LOLL Kishimoto proves Sarutobi's hype wrong, LMAO

[Zlad]

Please refrain from using the word fanboy. This is simply an intellectual conversation on two characters from the manga. No one is fanboying, and everyone is stating some kind of evidence to support their opinions. If you can't just have a conversation without name calling, just go elsewhere bro

I say whatever I want to whoever I want, so don't come here and tell me what to do. The word fanboy was meant to the OP because I already know he dislike Hiruzen and loves Hashirama more than anyone else.

[The Hidden Shinobi]

Hashirama > Hiruzen

Hiruzen < Hashirama

[★OnPoint]

Believing that Hiruzen can have God-like strength in wake of what Kabuto said about Shodai could be explained as followed;

A man (Hashirama) ran up the tallest mountain whilst carrying two buckets of lead. The people who heard of this believed it to be an over exaggerated myth and ultimately labelled it as down right malarkey. Years later, another man (Hiruzen) ran up the mountain, but this time carried eight buckets of lead. Yet the people found that this story was far more believable? That is essentially the kind of logic you express by arguing that Hiruzen's 'believable' strength can be greater than Hashirama's 'unbelievable' might.

[Owarij]

^ you DO realize kabuto said there were ninjas on hashirama's level who are dead?

[★OnPoint]

And how do you know Hiruzen was one of them? Based on what Iruka said? Because what Iruka said cannot stand with Kabuto's words.

[Owarij]

Based on everything that was said in the manga, Hiruzen Has to be one of them..
The reason I dont go around saying tenten is better than white fang until proven otherwise.. Is because I understand why a writer would use hype in the first place.. Kishi can't show everything in a manga... especially things not related to the main story line....We know white fang is stronger why? Because of the hype minato gave him.. which stated he was a genius on par with the Sannin

You can disregard all you like..You can go ahead and think that the ninjas Kabuto was talking about are currently unknown to us.... Because a ninja that strong would have slipped kishi's mind right?

[★OnPoint]

There is no disregarding. Kabuto claiming that Shodai's power and feats were doubted in the official VIZ scan [1] leaves Iruka's words immensely flawed. You cannot logically accept both statements as true. It's fallacious to claim that Hashirama can have mythical or unbelievable strength if this strength is inferior to Hiruzen's 'God-like' might which the masses had no problem accepting as accurate or true. This is a direct comparison between the two; the primary source of evidence that is used to illustrate Prime Hiruzen is no longer as sound as some people make out. This isn't the same as the White Fang. I'm not suggesting that Sarutobi is weak. I'm simply showing why Iruka's words are insignificant when such a contradictory statement is in play. This is evidence for a retcon on Kishimoto's part. He hasn't made Hiruzen weaker. He's made the First Hokage stronger, clearly. And that is exactly what Kabuto's statement indicates.

[Owarij]

Who exactly claimed hiruzen to be the strongest hokage? , Iruka spoke about hiruzen in the past tense....Villagers, Ninjas etc of hiruzen's era were the ones who considered him to be the strongest hokage...

Now the people who considered Hashirama's power a myth would be who? People who have never seen him fight right? I mean it would be insane to see a battle then completely disregard the reality of it afterwards.... Unfortunately to say, Many ninjas etc who existed in Hiruzen's time , would have most likely seen both Tobirama and Hashirama in combat..as their deaths weren't too far off from when Hiruzen took reign...I am speaking of jounins etc at that time and not Ninjas of the newer generation....

Of course as time passed, and people told stories of hashirama, People simply could not believe that someone could create a forest in an instant, or make a giant wooden dragon....All of Hashirama's abilities just seem grandieur , so grandieur that it came across as just a fable ..

This does not change the fact that during the time hiruzen was hokage.. There were ninjas like the Whitefang who existed who would have seen tobirama and hashirama, and yet still they all considered him to be the strongest hokage..why?

[Zlad]

Owarij VS Noddy, this shall be interesting.

