View Poll Results: Who wins?

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  • Hashirama and Madara

    7 38.89%
  • Allied Shinobi Forces with help from both jinchuriki

    7 38.89%
  • Allied Shinobi Forces with Bee's help

    0 0%
  • Allied Shinobi Forces without help from the jinchuriki

    4 22.22%
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  1. #26
    Senior Member KidGamer65's Avatar
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    Re: EMS Madara and Hashirama VS Allied Shinobi Force

    Quote Originally Posted by Piratefish View Post
    The point is not whether they can block Mini-Bijuudama (it's still a Bijuudama) but rather if they have TIME.

    Also, are you SURE even Wood Bunker/Perfect Susano'o can withstand triple-Mini-Bijuudama-rush?

    A Bijuudama is a Bijuu-level weapon, and Madara DID state that his PS was "comparable only to the Bijuu in power". If Perfect Susano'o's Sword can damage BM Naruto's Kyuubi Channeling Mode, I don't see why even a Mini-Bijuudama (or three) shouldn't be able to at least damage Perfect Susano'o.
    Madara can activate PS in a second, while Hashirama's wood sprouts out at almost and instant.
    http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/561/11
    http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/588/16

    A Mini Bijuu Dama is vastly inferior to Bijuu Dama, it has only smashed a few rocks while Bijuu Dama can bust mountains. so it isn't scratching PS, and Jukai Kotan will intercept the clones.
    http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/595/14
    Madara and Hashirama will be able to retaliate before Naruto reaches them.
     
         

  2. #27
    Argumentative Bastard Piratefish's Avatar
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    Re: EMS Madara and Hashirama VS Allied Shinobi Force

    Quote Originally Posted by KidGamer65 View Post
    Madara can activate PS in a second, while Hashirama's wood sprouts out at almost and instant.
    http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/561/11
    http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/588/16
    Madara has to form seals to use Wood Release of that scale, while Hashirama MIGHT not have to do that (wouldn't Madara be able to use Mokuton on EXACTLY the level Hashirama does, after observing him in battle so many times AND obtaining the Kekkei Genkai), he hasn't SHOWN any instant or near-instant defenses on the level of blocking three Mini-Bijuudama. Naruto is capable of making a pact with the Kyuubi, making MASSIVE amounts of clones AND Oodama Rasengan by the time it reaches him:

    All taken together it supports my impression of Mokuton pretty well:

    While it may not be FAST, it's DAMN near UNSTOPPABLE. (Wood Dragon, anyone?)

    Notice that even against a MASSIVE Jinton, Madara isn't able to INSTANTLY form Perfect Susano'o. While he DID instantly make an improved Complete Susano'o (what you just showed) it takes longer for him to stabilize the chakra into perfection itself. Which is only natural. When has he EVER needed an INSTANT Perfect Susano'o BEFORE? (Mokuton not being THAT fast?)

    It takes two more panels for the completely PERFECT version to be ready:

    And even then it might not be enough, as the power of even a Mini-Bijuudama (or three) is considerable, as I'll argue for next.

    Quote Originally Posted by KidGamer65 View Post
    A Mini Bijuu Dama is vastly inferior to Bijuu Dama, it has only smashed a few rocks while Bijuu Dama can bust mountains. so it isn't scratching PS, and Jukai Kotan will intercept the clones.
    http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/595/14
    Madara and Hashirama will be able to retaliate before Naruto reaches them.
    Actuall, that Bijuudama didn't actually HIT anything, it only fizzled out as Naruto stopped maintaining it.

    Remember how even a regular Rasengan loses a LOT of its actual FORCE as it loses cohesion (seen here as it transcends dimensions):


    Only barely destroying Obito's sleeve, and not even seeming to have damaged his arm.

    THIS, HOWEVER:

    Is what happens when a Mini-Bijuudama actually HITS something. It takes out (a clone of) BM Naruto with ease, and the BM cloak is pretty durable.

    I believe three of them at once could make a dent in whatever defense Madara and Hashirama have to offer, whether or not they actually have time to form it. If it makes even the SLIGHTEST impact, all Naruto has to do is to repeat the process, until either both his foes are dead or he can land an ACTUAL Bijuudama.
     
         

  3. #28
    Akatsuki Member USSJ Future Trunks's Avatar
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    Re: EMS Madara and Hashirama VS Allied Shinobi Force

    Hashirama and Madara take this. PS took out on whole mountain with a casual slash of its sword
    onoki destroys anything at the molecular level. and it takes time to stablise PS. they cant take it if onokis disintegrated their heads
    Onoki's particle technique was easily countered by going into complete sussano: http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/588/16.
    not once did onoki fire any dust release at it, probably because he CANT. he was already too out of chakra and so was tsunae. only known counter is, preta path

    TBBs' are too sluggish when the energy is being gathered
    609 reveals this to not be the case.

    Madara can take out all of the kages, either with a sword slash
    hes dead from a dust laser before he can do anything
    asking Hashirama to create a mokuton forest around them and setting it on Amatersu.
    scans of madara using amat? and scans of him doing that without massive chakra drain

    People forget that Madara was only playing. \
    he was deadly serious. thats why he used susano , rinnegan and meteors immediately.

    The second he got serious, they got their asses stomped to oblivion.
    after cornering and nearly sealing him twice and killing him twice
    All that shit has literally nothing to do with Perfect Susano'o. Which EMS Madar DID have, and it did blow up mountains
    no it cut them. useless if its hit with dust release cube.
    tachi can't even use his crimson phoenix flower jutsu when he's living
    living itachi we know about and his limits. ems madara we know nothing about, nothing at all. not even a little.

