Confirmed, non-debatable FACTS; that are still denied by some......

[Retsu]

Kakashi said sharingan came from byakugan in part 1, yet in part two the uchiha are revealed to be direct descendants of the sage himself, a lot of those"facts" may simply be character opinion, few of them really aren't debatable

[Gingka Uzumaki]

Hiruzen was alive, Hashirama wasn't.

Kishimoto wasn't bout to blast out his secret for some old man. Hashirama would be beat Hiruzen, Naruto would beat Hiruzen.

[Piratefish]

Obviously, you never heard of reaching a middle ground. Sure you could change anything with setting biased conditions.

Wait, which one of us is arguing that NOTHING, EVER, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES could get through Itachi's defenses?

Oh, it's still you.

A middle ground is a compromise. You're the one arguing on the side which states that THERE IS NO COMPOMISE regarding these matters.

EDIT: If i set the biased conditions of Itachi being buried upside-down with his feet up, you have stated that Itachi is invincible, as long as Susano'o is active. So in this position, Gai using the Death Gate version of Hirudora (Midnight Dragon?) wouldn't even ruffle his hair, according to you.

Sorry, it's just that hypocrisy, logical inconsistency AND stupidity COMBINED tend to make me cranky.

[Sexy Steel]

nice thread i agree

[Gatsuuga]

Itachi isn't invincible if someone attacks from the floor. I can think of a couple of people that could do this, i.e. gaara, naruto (chakra arms), kabuto (already killed itachi that way), deidara (c4 or land mines), etc.

Those are just a few off the top of my head that could easily exploit the fact yata only blocks in one direction and not at all from beneath. Also it's not like totsuka can't be dodged - so far it has only ever hit people that were completely stationary.

[Piratefish]

Itachi isn't invincible if someone attacks from the floor. I can think of a couple of people that could do this, i.e. gaara, naruto (chakra arms), kabuto (already killed itachi that way), deidara (c4 or land mines), etc.

Those are just a few off the top of my head that could easily exploit the fact yata only blocks in one direction and not at all from beneath. Also it's not like totsuka can't be dodged - so far it has only ever hit people that were completely stationary.

Sense, at last!

[Gatsuuga]

Sense, at last!

I'll also add the fact that there is significant time delay between when the sword hits and when the person is sealed. During this time the sword has to manifest physically (otherwise how does it pierce) so is vulnerable to being destroyed or snapped.

But ultimately itachi super sword logically can get trolled by a substitution jutsu, which if you see a giant chakra cloak with swords appearing you would ready. By the time itachi had susanoo'ed attempted a seal and failed he would probably be out of chakra and therefore not have access to the weapons anymore.

[Killer B]

SO6P > Edo Madara

[l3m0npl3dg3]

I mean whats the argument hiruzen beat hashirama head up with tobirama do i think it was legit no considering all the first and seconds abilities but a win is a win he beat his former masters

[Words of wisdom]

I disagree with this. Eventhough Black Zetsu was created by Madara, he said it was much more weaker, and they don't seem to share consciousness since Madara asked to Obito what happened to Nagato, when we know that Black Zetsu normally should know what happened, like he asked also what happened since he was dead, something that black Zetsu should know. Also, Black Zetsu seeems not to even know Susanoo when he says "what's this?"



How could he not know Susanoo if he is Madaras consciousness? Like he didn't even knew Susanoo carries a lot of risks:


How can't he know that if he is Madara's consciousness?

Either they don't share consciousness like i think it's is, or simply Kishimoto messed up and didn't think about it back then

That was white zetsu speaking he said "whtas this" cuase whenever black zetsu speaks they use a different font type

[ROSH2]

bigger they are harder they fall

[a banned cartoon]

"This Susanoo is destruction-incarnate, everyone who has seen it, has died."

This proves Uchiha Madara had the Perfect Susanoo long before he attained the Rinnegan, hence...his EMS version is all that he needs to stabilise and Perfect his Susanoo.