[blackbird31468]

Funny part about that is.. Hashirama was way before Dan's time. lol. He was a jounin when Sarutobi was the Hokage ;p. And he had seen his prime. =3. :P:D

Failed logic. Just because you were around during that time period, that doesn't mean you saw him fight. That's like saying that Iruka has seen Naruto's BM because he was around during that time period.

[Owarij]

Failed logic. Just because you were around during that time period, that doesn't mean you saw him fight. That's like saying that Iruka has seen Naruto's BM because he was around during that time period.

Kinghashirama uses little logic.. doesn't realize, that madara was in complete hiding from the world and would have been like 80-90 +.. if he thinks he randomly ventured to look at the fights the current hokage was in ... then idk

[blackbird31468]

Kinghashirama uses little logic.. doesn't realize, that madara was in complete hiding from the world and would have been like 80-90 +.. if he thinks he randomly ventured to look at the fights the current hokage was in ... then idk

Dan probably wasn't even been born when Hashirama was fighting. And if he was, he would have been a baby. There's no way he would have been able to see either Hashirama or Hiruzen fighting in their prime to make a good assessment of who the stronger one is.

[Owarij]

Dan probably wasn't even been born when Hashirama was fighting. And if he was, he would have been a baby. There's no way he would have been able to see either Hashirama or Hiruzen fighting in their prime to make a good assessment of who the stronger one is.

Assuming dan was the same age as Tsunade.. at most he would have been 5......
This in conjecture as it's possible that dan could have be much older than tsunade

I'd like to assume she fell inlove with someone her age/ her generation

[★OnPoint]

You're acting under the premise that all the people who lived through Hiruzen's era were in agreement with the idea that he had 'superlative strength' compared to the Hokage. Nothing in the manga accurately details who thought what about the strongest Kage Konoha had ever produced. Infact, you can't even pinpoint the people who gave Hiruzen his title. Iruka's statement was ambiguous in the sense that the phrase 'he was said to be...' cannot be applied or restricted to a set number of people. Who knows, perhaps it was simply Hiruzen's former team mates and close associates Koharu & Homura who were lavishing the man with praise. You cannot say. And in all honesty, such a statement is nulled when it becomes apparent that many people possessed an inaccurate idea of Hashirama's ability - thus, their opinions regarding who they believe to be the strongest Hokage are instantly invalid. Why are you suggesting that the White Fang believed Hiruzen to be the strongest Hokage? Where is this canonically shown or implied? Jiraiya certainly seemed to think that Minato was the bees knees, despite being an actual disciple of Sarutobi's. This again points towards a lack of consistency in terms of project 'Prime Hiruzen' on Kishimoto's part.

Shodai lived in an era of war. It's not absurd to suggest that those who fought with him also died during the raging battles which were poisoning the shinobi world. Then there's the fact that there is no absolute timeline which can be referred to when discussing who said what and when. Hashirama's unbelievable strength is being shown and told through Madara, Obito, Yamato and Zetsu. It's only now coming to light, that his power allowed him to stand toe to toe with Perfect Susano'o. No-one witnessed VOTE. No-one could be sure if Hashirama was simply selling himself when describing how things went down. And that is why his stories became legends. That is why his might was disregarded as a myth like Rikudō himself.

Once Iruka's words are bypassed, what else in the manga highlights Hiruzen's superiority over all others? More hype? Nothing recent, with even his databook hype being binned from the 3rd edition. His feats? Certainly not in the wake of what the Mokuton wielders have shown.

