View Poll Results: Who would win?

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  • Tobirama

    13 29.55%
  • Tsunade, Kakashi and Gai

    31 70.45%
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  1. #41
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    Re: Tobirama Senju vs Tsunade, Kakashi and Gai

    Quote Originally Posted by Omnipotent View Post
    That seems a little far-fetched in my opinion. So a Kamui Susanoo will just warp in and out of dimensions slashing everybody for fun? I like that idea
    That's what I'm hoping, but not expecting...
     
         

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    Re: Tobirama Senju vs Tsunade, Kakashi and Gai

    Quote Originally Posted by Piratefish View Post
    That's what I'm hoping, but not expecting...
    I think that'd be just unfair.
     
         

  3. #43
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    Re: Tobirama Senju vs Tsunade, Kakashi and Gai

    This is Kinkaku team time period? Yeah, Tobirama just revives his late brother Hashirama and the two of them rape their opponents up and down. Kakashi aint nothin vs the 1st.
     
         

  4. #44
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    Re: Tobirama Senju vs Tsunade, Kakashi and Gai

    Quote Originally Posted by ElectricClover View Post
    This is Kinkaku team time period? Yeah, Tobirama just revives his late brother Hashirama and the two of them rape their opponents up and down. Kakashi aint nothin vs the 1st.
    For Edo Tensei to work he has to either have prepared it beforehand or be able to kill one of his three opponents AND have enough time to complete the ritual. Tobirama's Edo Tensei is pretty weak besides, inferior to even Orochimaru's. I don't think Team 2 have any trouble even if he has prepared a (severely weakened) edo Hashirama.
     
         

  5. #45
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    Re: Tobirama Senju vs Tsunade, Kakashi and Gai

    Tobirama for obvious reason, this is stupid.
     
         

  6. #46
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    Re: Tobirama Senju vs Tsunade, Kakashi and Gai

    Quote Originally Posted by Temple View Post
    Tobirama for obvious reason, this is stupid.
    The obvious reasons of being both significantly weaker than Hashirama (though even he might have trouble with this combo) fighting three Kage-level shinobi where two have excellent teamwork, one of them able to match him in Suitonjutsu (or at least nearly) and far exceed him in S/T jutsu (according to Minato), one able to completely dominate him in taijutsu, and one able to destroy him in a single blow, dodge on a fantastic level, tank everything he's got anyway if the dodging doesn't work, AND heal the other two?

    The outcome DOES seem pretty obvious to me too, but we don't exactly seem to be on the same wavelength...
     
         

  7. #47
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    Re: Tobirama Senju vs Tsunade, Kakashi and Gai

    Quote Originally Posted by ElectricClover View Post
    This is Kinkaku team time period? Yeah, Tobirama just revives his late brother Hashirama and the two of them rape their opponents up and down. Kakashi aint nothin vs the 1st.
    You do know that Edo Tensei takes prep time, right?
     
         

  8. #48
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    Re: Tobirama Senju vs Tsunade, Kakashi and Gai

    Kakashi solo's with Kamui.

    LOL, no not going to be that guy.

    But yeah I think team 2 take this, but it certainly wouldn't be easy.

    We don't know a lot but based on what we know Tobirama has a s/t technique which from the way Minato talks about it is teleporting, probably somewhat similar to Obito's but not as fast and not going in to another dimension.
    So we can assume he can dodge fairly well.

    Tobirama could get away from Kamui with s/t. Kakashi's is nowhere near as fast as Obito's which Minato got away from, it's easy to tell when Kakashi is using it on you(see Deidara fight) you feel your body warping so Tobirama could teleport away from that.
    He also has Edo Tensei.
    Unknown who he can revive but presumably he would revive Uchiha clan members to fight against them rather than disgrace his own clan.
    His Suiton is apparently unmatched(say what you want about Kisame but he needs water or Samehada to be good)
    one of them able to match him in Suitonjutsu (or at least nearly)
    ^What? I assume you mean Kakashi? Water Wall isn't that good that's basically all he has, I doubt water is a good defense against water and Water Dragon has yet to be that good.

