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  1. #21
    Savior Of The World MickNerks's Avatar
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    Re: Confirmed, non-debatable FACTS; that are still denied by some......

    I completely agree. Especially what you said about hiruzen and itachi's susanoo.

    In his prime Hiruzen was the strongest shinobi to ever live.

    And with the Yata no Kagami for defense, Totsuka no Tsurugi for offense itachi w/ susanoo is invincible.

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  2. #22
    Asutoraruimajinēshon HadouKage's Avatar
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    Re: Confirmed, non-debatable FACTS; that are still denied by some......

    Quote Originally Posted by MickNerks View Post
    I completely agree. Especially what you said about hiruzen and itachi's susanoo.

    In his prime Hiruzen was the strongest shinobi to ever live.

    And with the Yata no Kagami for defense, Totsuka no Tsurugi for offense itachi w/ susanoo is invincible.

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    Wish we had manga fact of this, anybody have where Kishi stated that he was the greatest ninja of his time?
     
         

  3. #23
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    Re: Confirmed, non-debatable FACTS; that are still denied by some......

    Quote Originally Posted by Bogard View Post
    I disagree with this. Eventhough Black Zetsu was created by Madara, he said it was much more weaker, and they don't seem to share consciousness since Madara asked to Obito what happened to Nagato, when we know that Black Zetsu normally should know what happened, like he asked also what happened since he was dead, something that black Zetsu should know. Also, Black Zetsu seeems not to even know Susanoo when he says "what's this?"



    How could he not know Susanoo if he is Madaras consciousness? Like he didn't even knew Susanoo carries a lot of risks:


    How can't he know that if he is Madara's consciousness?

    Either they don't share consciousness like i think it's is, or simply Kishimoto messed up and didn't think about it back then

    It was white Zetsu that asked what it was. Black Zetsu's words could be loosely translated.

    In the anime, which is the closest accurate translation of the manga, black Zetsu, upon seeing Susanoo says, "this is...."


    What more can you question after Madara himself put his hand on Zetsu and transferred his will on to him? I said he was a form of his consciousness, meaning, he has his personality, knowledge, attitude and desires, obviously they aren't telepathically linked over the living world and the after life.......
     
         

  4. #24
    Shisui Namikaze's Avatar
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    Re: Confirmed, non-debatable FACTS; that are still denied by some......

    For number 2. Zetsu also said that it was impossible to break out of tsukiyomi without have your own ms. But sasuke did it with a base sharingan. So your statement is invalid and that's where I stopped reading.
     
         

  5. #25
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    Re: Confirmed, non-debatable FACTS; that are still denied by some......

    "This Susanoo is destruction-incarnate, everyone who has seen it, has died."
    I suppose Madara was right about everyone who has seen it has died, but if Tsunade heals the kage, then it will no longer be true.

    "Yata no Kagami for defense, Totsuka no Tsurugi for offense, he is invincible".
    The actual weilder of the tools also acknowledges that every move has a weakness. For the record, Itachi is as smart as Madara is cocky. In this case it's space time in general, and both versions of kamui in particular. They ignore defence and hit the target anyways. Also, the shield is a shield and not armor. It doesn't protect the entire susanoo, so the susanoo would still be vulnerable to attacks from behind. Also, dark swamp and other attacks from below should be able to best the user. Poison gas might also be able to work. I doubt susanoo is air tight, or else the user would suffocate.

    "I told you not to open your mouth so easily! You're just words and no actions, what someone like you says is worth nothing!"
    I think this is the reason Kakashi rarely makes promises anymore. No matter what he does, something always goes horribly wrong.

    "He was known as the God of shinobi!"
    Yes, Kishi decided to change his mind here, but going from what we've seen and you said, Hiruzen is the stronger Hokage. Also, I don't think Madara was active anymore as a shinobi during his prime to witness it.

    Edo Madara is the strongest being!
    Probably, on account of being immortal. BM Naruto is more powerful than he is, but has no answer for his immortality and the fact that he now packs Hashi's anti-bijuu techs doesn't help either. There are others who can force him to regenerate, but they hit the same problem. The closest things I can think of for counters are Itachi(totsuka), Obito/kakashi(extremely hard to dodge kamui), and Minato (speed blitz with reaper death seal, and call it a draw). Maybe Hiruzen for the same reason as Minato, but lower speed hurts him. If Madara is around long enough to learn the rest of his rinnegan arsenal and becomes the juubi jinchuriki, they're just plain screwed.
     
         

  6. #26
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    Re: Confirmed, non-debatable FACTS; that are still denied by some......