[Owarij]

You're acting under the premise that all the people who lived through Hiruzen's era were in agreement with the idea that he had 'superlative strength' compared to the Hokage. Nothing in the manga accurately details who thought what about the strongest Kage Konoha had ever produced. Infact, you can't even pinpoint the people who gave Hiruzen his title. Iruka's statement was ambiguous in the sense that the phrase 'he was said to be...' cannot be applied or restricted to a set number of people. Who knows, perhaps it was simply Hiruzen's former team mates and close associates Koharu & Homura who were lavishing the man with praise. You cannot say. And in all honesty, such a statement is nulled when it becomes apparent that many people possessed an inaccurate idea of Hashirama's ability - thus, their opinions regarding who they believe to be the strongest Hokage are instantly invalid. Why are you suggesting that the White Fang believed Hiruzen to be the strongest Hokage? Where is this canonically shown or implied? Jiraiya certainly seemed to think that Minato was the bees knees, despite being an actual disciple of Sarutobi's. This again points towards a lack of consistency in terms of project 'Prime Hiruzen' on Kishimoto's part.

Shodai lived in an era of war. It's not absurd to suggest that those who fought with him also died during the raging battles which were poisoning the shinobi world. Then there's the fact that there is no absolute timeline which can be referred to when discussing who said what and when. Hashirama's unbelievable strength is being shown and told through Madara, Obito, Yamato and Zetsu. It's only now coming to light, that his power allowed him to stand toe to toe with Perfect Susano'o. No-one witnessed VOTE. No-one could be sure if Hashirama was simply selling himself when describing how things went down. And that is why his stories became legends. That is why he was disregarded as a myth like Rikudō himself.

Once Iruka's words are bypassed, what else in the manga highlights Hiruzen's superiority over all others? More hype? Nothing recent, with even his databook hype being binned from the 3rd edition. His feats? Certainly not in the wake of what the Mokuton wielders have shown.

Woah, I apologize if you got that idea from what I wrote, But I never meant to say White fang believed such a thing.. I just listed someone who would have been alive in hiruzens generation.. It is to show you that Iruka's statement holds weight simply because people Back then would have seen all 3 hokages in action.. regardless of if all of them agreed or not... I have seen noone.. literally noone who stated Hashirama was the strongest hokage... Seems weird doesn't it

Shodai lived in an era of war, but it's DEFINITELY not likely to believe that everyone who ever fought with him and against him died ...That's rediculous imo...He went ahead to create the village and join clans together.... the senju clan didn't die out until much later meaning there had to be people who saw him fight who was alive in Hiruzen's time...

If you're saying Onooki is the only person to survive from that war era, then idk what to say

The exact same scenario applies to your argument as well... Who are the people that thought his strength was a fairytail? It can't be everyone. This could be 2 or 3 people for all we know... Yamato from konoha is living proof Hashirama existed, he helped rebuild konoha.. who exactly still considers hashirama a myth?

[The Hidden Shinobi]

Hehe hiruzen minato itachi none of these mortals compare to hashi and madara some people are confused

Unless people want to tell me hiruzen is on the power level of edo madara hashirama bm naruto and nagato

[★OnPoint]

Woah, I apologize if you got that idea from what I wrote, But I never meant to say White fang believed such a thing.. I just listed someone who would have been alive in hiruzens generation.. It is to show you that Iruka's statement holds weight simply because people Back then would have seen all 3 hokages in action.. regardless of if all of them agreed or not... I have seen noone.. literally noone who stated Hashirama was the strongest hokage... Seems weird doesn't it

It can't hold weight if you're accepting what Kabuto stated. If people are doubting the ability of a particular candidate, or if they've been misinformed with regards to what that person is/was capable of, their assessments are lacking severely in validity. No-one stated Hashirama was the strongest because they thought his power was a myth. Just an old folk tale that seemed too absurd to be true [1]. That coupled with the idea that the Senju/Uchiha dominance was yet to take a prominent role in Kishimoto's manga. Notice the lack of symbols on the Senju brothers' armour [2]. That is no longer the case. Hashirama is, at this point, nothing more than a plot device - a man who needed to be portrayed as strong enough to fight Perfect Susano'o, the Kyūbi and the legendary figure of the Uchiha clan, Madara.

Shodai lived in an era of war, but it's DEFINITELY not likely to believe that everyone who ever fought with him and against him died ...That's rediculous imo...He went ahead to create the village and join clans together.... the senju clan didn't die out until much later meaning there had to be people who saw him fight who was alive in Hiruzen's time...