    Other than healing Tsunade wouldn't be that useful in this fight...


    I think team 2 would win mainly because Kakashi and Gai are just an epic duo and would overwhelm Tobirama, but it would be close.
     
         

  9. #49
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    Re: Tobirama Senju vs Tsunade, Kakashi and Gai

    Quote Originally Posted by Omnipotent View Post
    Thanks for the save, although it was kinda late . Rep

    EDIT: It wont let me give you rep, it appears I already did
    Anytime dude
     
         

  10. #50
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    Re: Tobirama Senju vs Tsunade, Kakashi and Gai

    Quote Originally Posted by Boskarta View Post
    Kakashi solo's with Kamui.

    LOL, no not going to be that guy.

    But yeah I think team 2 take this, but it certainly wouldn't be easy.

    We don't know a lot but based on what we know Tobirama has a s/t technique which from the way Minato talks about it is teleporting, probably somewhat similar to Obito's but not as fast and not going in to another dimension.
    So we can assume he can dodge fairly well.

    Tobirama could get away from Kamui with s/t. Kakashi's is nowhere near as fast as Obito's which Minato got away from, it's easy to tell when Kakashi is using it on you(see Deidara fight) you feel your body warping so Tobirama could teleport away from that.
    He also has Edo Tensei.
    Unknown who he can revive but presumably he would revive Uchiha clan members to fight against them rather than disgrace his own clan.
    His Suiton is apparently unmatched(say what you want about Kisame but he needs water or Samehada to be good)

    ^What? I assume you mean Kakashi? Water Wall isn't that good that's basically all he has, I doubt water is a good defense against water and Water Dragon has yet to be that good.

    Other than healing Tsunade wouldn't be that useful in this fight...


    I think team 2 would win mainly because Kakashi and Gai are just an epic duo and would overwhelm Tobirama, but it would be close.
    We have no idea what Tobirama's S/T is (I'm leaning towards some sort of dimensional pocket filled entirely with water) but assuming he can dodge Kamui with it? Seems unlikely, not least because Minato stated Kamui to be far superior to it. I'm aware it was Obito's Kamui, but they are more or less equal in potency, at least now that Kakashi has become more capable with it.

    Kakashi can use the Water Wall, Clone, Shark Bullet, Great Waterfall and Dragon Bullet. None of these are on the scale of Tobirama's rumored ability, but Great Waterfall is about as large as Tobirama's jutsu agains Hiruzen. Note that I'm not suggesting this battle is anywhere near his limits, but rather that Kakashi has shown an aptitude for Water Release and more importantly nullifying even Master Water users moves before. If there is a nearby water source Kakashi can nullify his techniques for a while, though Tobirama could easily outlast him in a pure ninjutsu battle.

    Kakashi is also capable with Earth Walls, which posses the elemental advantage against water. Tobirama has shown himself capable of carving through Hiruzen's mud wall, so it may not make much of a difference.

    Gai would eventually overwhelm him in taijutsu, and could end the match with a well-placed Hirudora.

    Tsunade could heal and replenish the Eternal Rivals in terms of chakra, or take to the field herself.
     
         

  11. #51
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    Re: Tobirama Senju vs Tsunade, Kakashi and Gai

    Quote Originally Posted by Boskarta View Post
    Kakashi solo's with Kamui.

    LOL, no not going to be that guy.

    But yeah I think team 2 take this, but it certainly wouldn't be easy.

    We don't know a lot but based on what we know Tobirama has a s/t technique which from the way Minato talks about it is teleporting, probably somewhat similar to Obito's but not as fast and not going in to another dimension.
    So we can assume he can dodge fairly well.

    Tobirama could get away from Kamui with s/t. Kakashi's is nowhere near as fast as Obito's which Minato got away from, it's easy to tell when Kakashi is using it on you(see Deidara fight) you feel your body warping so Tobirama could teleport away from that.
    He also has Edo Tensei.
    Unknown who he can revive but presumably he would revive Uchiha clan members to fight against them rather than disgrace his own clan.
    His Suiton is apparently unmatched(say what you want about Kisame but he needs water or Samehada to be good)

    ^What? I assume you mean Kakashi? Water Wall isn't that good that's basically all he has, I doubt water is a good defense against water and Water Dragon has yet to be that good.

