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  1. #1
    In detention iSpeak the Truth's Avatar
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    The slow progression of Kakashi's Sharingan...the long road to intangibility.

    Even though Kakashi awakened his Mangekyou Sharingan at a fairly young age, courtesy of the Raikiri through Rin; he never fully learned how to activate it, as the eye manifested just before he passed out and fell to the ground; never to remember it for years to come....

    But what he did use his Sharingan for, was copying jutsu masterfully. As the copy ninja became somewhat of an icon in various villages and lands, Kakashi kept copying jutsu after jutsu, fighting battles; one after the other, until he was deemed as 'Sharingan no Kakashi' the man who had copied over a 1000 jutsu.

    So what was it that made Kakashi get reacquainted with his long forgotten power? In my theory, it was the visit paid by Uchiha Itachi to Konoha. The trauma that Itachi put Kakashi through, in just 3 seconds in the real world, but 3 whole days and nights in Tsukuyomi, reawakened Kakashi's jutsu by perhaps causing an effect similar to the copying abilities of the Sharingan. He already had the power hidden away, upon seeing Itachi's Mangekyou, maybe something got triggered again, thanks to this effect.

    And finally....Kakashi had begun his ascent to the true power of Kamui!

    Unlike the Uchiha, who are able to use this power right from the get go, Kakashi's progress was slow, but steady. As he did not have Uchiha blood coursing through his veins, Kakashi had one less thing to worry about; which was losing its light, as it is clear, that the curse of seeking new light, was only the Uchiha's to bear.

    Being immune to going blind, Kakashi still had to pay the price of this curse another way. That way would prove extremely taxing for the man who did not possess much chakra to begin with, every Kamui he cast, cost him an incredible amount of stamina.

    Due to this, Kakashi had to stick to warping small objects ex: Deidara's elbow, Nails etc...

    But this did not mean that Kakashi was not able to warp big objects, as we have seen, when the situation called for it, Kakashi paid no mind to his own depleted health and stamina, and simply; let her rip!

    Saving people's lives on more than one occasion, Deidara's blast, Pains missile. Warping bigger objects took their toll on him though, after Kakashi was forced to warp anything bigger than a kunai or a nail, he would simply, fall flat on his face; and needed to be carried thereafter.

    This has been shown in his battle against Obito. As warping kunais and rasengans was easily incorporated along with brilliant battle strategy. When Kakashi had to warp Narutos entire clone however, it was all he could give; it sapped his strength and Kakashi fell to the ground.


    I don't know if you've noticed, slowly but surely, Kakashi has been training his Kamui to the point where he can emulate Obito's Kamui, it's true power, which allows Obito to go in and out of their shared dimension and places far far away, in the blink of an eye; although it still needs more work. Whether he will also gain the intangibility that Obito possesses is yet unclear, but you can be sure, that Kakashi is not done progressing with his Mangekyou Sharingan, especially now that he has gotten a huge boost from Kurama and the Juubi has joined the fray.
     
         
    Last edited by iSpeak the Truth; 11-16-2012 at 01:40 PM.

  2. #2
    ★ X mark the SPOT ★ u wanna die's Avatar
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    Re: The slow progression of Kakashi's Sharingan...the long road to intangibility.

    gud job...
     
         

  3. #3
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    Re: The slow progression of Kakashi's Sharingan...the long road to intangibility.

    He will probably die in this battle.
     
         

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    Re: The slow progression of Kakashi's Sharingan...the long road to intangibility.

    Nice job and I hope he doesnt die
     
         

  5. #5
    Trolling level over 9000 markdabomb22's Avatar
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    Re: The slow progression of Kakashi's Sharingan...the long road to intangibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by iSpeak the Truth View Post
    Even though Kakashi awakened his Mangekyou Sharingan at a fairly young age, courtesy of the Raikiri through Rin; he never fully learned how to activate it, as the eye manifested just before he passed out and fell to the ground; never to remember it for years to come....

    But what he did use his Sharingan for, was copying jutsu masterfully. As the copy ninja became somewhat of an icon in various villages and lands, Kakashi kept copying jutsu after jutsu, fighting battles; one after the other, until he was deemed as 'Sharingan no Kakashi' the man who had copied over a 1000 jutsu.

