 year old EMS Sasuke points here as well then, since we are steering in that direction.

4: So Lee's logic is false, yet Gai's logic is correct - in your humble opinion - as the whole point of Lee's inferiority resulting him to take a risky surgery later first triggered at this point; Sasuke making it to his level in just a month, and yet it took him years to develop it? A fact he keeps repeating in various forms pointing out Sasuke's heritage and what not? Making sense again is your interpretation, as the manga started on Sasuke's speed by giving Gai's view and then elaborated on it with Lee's. But it's somehow related to common sense of interpretations?

5: You have nothing to back up your claims under than guesses. The manga has a clear cut explanation for Sasuke's speed being at Lee's level. Just because you believe so otherwise doesn't make it right, nor does your assumption about Kakashi having higher speed has any underlying manga support at all. Gaara is literately a stationary fighter yet he's at kage level. This proves that speed is not even a deciding factor in climbing ranks.

P.s: Don't bring grammar or any corrections into this, as I can't edit my posts due to some internet troubles nor do I re-read them. This forum or my posts are not an illustration of my English abilities. Keep the discussion where it's meant to be kept.

[Piratefish]

1: The puke comment is a logic winner. Great job for bringing it up over and over again. It puts a lot of weight on your logic.

Personal insults also work pretty well, as you've obviously discovered. The reason I brought it up is to illustrate how Sasuke's performance against Orochimaru was quite simply poor, but you continue to deny it without adequate reasons.

2: Your opinions? In all manga progression since the point Orochimaru set his sights on Sasuke, it's never mentioned that he was a second rate Vessel. Second best choice after Itachi? Yes. But after seeing Sasuke's progress, I'm pretty sure he was fully content with his choice, as he was literally delirious for his body alone. Your argument of second-rate vessel holds no weight here at all as the manga doesn't support this argument.

Sasuke was Orochimaru's third choice for a subject. Sasuke was the only available natural Sharingan owner left in the world, and the sharingan as a bloodline ties in neatly with Orochimaru's proclaimed life ambition: To master every ninjutsu in the world. To think Sasuke was picked purely or even mostly on the basis of his potential as a shinobi is naive.

Just because something isn't directly stated in the manga doesn't mean it isn't true if there is supporting evidence.

Intent to kill? No offense, but at least interpret the posts right. Orochimaru was going at him at 'a little or some' intent to kill as he desired to measure his worth. Had Sasuke died, do you think Orochimaru would've cared? The man was testing him to be his future body, and yet according to you, that puke point and humour is far more interesting and compelling logic.

No offense is an interesting phrase, because it is invariably followed by something offensive. Personal insults again. Humor isn't a bad thing even in a serious text, as it in general makes it more readable, as long as it isn't completely off-topic and doesn't detract from the main point.

Orochimaru would definitely bemoan the loss of the Sharingan. He was willing to sacrifice 4 capable soldiers (instrumental in the killing of Hiruzen Sarutobi) all of whom had learnt one of the more powerful barrier techs in the series, soldiers he apparently was unable to replace even in two years. But that's the least of it.

He was willing to reveal his current location (if an Inuzuka or Kakashi himself had followed Sasuke his base would have been wide open for a Konoha attack), a rough estimate of his resources (as the leader of Hidden Sound) and basically offer an invite for Konoha to attack him. Even for Orochimaru, that is a serious risk. Imagine if say Shizune had been dispatched alongside Kakashi for the Naruto retrieval. She heals Naruto, Kakashi marks the base, Kakashi informs the council, council summons Jiraiya, Tsunade, all available ANBU and Jounin (and Root. Danzou does not suffer traitors, especially not those who threaten Konoha and even kill his oldest "friend"). This force is sent on a lightning raid, Orochimaru is killed and the Sound dissolved, though not without losses.

This didn't happen, but Orochimaru had no way of knowing it wouldn't. Even if he was certain of his own survival, he basically risked the ENTIRETY of his operation in Rice Country to get at Sasuke.

The reason he ruthlessly used the Curse seal was to have an element of control (one he inexplicably failed to use) and not least an incentive for Sasuke to join him. It also furthered his own immortality, as recently shown.

3: Your surprise is not a factor in Manga's development. The Manga has made a big deal out of absolute defense and Sasuke breaching it alone puts his chidori's strength above Kaksshi's at that age, and that is made even more so by addition of Sharingen being his KG. Your points about adult Kakashi are of no value in this discussion. Maybe I should bring out 17 year old EMS Sasuke points here as well then, since we are steering in that direction.