    Other than healing Tsunade wouldn't be that useful in this fight...


    I think team 2 would win mainly because Kakashi and Gai are just an epic duo and would overwhelm Tobirama, but it would be close.
    It took the Kinkaku Force to overwhelm Tobirama, and remember, there were 20 of them. They were certainly above Jonin level, although I wouldn't say that they would be allowed to be around Kakashi and Gai's level; remember once again, there were 20 of them. If Tobirama has only been shown to lose to that (and they don't show HOW he lost to these people, other than that he was used as bait and as a sacrifice essentially), I doubt that Kakashi and Gai can take him.

    Just my opinion.
     
         

  12. #52
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    Re: Tobirama Senju vs Tsunade, Kakashi and Gai

    Quote Originally Posted by Omnipotent View Post
    It took the Kinkaku Force to overwhelm Tobirama, and remember, there were 20 of them. They were certainly above Jonin level, although I wouldn't say that they would be allowed to be around Kakashi and Gai's level; remember once again, there were 20 of them. If Tobirama has only been shown to lose to that (and they don't show HOW he lost to these people, other than that he was used as bait and as a sacrifice essentially), I doubt that Kakashi and Gai can take him.

    Just my opinion.
    Ah, but remember that Tobirama knew he would be overwhelmed, even with the help of both Hiruzen AND Danzou, as well as whoever was with them, don't recall exactly who. Hiruzen at that age was good enough to become Hokage immediately after Tobirama died, and Danzou was his rival (and probably closest rival candidate). If Tobirama was sure the Kinkaku Force would overwhelm even three Kage-level shinobi you can't use their numbers as a testament to Tobirama's strength.
     
         

  13. #53
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    Re: Tobirama Senju vs Tsunade, Kakashi and Gai

    Quote Originally Posted by Piratefish View Post
    Ah, but remember that Tobirama knew he would be overwhelmed, even with the help of both Hiruzen AND Danzou, as well as whoever was with them, don't recall exactly who. Hiruzen at that age was good enough to become Hokage immediately after Tobirama died, and Danzou was his rival (and probably closest rival candidate). If Tobirama was sure the Kinkaku Force would overwhelm even three Kage-level shinobi you can't use their numbers as a testament to Tobirama's strength.
    Not exactly. He wanted the younger generation of Konoha to live, which means he was sure that at LEAST one of them would die, but not necessarily himself. This also shows that he is 'an inheritor of the Will of Fire' by his selflessness; he is willing to die for any one of his students/comrades.
     
         

  14. #54
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    Re: Tobirama Senju vs Tsunade, Kakashi and Gai

    Quote Originally Posted by Omnipotent View Post
    Not exactly. He wanted the younger generation of Konoha to live, which means he was sure that at LEAST one of them would die, but not necessarily himself. This also shows that he is 'an inheritor of the Will of Fire' by his selflessness; he is willing to die for any one of his students/comrades.
    The Hokage is the most important member of the village, so he SHOULD be willing to sacrifice a ninja or two for the sake of his own existence. That's why Konoha has walls, and guards on those walls, and bodyguard ANBU. Sacrificing a potential Kage for the sake of an established and effective Kage makes logical sense.
     
         

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    Re: Tobirama Senju vs Tsunade, Kakashi and Gai

    Quote Originally Posted by Piratefish View Post
    The Hokage is the most important member of the village, so he SHOULD be willing to sacrifice a ninja or two for the sake of his own existence. That's why Konoha has walls, and guards on those walls, and bodyguard ANBU. Sacrificing a potential Kage for the sake of an established and effective Kage makes logical sense.
    Why would he let several S-rank and Kage-level shinobi/kunoichi die for his own sake? That greatly contradicts the Will of Fire, which Hiruzen got from both Hashirama and Tobirama.
     
