Tobirama Senju vs Tsunade, Kakashi and Gai

[Piratefish]

Because they're miserable people.

Uchiha < "Lesser" people

I very much know that. I was channeling them (it was a harrowing experience).

[ElectricClover]

Well. Hiruzen did. Old Hiruzen. Alone.

Tobirama invented a technique and labeled it a kinjutsu either because he wanted nothing to do with it or because he wanted to be the only user of it. His early death prevented him from perfecting it - Orochimaru states that he has improved the technique, should we doubt him (he's sometimes an unreliable source) but Kabuto said he himself had mastered it beyond Oro and he was NOT lying.

Oro's Edo's were pansies, and he's not exactly the type to use a WEAKER version of any technique he knows the information of.

We can only assume that Tobirama left behind an unfinished tech, like Minato after him. Finished, here, is nearly self-evidently "stronger".





This is reasonable, no? In any case Kakashi only needs to weaken Tobirama's jutsu enough that Team 2 survives, and Tobirama IS dealing with three opponents. If Gai get in close, the battle is pretty much won. If Kamui or Raikiri can be landed (the second one only needs a momentary mistake), the battle is won. If Tsunade can land a punch, (harder than any of the other things) the battle is won.

Tobirama has never demonstrated teleportation or have teleportation described as one of his abilities, the ONLY source we have on that is Minato stating that Kamui (Obito version) was STRONGER than the Second's jutsu. Are you deciding that Kakashi doesn't have Kamui in this battle?

If Gai lands Hirudora, the battle is won. I think you mean him being a Senju, not a Sage. Gai has in the war been fighting for quite a while, has used Hirudora once, and is still standing. Regardless of how capable he is at this point, he is not finished fighting. He also still has Death Gate. He can also, if Kakashi is capable of stalling Tobirama for even a short while, go off and have himself fixed up by Tsunade, enabling multiple Hirudoras (Hirudorae?)

Gai is not the most intelligent of shinobi but you can't argue about his results in battle: He's not dumb. Hirudora also isn't an "Oh no I missed the real one out of twenty Water Clones" type jutsu, but rather a "Take out target and the City District he's located in" type jutsu: Even if it doesn't hit directly doesn't mean it won't do damage.

Hordes of water clones only make them weaker, and water clones are pretty weak to begin with. Sasuke destroyed Zabuza's water clones without difficulty, and the difference between Tobirama and Team 2 (any of them) is not as significant as the difference between Wave Arc Sasuke and Zabuza. Water Clones are fodder, really, in this sort of battle. If all else fails Gai can use Morning Peacock.

You really believe none of them can dodge for shit? Tsunade trained Sakura and focused MASSIVELY on dodging techniques, why do you think that is? Was it because a med-nin should keep out of harms way and Tsunade didn't ALWAYS have the Byakugou?

Kakashi has a fair amount of speed and the Sharingan, as well as being able to warp attacks (and himself) away. He can get out of trouble. His lightning clones "getting hit all the time" is a strange thing to say, as I can only remember it being used once and enabled him to take out Pein's Asura Path, which is arguably the second strongest of the lot. Clone feints are a valid tactic sometimes.

Gai just has MASSIVE speed. It's enough.

Kakashi's stamina is better than it's ever been, and he has held his own even without extraordinary stamina against VERY powerful ninja in the past.



You have three Mid Kage-Level shinobi versus one who is only possibly High Kage-Level. Two of the more numerous team posess abilities which WIN IT if they choose to die in the attempt. (Kakashi and Gai)

Team 2 take it, though not easily.

I think Hiruzen's battle against his predecessors is the most obvious example of power scaling in Naruto. Obviously considering old Hiruzen's abilities and what we know of the Senju bros now there is almost zero chance he could take them 2 on 1.

Again, it is merely said that Tobirama's et is incomplete. It could be that he could only summon one person. In that case, yes, Oro would have greatly improved et by making it so one could summon multiple edos. And summoning several Hokages is a feat that could be considered improved from whatever Tobirama had in any circumstance. They were weak because, like I mentioned, the battle that involved them was early in Part 1 and frankly they were much stronger than anything we'd seen before at that point. However, naturally, the characters got stronger as time went on. Now, Tobirama's water wall on dry land that was an incredible technique that made him worthy of being Hokage is casually used by Darui. And obviously Hashirama possessed a vast array of techniques more than he depicted in that battle. So it is clear that Tobirama summoning his brother now would entail a truly awesome force on the level of the current battlers, Naruto, Bee, Obito, etc.