    So what was it that made Kakashi get reacquainted with his long forgotten power? In my theory, it was the visit paid by Uchiha Itachi to Konoha. The trauma that Itachi put Kakashi through, in just 3 seconds in the real world, but 3 whole days and nights in Tsukuyomi, reawakened Kakashi's jutsu by perhaps causing an effect similar to the copying abilities of the Sharingan. He already had the power hidden away, upon seeing Itachi's Mangekyou, maybe something got triggered again, thanks to this effect.

    And finally....Kakashi had begun his ascent to the true power of Kamui!

    Unlike the Uchiha, who are able to use this power right from the get go, Kakashi's progress was slow, but steady. As he did not have Uchiha blood coursing through his veins, Kakashi had one less thing to worry about; which was losing its light, as it is clear, that the curse of seeking new light, was only the Uchiha's to bear.

    Being immune to going blind
    , Kakashi still had to pay the price of this curse another way. That way would prove extremely taxing for the man who did not possess much chakra to begin with, every Kamui he cast, cost him an incredible amount of stamina.

    Due to this, Kakashi had to stick to warping small objects ex: Deidara's elbow, Nails etc...

    But this did not mean that Kakashi was not able to warp big objects, as we have seen, when the situation called for it, Kakashi paid no mind to his own depleted health and stamina, and simply; let her rip!

    Saving people's lives on more than one occasion, Deidara's blast, Pains missile. Warping bigger objects took their toll on him though, after Kakashi was forced to warp anything bigger than a kunai or a nail, he would simply, fall flat on his face; and needed to be carried thereafter.

    This has been shown in his battle against Obito. As warping kunais and rasengans was easily incorporated along with brilliant battle strategy. When Kakashi had to warp Narutos entire clone however, it was all he could give; it sapped his strength and Kakashi fell to the ground.


    I don't know if you've noticed, slowly but surely, Kakashi has been training his Kamui to the point where he can emulate Obito's Kamui, it's true power, which allows him to go in and out of their shared dimension and places far far away, in the blink of an eye; although it still needs more work. Whether he will also gain the intangibility that Obito possesses is yet unclear, but you can be sure, that Kakashi is not done progressing with his Mangekyou Sharingan, especially now that he has gotten a huge boost from Kurama and the Juubi has joined the fray.
    I stopped reading there actually he will go blind

    Here Itachi was speaking in generalization about the side effects of the MS he never said Uchiha's only.


    Also look at the page on kamui from the databook
    It says quote "The Mangekyou sharingan is a doujutsu with continuous usage burdens the user with the loss of their eyesight. Since this is the source of Kamui using it in rapid succession put kakashi's body at risk aswell".
     
         

  6. #6
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    Re: The slow progression of Kakashi's Sharingan...the long road to intangibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by markdabomb22 View Post
    I stopped reading there actually he will go blind

    Here Itachi was speaking in generalization about the side effects of the MS he never said Uchiha's only.


    Also look at the page on kamui from the databook
    It says quote "The Mangekyou sharingan is a doujutsu with continuous usage burdens the user with the loss of their eyesight. Since this is the source of Kamui using it in rapid succession put kakashi's body at risk aswell".
    Why would Itachi include non Uchihas? It's not like transplanting Sharingans is considered a hobby; is it now?
     
         

  7. #7
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    Re: The slow progression of Kakashi's Sharingan...the long road to intangibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by iSpeak the Truth View Post
    Why would Itachi include non Uchihas? It's not like transplanting Sharingans is considered a hobby; is it now?
    Hes not necessarily intentionally including them he was just speaking in generalization and by that meaning all MS wielders regardless of heritage. Also i gave you a page from the databook and quoted it for you.
     
