Who was the best water release (suiton) user?

[T Bogard]

same exact jutsu Tobirama used, same exact way

True, but that's Darui, not Kisame. Anyway concerning Tobirama, i'm only going by hype. It's only Mei that i say is better in feats

[Omnipotent]

Tobirama was the second-best of the Senju clan in its' prime based on suiton mastery alone. Isn't that a feat?

[Owarij]

True, but that's Darui, not Kisame. Anyway concerning Tobirama, i'm only going by hype. It's only Mei that i say is better in feats

Kisame's exploding water wave is a prime example of using a jutsu with no water source....a jutsu on a much larger scale than a simple wall

[Blaze Release]

True, but that's Darui, not Kisame. Anyway concerning Tobirama, i'm only going by hype. It's only Mei that i say is better in feats

Not to get you hyped and try to cling to blasphemous claims but kakashi has also demonstrated this technique.



Dont go crazy and say kakashi is the best though because i put him in the same category as zabuza, itachi, darui. Basically the second category. His main element is raiton

[T Bogard]

Kisame's exploding water wave is a prime example of using a jutsu with no water source....a jutsu on a much larger scale than a simple wall

Sure, but that is not a suiton attack, it's just a jutsu to create water to put him at his advantage, exactly like Gaara do with his sand, and he can only create such a huge amount of water because of his chakra pool. It has nothing to do with skills. But if Kisame fight another suiton user for example(lets say a suiton user who can't even perform suiton without water source), even that jutsu won't be really helpfull.

In the contrary, the suiton user who usually can't perform suiton without water source will say thanks to kisame for creating that water source for him. That's why i want to see Kisame be able to create suiton attacks without water source to accept him as the best suiton user, what he has not shown to be able to do unfortunately

Dont go crazy and say kakashi is the best though because i put him in the same category as zabuza, itachi, darui. Basically the second category. His main element is raiton

I already knew he was capable to do that, but that has nothing to do with our current debate. But since we talk about it, i personally believe Zabuza is above Kakashi, Darui, who are above Itachi in suiton skills

[Owarij]

Sure, but that is not a suiton attack, it's just a jutsu to create water to put him at his advantage, exactly like Gaara do with his sand, and he can only create such a huge amount of water because of his chakra pool. It has nothing to do with skills. But if Kisame fight another suiton user for example(lets say a suiton user who can't even perform suiton without water source), even that jutsu won't be really helpfull.

In the contrary, the suiton user who usually can't perform suiton without water source will say thanks to kisame for creating that water source for him. That's why i want to see Kisame be able to create suiton attacks without water source to accept him as the best suiton user, what he has not shown to be able to do unfortunately

The exploding wave is A jutsu, meaning it's a suiton ability.. idk where you're coming from with this, But the argument we were having is can Kisame use a suiton ability with no existing water source? yes he did, On a MUCH larger scale than tobirama/darui etc have ever done

[kisamerox9]

Kisame is obviously a better suiton user than anyone else in the manga. He can create water jutsu without a water source. He has the best water jutsu shown in the manga. He has crazy amounts of chakra. Its crazy that most of you think tobirama is better suiton user than kisame.

Tobirama is all hype and has almost no proof to back up anything. Sure he was blood to Harashima but one was a wood user and the other was a sensor/st user.

All we can go off of is what we have seen and Kisane has shown to be the best suiton user in Naruto

[regii sanguinis]

Kisame is obviously a better suiton user than anyone else in the manga. He can create water jutsu without a water source.

if i may disagree my good sir.. Kisame has never created water in a place without water source.. what he did is he created water from his chakra are releasing it in his mouth.. almost every suiton user does this.. Tobirama on the other hand created water in a place without any existing body of water by using water molecules in the air.. we are yet to see a shinobi capable of doing what Tobirama did.. ^_^

[Superior]

So what you were saying is ... they were even more powerful than they were in their prime? And if they were scaled differently, then how can we even compare them? The only thing we have to go by is after Tobirama used but one B- rank suiton jutsu to counter the Sandaime Hokage's katon jutsu, the ANBU was left in awe and already placed him at Kage-level.

And once again, if Kabuto can improve on the Edo Tensei, then Orochimaru's version is not perfected.