Like you said, Minato referenced the Second's s/t. He can teleport, and therefore avoid the strikes of his opponents and certainly Tsunade's. That is not to say of course that they couldn't land a hit after some trickery, but Tobirama isn't stupid and so is not outsmarted easily. I'd say Kakashi might have the aptitude to do so, however. Of course Kakashi has kamui in this battle. But given that it takes a longer time for him to kamui things that are far away and Tobirama can teleport if he sees Kakashi doing so, coupled with the fact that almost every time Kakashi kamuis he does so in defense. In my opinion he'd most certainly have to do that here.

Gai is battling after Hirudora solely because he was reinvigorated by Kurama. Now though there is the possibility Tsunade might be able to revive him (though my guess would be that it would take a very long time as she's not a tailed beast). However, I am of the belief that there's no way Kakashi alone could hold off Tobirama. I just can't see Gai spamming Hirudorae (nice). And the chakra of the Senju is formidable if not almost sage level.

I actually believe that Gai would be on the lower end of the scale in terms of intelligence; just my opinion. Perhaps it's only been recently that he's developed into more of a comic role. In any case, Hirudora is less effective than you believe. I seem to remember it striking Kisame point blank, head-on, and leaving him only temporarily weakened, even still able to perform jutsu. Though I just cannot see Gai using his Hirudora (and most likely his only one) wisely, I don't really think Tobirama would be much worse for wear if he was hit by one, though it may cost him the battle considering his other opponents.

Oh, I wouldn't say water clones are fodder. And I don't think Zabuza's really match up to Tobirama's. Tobirama can not only fake out his enemies with the clones, they can perform water jutsus themselves and also, lest we forget, put their opponents in water prisons if they get to close. And they wouldn't really take too much of a chunk out of Tobirama's chakra, either, if he used them wisely. And though morning peacock would be effective against them that means Gai's used up in this battle. That'd probably be worth the amount of chakra spent on the clones anyway.

Tsunade trained Sakura in dodging techniques, okay. That's Sakura. Frankly, big deal. Kishimoto set that up because Sakura was fighting Sasori. Now there is extensive proof in the manga that Tsunade really can't dodge 'for shit.' Maybe because she's too slow, maybe because she knows she can heal anyway. Either way, she just doesn't evade strikes.

Yes, I suppose the Kakashi points are all correct; Tobirama would have the hardest time getting rid of him. But in any case Chouza said that Kakashi always hid and used a lightning clone to test the enemy, so, yes, the lightning clones would almost always be destroyed, at the price of knowledge for Kakashi, admittedly a powerful weapon.

I would not say that Gai's speed is massive and it certainly didn't help him against Kisame when Kisame flooded the field with water. Plus, I hate to keep bringing up the same point, but Tobirama can teleport.

Oh come on, you've gotta give me Kakashi's low stamina. Sure it's better now, but it's crap, everyone knows that. That's the thing that prevents him from being too effective in this battle, as he would if he could keep spamming kamui.

I would say the three of them are low Kage level, a distinction which has only come about because Tsunade and Mei are such weak Kages. Whereas the other Kages were all well into boss level in the past, now Darui could be considered 'low Kage level.' Tobirama is definitely well above them and considering his techniques possesses the upper hand in my opinion.

However, it is true that they are a very dangerous combination. While Tobirama can s/t we don't know if that's the same dimension that Kakashi abets the destruction of Obito by using against him. Kakashi is probably smart enough to trick Tobirama, his kamui and Gai's attacks could be replenished by Tsunade if they could work it out right, and she can heal them and Kakashi does have another dimension to hide his allies in (though probably not both at once). Tobirama's massive water jutsus would be tricky but I don't think he has the water bubble, so if they avoid his clones (and subsequent prisons) they can run and water and so survive. This is all if they are able to coordinate their attacks just right to overcome Tobirama. I concede that they'd win, say 6/10-- but-- if Tobirama can summon a fully operational, as it were, Hashirama, then I would give it to the brothers without a second thought.