"Yata no Kagami for defense, Totsuka no Tsurugi for offense, he is invincible".

Black Zetsu, the will of Uchiha Madara himself, who pertains all of his knowledge and original decisions, deemed the combination of those two weapons as invincible, hence.....the bearer of those weapons is invincible.


"I told you not to open your mouth so easily! You're just words and no actions, what someone like you says is worth nothing!"

Yes he has a great personality, yes he tries his very best, yes he is loyal to his village and yes.....he is super smart and elite! That still doesn't change the fact that Kakashi has never kept his word or promises, whether due to extremely bad luck, hesitation or pure lack of chance......Kakashi's words are not worth much.


"He was known as the God of shinobi!"

Even though we haven't seen it, and many people don't want to believe it, Sarutobi Hiruzen, in his prime, was the strongest shinobi to have ever lived. I have put this fact here because Kishimoto himself has confirmed it and it is certainly believable seeing that a 70 year old Hiruzen who had lost most of his strength and chakra to his old age, sealed away 2 former Hokage, Senju Hashirama and Senju Tobirama, took away all of Orochimaru's jutsu, putting a dent in his plans for years, and leaving him whimpering and screaming like a child, at 70! Edo Madara is not included in this because he is just a soul wrapped in dust and earth and not a living breathing human.


Edo Madara is the strongest being!

Whether living or dead, natural or abnormal, he has unlimited chakra, an indestructible and regenerative exterior, Mokuton, EMS, Rinnegan, Perfect Susanoo, years upon years of battle experience........Edo Madara is the strongest thus far and there is no denying it!

All I had to do to brake this thread down is read the first statement. Then Hashirama would've saw it, and not die.

[Jukain]

pretty nice but not all of them are true. The 3rd hokage can be beaten by nagato, cureent naruto, Hashi, Obito, Madara. Who knows maybe even DSM Kabuto itachi and Minato can too

And can Itachis susanoo survive Nagatos CT or Chou Shinra tensei or Madaras pull....no cause the shield does not cover 360

[iSpeak the Truth -in detention-]

All I had to do to brake this thread down is read the first statement. Then Hashirama would've saw it, and not die.

Like I said, Hashirama has seen Perfect Susanoo...and he is also dead. That doesn't mean he died from Perfect Susanoo.

pretty nice but not all of them are true. The 3rd hokage can be beaten by nagato, cureent naruto, Hashi, Obito, Madara. Who knows maybe even DSM Kabuto itachi and Minato can too

And can Itachis susanoo survive Nagatos CT or Chou Shinra tensei or Madaras pull....no cause the shield does not cover 360

Well who wouldn't agree with him losing to a Rinnegan? And the rest of your ninja, all came after his time....

Hiruzen had already established himself as God of shinobi and the strongest Hokage in his younger days! Only EMS Madara and Hashirama can be included.

[Jukain]

Like I said, Hashirama has seen Perfect Susanoo...and he is also dead. That doesn't mean he died from Perfect Susanoo.



Well who wouldn't agree with him losing to a Rinnegan? And the rest of your ninja, all came after his time....

Hiruzen had already established himself as God of shinobi and the strongest Hokage in his younger days! Only EMS Madara and Hashirama can be included.

Ok i guess that makes sense

[Hikari Uchiha Senju]

@OP: I agree with you on every fact :D + rep

[LordHokage22]

good stuff!

[Expulso]

All of this ARE debatable. FAIL thread.

[~Sovereign~]

"This Susanoo is destruction-incarnate, everyone who has seen it, has died."

This proves Uchiha Madara had the Perfect Susanoo long before he attained the Rinnegan, hence...his EMS version is all that he needs to stabilise and Perfect his Susanoo.


"Yata no Kagami for defense, Totsuka no Tsurugi for offense, he is invincible".

Black Zetsu, the will of Uchiha Madara himself, who pertains all of his knowledge and original decisions, deemed the combination of those two weapons as invincible, hence.....the bearer of those weapons is invincible.