Again you state that Sasuke breaking Gaara's defense makes his Chidori stronger than Kakashi's. It doesn't. It suggests it, but as we have no evidence for Kakashi's Chidori being weaker it just isn't a reasonable belief. The reason I mentioned the Raikiri and Kakuzu's defense was that you specifically asked for similar feats from Kakashi to Sasuke and Gaara's sand (it also shows the effects of Chidori-style jutsu on earth-style defenses, supporting my point about how Gaara's shield being broken wasn't a miraculous feat), and proof that his Chidori was more potent, seeing as he shortly later developed it into a more concentrated and powerful version.

Now, from Narutopedia: The Raikiri is an enhanced and concentrated form of the Chidori with the same effects and drawbacks. (...)Because the Chidori is already powerful on its own, the Lightning Cutter requires better chakra control(...)
http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Lightning_Cutter

This proves my point about the effect of chakra control on the potency of ninjutsu, something you repeatedly denied. Kakashi maintaining Chidori for longer suggests superior chakra control, which suggests superior ninjutsu.

In addition, Sasuke has only just learned Chidori when it is first used on-panel against Gaara's shield. Something he has recently learned probably isn't an exceptionally powerful version of said move, as you keep insisting.

4: So Lee's logic is false, yet Gai's logic is correct - in your humble opinion - as the whole point of Lee's inferiority resulting him to take a risky surgery later first triggered at this point; Sasuke making it to his level in just a month, and yet it took him years to develop it? A fact he keeps repeating in various forms pointing out Sasuke's heritage and what not? Making sense again is your interpretation, as the manga started on Sasuke's speed by giving Gai's view and then elaborated on it with Lee's. But it's somehow related to common sense of interpretations?

Inferiority can be triggered by false assumptions, but my point was that Gai's statement was likely more impartial of the two. Lee has never witnessed himself run flat out unweighted, Gai has, therefore he is the superior source. Lee being envious of Sasuke's heritage is a given(not least because he appears to be an orphan), but again something which could colour his views of an accurate assessment of Sasuke's skill level.

Gai's statement is, again, he's about as fast as Lee, which could easily (and more logically) mean that he is just not quite as fast.

Common sense is a useful thing for most situations, are you really disparaging it?

5: You have nothing to back up your claims under than guesses. The manga has a clear cut explanation for Sasuke's speed being at Lee's level. Just because you believe so otherwise doesn't make it right, nor does your assumption about Kakashi having higher speed has any underlying manga support at all. Gaara is literately a stationary fighter yet he's at kage level. This proves that speed is not even a deciding factor in climbing ranks.

Guesses may not always be wrong, and mine are more than reasonable. Something that does not having any direct manga panel referencing it as a character's opinion may yet be correct, especially if there's no compelling evidence otherwise.

Gaara is now a Kage-rank shinobi, and it is indeed true that speed isn't the deciding factor in climbing ranks. However, for cartain combat styles, it definitely is. Kakashi pre-Sharingan is one of those fighters. He has a limited (and mostly unknown) jutsu arsenal, probably exclusively Raiton, perhaps some simple Doton and Suiton mixed in. However, he is not a ninjutsu specialist. He has only recently gained enough chakra that this can be a valid option in further development, and as Kakashi at this point has minor or no skills in genjutsu, his specialization IS AND CAN ONLY BE TAIJUTSU AND WEAPONRY. This what a genius surpassing Itachi's potential has trained for 7-8 years almost exclusively. Even with the Sharingan, Sasuke can't match him.

P.s: Don't bring grammar or any corrections into this, as I can't edit my posts due to some internet troubles nor do I re-read them. This forum or my posts are not an illustration of my English abilities. Keep the discussion where it's meant to be kept.

I was making a point (and a pun) on stubbornness and idioms.

[Omnipotent]

^ Again with the jounin comment. It proves what at this battle scenario? He lost poorly to another jounin. He was obviously a very very low tier Jounin then, since he was still stuck at the same level 13-14 years forward and lost to Itachi who wasn't a jounin. Also, I stopped reading at your 'Sasuke was called a genius because he was the last of his line' comment. It doesn't hold any value at what the manga has shown.

The rest of your points? Let's say, I don't even remotely agree with them.