    No Madara did use it against Hashirama or else Madara wouldn't be saying that only Hashirama could stop me
    why isnt it possible for him to believe hashi can beat it without actually using it on him before? he didnt want to kill hashirama, only take his living tissue. stop =/= kill

    It deflected a mini bijuu dama with ease
    theres alot more powerful attacks than that
    Madara's Uchiha Gaeshi technique will just reflect an attack that has less chakra than the mini bijuu dama
    FRS is weird and has vastly different properties to other attacks. its not a ball of chakra. its a thousand little spinnign blades of wind.

    Because he fought against the strongest Uchiha and the strongest bijuu
    offscreen and we have no idea what happened. do you? if so, produce and tell me. kishi didnt show it so i have no idea what happened ergo we know nothing about it. nothing suggests power other than rumour and hype.
    Didn't Hashirama's wood dragon give Naruto and Bee a tough time?
    hashirama didnt fight. he hasnt done anything. madara did
    FRS - blocked by any form of susanoo above rib cage
    13 of them? from all directions? an attack that ALSO has cut mountains?
    TBB - Hashirama can stop Naruto by restraining him with mokuton
    Hashirama hasnt done anything much less shown speed on narutos level or anything resembling defensive skill. mokuton is nothing compared to bijuudama/FRS barrage and perfect jin control.

    rog song - Hashirama covers his ears with wood
    why would he do that? hes never heard of this genjutsu. if nagato didnt, and he knows more about jiraiya than hashirama, then what makes you think someone whos never met those sage toads in his entire life would?

    Madara is too high up in the air to be effected by the sound waves.
    how far away was pain when he heard it in the tunnels?
    Madara could have used his PS when he was yanked out by Gaara
    no. it takes time to stabilise and as it is, susano is a damaging chakra sucking tech. impossible to spam an advanced version without edo immortality

    Hashirama was a brain dead zombie who only attacked Hiruzen whenever Oro gave the command to do so.
    so oro somehow knew about darkness genjutsu? im sure hashi had some control of his actions

    et he hasn't been able to speed blitz any top tier ninjas so far
    hes been doing so constantly. CONSTANTLY. speedblitzed kisame, speedblitzed mu, speedblitzed 3rd raikage to land a point blank FRS. speedblitzed kakashi and gai when he deflected bijuudamas. speedblitzed obito in the other dimension to break his mask.

    I don't remember Naruto using 13 rasenshurikens at once
    i dont remember alive ems madara and hashirama doing anything impressive whatsoever

    Hashirama can also bust islands.
    HAHAHAHAAHAAH/. with ****ing what? trees? point me to where trees can "bust" things

    This actually is a good point but they are likely to be fooled by a wood clone. Jinton can be stopped before it can be prepped.
    and who on team 1 has seen it enough to know that? akatsuchi knew you could interrupt the prep but onokis been seen doing it on a team fight so fast 25 rinnegan using clones couldnt react and stop it. a wood clone might save hashi but how long can hashi alone stand up to the rest of the kages and division captains? dont forget gais 8th gate
    Madara has a shit load of battle experience and Hashirama was probably intelligent due to being a leader.
    so your resorting to bullshit speculation because you know youve lost?

    Hashirama alone can beat Naruto.
    hashiramas most powerful move already failed against him and that was before kurama took command and started revealing hes a strategic genius and able to spam multiple bijudamas in seconds. nothing hashi has can stand up to that plus FRS barrage and a sea of clones
    Hashirama can simply make a giant dome of Mokuton to block Naruto and his Mini Bijuu Dama
    naruto will be in bijuu mode so how is he stopping an insta-giant bijuudama as shown in 609 and 571?
    hile Madara activates Perfect Susanoo. Then Perfect Susanoo swings its blade and knocks Naruto backwards with the shockwave
    onoki from behind disintegrates susano before its stabalised or they retreat and fire long range bijuudamas till madara drops dead of exhaustion
    Hashirama ties him up with the Wood Dragon
    disintegrated by jinton, sunken by gaara, bijuudama'd to hell by the jins or smashed by kitsuchis mountain sandwhich. take your pick

    Madara can activate PS in a second, while Hashirama's wood sprouts out at almost and instan
    madaras wood does. hashiramas wood has been shown vs hiruzen to be not instant. and madara only activated non stablised PS in a sec. but naruto and onoki have been doing their big techs in seconds too.
     
         

  4. #29
    Sasuke > Your Favourite shelke's Avatar
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    Re: EMS Madara and Hashirama VS Allied Shinobi Force

    ^
    1: It took less than a second to stabilize his sussano: http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/589 - Look at Onoki's arm coming down. CS was stabilized into PS in less than a second.

    2: It complete encompassed Madara: http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/588/15 and he used CS to counter it: http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/588/16. If what you are saying is true, then why didn't the sussano portion still inside the technique turn to dust? Because, it can't. It was cancelled out by going into CS.

    3: TBB is not an instant technique. It takes a bit of time to gather energy, and larger the TBB, the more sluggish it is. You can check out Kurama doing it itself back in its fight against Mintao. He had time to not only call a summon - toad summon - but teleport them as well, and the TBB was still in Kurama's mouth. In the second instant, Minto used hand seals and actived his S/T jutsu to teleport it, and Kurama was charging all that time. A TBB that scale is too slow a technique.

    4: Gaeshi technique deflected a mini BD. This isn't scratching PS.