Lots of people would've died in these wars. If Hashirama himself succumbed to such battles, then it's likely that a significant number of fodder would've died along with him. His greatest feat was witness-less. And he didn't need to bring the entire Senju clan with him to battle, nor was he likely to have done so. It still follows that many (not all) who witnessed Shodai's power first hand in battle may've died whilst the Senju lineage remained preserved.

If you're saying Onooki is the only person to survive from that war era, then idk what to say

I said some of those who witnessed Hashirama fight could've passed away. Not everyone who fought in these wars would've seen Shodai in action, so clearly not everyone from these wars would've died in my scenario. Nothing in the manga even says that Ōnoki witnessed or knew about Hashirama's full strength. He clearly didn't because he knew not of Perfect Susano'o; you'd need to know what Perfect Susano'o is in order to fully grasp the immensity of Hashirama's strength.

The exact same scenario applies to your argument as well... Who are the people that thought his strength was a fairytail? It can't be everyone. This could be 2 or 3 people for all we know... Yamato from konoha is living proof Hashirama existed, he helped rebuild konoha.. who exactly still considers hashirama a myth?

Who are the people? Unknown. All that is known is that many people were unaware of his true power. 'many' was the word which was canonically used. The word many in itself could mean;

- Being one of a large indefinite number; numerous: many a child; many another day.
- Amounting to or consisting of a large indefinite number; many friends.
- The majority of the people; the masses; "The many fail, the one succeeds"

It wasn't Hashirama who was considered a myth. It was his strength that people did not believe in. "Just like they thought the Rikudō Sennin's power was also a fairytale" - Kabuto.

[Owarij]

It can't hold weight if you're accepting what Kabuto stated. If people are doubting the ability of a particular candidate, or if they've been misinformed with regards to what that person is/was capable of, their assessments are lacking severely in validity. No-one stated Hashirama was the strongest because they thought his power was a myth. Just an old folk tale that seemed too absurd to be true [1]. That coupled with the idea that the Senju/Uchiha dominance was yet to take a prominent role in Kishimoto's manga. Notice the lack of symbols on the Senju brothers' armour [2]. That is no longer the case. Hashirama is, at this point, nothing more than a plot device - a man who needed to be portrayed as strong enough to fight Perfect Susano'o, the Kyūbi and the legendary figure of the Uchiha clan, Madara.



Lots of people would've died in these wars. If Hashirama himself succumbed to such battles, then it's likely that a significant number of fodder would've died along with him. His greatest feat was witness-less. And he didn't need to bring the entire Senju clan with him to battle, nor was he likely to have done so. It still follows that many (not all) who witnessed Shodai's power first hand in battle may've died whilst the Senju lineage remained preserved.



I said some of those who witnessed Hashirama fight could've passed away. Not everyone who fought in these wars would've seen Shodai in action, so clearly not everyone from these wars would've died in my scenario. Nothing in the manga even says that Ōnoki witnessed or knew about Hashirama's full strength. He clearly didn't because he knew not of Perfect Susano'o; you'd need to know what Perfect Susano'o is in order to fully grasp the immensity of Hashirama's strength.



Who are the people? Unknown. All that is known is that many people were unaware of his true power. 'many' was the word which was canonically used. The word many in itself could mean;

- Being one of a large indefinite number; numerous: many a child; many another day.
- Amounting to or consisting of a large indefinite number; many friends.
- The majority of the people; the masses; "The many fail, the one succeeds"

It wasn't Hashirama who was considered a myth. It was his strength that people did not believe in. "Just like they thought the Rikudō Sennin's power was also a fairytale" - Kabuto.