When Sasuke was stated to be Chuunin tier by a Jounin himself. So by your own statement, you still put Kid Kakashi over Sasuke. Good job ...

[shyarkugan]

Kakashi's raw power is far greater than Sasuke's, Sasuke had to use the first gate to get Lee's speed it wasn't his raw strength it was a technique, a technique Kakashi didn't need to be fast or strong.

Wrong, Sasuke never used the gates, Kakashi trained Sasuke in speed and taijutsu for Chidori. He has never been shown to use the gates.

Kakashi Chidori >>>> Sasuke Chidori

He keeps it up long enough to take out 18 clones, Sasuke can barely keep it going for one thrust. And without the outside help of the Curse Seal he activates it 3 times, Sasuke can only manage 2.

clones are fodder, they can be killed with normal punches. Sasuke was able to tear through zabuza's clones easily in seconds with kunai, who is much stronger than some fodder. Tearing through them is like bragging about tearing through paper. Sasuke has actually shown more destructive feats with chidori than Kakashi.

He was able to tear through 3 layers of solid wall without direct contact.

On the real argument, can anyone actually say how Kakashi beats Sasuke, because all I've seen is Kakashi's rank get thrown around, which I guess would also mean Mizuki is stronger than all of the part 1 k11. Only goes to show you the lack of feats on Kakashi's side

[Omnipotent]

Wrong, Sasuke never used the gates, Kakashi trained Sasuke in speed and taijutsu for Chidori. He has never been shown to use the gates.

clones are fodder, they can be killed with normal punches. Sasuke was able to tear through zabuza's clones easily in seconds with kunai, who is much stronger than some fodder. Tearing through them is like bragging about tearing through paper. Sasuke has actually shown more destructive feats with chidori than Kakashi.

He was able to tear through 3 layers of solid wall without direct contact.

On the real argument, can anyone actually say how Kakashi beats Sasuke, because all I've seen is Kakashi's rank get thrown around, which I guess would also mean Mizuki is stronger than all of the part 1 k11. Only goes to show you the lack of feats on Kakashi's side

Now you just can't think that the clones Zabuza used are even worth mentioning, right? I find you lack other things to prove yourself correct, because Zabuza used water clones. These clones out of water have one-tenth of the original person's power, so you just wasted time even putting that there. Not to mention that earlier someone already pointed this out.

[Piratefish]

Wrong, Sasuke never used the gates, Kakashi trained Sasuke in speed and taijutsu for Chidori. He has never been shown to use the gates.

This is true, whoever said this is mistaken.

clones are fodder, they can be killed with normal punches. Sasuke was able to tear through zabuza's clones easily in seconds with kunai, who is much stronger than some fodder. Tearing through them is like bragging about tearing through paper. Sasuke has actually shown more destructive feats with chidori than Kakashi.

He was able to tear through 3 layers of solid wall without direct contact.

Zabuza's clones were water clones, stated to be 1/10th of his actual strength. Kakashi's opponents clones were Kage Bunshin, and as such pretty much identical to their creator in skill. The point wasn't how Kakashi's Chidori was powerful for taking them out but rather how his speed was on an impressive level to be able to surprise a jounin like that.

Sasuke is tearing through walls to sharpen his Chidori, to be able to use it without dragging your hand alongside walls or floor is actually more praiseworthy. Sasuke's destructive feats are more numerous, but he has also had incomparably more screentime.

On the real argument, can anyone actually say how Kakashi beats Sasuke, because all I've seen is Kakashi's rank get thrown around, which I guess would also mean Mizuki is stronger than all of the part 1 k11. Only goes to show you the lack of feats on Kakashi's side

Kakashi takes it based on intelligence (far superior), CQC (he has a sword and has taken out Gai as well as other jounin before), speed (he trained under Minato for almost a decade), Lightning jutsu skill (he actually invented Chidori and has other jutsu) and experience (has been on the battlefield in an actual war for almost half a decade).

[shyarkugan]

Now you just can't think that the clones Zabuza used are even worth mentioning, right? I find you lack other things to prove yourself correct, because Zabuza used water clones. These clones out of water have one-tenth of the original person's power, so you just wasted time even putting that there. Not to mention that earlier someone already pointed this out.

so wouldn't 18 shadow clones divide into only 1/18th of the originals power?

[Piratefish]

so wouldn't 18 shadow clones divide into only 1/18th of the originals power?