[Piratefish]

I think Hiruzen's battle against his predecessors is the most obvious example of power scaling in Naruto. Obviously considering old Hiruzen's abilities and what we know of the Senju bros now there is almost zero chance he could take them 2 on 1.

No, the ENTIRE battle suffered power scaling differences. Oro's version of Edo Tensei was still not complete to its full potential, and as such Hiruzen was able to match the Senju Bros. He had Enma, a Kage-level taijutsu fighter, a fighting style unknown to the brothers, and intimate familiarity with AT LEAST Tobirama's techniques. He also had Shiki Fuuin, and that served him well enough. If Hiruzen fought against Oro's incomplete Senju combo in part 2, he would still have won.

Again, it is merely said that Tobirama's et is incomplete. It could be that he could only summon one person. In that case, yes, Oro would have greatly improved et by making it so one could summon multiple edos. And summoning several Hokages is a feat that could be considered improved from whatever Tobirama had in any circumstance. They were weak because, like I mentioned, the battle that involved them was early in Part 1 and frankly they were much stronger than anything we'd seen before at that point. However, naturally, the characters got stronger as time went on. Now, Tobirama's water wall on dry land that was an incredible technique that made him worthy of being Hokage is casually used by Darui. And obviously Hashirama possessed a vast array of techniques more than he depicted in that battle. So it is clear that Tobirama summoning his brother now would entail a truly awesome force on the level of the current battlers, Naruto, Bee, Obito, etc.

It was incomplete, and Orochimaru improved it. AT MOST, he should be able to summon a Hashirama on the level shown against Hiruzen, adjusted for power differences. But not adjusted as far as you seem to think. If Old Hiruzen can deal with the Edo Senju Bros, these three can deal with an Incomplete Edo and a real one.

On the other hand it's entirely possible that Tobirama's Edo Tensei simply CAN'T be used to summon high-level ninja at their full potential. Perhaps it summons hordes of genin-level opponents? We just don't know.

In any case, he has no sacrifice, no genetic material save his own, and prep time wasn't specified in the scenario. He probably can't even summon ANYONE.

Like you said, Minato referenced the Second's s/t. He can teleport, and therefore avoid the strikes of his opponents and certainly Tsunade's. That is not to say of course that they couldn't land a hit after some trickery, but Tobirama isn't stupid and so is not outsmarted easily. I'd say Kakashi might have the aptitude to do so, however. Of course Kakashi has kamui in this battle. But given that it takes a longer time for him to kamui things that are far away and Tobirama can teleport if he sees Kakashi doing so, coupled with the fact that almost every time Kakashi kamuis he does so in defense. In my opinion he'd most certainly have to do that here.

Not every S/T is teleportation. We have no evidence AT ALL that Tobirama can teleport. Kamui is hard if not impossible to avoid without having Kamui yourself (even Minato wouldn't have been able to avoid it if Obito had been serious). Saying a completely undemonstrated S/T would be able to escape Kamui when FTG wouldn't have been enough had Obito been serious is just not rational.

Kuchiose is an S/T. Edo Tensei is an S/T. Not saying it's the only S/T Tobirama could use, but it's definitely a possibility. A far likelier one than that he can teleport on the level of FTG without even using superkunai.

Gai is battling after Hirudora solely because he was reinvigorated by Kurama. Now though there is the possibility Tsunade might be able to revive him (though my guess would be that it would take a very long time as she's not a tailed beast). However, I am of the belief that there's no way Kakashi alone could hold off Tobirama. I just can't see Gai spamming Hirudorae (nice). And the chakra of the Senju is formidable if not almost sage level.

Gai was battling BEFORE using Hirudora for quite a while. He'd already been fighting for the past few days, not least on the same day, against the Jinchuuriki, where he used Asa Kujaku. A single Hirudora has NEVER been enough to tire him out.

Tsunade is in two pieces right now, yet she's about to heal the Kages. Five of them. From lethal injuries. Of course, if she dies halfway through the first one, then that's that. I somehow doubt it, though. If she's not exhausted from fighting the likes of Madara, woozy from massive blood-loss, chakra-depleted from fighting the likes of Madara...

She'd heal Gai's Gate damage EASILY, is what I'm saying.

