The genius of Kishi

[PrinceMyshkin]

I think the absolutely best part of the manga is that no one in the manga is just evil.

So far every major* villain become one because of the flaws of the world they live in. Orochimaru became evil because after seeing the horrors of a world war he came to despise the frailty of human life and fear of death made him strive to become perfect. Nagato was also the product of war which killed both his parents and his best friend which made him believe that the pain of loss was the only way to make people believe in the value of peace. Obito lost half of his own body and watched his best friend kill the girl he loved which made him realize that the way the world works is flawed (this is one of the more important ones and I'll talk more about it later). Even Madara was the product of a world which warps people's reality. Madara had fought his rival Senju clan for so long and sacrificed so much (Izuna's eyes that he took) that he could not go back to peace with the people who the circumstances of the world had made him hate for so long. Zabuza, Gaara, Sasori, etc... all of these villains had traumatic events in their lives which had distorted the way which the viewed the world. These are all broken men which are products of the world they lived in.

Personally I think up to this point Obito's "warped" view of seeing the world (which is how old Madara viewed the world too) is actually the most important, because it is sort of all encompassing. The fact is that the world is fatally flawed. I think the fact that Obito does not blame Kakashi for Rin's death is very telling of this point. To Obito, Kakashi is not to blame for Rin's death, because he is just another victim of the circumstances of our flawed world. This fits into the general trend of all the major villains of shippuden.

Therefore the moon's eye plan is a rejection of the flaws of the world in which we live. However, I believe that by having Naruto and the whole world fight against this plan Kishi is actually saying that completely rejecting the flaws of the world in which we live is not the best option either. I think that was Kishi is trying to say is that the tragedy in our lives and flaws of the world in which we live actually add something to them which is more important than having a perfect life. Think about it, what really is so bad about the moon's eye plan if it could create a perfect world? I think the answer to this question is that such a world would lack the kind of moment's which make our lives meaningful. I think that Kishi is trying to say that the flawed world we live in provide us with moments for the human spirit to overcome adversity which would be lacking in the moon's eye world.

That is to say that the genius of Kishi is that no one is just evil but rather they are just a product of the flawed world in which they are influenced by, but that living in this flawed world is also important because it allows the human spirit to overcome adversity which adds meaning to their lives which they wouldn't have in a perfect world.

[metallica9565]

thats so true, they all have reasons for what theyve become!

[★The Shogun]

I agree that it is a deep story.

[MacMiller]

What about Zetsu?

[rikerslade]

What about Zetsu?

He's only on the villain side because that's what he was created to do.

[PrinceMyshkin]

What about Zetsu?

Well dark Zetzu is Madara's essence... White Zetzu seems pretty carefree. I wouldn't really consider him major though..

[Piratefish]

OP:
Fully agree in that sympathetic, or at least understandable villains are the best kind, and one of the major strengths of the Naruto series as a whole. The overarching ideologies of the Fourth War are very interesting, and ones we'd struggle with even in the real world if a "Perfect World" was a viable option (especially if it was an all-or-nothing-choice).

This is a well made and clear illustration of the reason why I like pretty much every Naruto villain to a certain degree except Hidan, who just doesn't seem to have an explanation for his actions except being an insane sadomasochist.

[MacMiller]

He's only on the villain side because that's what he was created to do.

Kishimoto created him though.

Well dark Zetzu is Madara's essence... White Zetzu seems pretty carefree. I wouldn't really consider him major though..

Well, if it's major characters then..

[Shodaime Swagkage]

That's why I like Naruto. You've just pointed it out for me.

[PrinceMyshkin]

This is some serious sh*t.... nice stuff man... What are u on atm? i need to get myself some of the stuff ur on

I'm on a philosophy major... trust me you don't want any of that...

[JasonTheArgonaut]

I think the absolutely best part of the manga is that no one in the manga is just evil.

So far every major* villain become one because of the flaws of the world they live in. Orochimaru became evil because after seeing the horrors of a world war he came to despise the frailty of human life and fear of death made him strive to become perfect. Nagato was also the product of war which killed both his parents and his best friend which made him believe that the pain of loss was the only way to make people believe in the value of peace. Obito lost half of his own body and watched his best friend kill the girl he loved which made him realize that the way the world works is flawed (this is one of the more important ones and I'll talk more about it later). Even Madara was the product of a world which warps people's reality. Madara had fought his rival Senju clan for so long and sacrificed so much (Izuna's eyes that he took) that he could not go back to peace with the people who the circumstances of the world had made him hate for so long. Zabuza, Gaara, Sasori, etc... all of these villains had traumatic events in their lives which had distorted the way which the viewed the world. These are all broken men which are products of the world they lived in.

Personally I think up to this point Obito's "warped" view of seeing the world (which is how old Madara viewed the world too) is actually the most important, because it is sort of all encompassing. The fact is that the world is fatally flawed. I think the fact that Obito does not blame Kakashi for Rin's death is very telling of this point. To Obito, Kakashi is not to blame for Rin's death, because he is just another victim of the circumstances of our flawed world. This fits into the general trend of all the major villains of shippuden.

Therefore the moon's eye plan is a rejection of the flaws of the world in which we live. However, I believe that by having Naruto and the whole world fight against this plan Kishi is actually saying that completely rejecting the flaws of the world in which we live is not the best option either. I think that was Kishi is trying to say is that the tragedy in our lives and flaws of the world in which we live actually add something to them which is more important than having a perfect life. Think about it, what really is so bad about the moon's eye plan if it could create a perfect world? I think the answer to this question is that such a world would lack the kind of moment's which make our lives meaningful. I think that Kishi is trying to say that the flawed world we live in provide us with moments for the human spirit to overcome adversity which would be lacking in the moon's eye world.