Chakra amount, yes. Skill, no. Don't be difficult.

[Omnipotent]

so wouldn't 18 shadow clones divide into only 1/18th of the originals power?

I just don't see Sasuke taking down Jonin-level shinobi at this point. Especially since his cursed seal is restricted.

[shyarkugan]

Chakra amount, yes. Skill, no. Don't be difficult.

I'm not trying to be difficult If we were talking 3T sharingan kid Kakashi I'd be fine with saying Kakashi has a pretty good 50/50 shot at winning. It's just that I think any less, I think Sasuke wins.
The way I see it: (Kid)
Base Kakashi>=Base Sasuke(I think Kakashi may be more skilled in taijutsu but his left blind spot gives him a weakness)
Gaiden Kakashi(2t)>Chunin Exams Sasuke
3t Sasuke>Gaiden Kakashi.

I just don't see Sasuke taking down Jonin-level shinobi at this point. Especially since his cursed seal is restricted.

Base chunin exams Gaara was killing jonin and Sasuke was beating him until he started going half-shukaku. Plus during war, people are ranked faster than during peace time do to the demand for soldiers. Kakashi's definitely an elite for his age, but he's not comparable to adult jonin like Asuma and Yamato during his early teens.

[Piratefish]

I'm not trying to be difficult If we were talking 3T sharingan kid Kakashi I'd be fine with saying Kakashi has a pretty good 50/50 shot at winning. It's just that I think any less, I think Sasuke wins.
The way I see it: (Kid)
Base Kakashi>=Base Sasuke(I think Kakashi may be more skilled in taijutsu but his left blind spot gives him a weakness)
Gaiden Kakashi(2t)>Chunin Exams Sasuke
3t Sasuke>Gaiden Kakashi.

I've explained my views on this in exhausting detail, refer to previous posts if you haven't already.

Base chunin exams Gaara was killing jonin and Sasuke was beating him until he started going half-shukaku. Plus during war, people are ranked faster than during peace time do to the demand for soldiers. Kakashi's definitely an elite for his age, but he's not comparable to adult jonin like Asuma and Yamato during his early teens.

Sasuke had pretty much tailored his skillset towards what worked against Gaara in previous rounds, and I personally don't believe the Fourth Kazekage could FAIL to kill Gaara in his own village. If he really needed it done, he'd do it himself. I think I remember something about him fighting the Ichibi fairly well. Gaara wouldn't even be a warm-up. More likely "Gaara-duty" was a final punishment for particularly inept jounin or even chuunin. Remember that this is all from Gaara's own testimony, and he was not exactly... stable... at the point he mentions it. You don't have to BE a jounin to look like one, and they feel about the same when crushed into paste.

It's true that during war people are often ranked up faster in military organizations. However, those who survive tend to be either very competent or very lucky, and in the ninja world where it seems like EVERY shinobi is fairly directly involved in a war i doubt luck would cut it. Additionally, and this is something people don't seem to realize, Kakashi was promoted to Chuunin before the war even began. He became a chuunin at six, Sakumo died when he was seven or so and Sakumo's failed mission seems to have been directly before the Third War began.

[shelke]

Personal insults also work pretty well, as you've obviously discovered. The reason I brought it up is to illustrate how Sasuke's performance against Orochimaru was quite simply poor, but you continue to deny it without adequate reasons.

This is not a personal attack at you, but at your logic. Puking logic is not even an attempt at argumentation, what are you getting at with it? 5 posts forward, I am still quite lost.

No offense is an interesting phrase, because it is invariably followed by something offensive. Personal insults again. Humor isn't a bad thing even in a serious text, as it in general makes it more readable, as long as it isn't completely off-topic and doesn't detract from the main point.

Orochimaru would definitely bemoan the loss of the Sharingan. He was willing to sacrifice 4 capable soldiers (instrumental in the killing of Hiruzen Sarutobi) all of whom had learnt one of the more powerful barrier techs in the series, soldiers he apparently was unable to replace even in two years. But that's the least of it.

He was willing to reveal his current location (if an Inuzuka or Kakashi himself had followed Sasuke his base would have been wide open for a Konoha attack), a rough estimate of his resources (as the leader of Hidden Sound) and basically offer an invite for Konoha to attack him. Even for Orochimaru, that is a serious risk. Imagine if say Shizune had been dispatched alongside Kakashi for the Naruto retrieval. She heals Naruto, Kakashi marks the base, Kakashi informs the council, council summons Jiraiya, Tsunade, all available ANBU and Jounin (and Root. Danzou does not suffer traitors, especially not those who threaten Konoha and even kill his oldest "friend"). This force is sent on a lightning raid, Orochimaru is killed and the Sound dissolved, though not without losses.