    5: PS sword slash is extremely fast and it leveled an entire mountain to the ground in a second or two. This alone puts Naruto and Bee at a huge disadvantage.

    6: Please check the databook, Itachi's, and Sasuke's statement. I am not going to post any links, because this should be a known fact by now: Left Ms/EMS Amatersu, and right Ms/EMS Tsukiyomi. These make up the double mangeako and that creates sussnao.
     
         

  5. #30
    Senior Member KidGamer65's Avatar
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    Re: EMS Madara and Hashirama VS Allied Shinobi Force

    Quote Originally Posted by USSJ Future Trunks View Post
    onoki destroys anything at the molecular level. and it takes time to stablise PS. they cant take it if onokis disintegrated their heads

    not once did onoki fire any dust release at it, probably because he CANT. he was already too out of chakra and so was tsunae. only known counter is, preta path


    609 reveals this to not be the case.


    hes dead from a dust laser before he can do anything

    scans of madara using amat? and scans of him doing that without massive chakra drain


    he was deadly serious. thats why he used susano , rinnegan and meteors immediately.


    after cornering and nearly sealing him twice and killing him twice

    no it cut them. useless if its hit with dust release cube.

    living itachi we know about and his limits. ems madara we know nothing about, nothing at all. not even a little.


    why isnt it possible for him to believe hashi can beat it without actually using it on him before? he didnt want to kill hashirama, only take his living tissue. stop =/= kill


    theres alot more powerful attacks than that

    FRS is weird and has vastly different properties to other attacks. its not a ball of chakra. its a thousand little spinnign blades of wind.


    offscreen and we have no idea what happened. do you? if so, produce and tell me. kishi didnt show it so i have no idea what happened ergo we know nothing about it. nothing suggests power other than rumour and hype.

    hashirama didnt fight. he hasnt done anything. madara did

    13 of them? from all directions? an attack that ALSO has cut mountains?

    Hashirama hasnt done anything much less shown speed on narutos level or anything resembling defensive skill. mokuton is nothing compared to bijuudama/FRS barrage and perfect jin control.


    why would he do that? hes never heard of this genjutsu. if nagato didnt, and he knows more about jiraiya than hashirama, then what makes you think someone whos never met those sage toads in his entire life would?


    how far away was pain when he heard it in the tunnels?

    no. it takes time to stabilise and as it is, susano is a damaging chakra sucking tech. impossible to spam an advanced version without edo immortality


    so oro somehow knew about darkness genjutsu? im sure hashi had some control of his actions


    hes been doing so constantly. CONSTANTLY. speedblitzed kisame, speedblitzed mu, speedblitzed 3rd raikage to land a point blank FRS. speedblitzed kakashi and gai when he deflected bijuudamas. speedblitzed obito in the other dimension to break his mask.



    i dont remember alive ems madara and hashirama doing anything impressive whatsoever



    HAHAHAHAAHAAH/. with ****ing what? trees? point me to where trees can "bust" things


    and who on team 1 has seen it enough to know that? akatsuchi knew you could interrupt the prep but onokis been seen doing it on a team fight so fast 25 rinnegan using clones couldnt react and stop it. a wood clone might save hashi but how long can hashi alone stand up to the rest of the kages and division captains? dont forget gais 8th gate

    so your resorting to bullshit speculation because you know youve lost?


    hashiramas most powerful move already failed against him and that was before kurama took command and started revealing hes a strategic genius and able to spam multiple bijudamas in seconds. nothing hashi has can stand up to that plus FRS barrage and a sea of clones

    naruto will be in bijuu mode so how is he stopping an insta-giant bijuudama as shown in 609 and 571?

    onoki from behind disintegrates susano before its stabalised or they retreat and fire long range bijuudamas till madara drops dead of exhaustion

    disintegrated by jinton, sunken by gaara, bijuudama'd to hell by the jins or smashed by kitsuchis mountain sandwhich. take your pick


    madaras wood does. hashiramas wood has been shown vs hiruzen to be not instant. and madara only activated non stablised PS in a sec. but naruto and onoki have been doing their big techs in seconds too.
    Its funny how you said Naruto solos, but you start to mention other characters after I replied to you.
     
         

  6. #31
    Senior Member KidGamer65's Avatar
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    Re: EMS Madara and Hashirama VS Allied Shinobi Force

    Quote Originally Posted by Piratefish View Post
    Madara has to form seals to use Wood Release of that scale, while Hashirama MIGHT not have to do that (wouldn't Madara be able to use Mokuton on EXACTLY the level Hashirama does, after observing him in battle so many times AND obtaining the Kekkei Genkai), he hasn't SHOWN any instant or near-instant defenses on the level of blocking three Mini-Bijuudama. Naruto is capable of making a pact with the Kyuubi, making MASSIVE amounts of clones AND Oodama Rasengan by the time it reaches him:

    All taken together it supports my impression of Mokuton pretty well:

    While it may not be FAST, it's DAMN near UNSTOPPABLE. (Wood Dragon, anyone?)
    All Hashirama has to do to use that is to clap their hands together. If the Clones are rushing at him, Jukai Kotan will block the ones coming for Hashirama even if it misses, Naruto won't reach him. Madara activated unstabilized PS in a second, even if he has no time to stabilize it, it can still block Mini Bijuu Dama.

    Naruto was able to destroy the Wood because he was stationary when Madara shot it, and he wasn't already using another attack, with Naruto's speed, if he is in mid attack and Hashirama uses it he won't be reaching him.