I actually believe that Gai would be on the lower end of the scale in terms of intelligence; just my opinion. Perhaps it's only been recently that he's developed into more of a comic role. In any case, Hirudora is less effective than you believe. I seem to remember it striking Kisame point blank, head-on, and leaving him only temporarily weakened, even still able to perform jutsu. Though I just cannot see Gai using his Hirudora (and most likely his only one) wisely, I don't really think Tobirama would be much worse for wear if he was hit by one, though it may cost him the battle considering his other opponents.

Oh he's not brilliant, but he doesn't need to be. He can fight someone from watching the way they shift their weight: Gai is peerless within his chosen field. His "stupidity" seems to work out pretty well for him; Kisame was VERY annoyed by his "inability" to remember his name, and annoyance makes you sloppy. You don't survive to be a ninja of Gai's level by making mistakes in battle.

Hirudora has overcome extremely powerful chakra constructs every time it's been used; Kisame, the "Tailless Bijuuu" used his single strongest technique to counter, Madara's Complete Susano'o vanished and he was unable to continue the battle for a whole issue. Whether or not he would have been killed is irrelevant: Hirudora took him out, just like Kisame. If it lands, Tobirama is beaten. Unless Tobirama posesses a defense more powerful than Madara's Susano'o and can immediately counter Kakashi and Tsunade's attacks.

Oh, I wouldn't say water clones are fodder. And I don't think Zabuza's really match up to Tobirama's. Tobirama can not only fake out his enemies with the clones, they can perform water jutsus themselves and also, lest we forget, put their opponents in water prisons if they get to close. And they wouldn't really take too much of a chunk out of Tobirama's chakra, either, if he used them wisely. And though morning peacock would be effective against them that means Gai's used up in this battle. That'd probably be worth the amount of chakra spent on the clones anyway.

Water clones are pretty much solely useful for water techniques, being so much weaker than, say, shadow clones. They'd be easily taken out by any of Tobirama's opponents in hand to hand, and en masse by techniques of Asa Kujaku's calibre.

Gai wouldn't be exhausted by Morning Peacock, he was able to use Hirudora afterwards both times the technique has been shown, as well as extended fighting bothe before and after in the newest case. And here, he has Tsunade.

Tsunade trained Sakura in dodging techniques, okay. That's Sakura. Frankly, big deal. Kishimoto set that up because Sakura was fighting Sasori. Now there is extensive proof in the manga that Tsunade really can't dodge 'for shit.' Maybe because she's too slow, maybe because she knows she can heal anyway. Either way, she just doesn't evade strikes.

She's been shown capable to react fast enough to bat MADARA'S Katon jutsu right out of the air. She's not exactly helpless in the face of Tobirama's overwhelming might:

Hashirama was universally considered superior to Tobirama, and Tsunade has several similarities in fighting style to Tobi's elder brother. She can heal OTHERS, though, and is stronger, but can't use Mokuton.

Yes, I suppose the Kakashi points are all correct; Tobirama would have the hardest time getting rid of him. But in any case Chouza said that Kakashi always hid and used a lightning clone to test the enemy, so, yes, the lightning clones would almost always be destroyed, at the price of knowledge for Kakashi, admittedly a powerful weapon.

The thing is, Tsunade can serve as a chakra battery for Kakashi just as easily as she can a healing station for Gai. The Eternal Rivals with something like three times their normal endurance = Good luck, Tobirama.

I would not say that Gai's speed is massive and it certainly didn't help him against Kisame when Kisame flooded the field with water. Plus, I hate to keep bringing up the same point, but Tobirama can teleport.

No, he can't. No proof. At all. Gai's speed seemed to serve him well enough against Kisame. Kisame has unique Water Jutsu of chakra-absorbing properties, and chakra-reserves on the level of a Bijuu. If anything, Tobirama's Suiton should be SMALLER in scale than Kisame's.

Oh come on, you've gotta give me Kakashi's low stamina. Sure it's better now, but it's crap, everyone knows that. That's the thing that prevents him from being too effective in this battle, as he would if he could keep spamming kamui.

Well he CAN use it five or so times, even after extended combat, several Raikiri and variations, and at least one shadow clone.