This didn't happen, but Orochimaru had no way of knowing it wouldn't. Even if he was certain of his own survival, he basically risked the ENTIRETY of his operation in Rice Country to get at Sasuke.

The reason he ruthlessly used the Curse seal was to have an element of control (one he inexplicably failed to use) and not least an incentive for Sasuke to join him. It also furthered his own immortality, as recently shown.

Stop assuming things, please, no one is attacking you. So he exhausted all his resources and yet, Sasuke was a second grade vessel? Thank you for proving my point, if nothing else. The rest of the tell-tale doesn't matter and is irrelevant to the topic at hand.

Again you state that Sasuke breaking Gaara's defense makes his Chidori stronger than Kakashi's. It doesn't. It suggests it, but as we have no evidence for Kakashi's Chidori being weaker it just isn't a reasonable belief. The reason I mentioned the Raikiri and Kakuzu's defense was that you specifically asked for similar feats from Kakashi to Sasuke and Gaara's sand (it also shows the effects of Chidori-style jutsu on earth-style defenses, supporting my point about how Gaara's shield being broken wasn't a miraculous feat), and proof that his Chidori was more potent, seeing as he shortly later developed it into a more concentrated and powerful version.

Now, from Narutopedia: The Raikiri is an enhanced and concentrated form of the Chidori with the same effects and drawbacks. (...)Because the Chidori is already powerful on its own, the Lightning Cutter requires better chakra control(...)
http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Lightning_Cutter

This proves my point about the effect of chakra control on the potency of ninjutsu, something you repeatedly denied. Kakashi maintaining Chidori for longer suggests superior chakra control, which suggests superior ninjutsu.

In addition, Sasuke has only just learned Chidori when it is first used on-panel against Gaara's shield. Something he has recently learned probably isn't an exceptionally powerful version of said move, as you keep insisting.

Most of your post(s) is(are) made up of prominent 'it seems so', 'my best guess is', 'it doesn't quite mean that' lines. This isn't putting more credibility on your points, it only degrades your logic. More Chakra concentration is not related to better chakra control at all, but better control over the technique itself and advancing it up a notch. Several ninjas have shown this feat, yet the manga still follows those same rules for effective chakra control resulting it an effective usage of the said technique. Kakashi holding it out longer and taking out a few clones is not a feat, in fact it looks quite pathetic compared to Gaara's absolute defense, which was quite raved through out the manga back in those days.

You are repeatedly ignoring all those basic links I posted on Chakra and Stamina usage and are deliberately calling me out on the silly notion that I am in some sort of humble denial. Perhaps you should kindly point this arrow at yourself, as all of your posts have no links to back up any of your points about Kakashi's chidori being superior, his speed being a general factor in his jounin rank - or it being significantly more than Sasuke's - or his rank problem which is quite the lark by the way, as Itachi was never a jounin and yet look at his impressive feats. He put Kakashi, Kuranei, and Asuma to shame, and yet, all of them were jounins at that point. 13 years after that fateful day when he got his precious eyeball poked at, he got beaten so badly along with his posse that I laughed. Where does that lead you to in that whole 'rank' debate? No where, I suppose.

Inferiority can be triggered by false assumptions, but my point was that Gai's statement was likely more impartial of the two. Lee has never witnessed himself run flat out unweighted, Gai has, therefore he is the superior source. Lee being envious of Sasuke's heritage is a given(not least because he appears to be an orphan), but again something which could colour his views of an accurate assessment of Sasuke's skill level.

Gai's statement is, again, he's about as fast as Lee, which could easily (and more logically) mean that he is just not quite as fast.

Common sense is a useful thing for most situations, are you really disparaging it?

There it's again, your guess work. Completely and on purpose ignoring the full elaboration of the said comment by Gai, and picking your side of the logic to win an argument. Common sense most certainly is useful; we should all fully utilize it.

I was making a point (and a pun) on stubbornness and idioms.

Was it too subtle for anyone here?