    Notice that even against a MASSIVE Jinton, Madara isn't able to INSTANTLY form Perfect Susano'o. While he DID instantly make an improved Complete Susano'o (what you just showed) it takes longer for him to stabilize the chakra into perfection itself. Which is only natural. When has he EVER needed an INSTANT Perfect Susano'o BEFORE? (Mokuton not being THAT fast?)

    It takes two more panels for the completely PERFECT version to be ready:

    And even then it might not be enough, as the power of even a Mini-Bijuudama (or three) is considerable, as I'll argue for next.
    That was Perfect Susanoo (unstabilized version) not a Complete Susanoo, and like I said that version is enough to block Mini Bijuu Dama.



    Actuall, that Bijuudama didn't actually HIT anything, it only fizzled out as Naruto stopped maintaining it.

    Remember how even a regular Rasengan loses a LOT of its actual FORCE as it loses cohesion (seen here as it transcends dimensions):


    Only barely destroying Obito's sleeve, and not even seeming to have damaged his arm.

    THIS, HOWEVER:

    Is what happens when a Mini-Bijuudama actually HITS something. It takes out (a clone of) BM Naruto with ease, and the BM cloak is pretty durable.
    The BM Cloak isn't as durable as Madara's Susanoo, and he won't even reach Hashirama to hit him with it.


    I believe three of them at once could make a dent in whatever defense Madara and Hashirama have to offer, whether or not they actually have time to form it. If it makes even the SLIGHTEST impact, all Naruto has to do is to repeat the process, until either both his foes are dead or he can land an ACTUAL Bijuudama.
    Naruto won't hit Hashirama, and PS tanks that as Chou Odama Rasengan which hollows out mountains if it explodes: http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Ultra-B...cite_note-d3-0
    was tanked by Madara's ribcage Susanoo, the weakest form. http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/560/9

    Looking at the damage Mini Bijuu Dama caused, you can easily tell that its destructive power doesn't match Chou Oodama Rasengan's power.

    They won't have the opportunity to rinse and repeat cause once Perfect Susanoo it out, Madara can just slash those clones rushing at him away, while Hashirama can use his Flower Tree World and Wood Dragon to suck out Naruto's chakra.
     
         

  7. #32
    Argumentative Bastard Piratefish's Avatar
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    Re: EMS Madara and Hashirama VS Allied Shinobi Force

    Quote Originally Posted by KidGamer65 View Post
    All Hashirama has to do to use that is to clap their hands together. If the Clones are rushing at him, Jukai Kotan will block the ones coming for Hashirama even if it misses, Naruto won't reach him. Madara activated unstabilized PS in a second, even if he has no time to stabilize it, it can still block Mini Bijuu Dama.
    True, Hashi can use the technique by just clapping his hands, but what evidence do you have that Jukai Kotan fast enough to counter BM Naruto mid-rush? Was it not countered by REGULAR clones using Oodama Rasengan, after not only holding a short conversation with the Kyuubi about the granting of chakra but using that chakra to create clones and THEN Giant Rasengan?

    Quote Originally Posted by KidGamer65 View Post
    Naruto was able to destroy the Wood because he was stationary when Madara shot it, and he wasn't already using another attack, with Naruto's speed, if he is in mid attack and Hashirama uses it he won't be reaching him.
    With Naruto's speed, if he is mid attack (at three angles!) and Hashirama uses Jukai Kotan it seems more than possible ONE of them will at least have time and opportunity to make a partial hit. Which could very well be match-ending. He DEFLECTED 5 Bijuudama. His reaction-time is EXCELLENT.

    Quote Originally Posted by KidGamer65 View Post
    That was Perfect Susanoo (unstabilized version) not a Complete Susanoo, and like I said that version is enough to block Mini Bijuu Dama.
    No evidence supports that statement. Even an unstabilized Perfect Susano'o is likely more powerful defensively than a Complete Susano'o, but a Complete Susano'o HAS been damaged by singe Tsunade-strength punches:

    Mini-Bijuudama are superior in destructive force to those, and there ARE three of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by KidGamer65 View Post
    The BM Cloak isn't as durable as Madara's Susanoo, and he won't even reach Hashirama to hit him with it.
    It's not as durable, true. It was still obliterated. By a single Mini-Bijuudama. Madara's facing three. Hashirama could very well be hit: Here's Madara being pretty much blitzed by the Raikage:

    There WERE no Shinobi of that speed-level during the lives of the Founders, which is why Madara was surprised. And Naruto is faster than the Yondaime Raikage, there's three of him, and he has Bijuudamae. (I've decided that's the correct spelling for the plural form of the word.)

    Quote Originally Posted by KidGamer65 View Post
    Naruto won't hit Hashirama, and PS tanks that as Chou Odama Rasengan which hollows out mountains if it explodes: http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Ultra-B...cite_note-d3-0
    was tanked by Madara's ribcage Susanoo, the weakest form. http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/560/9
    That's a non-senjutsu enhanced Oodama Rasengan. Vastly inferior to even a Senpo: Oodama Rasengan, not even mentioning a Mini-Bijuudama. Bijuudama are mountain-busters, and the Oodama Rasengan hasn't SHOWN any feats of that scale. I've already countered the repeated and pretty much evidence-less insistence that Hashirama won't be hit enough times, I think...