And Tsunade gave some of her Senju-level chakra-reserves to Oonoki, with impressive results: He takes out 25 Susano'o clones in ONE ATTACK. Tsunade can grant Kakashi the ability to use Kamui pretty freely in this battle.

I would say the three of them are low Kage level, a distinction which has only come about because Tsunade and Mei are such weak Kages. Whereas the other Kages were all well into boss level in the past, now Darui could be considered 'low Kage level.' Tobirama is definitely well above them and considering his techniques possesses the upper hand in my opinion.

Low Kage-level? That's underrating them. Tobirama's techniques are Suiton, in all likelyhood of a smaller scale than Kisame's, incomplete Edo Tensei, and an unknown S/T which may very well BE Edto Tensei. It's just not enough.

However, it is true that they are a very dangerous combination. While Tobirama can s/t we don't know if that's the same dimension that Kakashi abets the destruction of Obito by using against him. Kakashi is probably smart enough to trick Tobirama, his kamui and Gai's attacks could be replenished by Tsunade if they could work it out right, and she can heal them and Kakashi does have another dimension to hide his allies in (though probably not both at once). Tobirama's massive water jutsus would be tricky but I don't think he has the water bubble, so if they avoid his clones (and subsequent prisons) they can run and water and so survive. This is all if they are able to coordinate their attacks just right to overcome Tobirama. I concede that they'd win, say 6/10-- but-- if Tobirama can summon a fully operational, as it were, Hashirama, then I would give it to the brothers without a second thought.

The as-yet-still-living team have, at least two of them, excellent teamwork, and Tsunade is pretty useful in any sort of team. Even if Tobirama can summon Hashirama, I give it to the living group 7 or 8/10. Without him, the most likely scenario in any case, it's closer to completely guaranteed that they'd win.

[Omnipotent]

Those mini-wall of texts

[Piratefish]

Those mini-wall of texts

Actually I was very proud of myself due to the wall-less nature of that last post.

[VangBro95]

Team 2.

[DrProof]

I was just wondering. Not the weakened Edo Tensei version of Tobirama, I'm talking about the real deal that sacrificed himself against the Kinkaku Force. Also, when concerning Gai and Kakashi, I'm talking about the now-Kage level ninja who are fighting Obito.

Tobirama solo's mid-high diff. Everyone should know this.

[Piratefish]

Tobirama solo's mid-high diff. Everyone should know this.

If DrProof says so it MUST be correct, no matter how much he may fanboy over the more-or-less featless target.

[hatake89]

I doubt that Tsunade is the 3rd strongest. ... At LEAST one of these people (other than Hashirama and Tobirama) had to be equal to or stronger than Tsunade to make the Senju clan great enough to rival the Uchiha. From what it seems, the Senju clan were not too great in numbers (how'd they die out so quickly?), so they must have made up for the lack of numbers with sheer power.

So are you saying that Tobirama absolutely cannot drown the three?

im pretty sure they meant of known senju

[Tazzilla88]

Tobirama solo's mid-high diff. Everyone should know this.

So do a detailed analysis regarding Tobirama, Kakashi, Gai, and Tsunade. And repeat that statement.

[DrProof]

If DrProof says so it MUST be correct, no matter how much he may fanboy over the more-or-less featless target.

Of course.

So do a detailed analysis regarding Tobirama, Kakashi, Gai, and Tsunade. And repeat that statement.

To much work. Just refer to the quote above yours.

[Tazzilla88]

Of course.



To much work. Just refer to the quote above yours.

You can't come make a claim and out of laziness refuse to defend it, well you can,but it isn't proper.
Tobirama doesn't stand a chance in this fight.
He has no speed feats to keep up with a gated Gai and for all we know his s/t techniques can work slower than Kakashi kamuing himself.
He taijutsu feats are not impressive enough to put him in the tier of Tsunade, Kakashi, or Gai.
His suitons may pose the biggest threat he has to offer but considering how Gai has handled Suitons before and Kakashi's affinity to electricity, Suitons may not be the best of options
His edos are unquantifiable and as he has no living corpses to bring forth Edo Tensei's even if he did we don't know why his ET was imperfect.
So how can you blatantly say Tobirama would defeat them? Without trying to use A>B>C logic.