         

  8. #8
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    Re: The slow progression of Kakashi's Sharingan...the long road to intangibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by markdabomb22 View Post
    Hes not necessarily intentionally including them he was just speaking in generalization and by that meaning all MS wielders regardless of heritage. Also i gave you a page from the databook and quoted it for you.
    Yes, MS weilders would mean its true weilders, which were the Uchiha. Kakashi doesn't even use Kamui with its true potential, just small objects, which proves effective with his strategy, anything bigger and he can't even move! Does that happen to Uchihas?

    Danzo was able to negate these effects through Senju DNA.

    Like the book says, the strain he suffers is far greater than Uchihas, by that logic he should have gone blind ages ago.
     
         
    Last edited by iSpeak the Truth; 11-16-2012 at 02:12 PM.

  9. #9
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    Re: The slow progression of Kakashi's Sharingan...the long road to intangibility.

    Good job done, I agree... That's Kakashi's style
     
         

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    Re: The slow progression of Kakashi's Sharingan...the long road to intangibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by iSpeak the Truth View Post
    Yes, MS weilders would mean its true weilders, which were the Uchiha. Kakashi doesn't even use Kamui with its true potential, just small objects, which proves effective with his strategy, anything bigger and he can't even move! Does that happen to Uchihas?

    Danzo was able to negate these effects through Senju DNA.
    "The Mangekyou sharingan is a doujutsu with continuous usage burdens the user with the loss of their eyesight. Since this is the source of Kamui using it in rapid succession put kakashi's body at risk aswell".

    Read this......its on the databook page about kamui it even makes reference to the fact that kamui stems from the MS after it already explains the side effects of the MS which is Blindness not only that it also talks about how his body is at risk and key word here is aswell. this is implying that there is more then one factor kakashi suffers from meaning both Blindness and bodily harm.

    As for wielder that word is in its self non specific and specific. It merely specifies that the person or object in fact wields that specific thing(the MS) but not does not specify who wields(uchiha or non uchiha) or the qualifications of the wielder(uchiha or non uchiha). Ask yourself why info on the MS and its side effects is on kakashi's page on kamui if it had no relevance to him or the tech its self?
     
         

  11. #11
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    Re: The slow progression of Kakashi's Sharingan...the long road to intangibility.

    Well in the fight against Obito Kakashi's Sharingan Eye began to bleed. I think that can be a sign of overuse and potentially blindness. If his vision in that eye begins to blur in the coming chapters, then we will have our answer on weather he is effected by the Uchiha curse.
     
         

  12. #12
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    Re: The slow progression of Kakashi's Sharingan...the long road to intangibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by markdabomb22 View Post
    "The Mangekyou sharingan is a doujutsu with continuous usage burdens the user with the loss of their eyesight. Since this is the source of Kamui using it in rapid succession put kakashi's body at risk aswell".

    Read this......its on the databook page about kamui it even makes reference to the fact that kamui stems from the MS after it already explains the side effects of the MS which is Blindness not only that it also talks about how his body is at risk and key word here is aswell. this is implying that there is more then one factor kakashi suffers from meaning both Blindness and bodily harm.

    As for wielder that word is in its self non specific and specific. It merely specifies that the person or object in fact wields that specific thing(the MS) but not does not specify who wields(uchiha or non uchiha) or the qualifications of the wielder(uchiha or non uchiha). Ask yourself why info on the MS and its side effects is on kakashi's page on kamui if it had no relevance to him or the tech its self?
    The book also says his strain is much greater than Uchihas, we have seen that in his stamina, but as far as blindness goes; there is none. What do you deduce from that?
     
         

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    Re: The slow progression of Kakashi's Sharingan...the long road to intangibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by iSpeak the Truth View Post
    The book also says his strain is much greater than Uchihas, we have seen that in his stamina, but as far as blindness goes; there is none. What do you deduce from that?
    Its too soon to know about kakashi's eye condition but from the looks of it his eye has taken a toll because it was bleeding. Kakashi's ability to spam the MS this many times is major plot because regardless of chakra reserves his body and eye should be shot. However we must take into consideration the story from a writers stand point. If kakashi was to lose his eye sight or pass out from exhaustion(which he should have) the plot would be at a stand still. Regardless of past limitations kishi needs to grant kakashi immunity or a temporary hax to keep kakashi going in order to further the plot. In short Kakashi has a chakra/MS plot shield for now so that the story can progress seeing that he is a vital character in the story atm.
     