    Quote Originally Posted by KidGamer65 View Post
    Looking at the damage Mini Bijuu Dama caused, you can easily tell that its destructive power doesn't match Chou Oodama Rasengan's power.
    No. It's FAR more concentrated for one, and the damage shown by the Mini-Bijuudama is actually HIGHER than anything shown by Oodama Rasengan. Especially non-senjutsu based Oodama's. If you can reasonably prove otherwise, I WILL change my opinion. But there's no evidence for this.

    Quote Originally Posted by KidGamer65 View Post
    They won't have the opportunity to rinse and repeat cause once Perfect Susanoo it out, Madara can just slash those clones rushing at him away, while Hashirama can use his Flower Tree World and Wood Dragon to suck out Naruto's chakra.
    Perfect Susano'o is not in any way proven faster than BM clones. Wood Dragon is an effective counter to BM Naruto in most ways, but he can form clones even while locked in battle with it. Rinse and repeat is a valid option, if it proves necessary.
     
         

  8. #33
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    Re: EMS Madara and Hashirama VS Allied Shinobi Force

    No one is as more as overrated than Madara and Hashirama right now. If you think that they can beat the joint army, you're either a fool or someone who doesn't read the manga well
     
         

  9. #34
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    Re: EMS Madara and Hashirama VS Allied Shinobi Force

    Quote Originally Posted by Piratefish View Post
    True, Hashi can use the technique by just clapping his hands, but what evidence do you have that Jukai Kotan fast enough to counter BM Naruto mid-rush? Was it not countered by REGULAR clones using Oodama Rasengan, after not only holding a short conversation with the Kyuubi about the granting of chakra but using that chakra to create clones and THEN Giant Rasengan?
    There is a big difference between the two scenarios.

    Naruto was stationary at the beginning and wasn't using any jutsu, then he rushed at the wood and hit with his attack.

    If Naruto is running at Hashirama first like you say, Hashirama uses this and then Naruto either gets hit or jumps back to avoid it, and breaks it later, Mini Bijuu Dama isn't getting through that so colliding with it is not an option.


    With Naruto's speed, if he is mid attack (at three angles!) and Hashirama uses Jukai Kotan it seems more than possible ONE of them will at least have time and opportunity to make a partial hit. Which could very well be match-ending. He DEFLECTED 5 Bijuudama. His reaction-time is EXCELLENT.
    Hashirama has Mokuton clones so he can block Naruto from all 3 angles.

    No evidence supports that statement. Even an unstabilized Perfect Susano'o is likely more powerful defensively than a Complete Susano'o, but a Complete Susano'o HAS been damaged by singe Tsunade-strength punches:

    Mini-Bijuudama are superior in destructive force to those, and there ARE three of them.
    Mini Bijuu Dama is nowhere near a mountain buster, the damage it caused wasn't even that impressive, even 3 of those won't break Susanoo.

    I
    t's not as durable, true. It was still obliterated. By a single Mini-Bijuudama. Madara's facing three. Hashirama could very well be hit: Here's Madara being pretty much blitzed by the Raikage:

    There WERE no Shinobi of that speed-level during the lives of the Founders, which is why Madara was surprised. And Naruto is faster than the Yondaime Raikage, there's three of him, and he has Bijuudamae. (I've decided that's the correct spelling for the plural form of the word.)
    And Madara still block A's punch, he can very well summon Susanoo with a thought before Naruto gets him, if he can block A.





    That's a non-senjutsu enhanced Oodama Rasengan. Vastly inferior to even a Senpo: Oodama Rasengan, not even mentioning a Mini-Bijuudama. Bijuudama are mountain-busters, and the Oodama Rasengan hasn't SHOWN any feats of that scale. I've already countered the repeated and pretty much evidence-less insistence that Hashirama won't be hit enough times, I think...
    Exactly, Bijuu Dama are mountain busters not Mini Bijuu Dama, and Chou Oodama Rasengan hollows out a mountain, different from a mountain buster. Unless you have some feats for Mini Bijuu Dama that show it is far stronger than Chou Oodama Rasengan, there is no reason to believe it can even harm Susanoo, when ribcage tanked a Chou Oodama Rasengan



    No. It's FAR more concentrated for one, and the damage shown by the Mini-Bijuudama is actually HIGHER than anything shown by Oodama Rasengan. Especially non-senjutsu based Oodama's. If you can reasonably prove otherwise, I WILL change my opinion. But there's no evidence for this.
    There is no evidence to believe it is stronger when all we saw Mini Bijuu Dama was break some rocks and cause a mediocre sized explosion.

    Even if it is stronger than Chou Oodama Rasengan, after factoring in the difference of power between Ribcage and PS, you can safely assume that Mini Bijuu Dama isn't going to cut it, the only thing Naruto has that can break PS is the full sized Bijuu Dama.



    Perfect Susano'o is not in any way proven faster than BM clones. Wood Dragon is an effective counter to BM Naruto in most ways, but he can form clones even while locked in battle with it. Rinse and repeat is a valid option, if it proves necessary.
    Naruto's BM Clones, mid attack aren't dodging this: http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/589/2
    http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/589/3
    and even if they do the shockwave will destroy them.
     
         

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    Re: EMS Madara and Hashirama VS Allied Shinobi Force

    EMS Madara...Amatersu shield, and PS.

    Hashirama could be a support with his healing and instant forest creation.

    EDIT: _O- when did this become Naruto > Ems Madara & Hashirama :lmao:
     
         
    Last edited by Ultimate uzumaki form; 11-22-2012 at 11:53 PM.