Now, to tell you the truth, I am growing tired of going around in circles. Either bring out actual manga pages to support your guess work, or don't try to be creative with it? Cool advise? This isn't me being subtle, by the way. Happy Manga digging.

[garas56]

Kid Kakashi low dif

[Piratefish]

This is not a personal attack at you, but at your logic. Puking logic is not even an attempt at argumentation, what are you getting at with it? 5 posts forward, I am still quite lost.

Okay, let's see if I can make my statement clear enough for you:

Sasuke was unimpressive in the fight against Orochimaru. He was initially effortlessly incapacitated and though he displayed sound judgement in wanting to escape a superior opponent he had no idea how to go through with that when his ploy with the scrolls failed. He was able to beat a single summon of little consequence (and displayed less than stellar situational awareness in the process) and dodge some projectiles, but that is literally everything he accomplished against Orochimaru's far from serious attacks.

Naruto displayed both a better understanding of the situation (that there was no guarantee Orochimaru would let them go even if they gave him the scroll) and better combat abilities (fending off a GIANT summon even after Orochimaru gave it permission to eat him, and even assisted it in combat with a wind tech) before being taken out by Orochi's tounge/seal combo. During this engagement Sasuke is either still so fearful that he won't move to assist his teammate, or makes the poor strategic decision of waiting to begin fighting only AFTER Naruto is taken out.

It seems more likely that it's purely fear which keeps him rooted, as it takes a motivational speech from Sakura of all people before he begins moving again. Once he's out he fights well enough, for a genin, but all he accomplishes is baring a fraction of Oro's face with no other noticeable effect.

Stop assuming things, please, no one is attacking you. So he exhausted all his resources and yet, Sasuke was a second grade vessel? Thank you for proving my point, if nothing else. The rest of the tell-tale doesn't matter and is irrelevant to the topic at hand.

You are, however, denying my reasoning through nothing but insisting my logic is poor.

Sasuke posesses naturally awakened Sharingan. There is literally no other bloodline limit in the world that is more compatible with Orochimaru's single greatest desire: To master ninjutsu totally. Even the Rinnegan (which Oro knows little if anything about) is less effective in the sheer volume of ninjutsu it naturally picks up. Sasuke is the ONLY option. No matter how capable he might or might not be, the simple fact that he has awakened the Sharingan makes him INVALUABLE to Orochimaru.

My assertion that he is a second-rate vessel has to do with Orochimaru picking him only after selecting (at least) two other, more powerful potential candidates. He requires a vast amount of grooming before he is powerful enough to be a fitting vessel.

Now, Naruto shows more potential (at least in pure power growth) than Sasuke pre-Timeskip. He nearly matches Sasuke in their traditional jutsu-clash even after taking a Chidori to the chest, while using either one or two tails, I can't remember. In any case that leaves at least seven more tails of demonic chakra, an insane amount of power. Naruto was more capable than Sasuke both in the Forest of Death (which Orochimaru witnessed) and against Gaara (which he didn't, but as it was a large-scale engagement in the middle of Oro's invasion it would be strange to think he didn't know the results of it), why didn't Orochimaru pick Naruto?

Naruto is both less controllable, more risky and less compatible with Oro's ultimate goal.

Less controllable through the risky buisness of applying yet another seal to a Jinchuuriki's body (wouldn't want to unleash the Kyuubi), but also because he is far harder to manipulate than our dear Uchiha.

More risky through the possibility of Kyuubi tearing itself free, but also the amount of power available to Naruto and him alone should he and Kurama reach any kind of accord. It wouldn't do for the vessel to become too powerful, so again Sasuke is a better choice.

He is less compatible with Orochimaru's ultimate goal because he can't automatically process and store ninjutsu information. The Sharingan, again, is the perfect Kekkei Genkai for a person of Orochimaru's views.

Most of your post(s) is(are) made up of prominent 'it seems so', 'my best guess is', 'it doesn't quite mean that' lines. This isn't putting more credibility on your points, it only degrades your logic. More Chakra concentration is not related to better chakra control at all, but better control over the technique itself and advancing it up a notch. Several ninjas have shown this feat, yet the manga still follows those same rules for effective chakra control resulting it an effective usage of the said technique. Kakashi holding it out longer and taking out a few clones is not a feat, in fact it looks quite pathetic compared to Gaara's absolute defense, which was quite raved through out the manga back in those days.