         

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    Re: The slow progression of Kakashi's Sharingan...the long road to intangibility.

    Right on but the fact is be you Uchiha or Otherwise the use of MS always has consequences...!
     
         

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    Re: The slow progression of Kakashi's Sharingan...the long road to intangibility.

    yeah agreed and now that he learned teleportation ... i feel like intangible kakashi is on his wayyyyy
     
         

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    Re: The slow progression of Kakashi's Sharingan...the long road to intangibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by markdabomb22 View Post
    Its too soon to know about kakashi's eye condition but from the looks of it his eye has taken a toll because it was bleeding. Kakashi's ability to spam the MS this many times is major plot
    I stopped reading there....no offense but I find it innapropriate to try and think from the writers perspective, that's his job, and I don't believe that I have the mental capacity for such a feat. You know...because he created Naruto! Unless I create a manga of an equally unique and incredibly deep and awesome story, I must restrain myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by kakashi of the sharingan1 View Post
    yeah agreed and now that he learned teleportation ... i feel like intangible kakashi is on his wayyyyy
    You know it's amazing that Kyuubi of all beings, knew about Kakashis ability, he even said that Kakashi could go in and out anytime he wanted.
     
         

  17. #17
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    Re: The slow progression of Kakashi's Sharingan...the long road to intangibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by iSpeak the Truth View Post
    I stopped reading there....no offense but I find it innapropriate to try and think from the writers perspective, that's his job, and I don't believe that I have the mental capacity for such a feat. You know...because he created Naruto! Unless I create a manga of an equally unique and incredibly deep and awesome story, I must restrain myself.
    Writers perspective is simply putting yourself in kishi shoes and applying simple logic which in all honesty anyone can do. Do you honestly think kishi will let kakashi pass out from exhaustion or blindness at the current part of the plot? The awnser is no or not likely because he is needed for the story to progress at this current moment. Here's another example put yourself in kishi shoes now go back to naruto chapter one do you think kishi is going to kill off naruto in that chapter? its highly unlikely due to him being necessary as the main character to further the plot so i could easily deduct that kishi will not kill naruto because it would completely halt the story/plot of naruto. Overall its just thinking rationally of what would make sense to the writer or just in general and applying it to current or upcoming events.

    People try to think from the writers perspective all of the time when people make Naruto chapter predictions. They are obviously not going to 100% correct but they may posses similar characteristics due to simply looking at where we are in the story and writing what we feel is most probable to come.
     
         

  18. #18
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    Re: The slow progression of Kakashi's Sharingan...the long road to intangibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by markdabomb22 View Post
    Writers perspective is simply putting yourself in kishi shoes and applying simple logic which in all honesty anyone can do. Do you honestly think kishi will let kakashi pass out from exhaustion or blindness at the current part of the plot? The awnser is no or not likely because he is needed for the story to progress at this current moment. Here's another example put yourself in kishi shoes now go back to naruto chapter one do you think kishi is going to kill off naruto in that chapter? its highly unlikely due to him being necessary as the main character to further the plot so i could easily deduct that kishi will not kill naruto because it would completely halt the story/plot of naruto. Overall its just thinking rationally of what would make sense to the writer or just in general and applying it to current or upcoming events.

    People try to think from the writers perspective all of the time when people make Naruto chapter predictions. They are obviously not going to 100% correct but they may posses similar characteristics due to simply looking at where we are in the story and writing what we feel is most probable to come.
    Kakashi has used Kamui about 12 times, give or take. He was beyond fatigued after warping, deidaras blast, Narutos clone, Sasukes Susanoo arrow(he was so sapped of energy this time; he couldn't even save Sakura from getting murdered by Sasuke).
    Extreme fatigue...but no trace of blindness! It's pretty clear to me, that losing the light in MS is a curse strictly applied to Uchihas.
     