[Omnipotent]

im pretty sure they meant of known senju

._. So you're saying we know everybody who's shown in that picture?

[KidGamer65]

Why make a thread on someone we have no hype or feats about?

[Omnipotent]

Why make a thread on someone we have no hype or feats about?

This question has already been answered a countless amount of times.

The same thing applies to 'Prime' Hiruzen

[KidGamer65]

This question has already been answered a countless amount of times.

The same thing applies to 'Prime' Hiruzen

I know the same thing applies to him. We won't be able to make an accurate judge of their power w/o any info.

[Omnipotent]

I know the same thing applies to him. We won't be able to make an accurate judge of their power w/o any info.

Exactly. The same reason 'Prime' Hiruzen is allowed to contaminate the threads is also why I put Tobirama in the threads; also he's underrated (he's Kage-level by default, so why are jonin being stated capable of defeating him?).

I'm a Tobirama 'boy.

[KidGamer65]

Exactly. The same reason 'Prime' Hiruzen is allowed to contaminate the threads is also why I put Tobirama in the threads; also he's underrated (he's Kage-level by default, so why are jonin being stated capable of defeating him?).

I'm a Tobirama 'boy.

I don't know why Prime Hiruzen is allowed, and Naruto is all about match-ups, not about ranks.

[kibainuzuka]

sure team 2

[Omnipotent]

I don't know why Prime Hiruzen is allowed, and Naruto is all about match-ups, not about ranks.

True

[Kratos of cruxis]

Tobirama would win

[Slug Princess Tsunade]

Tobirama would win

And how?

[Omnipotent]

And how?

He wasn't the Nidaime Hokage, the second-best of the Senju clan during its prime (and the best of the Senju clan after Hashirama's death), the strongest in the village during the First Shinobi World War (when it was full of Uchiha and presumably Senju), and a notable S/T user (as stated by the Yondaime Hokage himself; he states that Obito's S/T surpasses both his and "Nidaime-sama"'s S/T, meaning Obito > Minato >= Tobirama in terms of S/T) for nothing, you know.

[ElectricClover]

No, the ENTIRE battle suffered power scaling differences. Oro's version of Edo Tensei was still not complete to its full potential, and as such Hiruzen was able to match the Senju Bros. He had Enma, a Kage-level taijutsu fighter, a fighting style unknown to the brothers, and intimate familiarity with AT LEAST Tobirama's techniques. He also had Shiki Fuuin, and that served him well enough. If Hiruzen fought against Oro's incomplete Senju combo in part 2, he would still have won.



It was incomplete, and Orochimaru improved it. AT MOST, he should be able to summon a Hashirama on the level shown against Hiruzen, adjusted for power differences. But not adjusted as far as you seem to think. If Old Hiruzen can deal with the Edo Senju Bros, these three can deal with an Incomplete Edo and a real one.

On the other hand it's entirely possible that Tobirama's Edo Tensei simply CAN'T be used to summon high-level ninja at their full potential. Perhaps it summons hordes of genin-level opponents? We just don't know.

In any case, he has no sacrifice, no genetic material save his own, and prep time wasn't specified in the scenario. He probably can't even summon ANYONE.



Not every S/T is teleportation. We have no evidence AT ALL that Tobirama can teleport. Kamui is hard if not impossible to avoid without having Kamui yourself (even Minato wouldn't have been able to avoid it if Obito had been serious). Saying a completely undemonstrated S/T would be able to escape Kamui when FTG wouldn't have been enough had Obito been serious is just not rational.

Kuchiose is an S/T. Edo Tensei is an S/T. Not saying it's the only S/T Tobirama could use, but it's definitely a possibility. A far likelier one than that he can teleport on the level of FTG without even using superkunai.



Gai was battling BEFORE using Hirudora for quite a while. He'd already been fighting for the past few days, not least on the same day, against the Jinchuuriki, where he used Asa Kujaku. A single Hirudora has NEVER been enough to tire him out.

Tsunade is in two pieces right now, yet she's about to heal the Kages. Five of them. From lethal injuries. Of course, if she dies halfway through the first one, then that's that. I somehow doubt it, though. If she's not exhausted from fighting the likes of Madara, woozy from massive blood-loss, chakra-depleted from fighting the likes of Madara...