    First tell me How to add that 'show' button in a thread you dumbasses!!
     
         

  7. #27
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    Re: Confirmed, non-debatable FACTS; that are still denied by some......

    Quote Originally Posted by iSpeak the Truth View Post
    It was white Zetsu that asked what it was. Black Zetsu's words could be loosely translated.
    My pic says otherwise unless you can show me a proof concerning it?
    In the anime, which is the closest accurate translation of the manga, black Zetsu, upon seeing Susanoo says, "this is...."
    Anime are fillers. The anime gave "Bringer of Darkness" to Tobirama, a jutsu used by Hashirama in the manga, and that's just one of the bunch of BS i can see in the anime
    What more can you question after Madara himself put his hand on Zetsu and transferred his will on to him? I said he was a form of his consciousness, meaning, he has his personality, knowledge, attitude and desires, obviously they aren't telepathically linked over the living world and the after life.......
    Like he also said white Zetsus are Hashirama's clones, yet they didn't know Susanoo? Also, you didn't answered my other question. How could Black Zetsu not know that Susanoo carries a lot of risk, if he has Madara's consciousness?
     
         

  8. #28
    In detention iSpeak the Truth's Avatar
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    Re: Confirmed, non-debatable FACTS; that are still denied by some......

    Quote Originally Posted by Shisui Namikaze View Post
    For number 2. Zetsu also said that it was impossible to break out of tsukiyomi without have your own ms. But sasuke did it with a base sharingan. So your statement is invalid and that's where I stopped reading.
    White Zetsu said that......so lol!
     
         

  9. #29
    Savior Of The World MickNerks's Avatar
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    Re: Confirmed, non-debatable FACTS; that are still denied by some......

    Quote Originally Posted by HadouKage View Post
    Wish we had manga fact of this, anybody have where Kishi stated that he was the greatest ninja of his time?
    The manga states that Hashirama was only the strongest ninja of his Era or Time
    The manga states the Hiruzen in his Prime was the strongest shinobi to ever live.

    Its not hard the see who kishi thinks is stronger.
     
         

  10. #30
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    Re: Confirmed, non-debatable FACTS; that are still denied by some......

    Quote Originally Posted by iSpeak the Truth View Post
    White Zetsu said that......so lol!
    -__________-
     
         

  11. #31
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    Re: Confirmed, non-debatable FACTS; that are still denied by some......

    There are loads of statements in the manga that contradict each other. You should take them with a pinch of salt.
     
         

  12. #32
    Lord Orochimaru blazekev90's Avatar
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    Re: Confirmed, non-debatable FACTS; that are still denied by some......

    Edo Madara is nothing more than a tool, it's Kabuto fault for not taking complete control over his body. Now it's all up to Orochimaru to do this correctly.
     
         

  13. #33
    Logical Kakashi fanboy Takos's Avatar
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    Re: Confirmed, non-debatable FACTS; that are still denied by some......

    Quote Originally Posted by iSpeak the Truth View Post
    Explain to me how someone beats this combination?
    Simply by waiting for Itachi to exhaust himself. Susanoo drains a freaking lot of him. It's not like he can use Totsuka all the time and you cannot avoid it - if that was so, then he would have used Totsuka on the very beginning against Nagato (who was immobile, making it so much easier to catch him with Totsuka).
     
         

  14. #34
    In detention iSpeak the Truth's Avatar
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    Re: Confirmed, non-debatable FACTS; that are still denied by some......

    Quote Originally Posted by Bogard View Post
    My pic says otherwise unless you can show me a proof concerning it?
    Anime are fillers. The anime gave "Bringer of Darkness" to Tobirama, a jutsu used by Hashirama in the manga, and that's just one of the bunch of BS i can see in the anime

    Like he also said white Zetsus are Hashirama's clones, yet they didn't know Susanoo? Also, you didn't answered my other question. How could Black Zetsu not know that Susanoo carries a lot of risk, if he has Madara's consciousness?
    I said the translation is accurate, not the events, and only some of them anyway.

    What white Zetsu says is not bolded in black with the wierd font, that's black Zetsu talking, the other is white Zetsu. See it now?
     
         

  15. #35
    Shisui Namikaze's Avatar
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    Re: Confirmed, non-debatable FACTS; that are still denied by some......

    Quote Originally Posted by Takos View Post
    Simply by waiting for Itachi to exhaust himself. Susanoo drains a freaking lot of him. It's not like he can use Totsuka all the time and you cannot avoid it - if that was so, then he would have used Totsuka on the very beginning against Nagato (who was immobile, making it so much easier to catch him with Totsuka).
    Edit. Susanoo drains the users life force. That's a bit more intense.
     