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    Re: EMS Madara and Hashirama VS Allied Shinobi Force

    with the of the jinchuricki
     
         

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    Re: EMS Madara and Hashirama VS Allied Shinobi Force

    Quote Originally Posted by USSJ Future Trunks View Post
    onoki destroys anything at the molecular level. and it takes time to stablise PS. they cant take it if onokis disintegrated their heads

    not once did onoki fire any dust release at it, probably because he CANT. he was already too out of chakra and so was tsunae. only known counter is, preta path


    609 reveals this to not be the case.


    hes dead from a dust laser before he can do anything

    scans of madara using amat? and scans of him doing that without massive chakra drain


    he was deadly serious. thats why he used susano , rinnegan and meteors immediately.


    after cornering and nearly sealing him twice and killing him twice

    no it cut them. useless if its hit with dust release cube.

    living itachi we know about and his limits. ems madara we know nothing about, nothing at all. not even a little.


    why isnt it possible for him to believe hashi can beat it without actually using it on him before? he didnt want to kill hashirama, only take his living tissue. stop =/= kill


    theres alot more powerful attacks than that

    FRS is weird and has vastly different properties to other attacks. its not a ball of chakra. its a thousand little spinnign blades of wind.


    offscreen and we have no idea what happened. do you? if so, produce and tell me. kishi didnt show it so i have no idea what happened ergo we know nothing about it. nothing suggests power other than rumour and hype.

    hashirama didnt fight. he hasnt done anything. madara did

    13 of them? from all directions? an attack that ALSO has cut mountains?

    Hashirama hasnt done anything much less shown speed on narutos level or anything resembling defensive skill. mokuton is nothing compared to bijuudama/FRS barrage and perfect jin control.


    why would he do that? hes never heard of this genjutsu. if nagato didnt, and he knows more about jiraiya than hashirama, then what makes you think someone whos never met those sage toads in his entire life would?


    how far away was pain when he heard it in the tunnels?

    no. it takes time to stabilise and as it is, susano is a damaging chakra sucking tech. impossible to spam an advanced version without edo immortality


    so oro somehow knew about darkness genjutsu? im sure hashi had some control of his actions


    hes been doing so constantly. CONSTANTLY. speedblitzed kisame, speedblitzed mu, speedblitzed 3rd raikage to land a point blank FRS. speedblitzed kakashi and gai when he deflected bijuudamas. speedblitzed obito in the other dimension to break his mask.



    i dont remember alive ems madara and hashirama doing anything impressive whatsoever



    HAHAHAHAAHAAH/. with ****ing what? trees? point me to where trees can "bust" things


    and who on team 1 has seen it enough to know that? akatsuchi knew you could interrupt the prep but onokis been seen doing it on a team fight so fast 25 rinnegan using clones couldnt react and stop it. a wood clone might save hashi but how long can hashi alone stand up to the rest of the kages and division captains? dont forget gais 8th gate

    so your resorting to bullshit speculation because you know youve lost?


    hashiramas most powerful move already failed against him and that was before kurama took command and started revealing hes a strategic genius and able to spam multiple bijudamas in seconds. nothing hashi has can stand up to that plus FRS barrage and a sea of clones

    naruto will be in bijuu mode so how is he stopping an insta-giant bijuudama as shown in 609 and 571?

    onoki from behind disintegrates susano before its stabalised or they retreat and fire long range bijuudamas till madara drops dead of exhaustion

    disintegrated by jinton, sunken by gaara, bijuudama'd to hell by the jins or smashed by kitsuchis mountain sandwhich. take your pick


    madaras wood does. hashiramas wood has been shown vs hiruzen to be not instant. and madara only activated non stablised PS in a sec. but naruto and onoki have been doing their big techs in seconds too.
    Oh really? In that case since you think you "know Itachi's limits" and that he can, post 1 panel of Itachi using crimson phoenix flower while living. Otherwise you're full of shit and Itachi can only use it when Edo, because we can't make assumptions and he's never shown using it when living and there's nothing in the manga that supports him being able to ever.

    I'm glad you agree with me then, considering if you don't agree to that term then you're a massive hypocrite who probably won't even respond in the first place because you tend to do that whenever you're wrong.
     
         

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    Re: EMS Madara and Hashirama VS Allied Shinobi Force

    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimate uzumaki form View Post
    EMS Madara...Amatersu shield, and PS.

    Hashirama could be a support with his healing and instant forest creation.

    EDIT: _O- when did this become Naruto > Ems Madara & Hashirama :lmao:
    What can ps do to Naruto if he can tank a jubi laser? I made a thread on Naruto > Hashi as well, but he's got around all of the mokuton techniques used so far, neither Hashi or Madara are tanking a continuous biju dama.
     
         

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    Re: EMS Madara and Hashirama VS Allied Shinobi Force

    No evidence supports that statement. Even an unstabilized Perfect Susano'o is likely more powerful defensively than a Complete Susano'o, but a Complete Susano'o HAS been damaged by singe Tsunade-strength punches:

    Mini-Bijuudama are superior in destructive force to those, and there ARE three of them.
    This isn't a complete sussano at all. This is what Madara's complete sussano looks like: http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/588/16. And it's a clone on top of that.
     
         

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    Re: EMS Madara and Hashirama VS Allied Shinobi Force

    What can ps do to Naruto if he can tank a jubi laser? I made a thread on Naruto > Hashi as well, but he's got around all of the mokuton techniques used so far, neither Hashi or Madara are tanking a continuous biju dama.
    Sorry to burst your bubble, but that Juubi lacks the eight and nine tails, and the latter is the most powerful beast out of all the nine tailed beasts. So it tanking that beam is still hilarious because of its lack of the said beasts.
     