Kabuto stated that Orochimaru perfected Edo Tensei. Kabuto also states that he gave his edos a conscious mind because only the Edo himself knows how to use his techniques to their full potential.
Not only are the power levels in Part I and Part II worlds apart; but Orochimaru did not give the Senju brothers control of their own bodies. He controlled them, and so their fighting skill was not what it could have been. Perhaps Orochimaru left them as mindless zombies because Tobirama invented Edo Tensei, and might have known to break the jutsu's control. Hashirama being his brother, might have also known how to break the jutsu.
I already made a post on this thread giving my opinion on the actual topic so I don't think I need to repeat myself on that.

[kisamerox9]

if i may disagree my good sir.. Kisame has never created water in a place without water source.. what he did is he created water from his chakra are releasing it in his mouth.. almost every suiton user does this.. Tobirama on the other hand created water in a place without any existing body of water by using water molecules in the air.. we are yet to see a shinobi capable of doing what Tobirama did.. ^_^

Him using the molecules in the air gets the same job done as creating to from the mouth. Kisame, Mei, Kakashi, and Tobirama have all used suiton jutsus without water. This is not a valid reason why Tobieama is better suiton user. Kisame created a jutsu that absorbs chakra.
Can Tobirama do that?
Nope.
creating to from water molecules or from chakra inside the body gets the job fone either way. Tobirama has not been said to have created different suiton jutsus, whereas Kisame has created 1000 hungry sharks, Great Shark Missile, Water Dome, Ect.

For someone to become a great suiton user not only do they have to show stong suiton feats, they also have to show enough skill and mastery of suiton to create original jutsus
Kisame show all of these characteristics

[regii sanguinis]

Him using the molecules in the air gets the same job done as creating to from the mouth. Kisame, Mei, Kakashi, and Tobirama have all used suiton jutsus without water. This is not a valid reason why Tobieama is better suiton user. Kisame created a jutsu that absorbs chakra.
Can Tobirama do that?
Nope.
creating to from water molecules or from chakra inside the body gets the job fone either way. Tobirama has not been said to have created different suiton jutsus, whereas Kisame has created 1000 hungry sharks, Great Shark Missile, Water Dome, Ect.

For someone to become a great suiton user not only do they have to show stong suiton feats, they also have to show enough skill and mastery of suiton to create original jutsus
Kisame show all of these characteristics

well as they said, does the end, justify the means.. getting the work done is irrelevant in discussing one level of skill.. as you said, most suiton users expel water from their mouths (Tobirama, Kisame, Mei, Darui, etc.) so deffinitely, that means is the routinary way of using water based jutsus.. with that, Tobirama is clearly the most skilled in water based jutsus as he is the only one shown of utilizing suiton techniques in such means.. in response to your query, what is the reason why Kisame is better than Tobirama, when it is clear that Kisame can't perform jutsus done by Tobirama..

Kisame may have displayed that wider array of suiton techniques, but does not necessarily makes him the best.. Tobirama's feats are limited as we all know, yet on that very limited showings, he has shown mastery of water techniques better than anyone in the series..

as you have said, for someone to become a great suiton user not only do they have to show strong suiton feats, they also have to show enough skill and mastery of suiton to create original jutsus.. Tobirama has exactly showed that by creating water justus in a manner that none since him has displayed.. Kisame has given the chance to show many of his jutsus while Tobirama has not.. judging from what they have shown perform in their most basic, i cannot see how can a more advanced water user be considered weaker.. and as you have said, its not all about power, its about skill and mastery of the art..

[Zlad]

Readed all the comments and now I am pretty unsure. What I know is that Kisame would have won if they fought in the water, but we have to see more from Tobirama before judge

[NarutoKage2]

This is quite a hard one. By hype and character statements(like the anbu) etc it seems that Tobirama was the best suiton user. But then again looking purely at feats Kisame was a beast making that giant lake against Bee and when he first fought Guy. I go by feats as opposed to hype so id say Kisame .

[James Harrsion]

Why is this even a debate, Tobirama was stated to create water out of thin air that > any other water users.

[Owarij]

^ Never happened in manga, that was a anime filler feat

[badoera]

Tobirame takes this easily .. Performing high level suiton jutsu without handseals or water nearby .. nobody can match that.


second place ain't even Kisame in my books .. It would most likely be second mizukage cuz he's being called the ''battle tyrant'' / killed Muu (who possessed a kekai Touta) and he's from the Hoozuki clan (like suigetsu) so he has all those abilities .. he's second

3th place = Kisame.