         

  16. #36
    Logical Kakashi fanboy Takos's Avatar
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    Re: Confirmed, non-debatable FACTS; that are still denied by some......

    Quote Originally Posted by Shisui Namikaze View Post
    Edit. Susanoo drains the users life force. That's a bit more intense.
    Well... Susanoo is a double-edged sword.
    Itachi fans overrate Susanoo as hell. It's the absolute last resort for Itachi and even if he uses it, he will collapse soon afterwards. Yet people think that non-edo Itachi would bring up Susanoo on the beginning of the fight and automatically stomp anyone with Totsuka. So wrong.

    This is the same in case of Sasuke. His eyesight was deteriorating but slowly. Probably similar to how Kakashi's sight was getting worse.
    Once he formed full Susanoo, though, he went half-blind almost right away.
     
         

  17. #37
    In detention iSpeak the Truth's Avatar
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    Re: Confirmed, non-debatable FACTS; that are still denied by some......

    Quote Originally Posted by Takos View Post
    Simply by waiting for Itachi to exhaust himself. Susanoo drains a freaking lot of him. It's not like he can use Totsuka all the time and you cannot avoid it - if that was so, then he would have used Totsuka on the very beginning against Nagato (who was immobile, making it so much easier to catch him with Totsuka).
    So if Sasuke had waited for Danzo to exhaust himself with Izanagi, he would have beaten him? No, Danzo would have released his jutsu.

    In the same sense, Itachi can withdraw his Susanoo whenever he wants. You are also underestimating the speed of Susanoo. Remember Sasuke's arrows? No one ever dodged them without sage modes threat perception.

    Itachi got Nagato with the very first and last strike of Totsuka.
     
         

  18. #38
    Rising T Bogard's Avatar
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    Re: Confirmed, non-debatable FACTS; that are still denied by some......

    Quote Originally Posted by iSpeak the Truth View Post
    I said the translation is accurate, not the events, and only some of them anyway.
    Ok, if you admit it's accurate, isn't that the proof that either Black Zetsu and Madara don't share consciousness or simply Kishimoto didn't even knew what he would be doing back then? Like Blaze Release said, there are loads of statements in the manga that contradict each other. You should take them with a pinch of salt

    What white Zetsu says is not bolded in black with the wierd font, that's black Zetsu talking, the other is white Zetsu. See it now?
    Ok i see, but what is your proof that it's not actually the contrary?
     
         

  19. #39
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    Re: Confirmed, non-debatable FACTS; that are still denied by some......

    Quote Originally Posted by Bogard View Post
    Ok, if you admit it's accurate, isn't that the proof that either Black Zetsu and Madara don't share consciousness or simply Kishimoto didn't even knew what he would be doing back then? Like Blaze Release said, there are loads of statements in the manga that contradict each other. You should take them with a pinch of salt

    Ok i see, but what is your proof that it's not actually the contrary?
    These are Madaras words as he pours his will inside Zetsu: "I put my will inside this.......consider it as though half of it is me."

    And are you freaking kidding me?
     
         

  20. #40
    Logical Kakashi fanboy Takos's Avatar
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    Re: Confirmed, non-debatable FACTS; that are still denied by some......

    Quote Originally Posted by iSpeak the Truth View Post
    So if Sasuke had waited for Danzo to exhaust himself with Izanagi, he would have beaten him? No, Danzo would have released his jutsu.
    What does Izanagi has to do with Susanoo?

    In the same sense, Itachi can withdraw his Susanoo whenever he wants. You are also underestimating the speed of Susanoo.
    He can withdraw it when he wants. But you know, Susanoo drain is not hours long. It's minutes if not seconds, at least for Itachi. How long do you think Itachi can keep on withdrawing and casting Susanoo back and forth before he is exhausted?
    Also, arrows are not used by Itachi's Susanoo.

    Itachi got Nagato with the very first and last strike of Totsuka.
    Yeah, but this very first and last strike of Totsuka was performed after a long battle. If Totsuka could be used earlier, Itachi obviously WOULD have used it earlier.

    Quote Originally Posted by iSpeak the Truth View Post
    These are Madaras words as he pours his will inside Zetsu: "I put my will inside this.......consider it as though half of it is me."

    And are you freaking kidding me?
    Will and conciousness is not the same. Black Zetsu is Madara'ish, but it doesn't mean he's Madara.
     
         

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