         

  16. #56
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    Re: Tobirama Senju vs Tsunade, Kakashi and Gai

    Quote Originally Posted by Omnipotent View Post
    Why would he let several S-rank and Kage-level shinobi/kunoichi die for his own sake? That greatly contradicts the Will of Fire, which Hiruzen got from both Hashirama and Tobirama.
    In Danzo's memories it is presented as a "one stays behind and stalls them" type situation. Tobirama'd be sacrificing a single low S-rank shinobi to save one high S-rank, as well as maintaining Konoha's image to a degree, as the death of a Kage always equals loss of prestige, unless people believe he "killed the Kyuubi" or some such. No only that but there'd be a fair amount of inner turmoil as the powerbase shifted (either drastically or not so much) and there's no guarantee the new Kage would be as good as he was. He'd deprive the Senju clan of a head, and Konoha as a whole of his extensive knowledge and experience. It's also possible he could resurrect the lost shinobi in some way to either say farewell or serve on even in death.
     
         

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    Re: Tobirama Senju vs Tsunade, Kakashi and Gai

    Quote Originally Posted by Piratefish View Post
    In Danzo's memories it is presented as a "one stays behind and stalls them" type situation. Tobirama'd be sacrificing a single low S-rank shinobi to save one high S-rank, as well as maintaining Konoha's image to a degree, as the death of a Kage always equals loss of prestige, unless people believe he "killed the Kyuubi" or some such. No only that but there'd be a fair amount of inner turmoil as the powerbase shifted (either drastically or not so much) and there's no guarantee the new Kage would be as good as he was. He'd deprive the Senju clan of a head, and Konoha as a whole of his extensive knowledge and experience. It's also possible he could resurrect the lost shinobi in some way to either say farewell or serve on even in death.
    Stall? No, the person who does that will die. I doubt Tobirama would actually let that occur, once again him being an inheritor of the Will of Fire would cause him to assist the person who runs off to die. And if the Hokage goes, the whole squad goes. All of them together dying? No way. Hiruzen, Danzo or Kagami kill two while stalling for Tobirama, Tobirama uses Edo Tensei to revive Hashirama. Homura may die during this process. Both Hashirama and Homura are revived. Kinkaku Force flees or is defeated. Tobirama died only because plot told him to.

    Using your old comrades to serve the village?! What kind of sadistic bastard would do that?! (Don't even, there are many)
     
         

  18. #58
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    Re: Tobirama Senju vs Tsunade, Kakashi and Gai

    Quote Originally Posted by Omnipotent View Post
    Stall? No, the person who does that will die. I doubt Tobirama would actually let that occur, once again him being an inheritor of the Will of Fire would cause him to assist the person who runs off to die. And if the Hokage goes, the whole squad goes. All of them together dying? No way. Hiruzen, Danzo or Kagami kill two while stalling for Tobirama, Tobirama uses Edo Tensei to revive Hashirama. Homura may die during this process. Both Hashirama and Homura are revived. Kinkaku Force flees or is defeated. Tobirama died only because plot told him to.

    Using your old comrades to serve the village?! What kind of sadistic bastard would do that?! (Don't even, there are many)
    You can easily die stalling someone, particularly if that someone is a group of 20 skilled Kumo-nin all out for blood. I too doubt Tobirama would leave a comrade behind like that (as he didn't, canon) but there are arguments to be made for it being the more rational decision. If the Hokage orders them to go on without him they will (as they did, canon).

    So Hashirama would be used to serve the village? Well, the Hokage, and he probably would if he could.

    I do agree that Tobirama's death seemed a bit like a cop-out, as did Hashi's. They both would have benefited from some closure on their stories (why are villains the only ones who get that?) and it would have been an excellent opportunity to introduce some powerful potential edos.

    I meant the revival remark as a way of saying farewell for whoever felt they needed to, as well as allowing whoever it was to serve on if they so decided. If Tobirama had lived on, would Konoha have become a village of volunteer zombies?
     