"I told you not to open your mouth so easily! You're just words and no actions, what someone like you says is worth nothing!"

Yes he has a great personality, yes he tries his very best, yes he is loyal to his village and yes.....he is super smart and elite! That still doesn't change the fact that Kakashi has never kept his word or promises, whether due to extremely bad luck, hesitation or pure lack of chance......Kakashi's words are not worth much.


"He was known as the God of shinobi!"

Even though we haven't seen it, and many people don't want to believe it, Sarutobi Hiruzen, in his prime, was the strongest shinobi to have ever lived. I have put this fact here because Kishimoto himself has confirmed it and it is certainly believable seeing that a 70 year old Hiruzen who had lost most of his strength and chakra to his old age, sealed away 2 former Hokage, Senju Hashirama and Senju Tobirama, took away all of Orochimaru's jutsu, putting a dent in his plans for years, and leaving him whimpering and screaming like a child, at 70! Edo Madara is not included in this because he is just a soul wrapped in dust and earth and not a living breathing human.


Edo Madara is the strongest being!

Whether living or dead, natural or abnormal, he has unlimited chakra, an indestructible and regenerative exterior, Mokuton, EMS, Rinnegan, Perfect Susanoo, years upon years of battle experience........Edo Madara is the strongest thus far and there is no denying it!

everyone that sees susano dies....no

raikage, oonoki, mei, gaara, naruto, killer bee, gai, kakashi, atm tsunade, kabuto, AND oro have all seen susano and are still alive

[iSpeak the Truth -in detention-]

everyone that sees susano dies....no

raikage, oonoki, mei, gaara, naruto, killer bee, gai, kakashi, atm tsunade, kabuto, AND oro have all seen susano and are still alive

It was said in past tense.

[lIlIlIl]

everyone that sees susano dies....no

raikage, oonoki, mei, gaara, naruto, killer bee, gai, kakashi, atm tsunade, kabuto, AND oro have all seen susano and are still alive

madara was talking about perfect susano

[Piratefish]

I'll also add the fact that there is significant time delay between when the sword hits and when the person is sealed. During this time the sword has to manifest physically (otherwise how does it pierce) so is vulnerable to being destroyed or snapped.

But ultimately itachi super sword logically can get trolled by a substitution jutsu, which if you see a giant chakra cloak with swords appearing you would ready. By the time itachi had susanoo'ed attempted a seal and failed he would probably be out of chakra and therefore not have access to the weapons anymore.

It also has no real range, and in combination with Susanao'o's lack of mobility that's a MAJOR disadvantage. I see SASUKE having the advantage in a Susano'o fight, if anything, purely because he could legitimately disengage his giant spectre thing, Shunshin as far away as he can for a second or two, and re-engage it, letting rip everything he's got. Itachi can't follow (at least not for long) in the same way and not JUST because of the arrows and Enton and whatnot heading his way. He can't maintain Susano'o for long, and flicking it on and off like that would probably kill him through exhaustion alone pretty fast. Also, not sure if Sasuke is capable of sending a full-on WALL of Enton his way, in which case the Shield might not block it ALL anyway.

[Shodaime Swagkage]

This is really, really good. But that ain't stopping the fanboys.

[straightup]

Dude you really need to learn the difference between fact and opinion. Facts can be measured. Even though data leads to these things being true they are still opinion until true measurable fact can be used

[Namikaze Haru]

@ lIlIlIl

Shut up u fool. If anyone is hyped, it's hiruzen...accept facts and not hype?

I'll tell u some facts...

Hashirama beat Madara, the same person who just hand the 5 kages assess to them. Hiruzen prob can't even beat them in a 1v1

Minato beat Obito and then managed to seal kurama, what did hiruzen do? Oh Yh tell everyone to wait for Minato.

There are so many people that can beat hiruzen.

Madara
Hashirama
Sasuke
Naruto
Minato
Itachi
Obito
Nagato
Onoki
A
Killer bee
Kakashi
Tobirama
Even Guy and the 3 Sannin could beat him