No, it's specifically stated that Hashirama himself was considered a myth.. like the rikkudo sennin..
Meaning, there are people who don't think he existed, At all...

who would think that? as i said, only people of the younger generation

brb will edit post later

[Strict]

Im with Noody at this one. It's apparent that Kishimoto made Hiruzen out to be the strongest Hokage at a time where the Senju didn't play a major role. As you said by yourself, Orochimarus Edo Tensei was indeed perfected, Hashirama fought with the techniques and the power scale Kishimoto awarded him at this time. Hiruzen was known for his mastery of all arts and techniques of Konoha, yet the Senjus were known for their mastery of all arts and one thousand Jutsu. Hashirama, the strongest Senju of all, didn't only was hyped for this, he was also in the possession of the scroll which includes Konohas techniques, too, and possesses on top of that medical skills which are far above Tsunades level and the mot powerful Kekkei Genkai.

Owarij, at some point you should stop this fanboyism. Look on how both were portrayed in part 2 of the series. Hashirama, the most powerful Shinobi no one was able to compare with after his time, a power great enough that everyone in the series is seeking for, whether Madara or Orochimaru. A power which, according to Madara, exceeds those of the five Kage together by far. Madara at his current stage cannot stop riding his dick. Hiruzen however is no one in part 2 of the series, wasn't portrayed for his great strength only one time. Or don't you think that someone, at least one would mention a Shinobi, who had an even greater strength than thi fairy tale strength? No, no one is playing a role when it comes to Hashirama.

[★OnPoint]

[COLOR="yellowgreen]
No, it's specifically stated that Hashirama himself was considered a myth.. like the rikkudo sennin..
Meaning, there are people who don't think he existed, At all...

who would think that? as i said, only people of the younger generation

brb will edit post later
[/COLOR]

Not in the official VIZ scan.



Even in the scan you provided, there is an element of his strength being mythical, not his actual existence.

[Owarij]

Im with Noody at this one. It's apparent that Kishimoto made Hiruzen out to be the strongest Hokage at a time where the Senju didn't play a major role. As you said by yourself, Orochimarus Edo Tensei was indeed perfected, Hashirama fought with the techniques and the power scale Kishimoto awarded him at this time. Hiruzen was known for his mastery of all arts and techniques of Konoha, yet the Senjus were known for their mastery of all arts and one thousand Jutsu. Hashirama, the strongest Senju of all, didn't only was hyped for this, he was also in the possession of the scroll which includes Konohas techniques, too, and possesses on top of that medical skills which are far above Tsunades level and the mot powerful Kekkei Genkai.

Owarij, at some point you should stop this fanboyism. Look on how both were portrayed in part 2 of the series. Hashirama, the most powerful Shinobi no one was able to compare with after his time, a power great enough that everyone in the series is seeking for, whether Madara or Orochimaru. A power which, according to Madara, exceeds those of the five Kage together by far. Madara at his current stage cannot stop riding his dick. Hiruzen however is no one in part 2 of the series, wasn't portrayed for his great strength only one time. Or don't you think that someone, at least one would mention a Shinobi, who had an even greater strength than thi fairy tale strength? No, no one is playing a role when it comes to Hashirama.

In no way am I denying that Hashirama is stronger than hiruzen... his abiltiies are on a severly larger scale... what I am arguing is that despite that fact, hiruzen can still defeat him, mostly due to his knowledge of his abilities and ability to counter them

[Strict]

In no way am I denying that Hashirama is stronger than hiruzen... his abiltiies are on a severly larger scale... what I am arguing is that despite that fact, hiruzen can still defeat him, mostly due to his knowledge of his abilities and ability to counter them

Due to the many fights Madara had with Hashirama, he still had to be aware of what comes to him when facing Konoha with Kurama. Madara knew about Hashiramas abilities and faced him with his EMS, perfect Susanoo and Kurama and yet Hashirama handled Kurama and made Madara realize, that the EMS cannot beat him. Madaras current statements just confirm this. Ask yourself from where Hiruzen had his techniques. He was taught by Hashirama, the techniques he possesses he learned largely from Hashirama, the knowledge about the techniques of Konoha also came from Hashirama. Hashirama is too heavy for Hiruzen. While he could keep up with Hashirama and the same mastery of all arts and thousand Jutsus hype, I don't see him in any way surpassing the Mokuton on such a scale and medical skills which exceeds Hashiramas. Knowledge is only half a thing.