         

  19. #19
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    Re: The slow progression of Kakashi's Sharingan...the long road to intangibility.

    kakashi will not obtain intangibility.. Only obito can use that. Itachi explained earlier that each eye has a specific ability. And example is Itachi's MS abilities, Amaterasu and Tsukyomi. One eye contains the Amaterasu and the other contains his Tsukyomi. When you ativate them both you get Susanoo.

    Sasuke's MS was similar. One eye activates amaterasu while the other activates his blaze release. This concept also works with Kakashi and Obito, since they have the same eye. They can both activate kumai, but kakashi is able the warp other's from far distances (ex. naruto, deidara), while obito can become intangible and only warp others if he is touching them. Their eye give them the same power but diffrent ways of using the power. So its very unlikely that kakashi will gain intangibility.
     
         

  20. #20
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    Re: The slow progression of Kakashi's Sharingan...the long road to intangibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by MickNerks View Post
    kakashi will not obtain intangibility.. Only obito can use that. Itachi explained earlier that each eye has a specific ability. And example is Itachi's MS abilities, Amaterasu and Tsukyomi. One eye contains the Amaterasu and the other contains his Tsukyomi. When you ativate them both you get Susanoo.

    Sasuke's MS was similar. One eye activates amaterasu while the other activates his blaze release. This concept also works with Kakashi and Obito, since they have the same eye. They can both activate kumai, but kakashi is able the warp other's from far distances (ex. naruto, deidara), while obito can become intangible and only warp others if he is touching them. Their eye give them the same power but diffrent ways of using the power. So its very unlikely that kakashi will gain intangibility.
    So how did Kakashi warp himself out of Kamuis dimension?
     
         

  21. #21
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    Re: The slow progression of Kakashi's Sharingan...the long road to intangibility.

    I like the narrative voice you've used here in presenting the development of Kakashi's Sharingan, but I've got a few issues:

    It's entirely possible that Itachi caused him to awaken the Mangekyou quite simply by informing him that it existed, the trauma suffered need not have been necessary for it.

    Have not thought about the loss of sight as an Uchiha curse, creds to you for that. But how does that explain Obito? Or possibly even Shisui? Are there "low grade" Mangekyou abilities which do not destroy sight?

    In the battle against Kakuzu, Kakashi stated that he was almost at the point where he would kill himself to fuel Kamui to eliminate the ancient ninja. Worth pointing out.

    Didn't think of current Kakashi's issues with big objects. Good eye.


    Now, my main problem:
    Kakashi can not and will never be able to turn intangible. He has the long-range eye, Obito has the close-range eye. Everything they've ever done with them supports this.

    Obito has only ever warped himself or things he's in contact with.

    Kakashi has only ever warped things he's looking at. Even when stuck in the Kamui realm, he has to gaze on his own hand to be able to focus the Kamui over himself. As he's a large target it explains his significant depletion afterwards.

    Even Obito has exposed this ability of Kakashi's Kamui, as when Kakashi wanted to warp the Gedou, he stepped between Kakashi's eyes and his target.

    Good thread mate.
     
         

  22. #22
    Trolling level over 9000 markdabomb22's Avatar
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    Re: The slow progression of Kakashi's Sharingan...the long road to intangibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by iSpeak the Truth View Post
    Kakashi has used Kamui about 12 times, give or take. He was beyond fatigued after warping, deidaras blast, Narutos clone, Sasukes Susanoo arrow(he was so sapped of energy this time; he couldn't even save Sakura from getting murdered by Sasuke).
    Extreme fatigue...but no trace of blindness! It's pretty clear to me, that losing the light in MS is a curse strictly applied to Uchihas.
    He has done some of those on different occasions but i have never really said anything up until now. Ask yourself if you were currently writing naruto chapters would you be focused on explaining chakra reserves over plot? Also would you make kakashi pass out or go blind right at the climax of his importance in the series just to stick to the realism? For me the answer for both is no so its plot no jutsu. Kishi has sat down and taken the time to write his thoughts on techs like kamui in the databook. Its what he has specifically stated to be true and the difference between the databook and the story itself is that plot take priority over all in one(the story) and in the other it's straight forward facts that the author wrote clear of mind outside of the story to give us his depiction, description and overall thoughts own ability's. He as the author has the ability for plots sake to bend the rules so that it adapts appropriately to the story specifically. This however is not a reason to completely dismiss what the author has stated in another occasion because people need to understand that the circumstances can be different. In short The databooks are a straight forward description from the author that is best suited for debates while the manga can and should be used to argue points however when using manga as proof you need to consider that there are factors that could effect the the subject of debate and conflict with one source because of the plot but does not make that source any less truthful.
     