[Retsu]

Tobirama could use that water dragon move with a single hand sign, and normaly it requires like 44, He is without a doubt the best water user. Manga stated it, he just has no screen time.

[Q of the Sharingan]

Kisame by feats.

Tobirama by hype



Did you forget when kisame flooded a desert against Gai and his team?

Kisame had to summon the water (from his mouth). He didn't make the water appear out of nowhere. There is a difference.

[regii sanguinis]

Tobirama could use that water dragon move with a single hand sign, and normaly it requires like 44, He is without a doubt the best water user. Manga stated it, he just has no screen time.

true enough.. but to be fair, Mei also created one with just one hand sign.. though i can't remember Kisame doing the same.. correct me if i'm wrong though..

[Retsu]

true enough.. but to be fair, Mei also created one with just one hand sign.. though i can't remember Kisame doing the same.. correct me if i'm wrong though..

tbh we don't really know how many signs she used, but the water dragon jutsu is the jutsu that requires the most hand signs, which is like 44, and tobirama lowered this down to one. Kisame doesn't have good water mastery, he just has a lot of chakra to dump behind his attacks. Mei is more known for her KG. Tobirama was said to be the best water user in the world. It doesn't get any clearer than that.

[regii sanguinis]

tbh we don't really know how many signs she used, but the water dragon jutsu is the jutsu that requires the most hand signs, which is like 44, and tobirama lowered this down to one. Kisame doesn't have good water mastery, he just has a lot of chakra to dump behind his attacks. Mei is more known for her KG. Tobirama was said to be the best water user in the world. It doesn't get any clearer than that.

couldn't agree more.. i think Tobirama is best overall.. Kisame might be the most powerful in terms of strength of attacks but i think Mei has more refined skill in the mastery compared to him..

[Retsu]

I would agree with Mei being better at water than kisame

[kisamerox9]

tbh we don't really know how many signs she used, but the water dragon jutsu is the jutsu that requires the most hand signs, which is like 44, and tobirama lowered this down to one. Kisame doesn't have good water mastery, he just has a lot of chakra to dump behind his attacks. Mei is more known for her KG. Tobirama was said to be the best water user in the world. It doesn't get any clearer than that.

What do you mean Kisane doesn't have mastery in suiton. he created 6-7 original jutsu while Tobirama has made 1 to none. Sure h can creatr water from air but what else can he do. all hype

[Retsu]

What do you mean Kisane doesn't have mastery in suiton. he created 6-7 original jutsu while Tobirama has made 1 to none. Sure h can creatr water from air but what else can he do. all hype

Kisame isn't even really that good with water, he's more dangerous from absorbing an opponents chakra, tobirama can't be compared to any users, because he's had very little screen time, but kisame has nothing on tobirama when it comes to water, never have I seen anyone say anything about his water release, the only thing that makes him a threat is the fact that he can suck chakra, and his high reserves, other than that though he's nothing special. Even tobirama's part 1 anime fight had more impressive water release moves than kisame, all he does is over power ppl with his absurd chakra levels and leaching there chakra to heal.

if kisame couldn't absorb chakra his water release moves wouldn't really be deadly, while tobirama was said to be the best at it in the world, without cheap gimmicks such as chakra absorbing. ppl said hashirama was all hype last year and now look how powerful he is, and tobirama is his brother, who was said to be almost as strong. if that's the case, then tobirama would make kisame look like a novice in water release, and the only thing that could keep him alive is his chakra absorbtion.

[Shadow Abyss]

Not this again. People, please, for the last time.
Tobirama didn't create water out of thin air during his fight with Hiruzen. That was only in the anime.
Here are the sequence of techniques he used and you can clearly see the water coming out of his mouth just like Kisame does. Just open the spoiler tag.

See, the water is coming from his mouth, he is not pulling it out of air moisture or whatever you are saying. He is, indeed, making his own water, but from his mouth just like Kisame does.
By the way, there are many people that are expecting too much from Tobirama just because he happens to be Hashirama's brother. Having a familiar bond with a legendary character doesn't automaticaly Tobirama legendary as well. Familiar sucess doesn't equals strength.
We know too little from Tobirama's skills to say he is the strongest. So far Kisame outclasses him easily regarding water techniques, even if it is due to a lack of info on him and that may or may not change in the future, but until then he is nowhere near Kisame's level. And it is not his brother's strength that is going to make him a strong character, that must come from his own character.