         

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    Re: EMS Madara and Hashirama VS Allied Shinobi Force

    Quote Originally Posted by shelke View Post
    Sorry to burst your bubble, but that Juubi lacks the eight and nine tails, and the latter is the most powerful beast out of all the nine tailed beasts. So it tanking that beam is still hilarious because of its lack of the said beasts.
    Considering Juubis strenght, even if its incomplete ( http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/610/7 ) its not hilarious at all. Actually, thats hell of a feat.
     
         

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    Re: EMS Madara and Hashirama VS Allied Shinobi Force

    ^ A jubbi is just nine tailed beasts rolled into one. And it's lacking two top most powerful tailed beasts. I am sorry, what is your point?
     
         

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    Re: EMS Madara and Hashirama VS Allied Shinobi Force

    Quote Originally Posted by shelke View Post
    This isn't a complete sussano at all. This is what Madara's complete sussano looks like: http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/588/16. And it's a clone on top of that.
    That's an unstabilized Perfect Susano'o (which might actually be what a complete Susano'o IS, now I think about it). When is it stated that clone's Susano'o's are inferior, and by how much?

    I notice you're not mentioning the relative levels of power of Tsunade's punches and Mini-Bijuudama?

    Quote Originally Posted by shelke View Post
    ^ A jubbi is just nine tailed beasts rolled into one. And it's lacking two top most powerful tailed beasts. I am sorry, what is your point?
    The Juubi is demonstrably superior to the Hachibi and Kyuubi WORKING TOGETHER. Why would you believe Perfect Susano'o would be superior to it in destroying the Kyuubi Cloak?
     
         

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    Re: EMS Madara and Hashirama VS Allied Shinobi Force

    Quote Originally Posted by shelke View Post
    ^ A jubbi is just nine tailed beasts rolled into one. And it's lacking two top most powerful tailed beasts. I am sorry, what is your point?
    That tanking that beam was hell of a feat.
    Quote Originally Posted by shelke View Post
    ^ A jubbi is just nine tailed beasts rolled into one.
    And your own words are the reason why it was hell of a feat.
     
         

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    Re: EMS Madara and Hashirama VS Allied Shinobi Force

    ^ I still don't care, as THIS is what Madara's CS looks like: http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/589. Do you see any similarity? Clones are formed by evenly distributing chakra, hence no clone can be as powerful as the user itself. Go back to the chakra distribution chapters for the full explanations.
     
         

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    Re: EMS Madara and Hashirama VS Allied Shinobi Force

    And your own words are the reason why it was hell of a feat.
    The current Juubi lacks Hachibi/eight and Kurama/nine tails? I still don't get your point when the latter is the most powerful tailed beast if we are to take Juubi out of the equation?
     
         

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    Re: EMS Madara and Hashirama VS Allied Shinobi Force

    Quote Originally Posted by shelke View Post
    The current Juubi lacks Hachibi/eight and Kurama/nine tails? I still don't get your point when the latter is the most powerful tailed beast if we are to take Juubi out of the equation?
    I was just responding to your words, which said that Naruto taking that beam was hilarious. Well... nope, it wasnt. That inclomplete Juubi is most probably the second most powerful creature in history, inferior only to the original, complete Juubi.
     
         

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    Re: EMS Madara and Hashirama VS Allied Shinobi Force

    Quote Originally Posted by KidGamer65 View Post
    There is a big difference between the two scenarios.

    Naruto was stationary at the beginning and wasn't using any jutsu, then he rushed at the wood and hit with his attack.

    If Naruto is running at Hashirama first like you say, Hashirama uses this and then Naruto either gets hit or jumps back to avoid it, and breaks it later, Mini Bijuu Dama isn't getting through that so colliding with it is not an option.
    Naruto is running at Hashirama, so Hashi DOES NOT HAVE TIME FOR ANYTHING NOT CONNECTED TO HIS IMMEDIATE SURVIVAL. And that's not at all secure. Attacks are NOT what he'd be focusing on.

    Quote Originally Posted by KidGamer65 View Post
    Hashirama has Mokuton clones so he can block Naruto from all 3 angles.
    No time for making clones.

    Quote Originally Posted by KidGamer65 View Post
    Mini Bijuu Dama is nowhere near a mountain buster, the damage it caused wasn't even that impressive, even 3 of those won't break Susanoo.
    It's hard to say exactly how much damage it caused, and it certainly destroyed everything it hit. It's concentrated. It wouldn't HAVE to break Susano'o, only damage it so that LATER MBD waves can break it or allow a big BD through.

    Quote Originally Posted by KidGamer65 View Post
    I
    And Madara still block A's punch, he can very well summon Susanoo with a thought before Naruto gets him, if he can block A.
    He only barely managed to block, which would have been pretty useless against a Mini-BD. I never said he couldn't summon Susano'o, but rather that INSTANT PS was beyond him. And I was using this as an example as to why HASHIRAMA would be pretty screwed. He can't summon an instant defense around his body (it's gound-based and has to grow around him and is NOT as fast as Susano'o) and he wouldn't be as capable of tracking high-speed linear movement as Madara, let alone from three directions at once.