         
    Last edited by markdabomb22; 11-16-2012 at 04:27 PM.

  23. #23
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    Re: The slow progression of Kakashi's Sharingan...the long road to intangibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by Piratefish View Post
    I like the narrative voice you've used here in presenting the development of Kakashi's Sharingan, but I've got a few issues:

    It's entirely possible that Itachi caused him to awaken the Mangekyou quite simply by informing him that it existed, the trauma suffered need not have been necessary for it.

    Have not thought about the loss of sight as an Uchiha curse, creds to you for that. But how does that explain Obito? Or possibly even Shisui? Are there "low grade" Mangekyou abilities which do not destroy sight?

    In the battle against Kakuzu, Kakashi stated that he was almost at the point where he would kill himself to fuel Kamui to eliminate the ancient ninja. Worth pointing out.

    Didn't think of current Kakashi's issues with big objects. Good eye.


    Now, my main problem:
    Kakashi can not and will never be able to turn intangible. He has the long-range eye, Obito has the close-range eye. Everything they've ever done with them supports this.

    Obito has only ever warped himself or things he's in contact with.

    Kakashi has only ever warped things he's looking at. Even when stuck in the Kamui realm, he has to gaze on his own hand to be able to focus the Kamui over himself. As he's a large target it explains his significant depletion afterwards.

    Even Obito has exposed this ability of Kakashi's Kamui, as when Kakashi wanted to warp the Gedou, he stepped between Kakashi's eyes and his target.

    Good thread mate.
    Half of Obitos body is Senju Hashiramas artificial but highly effective body! Mokuton is life energy and chakra itself. As for Shisui, he probably didn't even have it long enough to go blind, Danzo snatched one; Itachi was given the other.

    Thank you for understanding my thread perfectly! Plus rep. And thanks for pointing out that Kakashi looked at himself to warp out, hadn't noticed that.
     
         
    Last edited by iSpeak the Truth; 11-16-2012 at 04:35 PM.

  24. #24
    In detention iSpeak the Truth's Avatar
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    Re: The slow progression of Kakashi's Sharingan...the long road to intangibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by markdabomb22 View Post
    He has done some of those on different occasions but i have never really said anything up until now. Ask yourself if you were currently writing naruto chapters would you be focused on explaining chakra reserves over plot? Also would you make kakashi pass out or go blind right at the climax of his importance in the series just to stick to the realism? For me the answer for both is no so its plot no jutsu. Kishi has sat down and taken the time to write his thoughts on techs like kamui in the databook. Its what he has specifically stated to be true and the difference between the databook and the story itself is that plot take priority over all in one(the story) and in the other it's straight forward facts that the author wrote clear of mind outside of the story to give us his depiction, description and overall thoughts own ability's. He as the author has the ability for plots sake to bend the rules so that it adapts appropriately to the story specifically. This however is not a reason to completely dismiss what the author has stated in another occasion because people need to understand that the circumstances can be different. In short The databooks are a straight forward description from the author that is best suited for debates while the manga can and should be used to argue points however when using manga as proof you need to consider that there are factors that could effect the the subject of debate and conflict with one source because of the plot but does not make that source any less truthful.
    Sorry man.....I don't see the plot, just the story, and possibilities from within the story. Nothing will make me think from the writers perspective because in my opinion; that's just wrong! Look at my signature....sorry if I wasted your time and effort.
     
         

  25. #25
    Senior Member Itachi Edo's Avatar
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    Re: The slow progression of Kakashi's Sharingan...the long road to intangibility.

    Yeah but until 9 tails restored his chakra we saw him at his limit. Obito would have killed him if Naruto didn't step in
     
         

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