Using more moderate language shouldn't in any way diminish my credibility. Continually stating things that leave no room for doubt, yet are demonstratably wrong is a far worse path. Using assertions such as 'this is how it is', 'it's obviously like this' and 'you are wrong' aren't superior debating tactics if they are ever discovered not to be the case.

Being able to concentrate more chakra in a technique without anything going wrong can't NOT be related to chakra control. Remember Naruto's third lesson in Rasengan training? Sasuke burning his own hand while trying to use the Chidori on his brother demontrates either poor control (not controlling the direction of the power properly) or poor judgement (why on earth would he need more chakra to pierce Itachi than to pierce both Gaara's fabled absolute defense AND the boy himself), or possibly both.

You are repeatedly ignoring all those basic links I posted on Chakra and Stamina usage and are deliberately calling me out on the silly notion that I am in some sort of humble denial. Perhaps you should kindly point this arrow at yourself, as all of your posts have no links to back up any of your points about Kakashi's chidori being superior, his speed being a general factor in his jounin rank - or it being significantly more than Sasuke's - or his rank problem which is quite the lark by the way, as Itachi was never a jounin and yet look at his impressive feats. He put Kakashi, Kuranei, and Asuma to shame, and yet, all of them were jounins at that point. 13 years after that fateful day when he got his precious eyeball poked at, he got beaten so badly along with his posse that I laughed. Where does that lead you to in that whole 'rank' debate? No where, I suppose.

The manga is full to bursting of people praising Sasuke's performance in almost everything he even tries. The same applies to Itachi. This is a concious choice by the author to elaborate on exactly what can be expected of people of their age, and in Sasuke's case to set him up as a decent antagonist for Naruto (in Itachi's case as a decent antagonist for anyone at all). Just because the author moved away from this style when he'd established what most people's levels of ability were to a reasonable degree doesn't mean a genius introduced after this style of exposition was toned down is in any way inferior (especially not if their opponents are mostly superior to anything introduced as antagonists throughout part 1).

If Kakashi Gaiden (which in addition to Obito Gaiden [not a good source] are the only sources we have on kid Kakashi's level of ability) was set earlier in the manga, we could expect thought-bubbles of the 'This kid! What is he?', 'Is this the power of the Hatake clan?' and 'His speed! Impossible!' variety.

There it's again, your guess work. Completely and on purpose ignoring the full elaboration of the said comment by Gai, and picking your side of the logic to win an argument. Common sense most certainly is useful; we should all fully utilize it.

Explaining how some of the character's assertions may not be completely impartial at all times shouldn't be considered logic-pickery. These characters are (supposed to represent) people too, not impartial skill analyzing machines.

Was it too subtle for anyone here?

Obviously.

Now, to tell you the truth, I am growing tired of going around in circles. Either bring out actual manga pages to support your guess work, or don't try to be creative with it? Cool advise? This isn't me being subtle, by the way. Happy Manga digging.

Refer to Kakashi Gaiden as the only source available for Kakashi's abilities as a kid, refer to issue 47 and beyond for Sasuke's performance against Orochimaru.

I feel I have to explain something. There is just not much material available to demonstrate kid Kakashi's capabilities, so unlike Sasuke's case it just isn't a reasonable thing to do to dig around for clues. However we KNOW kid Kakashi can do more than is shown in his extremely brief battles, so what is a more reasonable thing to do?

Attempt to figure out what abilities and ability levels he lies at?

Or restrict him to exclusively use the four things he has proven to use in the manga: Fists, shruiken, sword and Chidori?

[Omnipotent]

Base chunin exams Gaara was killing jonin and Sasuke was beating him until he started going half-shukaku. Plus during war, people are ranked faster than during peace time do to the demand for soldiers. Kakashi's definitely an elite for his age, but he's not comparable to adult jonin like Asuma and Yamato during his early teens.

Yet after the fight Genma told Sasuke that he was chuunin level, and made Sasuke leave so that he himself could fight Baki. This shows that Genma believes that he has better chances at beating Baki than Sasuke does. Remember that Genma is a Tokubetsu Jonin. Once again, supports that Sasuke's at best chuunin level.

[Omnipotent]

This is not a personal attack at you, but at your logic. Puking logic is not even an attempt at argumentation, what are you getting at with it? 5 posts forward, I am still quite lost.



Stop assuming things, please, no one is attacking you. So he exhausted all his resources and yet, Sasuke was a second grade vessel? Thank you for proving my point, if nothing else. The rest of the tell-tale doesn't matter and is irrelevant to the topic at hand.