She'd heal Gai's Gate damage EASILY, is what I'm saying.



Oh he's not brilliant, but he doesn't need to be. He can fight someone from watching the way they shift their weight: Gai is peerless within his chosen field. His "stupidity" seems to work out pretty well for him; Kisame was VERY annoyed by his "inability" to remember his name, and annoyance makes you sloppy. You don't survive to be a ninja of Gai's level by making mistakes in battle.

Hirudora has overcome extremely powerful chakra constructs every time it's been used; Kisame, the "Tailless Bijuuu" used his single strongest technique to counter, Madara's Complete Susano'o vanished and he was unable to continue the battle for a whole issue. Whether or not he would have been killed is irrelevant: Hirudora took him out, just like Kisame. If it lands, Tobirama is beaten. Unless Tobirama posesses a defense more powerful than Madara's Susano'o and can immediately counter Kakashi and Tsunade's attacks.



Water clones are pretty much solely useful for water techniques, being so much weaker than, say, shadow clones. They'd be easily taken out by any of Tobirama's opponents in hand to hand, and en masse by techniques of Asa Kujaku's calibre.

Gai wouldn't be exhausted by Morning Peacock, he was able to use Hirudora afterwards both times the technique has been shown, as well as extended fighting bothe before and after in the newest case. And here, he has Tsunade.



She's been shown capable to react fast enough to bat MADARA'S Katon jutsu right out of the air. She's not exactly helpless in the face of Tobirama's overwhelming might:

Hashirama was universally considered superior to Tobirama, and Tsunade has several similarities in fighting style to Tobi's elder brother. She can heal OTHERS, though, and is stronger, but can't use Mokuton.



The thing is, Tsunade can serve as a chakra battery for Kakashi just as easily as she can a healing station for Gai. The Eternal Rivals with something like three times their normal endurance = Good luck, Tobirama.



No, he can't. No proof. At all. Gai's speed seemed to serve him well enough against Kisame. Kisame has unique Water Jutsu of chakra-absorbing properties, and chakra-reserves on the level of a Bijuu. If anything, Tobirama's Suiton should be SMALLER in scale than Kisame's.



Well he CAN use it five or so times, even after extended combat, several Raikiri and variations, and at least one shadow clone.

And Tsunade gave some of her Senju-level chakra-reserves to Oonoki, with impressive results: He takes out 25 Susano'o clones in ONE ATTACK. Tsunade can grant Kakashi the ability to use Kamui pretty freely in this battle.



Low Kage-level? That's underrating them. Tobirama's techniques are Suiton, in all likelyhood of a smaller scale than Kisame's, incomplete Edo Tensei, and an unknown S/T which may very well BE Edto Tensei. It's just not enough.



The as-yet-still-living team have, at least two of them, excellent teamwork, and Tsunade is pretty useful in any sort of team. Even if Tobirama can summon Hashirama, I give it to the living group 7 or 8/10. Without him, the most likely scenario in any case, it's closer to completely guaranteed that they'd win.

If you are suggesting that Hiruzen could defeat the current, edo Senju bros I would both have to adamantly disagree and question your awareness of their abilities.

Yes, Tobirama's ET is very murky territory. But I still believe that if he had even a part 1 edo Hashirama he could beat these three opponents. If you are right and ET would simply be unworkable for him in this battle, then I previously stated 6/10 imo for the trio.

Minato directly related Tobi's teleportation s/t and Tobirama's s/t. He would not do that if Tobirama's s/t was summoning. And that coupled with the fact that s/t is defined enough for us to extrapolate, it is almost sure that Tobirama could teleport, and therefore avoid kamui, which is slower based on size and distance.

Saying that Gai has never been tired out from a single hirudora is just blatantly incorrect. Every time he is literally unable to move and every touch sends him into intense pain. I don't care if he used asakujaku once, he can use hirudora after that, but not again without more chakra and healing. And the reason why I say it would be unlikely for Tsunade to replenish it, though she certainly has the ability to do so, is because I doubt Tobirama would give her a chance to.