         

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    Re: Tobirama Senju vs Tsunade, Kakashi and Gai

    Quote Originally Posted by Piratefish View Post
    You can easily die stalling someone, particularly if that someone is a group of 20 skilled Kumo-nin all out for blood. I too doubt Tobirama would leave a comrade behind like that (as he didn't, canon) but there are arguments to be made for it being the more rational decision. If the Hokage orders them to go on without him they will (as they did, canon).

    So Hashirama would be used to serve the village? Well, the Hokage, and he probably would if he could.

    I do agree that Tobirama's death seemed a bit like a cop-out, as did Hashi's. They both would have benefited from some closure on their stories (why are villains the only ones who get that?) and it would have been an excellent opportunity to introduce some powerful potential edos.

    I meant the revival remark as a way of saying farewell for whoever felt they needed to, as well as allowing whoever it was to serve on if they so decided. If Tobirama had lived on, would Konoha have become a village of volunteer zombies?
    Hiruzen won't die, he's a plot bunny so he should be able to take a few out on his own. Danzo is a semi-plot bunny, he may take out 1-2. Kagami is an elite Uchiha, by default he takes out 1. But I can see Hiruzen and Danzo being severely injured, and Kagami dying. If they die, they can be Edo'd.

    Hashirama will have his own free will at that point. He will be used to fight the Kinkaku Force, and if he decides to go back to the realm of the dead, then Tobirama would oblige.

    Volunteer zombies? Of course, as long as it keeps Kumo and Iwa in line.
     
         

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    Re: Tobirama Senju vs Tsunade, Kakashi and Gai

    Quote Originally Posted by Piratefish View Post
    For Edo Tensei to work he has to either have prepared it beforehand or be able to kill one of his three opponents AND have enough time to complete the ritual. Tobirama's Edo Tensei is pretty weak besides, inferior to even Orochimaru's. I don't think Team 2 have any trouble even if he has prepared a (severely weakened) edo Hashirama.
    I'm sure Tobirama wouldn't have wasted his time inventing a technique and preparing edos unless they were really strong. My guess is he had Hashirama. The summoning is instantaneous and can actually work to block attacks. Tobirama's ET was 'incomplete,' not weak. That may be because he could only summon one edo; we don't know for sure. And with Tobirama and Hashirama working together I don't think one would be able to find a team that wouldn't have any trouble beating them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Piratefish View Post
    The obvious reasons of being both significantly weaker than Hashirama (though even he might have trouble with this combo) fighting three Kage-level shinobi where two have excellent teamwork, one of them able to match him in Suitonjutsu (or at least nearly) and far exceed him in S/T jutsu (according to Minato), one able to completely dominate him in taijutsu, and one able to destroy him in a single blow, dodge on a fantastic level, tank everything he's got anyway if the dodging doesn't work, AND heal the other two?

    The outcome DOES seem pretty obvious to me too, but we don't exactly seem to be on the same wavelength...
    Being weaker than Hashirama doesn't mean anything. Quite a lot of people are weaker than Hashirama; I could count on one hand those who are stronger. Tsunade is weak Kage level as she has no ranged techniques whatsoever, Kakashi is weak Kage level because his stamina is crap, and Gai is weak Kage level because he's not the brightest and can only use his strongest attack once. So none of them are actually good Kage material on their own, like Tobirama is. Tsunade and Gai do not have suiton; if you are suggesting that Kakashi's suiton can even get close to Tobirama's level I call fanboy. None of them have s/t, sorry; only Tobirama can teleport here. Saying that Gai can defeat Tobirama with one blow is not only trolling, it's incorrect. Tobirama being a senjutsu doubtless would have hoardes of water clones and if Gai attacks the wrong one with his one-shot, he's down for the rest of the battle. I've never seen anything from any of the three of them that suggests they are good at dodging. Tsunade only tanks and Kakashi's lightning clones get hit all the time. As for the tanking and healing, neither of those really work when one is being drowned.

    I wouldn't say the outcome is obvious either way but from the start I'd say Tobirama has a definite advantage.
     
         

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