Most of your post(s) is(are) made up of prominent 'it seems so', 'my best guess is', 'it doesn't quite mean that' lines. This isn't putting more credibility on your points, it only degrades your logic. More Chakra concentration is not related to better chakra control at all, but better control over the technique itself and advancing it up a notch. Several ninjas have shown this feat, yet the manga still follows those same rules for effective chakra control resulting it an effective usage of the said technique. Kakashi holding it out longer and taking out a few clones is not a feat, in fact it looks quite pathetic compared to Gaara's absolute defense, which was quite raved through out the manga back in those days.

You are repeatedly ignoring all those basic links I posted on Chakra and Stamina usage and are deliberately calling me out on the silly notion that I am in some sort of humble denial. Perhaps you should kindly point this arrow at yourself, as all of your posts have no links to back up any of your points about Kakashi's chidori being superior, his speed being a general factor in his jounin rank - or it being significantly more than Sasuke's - or his rank problem which is quite the lark by the way, as Itachi was never a jounin and yet look at his impressive feats. He put Kakashi, Kuranei, and Asuma to shame, and yet, all of them were jounins at that point. 13 years after that fateful day when he got his precious eyeball poked at, he got beaten so badly along with his posse that I laughed. Where does that lead you to in that whole 'rank' debate? No where, I suppose.




There it's again, your guess work. Completely and on purpose ignoring the full elaboration of the said comment by Gai, and picking your side of the logic to win an argument. Common sense most certainly is useful; we should all fully utilize it.



Was it too subtle for anyone here?

Now, to tell you the truth, I am growing tired of going around in circles. Either bring out actual manga pages to support your guess work, or don't try to be creative with it? Cool advise? This isn't me being subtle, by the way. Happy Manga digging.

Shh, you're wasting time. If Sasuke was stated to be chuunin level, then he's chuunin level. Kakashi wasn't even a Tokubetsu Jonin, which could be considered "very very very low level Jonin" as you said. He was a full on Jonin, a rank he earned during wartime, and if Sasuke was Jonin-level material he would have been noticed as Itachi was.

[TheTailedSage]

Shh, you're wasting time. If Sasuke was stated to be chuunin level, then he's chuunin level. Kakashi wasn't even a Tokubetsu Jonin, which could be considered "very very very low level Jonin" as you said. He was a full on Jonin, a rank he earned during wartime, and if Sasuke was Jonin-level material he would have been noticed as Itachi was.

Is he giving you trouble -.-

[Omnipotent]

Is he giving you trouble -.-

Eh, not really. I think Ill manage

[shyarkugan]

It's true that during war people are often ranked up faster in military organizations. However, those who survive tend to be either very competent or very lucky, and in the ninja world where it seems like EVERY shinobi is fairly directly involved in a war i doubt luck would cut it. Additionally, and this is something people don't seem to realize, Kakashi was promoted to Chuunin before the war even began. He became a chuunin at six, Sakumo died when he was seven or so and Sakumo's failed mission seems to have been directly before the Third War began.

ok, Obito graduated from the academy at 9 and was promoted to chunin at 11, that doesn't mean he's stronger than any of the k11 as a kid. Most of them would beat him fairly easy even with sharingan.

Yet after the fight Genma told Sasuke that he was chuunin level, and made Sasuke leave so that he himself could fight Baki. This shows that Genma believes that he has better chances at beating Baki than Sasuke does. Remember that Genma is a Tokubetsu Jonin. Once again, supports that Sasuke's at best chuunin level.

Genma was one of Minato's bodyguards, I doubt he was weak and he could proabably beat young kakashi too. I'm gonna come out and say Kakashi is NOT jonin level, at least not by the standards of the current gen. I can name 15 current gen jonin or lower level ninja who are much stronger than kid Kakashi: Yamato, Kimimaro, Asuma, Zabuza, Temari, Kabuto, Darui, Kitsuchi, Neji(kid or part2), Jugo, Sai, Choji, and Rock Lee. His rank means nothing to me, especially when compared to other jonin. His feats only put him in the same tier as the part 1 kids. Also note that many had said the k11 gen is strongest batch they've ever had in the chunin exams.

[KILLER BE EZ]

kid kakashi>kid sasuke. my bio >http://www.narutobase.net/forums/sho...d.php?t=263317