That is to say that the genius of Kishi is that no one is just evil but rather they are just a product of the flawed world in which they are influenced by, but that living in this flawed world is also important because it allows the human spirit to overcome adversity which adds meaning to their lives which they wouldn't have in a perfect world.

your wrong with zabuza though it is true that the hidden mist academy had a one on one fight to the death to graduate
but zabuza was too young too be at the academy and he didnt kill on he killed 100 so he was just plain evil till naruto changed followed by his death

[rikerslade]

Kishimoto created him though.

Well, if it's major characters then..

What's your point?

[blazekev90]

Please don't downplay Orochimaru's evil intentions, I'll take that very personal -_-

[The Demonic Kazekage]

Great observation
Thumbs up

[PrinceMyshkin]

OP:
Fully agree in that sympathetic, or at least understandable villains are the best kind, and one of the major strengths of the Naruto series as a whole. The overarching ideologies of the Fourth War are very interesting, and ones we'd struggle with even in the real world if a "Perfect World" was a viable option (especially if it was an all-or-nothing-choice).

This is a well made and clear illustration of the reason why I like pretty much every Naruto villain to a certain degree except Hidan, who just doesn't seem to have an explanation for his actions except being an insane sadomasochist.

Well the real world non-Naruto equivalent to the moon's eye plan would be something more along the lines of the plot of the Matrix... were you aren't really living your life but are in a virtual reality simulation. The difference being in the Matrix they made that simulation flawed too, but you could easily just make the simulation perfect.

And I agree about Hidan... I was waiting the whole time for some explanation of why he was so crazy, because I mean we at least got that Kakuzu was so old he was completely detached from reality and basically not human anymore... but I guess Hidan never really died so there couldn't be a death scene flashback..

[PrinceMyshkin]

your wrong with zabuza though it is true that the hidden mist academy had a one on one fight to the death to graduate
but zabuza was too young too be at the academy and he didnt kill on he killed 100 so he was just plain evil till naruto changed followed by his death

You could say that he was a product of the Bloody Mist Village ideology at that time, but yeah I get your point. I honestly don't even remember much of that fight I might go back and reread it.

[YowYan]

True, true. In my eyes, no true evil exists. Only lack of compassion and great, but dangerous ideals. Evil for me is someone that's not aware of his connection to the rest of the universe. My sig pretty much states that. ^
Especially manga in which there is no typical 'good-guy, bad-guy' appeal to me.

[JasonTheArgonaut]

You could say that he was a product of the Bloody Mist Village ideology at that time, but yeah I get your point. I honestly don't even remember much of that fight I might go back and reread it.

he was like 10 years old when he got the nickname demon zabuza

[Narutofan4203 -in detention-]

yep, exactly
But Madara lost one battle as we've seen many characters lose battles, hes just a bitter defeat loser.

[Huang]

Agreed, the character's broad backgrounds are the main reason I follow the serie.

[Piratefish]

Well the real world non-Naruto equivalent to the moon's eye plan would be something more along the lines of the plot of the Matrix... were you aren't really living your life but are in a virtual reality simulation. The difference being in the Matrix they made that simulation flawed too, but you could easily just make the simulation perfect.

And I agree about Hidan... I was waiting the whole time for some explanation of why he was so crazy, because I mean we at least got that Kakuzu was so old he was completely detached from reality and basically not human anymore... but I guess Hidan never really died so there couldn't be a death scene flashback..

Kakuzu actually has other reasons as well. Apparently he was sent to assassinate Hashirama by the leaders of Takigakure (hidden waterfall). Didn't work out. When he returned he was reviled for even making it out alive against one of the most powerful shinobi ever to live. He had enough, stole some kinjutsu (among them Jiongu) and escaped the village.

There's also a simple explanation for why he likes money so much, too. Money lasts.

It is perhaps the only thing in Kakuzu's life which has.

[PrinceMyshkin]

True, true. In my eyes, no true evil exists. Only lack of compassion and great, but dangerous ideals.
Especially manga in which there is no typical 'good-guy, bad-guy' appeal to me.

Couldn't agree more, and it's because it's the way the world actually works. Kishi is just a master at getting you right up close and personal with the tragedy in people's lives that colors their world view. Loneliness, losing the people closest to you, betrayal he is great at portraying these things in such a vivid and realistic way that anyone could empathize with. Honestly his manga is probably better than most of the novels I've read in my life.

[PrinceMyshkin]

Kakuzu actually has other reasons as well. Apparently he was sent to assassinate Hashirama by the leaders of Takigakure (hidden waterfall). Didn't work out. When he returned he was reviled for even making it out alive against one of the most powerful shinobi ever to live. He had enough, stole some kinjutsu (among them Jiongu) and escaped the village.

There's also a simple explanation for why he likes money so much, too. Money lasts.

It is perhaps the only thing in Kakuzu's life which has.

wow I never realized about the money thing... that is great insight there I love it

[rollin]

orochimaru went evil cause his parents died

[Kellyable]

your wrong with zabuza though it is true that the hidden mist academy had a one on one fight to the death to graduate
but zabuza was too young too be at the academy and he didnt kill on he killed 100 so he was just plain evil till naruto changed followed by his death

However, Kishi revealed that beneath that tough exterior, Zabuza was not completely evil. Naruto did not change Zabuza, he brought forth the kinder side of him. A person cannot change another's personality through pretty words alone-the feelings must already reside there, regardless of how hidden these feelings are. Zabuza is revealed to have always cared for Haku when he catches the rabbit for Haku. He didn't have to-this action was purely for Haku's feelings.