Tobirama isn't Kisame. Kisame and Gai were both lower intelligence. Tobirama is high vs Gai's lower. He's not getting tricked. Kisame's strongest jutsu was a ninjutsu absorber and Gai used taijutsu, obviously hirudora would beat it so that means nothing. And including Kisame's strength only reinforces hirudora's weakness because it still allowed him to fight. Like I said, Tobirama getting hit by hirudora is not the end because Gai isn't smart and Tobirama has water clones, so my guess is he hits a copy.

Yes, the peacock works well on clones but he can always make a few more. And they are valuable, because they can do water prisons.

We don't know how fast the katon were going so we can't judge reaction; I was just making the point that Tsunade always tanks or deflects, never avoids, in any case.

Like I've said many times Tobirama can launch enough offense: water clones, massive water jutsus, perhaps ET, to prevent Tsunade from sitting down and healing either of her teammates enough so that they'd be useful again.

You yourself brought up the proof that Tobirama can teleport, Minato's words. Tobirama has senju level chakra and is the best suiton user. That means, yes, his suitons are on a larger scale than Kisame's.

That's jinton, my friend, the best jutsu in the manga. Now that still doesn't change that Kakashi can't spam kamuis left and right, which impairs his side.

Low Kage level is not underrating them, it's changing the title of Kage to average. As for Tobirama's techniques, he has the most massive and extensive suiton, likely operational ET, teleportation, clones, sensing, etc, etc. He is definitely on another level though not a sure win or perhaps even a close one vs these opponents.

Now saying they could beat Hashirama and Tobirama 7/10 I don't think anyone else would agree with, even if you may be right about the trio beating Tobirama (though I'd call it close).

[Omnipotent]

If you are suggesting that Hiruzen could defeat the current, edo Senju bros I would both have to adamantly disagree and question your awareness of their abilities.

Yes, Tobirama's ET is very murky territory. But I still believe that if he had even a part 1 edo Hashirama he could beat these three opponents. If you are right and ET would simply be unworkable for him in this battle, then I previously stated 6/10 imo for the trio.

Minato directly related Tobi's teleportation s/t and Tobirama's s/t. He would not do that if Tobirama's s/t was summoning. And that coupled with the fact that s/t is defined enough for us to extrapolate, it is almost sure that Tobirama could teleport, and therefore avoid kamui, which is slower based on size and distance.

Saying that Gai has never been tired out from a single hirudora is just blatantly incorrect. Every time he is literally unable to move and every touch sends him into intense pain. I don't care if he used asakujaku once, he can use hirudora after that, but not again without more chakra and healing. And the reason why I say it would be unlikely for Tsunade to replenish it, though she certainly has the ability to do so, is because I doubt Tobirama would give her a chance to.

Tobirama isn't Kisame. Kisame and Gai were both lower intelligence. Tobirama is high vs Gai's lower. He's not getting tricked. Kisame's strongest jutsu was a ninjutsu absorber and Gai used taijutsu, obviously hirudora would beat it so that means nothing. And including Kisame's strength only reinforces hirudora's weakness because it still allowed him to fight. Like I said, Tobirama getting hit by hirudora is not the end because Gai isn't smart and Tobirama has water clones, so my guess is he hits a copy.

Yes, the peacock works well on clones but he can always make a few more. And they are valuable, because they can do water prisons.

We don't know how fast the katon were going so we can't judge reaction; I was just making the point that Tsunade always tanks or deflects, never avoids, in any case.

Like I've said many times Tobirama can launch enough offense: water clones, massive water jutsus, perhaps ET, to prevent Tsunade from sitting down and healing either of her teammates enough so that they'd be useful again.

You yourself brought up the proof that Tobirama can teleport, Minato's words. Tobirama has senju level chakra and is the best suiton user. That means, yes, his suitons are on a larger scale than Kisame's.

That's jinton, my friend, the best jutsu in the manga. Now that still doesn't change that Kakashi can't spam kamuis left and right, which impairs his side.

Low Kage level is not underrating them, it's changing the title of Kage to average. As for Tobirama's techniques, he has the most massive and extensive suiton, likely operational ET, teleportation, clones, sensing, etc, etc. He is definitely on another level though not a sure win or perhaps even a close one vs these opponents.

Now saying they could beat Hashirama and Tobirama 7/10 I don't think anyone else would agree with, even if you may be right about the trio beating Tobirama (though I'd call it close).

Oh man. I totally missed this.