[Hachidaime Hokage]

Whatever the case, Hashirama is still the First Hokage, Sarutobi will still be the Third and Madara will remain a Power Hungry Uchiha...!

[LegendaryAce]

There is manga panels that show have proven Hiruzen is the strongest Hokage, and you have nothing. Come back with a manga panel with the proof that he was the strongest Hokage at all time, and not at his era.

I'm done because this is like a wall, you can't go any ways with fanboys.

When Did I ever say anything about the strongest hokage

Also strongest hokage can mean alot of things .. It probably won't mean he can beat every hokage also
He was said to be the strongest hokage
By who?
How does the person know?
Did they see all the other hokages?
Unless its madara judging since he lived through all 3s primes then is understand but the person/people who called him that most proberbly were from his reign and look at noddys comment

[LegendaryAce]

hiruzen > hashirama people got confused due to the stupidity of kishimoto trolling orochimaru against itachi. thats why since 13 y/o itachi>orochimaru as we seen by feats. people concluded that
orochimaru>hiruzen
itachi>>>hiruzen
nagato>>>>>>>hiruzen
tobi>>>>>hiruzen
madara>>>nagato or itachi
hashirama>=madara
therefore
hashirama>hiruzen
edo hashirama got excuse by fanboys that it was a mindless puppets.

look at madara if it wasnt for edo and renigan upgrade he died plenty of times first was when a clone naruto + gaara. then tsunade punch him which separate his chest to his body

maybe that fight against itachi by orochimaru was he was sick like when he tried to takeover sasuke or the only way to get itachi's body is through genjutsu which itachi excels thats why he was raped!

If you can tell the difference between madara and hashirama the. You either can't read the manga or plain missed something

Edo madara - had free will to do whatever he wanted that's the reason he got himself out of Edo tensei
Hashirama - limited to what Orochimaru wanted him to do

Proof: kabuto says he used different tags giving his puppets controll over them due to the fact that they can mess up people's feelings

If hashirama and Tobirama were summon by kabuto like madara chances are Tobirama could get himself and his bro from it and then you can't controll them ..


Also hiruzen was being "raped" till he said there's no other way - and he used a suicide tech

Im not going to reply to any of those that have quoted me. Im not getting too involved in this fracas. Anyway kishi did proof Hiruzen's hype. Before the fight against orochimaru, he was claimed the strongest, that was just hype. However kishi have this hype feats when he matched the previous hokage's against hiruzen and Hiruzen beat them and died in the middle of sealing orochimaru. Kishi has backed this hype up when hiruzen was pitted against the former kage's.

Now im not saying that hiruzen in his prime/old age can defeat 2 hokage's because at that time the two hokage's were tools to orochimaru and tools are only as effective as the wielder. Still cannon that though the hokage's were being controlled and due to this were limited the same can be said about hiruzen.

We can to an extent speculate that, that fight was a watered down version if they were at their primes. The disadvantage to the previous hokage's was that they were controlled by somebody who didnt use them to their fullest capabilities. Possible because orochimaru himself didnt know what they could do. The disadvantage to hiruzen was that he was in his old age, his speed, chakra and strength has all decreased. The second disadvantage is that unlike hiruzen, the previous hokage's were in their youth, i suppose at the time of death, they had infinite chakra and their strength was still there. Add to this it was 2 vs 1. Hiruzen was at the disadvantage in that fight and still prevailed though at the cost of his life.

There is a reason why after Hiruzen got this hype, he was pitted against the 2 previous hokage's. That to me isn't a coincidence but rather kishi giving this hype, feat

Hiruzen was a perfect counter for Orochimaru and Edos why because of drs
Minato would probably have done better
My point being that it was all because of drs without that he would have died since he gave up