    Quote Originally Posted by KidGamer65 View Post
    Exactly, Bijuu Dama are mountain busters not Mini Bijuu Dama, and Chou Oodama Rasengan hollows out a mountain, different from a mountain buster. Unless you have some feats for Mini Bijuu Dama that show it is far stronger than Chou Oodama Rasengan, there is no reason to believe it can even harm Susanoo, when ribcage tanked a Chou Oodama Rasengan
    Bijuudama OBLITERATE mountains, Mini-Bijuudama DAMAGE mountains. Like their effects on even a Perfect Susano'o, I'd imagine.

    Quote Originally Posted by KidGamer65 View Post
    There is no evidence to believe it is stronger when all we saw Mini Bijuu Dama was break some rocks and cause a mediocre sized explosion.
    And take out a BM clone. KM clones fight on par with strong Kages. Don't underestimate it.

    Explosion size has little to do with explosion potency, at least in Naruto.

    Quote Originally Posted by KidGamer65 View Post
    Even if it is stronger than Chou Oodama Rasengan, after factoring in the difference of power between Ribcage and PS, you can safely assume that Mini Bijuu Dama isn't going to cut it, the only thing Naruto has that can break PS is the full sized Bijuu Dama.
    I'll "safetly assume" that while a Mini-Bijuudama won't DESTROY even an unstable PS, they WILL do damage. And nothing stops him from sending more and more and MORE waves of mini-BDs while the real version is charging a big one to OBLITERATE Madara's PS.

    Quote Originally Posted by KidGamer65 View Post
    Naruto's BM Clones, mid attack aren't dodging this: http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/589/2
    http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/589/3
    and even if they do the shockwave will destroy them.
    Madara can't make a stable Perfect Susano'o and have it attack IN TIME TO INTERRUPT BM NARUTO, what the HELL?

    He only MIGHT be able to hit them if they're ready for a dodge. And the PS is so ridiculously obvious in its every motion. And there's three of them. ONE will survive, at least.
     
         

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    Re: EMS Madara and Hashirama VS Allied Shinobi Force

    Quote Originally Posted by shelke View Post
    ^ I still don't care, as THIS is what Madara's CS looks like: http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/589. Do you see any similarity? Clones are formed by evenly distributing chakra, hence no clone can be as powerful as the user itself. Go back to the chakra distribution chapters for the full explanations.
    Oh, you don't care? Well THAT means you must win EVERY debate.

    If a clone has enough chakra to use a technique, that technique is as powerful as if the original used it. Go back to Naruto's clones fighting multiple Kages for proof of that.

    Quote Originally Posted by shelke View Post
    The current Juubi lacks Hachibi/eight and Kurama/nine tails? I still don't get your point when the latter is the most powerful tailed beast if we are to take Juubi out of the equation?
    Is it not dominating the Hachibi AND the Kyuubi?
     
         

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    Re: EMS Madara and Hashirama VS Allied Shinobi Force

    Quote Originally Posted by Piratefish View Post
    Naruto is running at Hashirama, so Hashi DOES NOT HAVE TIME FOR ANYTHING NOT CONNECTED TO HIS IMMEDIATE SURVIVAL. And that's not at all secure. Attacks are NOT what he'd be focusing on.
    IF he attacks him Naruto has to dodge or he will get hit, meaning Naruto doesn't hit him.


    No time for making clones.
    , yes there is.


    It's hard to say exactly how much damage it caused, and it certainly destroyed everything it hit. It's concentrated. It wouldn't HAVE to break Susano'o, only damage it so that LATER MBD waves can break it or allow a big BD through.
    Mini Bijuu Dama will barely scratch PS.


    He only barely managed to block, which would have been pretty useless against a Mini-BD. I never said he couldn't summon Susano'o, but rather that INSTANT PS was beyond him. And I was using this as an example as to why HASHIRAMA would be pretty screwed. He can't summon an instant defense around his body (it's gound-based and has to grow around him and is NOT as fast as Susano'o) and he wouldn't be as capable of tracking high-speed linear movement as Madara, let alone from three directions at once.
    Instant unstabilized PS is not beyond him and I showed proof of that.

    Hashirama has Mokuton+Mokuton clones...he doesn't need to defend when he can shoot an attack at the incoming Naruto.



    Bijuudama OBLITERATE mountains, Mini-Bijuudama DAMAGE mountains. Like their effects on even a Perfect Susano'o, I'd imagine.
    Mini Bijuu Dama doesn't have the feats to break or even damage a PS.

    And take out a BM clone. KM clones fight on par with strong Kages. Don't underestimate it.
    So what? Just because they fight with Kages, it doesn't mean that they can tank mountain slicing attacks, unless you have some durability feats for them that say otherwise.

    Explosion size has little to do with explosion potency, at least in Naruto.
    Ok..


    I'll "safetly assume" that while a Mini-Bijuudama won't DESTROY even an unstable PS, they WILL do damage. And nothing stops him from sending more and more and MORE waves of mini-BDs while the real version is charging a big one to OBLITERATE Madara's PS
    .
    Nothing stops Madara from slicing Naruto clones up since those Mini Bijuu Dama won't even faze Perfect Susanoo.



    Madara can't make a stable Perfect Susano'o and have it attack IN TIME TO INTERRUPT BM NARUTO, what the HELL?

    He only MIGHT be able to hit them if they're ready for a dodge. And the PS is so ridiculously obvious in its every motion. And there's three of them. ONE will survive, at least.
    After the first wave of attacks is blocked by unstabilized PS, stabilized PS comes out and slices them up, stop overrating Naruto mini BD cause it won't do shit to PS.

    And no they won't survive, unless they can dodge this: http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/589/3 WHILE they are already running towards Madara, which they can't..
     
         

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